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l008com · Apr 25, 2008, 11:24 PM

http://www.menulizard.com/postcard.pdf

So last summer I sent out a tri-fold brochure to try and give my site a little boost. It didn't do very well. My bulk mail permit hasn't expired yet so I figured I'd try one more time with a totally different piece of mail and see if I have any better luck.

So the PDF above is a 5x7 postcard. Its purpose is to get restaurant owners to want to mail me their menus.

The brochure I sent out had lots of detail.(See) It didn't seem to help. So the idea with this card is to explain the very basics as briefly as possible.

I'm not totally in love with the wording but I want to keep it as simple and short as possible.

Thoughts on the card?

l008com · Apr 25, 2008, 11:30 PM

OK I just changed the wording on the back a little bit, I like it a lot better now. Very simple, right to the point.

peeb · Apr 26, 2008, 12:45 AM

Well, frankly, it's not clear why anyone would want to mail their menu. The site doesn't come up on any searches for restaurants I know even in the areas that you have listings for. I guess if I owned a restaurant I'd want to know why this would help me. It's not clear to me that people pick a restaurant by looking at the menu - I'd rather have reviews of the food.

For example, there are five restaurants listed in Oregon. All of them are in Salem, and two of them are the same. Looking at the menus, I still know not much more than I did by the titles. Wow - the Hong Kong House sells Crispy Spring Rolls - but are they any good?

Oisín · Apr 26, 2008, 06:12 AM

For example, there are five restaurants listed in Oregon. All of them are in Salem, and two of them are the same. Looking at the menus, I still know not much more than I did by the titles. Wow - the Hong Kong House sells Crispy Spring Rolls - but are they any good?

How odd. That’s exactly the same restaurant I ended at by just clicking on random states/towns/restaurants.

quid · Apr 27, 2008, 01:10 AM

I am not really sure about it. nothing about the lizard graphic tells me anything about menus or restaurants other than relating to the name of the site.

KeriVit · Apr 27, 2008, 03:20 PM

I agree. The lizard on the front is completely irrelevant. As is the wording. Really, you got to show your potential clients the benefit to them. Something like increased exposure, more customers, stuff like that. I don't think you're quite there with the front.

l008com · Apr 28, 2008, 04:36 AM

The lizard is my logo. The wording on the front is very clear. If you search for restaurants that are in my database, my site will come up right near the top every time. As far as explaining all this to the recipients of this postcard... I tried that with the two sided brochure I mailed out. It didn't work. Too much information. That's why this post card is so short and right to the point.
As far as the "why would I want to do this", its free. Explaining to someone why posting your menu on the internet for free is a good thing, is beyond the scope of a POST card.

red rocket · 05:36 AM

1. I wouldn’t use a sans-serif font for a real world postcard. Looks unprofessional.

2. It’s not really free, is it? The restaurant still has to pay postage. Which may amount to more than they’re willing to pay, depending on size, weight, etc. The restaurants I go to have heavy, large, bound menus which would cost several dollars to mail. And for what? The potential benefit of having their menu listed on your site is eminently unclear.

3. Here’s a suggestion, go minimal:

andi*pandi · Apr 28, 2008, 10:36 AM

it's unclear why someone would go to your site to find a restaurant, unless it also linked to reviews. Wouldn't people google TheirTown + Restaurant? It's good you link to google maps. Nifty interface. Needs more restaurants. Would you link to a restaurant's website if it had one?

the postcard is fine to me, the lizard as a logo ties into it because lizard is in your name, but it doesn't say much about menus.

peeb · Apr 28, 2008, 11:54 AM

Since you asked for honest feedback, I certainly would not go to your site because it is so unlikely to help me find a good restaurant. You have five listed for the state I live in, and none for the city (the largest city in the state, btw). There are over 20 restaurants within walking distance of where I live.

quid · 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

The lizard is my logo. The wording on the front is very clear. If you search for restaurants that are in my database, my site will come up right near the top every time. As far as explaining all this to the recipients of this postcard... I tried that with the two sided brochure I mailed out. It didn't work. Too much information. That's why this post card is so short and right to the point.
As far as the "why would I want to do this", its free. Explaining to someone why posting your menu on the internet for free is a good thing, is beyond the scope of a POST card.

well, your logo incongruous about what you do.

BTW you should loose the Obama banner on your site, no better way to turn off customers that to espouse opposing political views.

andi*pandi · Apr 28, 2008, 12:36 PM

instead of the lizard taking up so much space, why not show a screenshot of the website, zoomed in? Make the lizard smaller. Give the customer a message.

Want to get new patrons to your restaurant?
Get more foot traffic?
Link in to google?
(other benefits here)

Thorzdad · Apr 28, 2008, 02:40 PM

Okay, gang. Let's play nice, okay. Critiques can get a bit rough at times, but there's no reason we can't keep it civil. This isn't the Politics forum, afterall.

That said...
I really do think there needs to be a bit more "sell" to your piece. The fact that you offer listings optimized (I assume) for both mobile access and the Wii are two good value points that should be pointed out. As a restauranteur, I'd want something that would make it worth my while to mail you my menu. Mobile access is a nice point.

As for the lizard...well...I'd really like to see some synergy between him and the whole dining concept, to better tie it together. Not sure what, though. It could be something as painfully obvious as a knife and fork in his hands.

peeb · 03:30 PM

I think this sums it up.

Only one restaurant in New York City?

KeriVit · 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

The lizard is my logo. The wording on the front is very clear. If you search for restaurants that are in my database, my site will come up right near the top every time. As far as explaining all this to the recipients of this postcard... I tried that with the two sided brochure I mailed out. It didn't work. Too much information. That's why this post card is so short and right to the point.
As far as the "why would I want to do this", its free. Explaining to someone why posting your menu on the internet for free is a good thing, is beyond the scope of a POST card.

I understand the lizard is your logo, but it does nothing to entice the recipient. You don't have to explain it to them, just make them want to do it. Ya know? Get people excited. Tell them this will be the new latest and greatest thing.

EDIT: I like where Thorzdad is going. That's more what I was trying to say. It gives the lizard purpose. And I do LOVE lizards btw.

red rocket · Apr 29, 2008, 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by Thorzdad

As for the lizard...well...I'd really like to see some synergy between him and the whole dining concept, to better tie it together. Not sure what, though. It could be something as painfully obvious as a knife and fork in his hands.

Or in his back, even.

thibaulthalpern · Apr 29, 2008, 07:29 PM

I agree with most posts here. I got a bachelor's in professional writing (and design) though I never was professional in that field (doing social research right now) but here is my advice from having tried to work on pieces like this in my university years:

• There is no reason any restaurant will mail you their menu. If you want to entice them to do that, you need to include an envelope and postage prepaid. It's going to be expensive but that is one way to entice them. If you just mail this postcard to them, most will likely discard it in a second. Why? Because it takes them time to sit down, find an envelope (and appropriate stamps) to mail you a copy of their menu. I used to run a restaurant as a manager so I know how busy it can get.

• Even if you do include envelope and postage, it is not clear what posting a menu on your site will do for the restaurant. "Free" is not enough of an incentive to move people to actually want to act on your postcard. "Free" only addresses the economic aspect of incentive. There is also the restaurant's time and energy that is part of the equation that needs to be thought about in order to persuade the restaurant to act on your postcard.

• The font is unprofessional looking. The body text is typographically awkward. I would use a sans-serif font. The lessons on font as a communication device is LONG. If you have not done so already, look for Robin Williams' book on fonts. It's a starter.

• The design of the postcard is also problematic. Is "Free online menu posting" the incentive you're trying to get people to respond to your piece? As said already, that's problematic. It's not an incentive. You need something else to catch the eyes of the person in the first part of your postcard.

• The logo is problematic too. I agree with other posters that it does not correlate to menu, restaurant or eating. In fact, when I looked at it at first glance, I felt a little insulted. The lizard looks like it was smirking at me by poking its tongue out. You might want to consider a redesign of your logo. Now, if you are already a well-known established institution, a logo like this can work but right now it doesn't work.

• You have to think of your postcard as a rhetoric. That means, it is a device that is intended to persuade people into action and to have people respond in a way that you want them to. In other words, think of your postcard as a solution to a problem. The postcard as the solution to the problem of how do I get restaurants to respond, does not work right now.

• Do lose the Obama graphics. Your site should remain as politically neutral as possible other-wise you'll be definitely turning away restaurant owners who are not supporting Obama. You create problems by adding Obama on to your website.

• I do think it's going to be very hard to get people to respond to your postcard no matter how good it is. It seems from looking at your site you want to do this as a nation-wide project. That's ambitious. How about starting just in your local area? The reason is because that way, you can go around your town and pick up menus to post on your website. You may need to put more juice by doing by doing more walking around at the onset in order to jumpstart your site. Once you get the momentum going and other restaurants see that there are quite a few restaurants on your site, that may start a rolling ball effect.

• Finally, you might want to look at some books by Edward Tufte on visual design and see what he has to say.

Good luck!

andi*pandi · Apr 30, 2008, 12:35 PM

why not let them email you a PDF?

red rocket · May 2, 2008, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

why not let them email you a PDF?

I think it’s a long shot that a restaurant will even have the menu in PDF format.

Besides, there are all sorts of other problems with the idea. Decent restaurants keep changing their menu on a seasonal, perhaps weekly basis. There will also likely be price changes over time, how frequently, if at all, can the OP expect the restaurants to update their listings?

thibaulthalpern · May 2, 2008, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by red rocket

I think it’s a long shot that a restaurant will even have the menu in PDF format.

Besides, there are all sorts of other problems with the idea. Decent restaurants keep changing their menu on a seasonal, perhaps weekly basis. There will also likely be price changes over time, how frequently, if at all, can the OP expect the restaurants to update their listings?

I don't know what you mean by "decent" but most middle-fare restaurants do not change their menus on a seasonal basis. Some high-end restaurants do but most restaurants (which are middle of the road types) have a fairly fixed menu.

red rocket · May 3, 2008, 03:28 AM

Not sure what you consider ‘middle of the road’, but assuming the restaurant serves vegetables, not all of those are in season throughout the year. Consequently, there will be at the very least a summer and a winter menu. If something isn’t in season, a self-respecting chef won’t put it on the menu. The alternative would be to have a fixed menu with seasonal supplements, but even that doesn’t make it any easier from a mailing/updating perspective.

peeb · May 4, 2008, 08:57 PM

Yep - specials are a big deal. Linking to the restaurant's own page with their menu with a section for reviews would be a better way to go.

art_director · May 9, 2008, 04:17 PM

Much has been said about the content, typeface, etc. so I'll avoid those subjects.

Two important notes:

1. For direct mail a return of 5% is considered a success. Not my rule, not my gauge but an industry rule of thumb -- it's not always an efficient medium.

2. The email address, [email protected], will likely be covered by the barcode your Post Office will add to the address side of the card. This is often a sticker.

3. No comma needed after MA and before the zip code.

tpicco · 12:31 PM

I could echo a lot of the previous comments... but essentially, I think the most important suggestion was start local... do a lot of footwork and collect menus in person... talk to the owners, telling them what you're doing... after your site has grown a bit more, you might have a chance.

Me, I live in NYC... I go to w w w. menupages. c o m... they have menus, restaurants, addresses, links to maps, links to websites for restaurants that have them, and reviews by customers... listings are alternately grouped by location, price range, type of food... and they are thorough!

What are you offering that's different or improved??

hedmisten · May 10, 2008, 07:14 PM

I think that it makes them want to visit menulizard.com for certain.

peeb · May 10, 2008, 07:25 PM

Menupages has 6000 listings for Manhattan. You have 400 for the whole country. I think that's an issue.

bluedog · May 12, 2008, 12:11 AM

Not that I've done a ton on this type of marketing but how about saving the cost of menus and 'hire' any local bloke to take a photo of the menu and send it to you. For that photo you give them credit or some other incentive to send you the menu.

If you get enough people interested, you'll have a site full of restaurant menus. Then keeping people refreshing and adding menus when they change would be an automatic bonus.

Getting online users fired up to do this is probably easier than sending out postcards asking for the restaurant to do this themselves.

l008com · May 12, 2008, 12:15 AM

Why oh why won't this thread die.

I know I don't have that many menus. Thats why I'm sending out post cards to restaurants. Get it? What the ****. Someone please lock this pointless thread.

quid · May 13, 2008, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by l008com

Why oh why won't this thread die.

I know I don't have that many menus. Thats why I'm sending out post cards to restaurants. Get it? What the ****. Someone please lock this pointless thread.

We are just pointing out that the card isn't working because the the design has some flaws. If you didn't want a critique, why did you post this? getting mad at us for giving you what you asked for is pointless.

1) The design of the card and Website are amateurish. If you are not a designer that is fine, but you have to trust the people who are when they tell you the design of your materials is lacking. Try looking for design students at local colleges or universities, they might me willing to help you out for a lot less than a professional designer.

2) Getting upset because people didn't tell you exactly what you wanted makes people not want to help you in the future.

3) you should really drop the Obama ads on the sites since that will turn off potential customers. My uncle owns a restaurant and would never use your site for the simple fact that he voted for Clinton. But lets not kid ourselves, this website is not about serving customers, it is about putting google ads in front of web surfers. if it wasn't about ads, what incentive would you have to do this for free? none. The restaurant listings are just a courtesy to the people who view the ads.

Thorzdad · May 13, 2008, 12:20 PM

Thread has been closed by request of the OP...and before things really get out of hand.