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Traveling Europe: Advice?
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Alright, so my girl and I are thinking of going to Europe, more or less for the first time. (She's been there before and grew up in the Middle East, but that was a long time ago.)
One question we had was about driving. Everyone tells us not to drive in Europe; taking the train/flying is cool, but we kinda like/wanted to stop in towns and such along the way and be able to stay in places that we liked. Renting a car isn't that pricey; the gas is expensive, but on the other hand your distances aren't as far as what I'm used to driving in Canada.
The tentative itinerary was thus:
1. Couple-day stop in Reykjavik, Iceland on the flight over (just as a little bonus)
2. Land in Frankfurt, Germany.
From here it gets nebulous.
The original plan was to rent a car in Milan, drive to Lauterbrunnen, Switzerland, then drive to Munich, then drive to Vienna, then drive to Venice, then perhaps Florence (maybe to Rome), and then complete the circle back up to Milan in order to drop the car off. Total time: give or take 3 weeks.
Then a cheap flight to Reykjavik was found, and we thought it would be cool to visit Iceland for a couple days. So now we land in Frankfurt. We could fly to Milan, but that seems slightly redundant to then be driving back up to Munich.
Does this seem doable to anyone? Any thoughts on the driving issue? Everyone I know who's been to Europe keep telling me don't even think about driving, but then when I ask why the answer is "because"....
greg
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I'm gonna put it bluntly: **** driving. Just forget it.
If you hit the wrong day (because some province of some country happens to have school holiday opening weekend or so), you will easily spend a day in the massive traffic jam crossing the alps to Italy.
Also, all countries except Germany have a toll system for their highways.
DO NOT DRIVE ACROSS EUROPE UNLESS YOU'RE THINKING OF RENTING A CAMPER VAN.
Trains are fast, frequent, comfortable, clean, and EVERYWHERE. If you must, rent a car at your destination for forays into the surroundings.
Remember: We're all a bunch of commie socialists, and we insist upon public transport. And in many places, city governments impose regulations and traffic directions specifically designed to discourage driving in favor of public transport.
Driving is a pain.
Also, if you absolutely feel like you need to do the Autobahn thing, remember that a) it's fairly likely you won't be able to drive much more than 60 mph due to traffic, and b) people here have required Autobahn driving lessons, not driving on the right is a punishable offense, and the people doing the Autobahn know what they're doing - mostly.
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Hahaha... yeah those were some of the things we thought of.
The problem is that we didn't want to "backpack." Neither of us are too much into living out of one; we wanted to have at least one piece of luggage each, be able to put it in a car if we wandered around, that sort of thing. What do we do if our train gets in at 10 in the morning and we're stuck with luggage all day until the hotel in the evening? On the other hand, we're both students and poor as hell, so we were trying to balance the two. We could rent a Lancia (or thereabouts) I think it was in Milan for about 60 euros a week from Thriftys.
Renting cars for a day in different cities gets expensive, and plus we were kinda hoping to drive to non-popular places out in the countrysides and whatnot. Personally I was more concerned about finding my way around (especially near cities) and driving in Europe, so I had a lot of the same concerns you did. I didn't know about the tolls issue so much. Out of mild curiosity how much are tolls over there?
The other thing is, my girl's parents have driven all over Europe, and they seemed to think it was much nicer than North America. About 15 years ago they went from Italy-France-Germany for example. They don't see any problem with it. Has a lot changed since then I can point to?
greg
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Driving on the autostrada will having you pooing yourself in no time if you're not used to it.
Like, be prepared for *everyone* driving at v-max all the time. We're talking grannies in Fiat 126 jobbies trying to do the ton, with their faces pressed against the windscreen and one hand out of the window wildly gesticulating to all and sundry.
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DO NOT DRIVE ACROSS EUROPE UNLESS YOU'RE THINKING OF RENTING A CAMPER VAN.
Let me add an extra admonition to that:
DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER THINKING ABOUT POSSIBLY CONTEMPLATING RENTING A CAMPER VAN AND DRIVING ACROSS BORDERS IN IT!
Also, all countries except Germany, the Netherlands and Scandinavia have a toll system for their highways.
Fixed.
the people doing the Autobahn know what they're doing - mostly.
… except the 60 per cent of Autobahn drivers who are idiot tourists and drive any way they bloody see fit.
Actually, to be honest, I don’t think driving will be too big a problem. I would advise against renting just one car and driving the whole way, though. Set perhaps three or four central points to your trip, decide how many days you’re going to be in the general vicinity of that place, and plan from there. It will be a bit more expensive to rent three cars for five days each than it would be to rent one car for fifteen days, but it’ll pay off in other ways. Avoid crossing borders in rental cars if possible.
If your main points were, say, Milan and Munich, I’d suggest renting a car in each city, and then using that car to visit other places you’d like to go in the area (Germany and Italy being two rather large ‘areas’).
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Hahahaha....
To be fair, we're only going to be driving in Germany is coming from Vienna, to Munich, and then on to Switzerland (I got it backwards the first time). So we weren't planning on spending a lot of time driving on the highway(s) (in theory), beyond traveling to/from base destinations.
I guess I also didn't really think about parking. How much of an expensive pain is that I wonder?
greg
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Originally Posted by Oisín
Avoid crossing borders in rental cars if possible.
If your main points were, say, Milan and Munich, I’d suggest renting a car in each city, and then using that car to visit other places you’d like to go in the area
Yeah we're looking at that as well. The big thing is that Milan seemed decently cheap to rent from, and then we wouldn't need to pay for renting cars AND taking transportation from city to city. It seems to me that you end up paying a lot more like that.
Is it really so hard to cross borders in Europe? Like between Italy, Austria, Switzerland, and back to Italy? I really hadn't thought it would be a big deal.
(Germany and Italy being two rather large ‘areas’).
Heh heh, that's what I find so amusing. I mean, you call that "large;" as far as I'm concerned that's a pretty small area it seems to me. Last February my girl and I went from Toronto Ontario to Montreal Quebec, then to Tremblant Quebec, then to Quebec City Quebec, and then back to Toronto in exactly 9 days (for a total of 2000 km).
Hell, for the past 5 years, just to go snowboarding on Saturdays I had a 4.5-hour drive each way (about 380 km or so). Leave at 5am, get to the hill at 9, leave at 4:30 and be home by 9 or so.
greg
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And: tell me this isn't how much train passes are. Am I missing something?!?
doubleu tee eff
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I've done both. I would take the train if I had a choice. You can stop in small towns, and if you get a pass you can travel as often as you want for a specific period of time. This allows for more freedom - and plus, you can sleep on the train!
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
Is it really so hard to cross borders in Europe? Like between Italy, Austria, Switzerland, and back to Italy? I really hadn't thought it would be a big deal.
Switzerland's the only place you may have a problem with border crossing.
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Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
And: tell me this isn't how much train passes are. Am I missing something?!?
doubleu tee eff
Yeah, that looks about right to me. Seven days of unlimited train driving in three countries for $444 isn’t too shabby.
If you rent a car that goes about 15 km/l (pretty good for overall average performance, right?), $444 would probably get you about 1,300 kilometres or so, just in petrol money. That’s only just exactly enough to take you in a straight line from Frankfurt to Milan and back again.
It’s not crossing the borders in itself that will be a hassle, it’s more the fact that if you cross the borders in a rental car and something goes wrong, you’ll be stuck with a much larger bill than if something goes wrong in the country where you rented the car. Normally, the mandatory insurance the rental company sells you when you rent is only valid in the country of rental; if you want an international one, you’ll be paying a lot more. And trust me, you do not want to end up paying for a towing and possible repair of a car in a place like Switzerland (which is where a lot of cars crossing the Alps break down).
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You might wanna try a hub and spoke approach: You travel by train to the hub, and rent a car to explore the surrounding area. Make sure all your luggage is on wheels. Read the relevant Rick Steves guides, he has some pretty good ideas. However, as you probably know, you're picking the wrong year to travel to Europe on a shoestring. The Euro is way too strong at the moment.
Eurail pass is good. Car rentals are cheaper if made from over here. You can sometimes save money by calling back home to make reservations.
Also, use some street smarts, especially in Italy: if your girlfriend has a purse, she should always, always keep it on. You can't put it on the back of a chair in a restaurant or on the floor, because it may well be gone by the end of the meal. Fanny pack is best. Carry a photocopy of the relevant pages in your passport (which you'll carry separate from your other valuables,) and leave a copy at home, if it needs to be faxed over to you. Alert your credit card company in advance that you'll be travelling to such-n-such a country so that they don't freeze the card when they spot unusual purchases. Leave money in your checking account and use your bank card for local withdrawals: You'll be getting the interbank conversion rate, which will be better than changing money at banks, etc.
Use Skype from a laptop to phone back home. If needs be, get your mobile unlocked so that you can buy a local SIM card for making local phone calls, such as making reservations and travel arrangements. Buy a calling card from the following link, based on what country you'll be in most:
International Calling Cards & Online Phone Cards. Long Distance Calls, Prepaid VoIP
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Don't even bother going if you're not visiting Amsterdam.
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Driving through Europe is not as easy as it sounds. The roads are generally smaller and more congested than you see in America. More people living in smaller area.
It still isn't as hard as some people make it out to be either.
Assuming you are still thinking about three weeks of travel:
1. Don't cross the border over to Switzerland now that you've entered Schengen. Stay within Schengen.
2. Only do a one country radius, i.e. since you land in Germany, only visit either Poland, France, Austria etc. That'll be tricky enough to do by car in three weeks anyway, unless you plan to spend your vacation in a rent-a-car driving.
3. Don't rush. Haste makes waste and the journey is far more important than the destination.
Finally, there are benefits and drawbacks to both the car and the train. With the car you have a mobile base of operations, which is amazingly useful if you want to go and explore the countryside, see wineries etc, but the train is faster, more reliable and very practical for tourists. You can sleep while travelling from Germany to France.
Have a nice journey.
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An alternative is of course to take a cheap flight from Germany to Milan. Last year when we flew Berlin–Milan, it cost us about $40 each, all airport taxes and things included, if I recall correctly. Book well in advance.
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
The problem is that we didn't want to "backpack." Neither of us are too much into living out of one; we wanted to have at least one piece of luggage each, be able to put it in a car if we wandered around, that sort of thing. What do we do if our train gets in at 10 in the morning and we're stuck with luggage all day until the hotel in the evening?
Either the hotel will store it for you or you can buy a locker for a euro in the train station.
I've done both as a visitor to Europe, and there's no comparison: taking trains is so much better.
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Originally Posted by amazing
However, as you probably know, you're picking the wrong year to travel to Europe on a shoestring. The Euro is way too strong at the moment.
Actually, it's not - it's just that the US dollar is completely collapsing. Held against any other currency, the Euro is on a normal level.
(
Last edited by analogika; Mar 16, 2008 at 03:57 AM.
)
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Originally Posted by Oisín
Yeah, that looks about right to me. Seven days of unlimited train driving in three countries for $444 isn’t too shabby.
If you rent a car that goes about 15 km/l (pretty good for overall average performance, right?), $444 would probably get you about 1,300 kilometres or so, just in petrol money. That’s only just exactly enough to take you in a straight line from Frankfurt to Milan and back again.
Plus rental fees, plus insurance, plus the fact that driving is a lot more stressful than sitting and reading.
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Just for the record, we are probably flying into Frankfurt, but we're gonna fly from there to Milan, which is supposed to be the starting point. Car rentals are also much cheaper there which was a nice option.
Tentatively it looks like:
Milan
(maybe Florence and Rome, but Rome is iffy)
Venice
Vienna
Munich
Lauterbrunnen
...and back to Milan.
It's actually a fairly small radius.
I'm 27, so apparently I'm no longer a youth on the Eurorail...a YOUTH is 26?! You damn socialists.
$447 will give me 7 days of rail travel. That's pretty much exactly the number of cities we were thinking of visiting in 3 weeks. So it seemed that we would probably need to buy more, maybe the 9-day pass (how does it work? Can you use it for the full day to count as a "day?"). So that's gonna be over $500 for me, and $400 for the lady. Not cheap!
The problem is that we kinda wanted to see the countryside. I mean, we weren't planning on just going to Milan and touring around there for 4 days. We wanted to perhaps see Munich, but be able to meander a little as we went along – stop when we wanted to, or if we saw something interesting, etc. Most of the people I know just went to the big cities and hung out at each one, and then took a train between them. We weren't sure if that was really what we were after.
But yeah, I've been leaning towards not driving, but I'm getting pressure from the other end so to speak. My thing was that it would probably be close to useless, if not incredibly frustrating, anywhere near the actual cities. Since I would be the only one driving, I've got a vested interest here.
Rental fees as I said from Milan were about 60 euros a week, which isn't bad. Gas would be more expensive. We're looking into it but we've both got our respective banks' Gold Travel credit cards and I believe rental car insurance is covered, apparently as well as free auto-assistance anywhere in the world (which I don't know how that works?!?), as well as some travel insurance of course.
Rick Steves' Driving in Europe – drivers in Austria have to wear reflective vests?!?! WTF!
"Yes, that car has a driver. I know because I can see them."
greg
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
Rick Steves' Driving in Europe – drivers in Austria have to wear reflective vests?!?! WTF!
"Yes, that car has a driver. I know because I can see them."
"HAVE", not "wear".
It's a requirement in case of a breakdown or accident. We don't need vests here in Germany, but we are by law required to have a reflective warning triangle on board at all times, as well as an emergency kit with gloves, wound-dressing, etc.
If you break down on an Autobahn, the warning triangle is imperative and needs to be placed at least 100m up the road. If I were stuck on a mountain highway somewhere in Austria in the middle of the night and had to hike to the nearest gas station, a reflective vest sounds like a great idea.
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Rental fees as I said from Milan were about 60 euros a week, which isn't bad. Gas would be more expensive. We're looking into it but we've both got our respective banks' Gold Travel credit cards and I believe rental car insurance is covered, apparently as well as free auto-assistance anywhere in the world (which I don't know how that works?!?), as well as some travel insurance of course.
That’s good and very important.
(If you want to know how these things work, ask away: arranging towing/auto assistance and various other forms of travel insurance assistance is my job.)
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Well, I don't know why people here are so adamant about NOT driving in Europe.
I disagree. trains are great for getting from point A to B, but in your case, with a flexible schedule and wanting to be able to go here and there w/o much planning, a car is the BETTER option.
Yes, you can get in nasty driving situations, but I don't think it's so bad that you should avoid traveling by car altogether.
Plus, it will save you money over the trains if you are two people.
Go with the car, it gives you far more flexibility and lets you see places that you can't get to by train.
All I would recommend is to get a car with GPS or rent a GPS unit from the car rental place. It'll save you a of of time.
-t
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All I would recommend is to get a car with GPS or rent a GPS unit from the car rental place. It'll save you a of of time.
Just be aware that a lot of places in countries like Italy, especially in the rural areas, can be hard to find using a GPS, since they have neither street names or postal codes, just names that the locals use to refer to them.
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Heh. The car rental fees from Milan went up considerably overnight. Damn!
We are looking into using the trains for between-city travel, and then renting a car in maybe two cities to travel around. Rentals are relatively more expensive on a 3-day basis than for longer periods however. We were thinking about the GPS idea. I have a GPS available here, but I assume that would be hell/impossible to use in Europe what with the mapping and outlet differences.
I do like the idea of being able to rest and relax on trains over long hauls, but they are pretty damn expensive (at least $800 for the two of us at the least). My other question was: those lockers that you can rent at train stations: are they big enough to put luggage in?
greg
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Most larger train stations will have lockers of varying sizes (and prices). There should be some that are large enough to fit a full-size suitcase in any big train station.
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
I have a GPS available here, but I assume that would be hell/impossible to use in Europe what with the mapping and outlet differences.
You CAN use your US / CA GPS in Europe under the following condition: you must have maps loaded for Europe.
I have a TomTom 910, which came with NA and EU maps, it worked w/o a hitch. The power outlets is not a problem, because cars use the same 12V CLA.
-t
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There is a student train pass in the EU that lasts for a month and which allows you to hop on pretty much any train you want. It is what young europeans do, when they want to explore their continent. More info on Eurail - Official Website for all Eurail Passes.
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When I was over there, I rented a car three times. Having the car was incredibly convenient, but there are places you just do not want to have a car. Driving in Rome, for example, is a nightmare (we didn't have a car in Rome, but relatives live not far from the city center, and it was a nightmare going anywhere in the car with them).
We ended up driving from Venice to Bavaria and back, which was great; awesome scenery, quick, comfortable, etc. It's great being able to stop whenever you want. The hardest thing was getting used to driving on the right side of the road.
Tthe second occasion we rented a car was in Scotland; we picked it up in Edinburgh (I think), drove around the country, and dropped it back in the same location.
The third was in Ireland - from Dublin to the west coast and back over the course of a few days.
You'll find you pretty much *must* drop the car off where you picked it up, or the return fees become extortionate. Don't even consider dropping it somewhere else.
I agree with what someone else said above - hub and spoke approach. You don't want a car in Rome or London, but it's awfully convenient in less populated places where public transport can be cumbersome.
Oh, and: get the GPS! For the sake of your sanity. Seriously.
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You'll find you pretty much *must* drop the car off where you picked it up, or the return fees become extortionate. Don't even consider dropping it somewhere else.
This is a given. One-way fees are a very bad way to spend your life savings.
(Extreme example: one-way fee from Algeciras in Spain to Tromsø in Norway in an Avis car: about $5,600. Then again, whoever takes a rental car from Algeciras to Tromsø is an idiot.)
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Originally Posted by blackstar
There is a student train pass in the EU that lasts for a month and which allows you to hop on pretty much any train you want. It is what young europeans do, when they want to explore their continent. More info on Eurail - Official Website for all Eurail Passes.
As I understand it "youth passes" extend up to the age of 26. I'm getting up there for a student and just turned 27, so I'm probably **** outta luck.
We were looking at the 2nd class- saver, which comes to a total of USD $535*2= USD $1070 which includes 5 countries and 6+1 days of travel. My girlfriend is under 26, so we're trying to figure out how the "class" system works and if we could sit together if I got the 2nd Class and she got the Youth....
greg
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That wouldn’t be a problem. A Youth Pass entitles you to travel 2nd class ( = economy), which is the same as what a 2nd Class Pass entitles you to.
There is a student train pass in the EU that lasts for a month and which allows you to hop on pretty much any train you want. It is what young europeans do, when they want to explore their continent. Eurail - Official Website for all Eurail Passes .
Nitpicking, yes, but that’s slightly incorrect in that Eurail is for non-European residents only; for Europeans, it’s InterRail instead.
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Well, the plunge has been made.
We arrive in Iceland at 7am on the 5th of May, fly on to Frankfurt at 7am on the 8th of May, and fly back to Canada out of Frankfurt on the 27th of May.
Hooo boy... now to fill in details.....
greg
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By the way, if you plan on seeing anything except Reykjavík itself (Keflavík, where you’ll be landing is about 50 km from Reykjavík and is in itself not worth seeing at all) when in Iceland, you will most definitely need to rent a car there. Iceland is the one place in Europe where there is no such thing as public transportation. Well, Iceland and Greenland.
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You don't need a car to get around, especially in the cities, cars are a pain. Remember that unless you're from a big city and you're used to driving in big cities, driving in `Europe' is different.
There is one aspect that might not have been mentioned here: driving mentalities. Italy is special, the further South you go, the `worse' it gets. Traffic rules are merely suggestions.
In Germany, people are in a rush and you usually drive a lot faster than what you're used to. Don't underestimate the fact that people are trained and used to driving fast.
Nevertheless, I like exploring my country of choice by car. But I wouldn't travel in between cities by car. Gas is expensive (as is diesel), only few countries have toll-free highways and going around cities is a bare. Save yourself the trouble and rent a car once you're at destination. Don't rent a car for getting around cities, cities have public transportation that get you from A to B.
Oh, and if you do rent a car, make sure it's a diesel, they are more fuel-economic and diesel is cheaper than gas.
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diesel is cheaper than gas
Marginally so if even that, these days. Currently, diesel prices are 2¢ lower than regular 95 up here, and they have actually been higher on occasions. Not sure how the picture is further down south.
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Originally Posted by Oisín
By the way, if you plan on seeing anything except Reykjavík itself (Keflavík, where you’ll be landing is about 50 km from Reykjavík and is in itself not worth seeing at all) when in Iceland, you will most definitely need to rent a car there. Iceland is the one place in Europe where there is no such thing as public transportation. Well, Iceland and Greenland.
We're landing in Reykjavik itself. It says it's 1km south of the city centre; a 30-minute walk, or a 10-minute walk to buses.
greg
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Driving a car in Europe isn't THAT bad guys. OK so some of the cities (Rome and Paris especially are a bit frantic) but it's not the end of the world. Really, it's not some lawless frontier, we do have road laws and even the French abide by them from time to time.
Renting a car between cities isn't such a bad idea since you can stop and go as you please and make spur of the moment detours. City to city auto rental isn't to hard, most of the big companies are happy to do it. Yes, renting at one end of Europe and dropping at the other will be eye wateringly expensive but Paris to Berlin or similar may well be quite reasonable. Plus you'll get to see more of each country.
Certainly once in each major city, forget it. Use public transport.
Oh and we in teh Uk have toll free highways too, but in many European countries the major non motorway routes can be pretty good since most people are on the highways.
Don't be put off renting. Just don't rent the smallest car (often a Smart or similar) try to get a mid size like a Foed Fiesta or similar or even a nice Mondeo or Vectra (oxymoronic as it may sound) they make great cruisers.
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Posting Junkie
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
We're landing in Reykjavik itself. It says it's 1km south of the city centre; a 30-minute walk, or a 10-minute walk to buses.
that's very odd - that would be Reykjavíkurflugvöllur.
But that airport is only used for domestic flights.
Of course, Icelandair is the state airline, so they have full support from the Ministry of Tourism and other gov't agencies to do things, um, out of the ordinary.
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Just rent a car. I don't see why people are so against cars. You all make it sound like driving is hell, which it isn't. It's much more fun than trains and you don't have to stick to schedules and you're not at the mercy of union strikes (not uncommon!). In a large city you can drop your car off in a parking lot and take public transport. I can't imagine going on vacation without a car, you can't see everything with public transport. Public transport only works in big cities, in smaller towns you'll be wasting countless hours waiting on busses.
And yes, rent a diesel. It's up to 30 euro cents less expensive (1.40 vs 1.10 euros per liter) than petrol and diesels use less fuel. And the torque is nice if you plan on driving in the Alps. And I second the GPS suggestion.
Oh and, if you care, Belgium has toll free highways as well
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Originally Posted by analogika
that's very odd - that would be Reykjavíkurflugvöllur.
But that airport is only used for domestic flights.
Of course, Icelandair is the state airline, so they have full support from the Ministry of Tourism and other gov't agencies to do things, um, out of the ordinary.
There are a few international lines that use Reykjavíkurflugvöllur, rather than Keflavíkurflugvöllur, but they’re very few and far between.
Are you going on a chartered flight? I believe most of the international lines from RKV are chartered (though that might be incorrect).
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Thinking about it, don't be a pussy and rent a car, get a moped
-t
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Well I think we're going on Iceland Air? (I haven't booked it myself.) I know my girl said that the airline is newly running flights from Toronto to Europe which stop in Iceland... so I assume it's a new tourism thing?
I'm excited about Reykjavik anyway...
I think we're probably going to do the train thing. We may rent a car at one point or another. I've been getting some advice from a couple friends to go further south into Italy and visit Sorrento and the Isle of Ischia. Anyone here been around that area?
And all the advice/help has been spectacular guys. If you ever come to Canada I've got some ideas for you.
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If you ever come to Canada I've got some ideas for you.
End of June/beginning of July.
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Originally Posted by Oisín
That wouldn’t be a problem. A Youth Pass entitles you to travel 2nd class ( = economy), which is the same as what a 2nd Class Pass entitles you to.
Nitpicking, yes, but that’s slightly incorrect in that Eurail is for non-European residents only; for Europeans, it’s InterRail instead.
I was fortunate then; I was actually looking for InterRail because growing up in Europe I knew that this is what most young people in Europe used. Thanks for the correction though.
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Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
Well I think we're going on Iceland Air? (I haven't booked it myself.) I know my girl said that the airline is newly running flights from Toronto to Europe which stop in Iceland... so I assume it's a new tourism thing?
About 10 years ago, most americans used Iceland Air to travel to Europe because it was by far the cheapest fare. I am guessing that Iceland Air is trying to resurrect this trend.
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If you happen to rent a car, check gas prices in the countries that you want to drive to. Gas prices happen to differ a lot between countries.
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stephens
Really, it's not some lawless frontier
I see you've never been to Napoli. >_>
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@Cipher
He said Europe, not Africa
(Some Italians from the north claim that everything south of Rome is Africa.)
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
@Cipher
He said Europe, not Africa
(Some Italians from the north claim that everything south of Rome is Africa.)
Ouch.
*ducks, in case there are any resident Neapolitans on ’NN*
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Let's hope so
(By the way, some others set the border further up North! For them, Rome is just a haven of civilization in the wilderness.)
Personally, I found Italian traffic to be something I could get used to, though.
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