[kenna]

Hi All,

I'm going to be purchasing a new MacBook Pro either tonight or tomorrow. I have a MacBook Black 2008 model, which is to be seen in the bottom corner of my sig. That MacBook Black was smashed by someone I knew after 6 months of having it. This resulted in me needing to replace the screen and dealing with it being somewhat bent and damaged for 3 years. The SuperDrive is broken and in all honesty, I just want a new one now.

So with that said, my requirements:

I do little video editing and Aperture in my spare time but also for work. I wish to buy a 15" or 17" because I want a computer that will last the next 5-6 years and the components are superior. I multitask often with the likes of PPT, Keynote, iTunes, Word, QuickTime, Aperture and iMovie (but I might get Final Cut Pro soon). I will use my MacBook Pro as my home computer, while my MacBook Black will be my computer for work where I do presentations and such. Therefore, I will use it on my dining room table more often than not, but I will also use it as a laptop where I can game (Football Manager) on the sofa too. I understand that for my needs, I don't need the best Mac Apple has to offer... but for it to last for the period that I'd like it to, I need it to be great now and for quite some years.

My questions:

Does the MacBook 17" seem too big when on your lap on a sofa?
Does the fact that the Pro's still come without a SSD mean that they will soon become somewhat obsolete?
Can I replace my 750 GB 5,400 RPM or 500GB 7,200RPM drive with a SSD in the future (once prices drop)?
For my needs, is the high definition Glossy screen the way to go or the Matte? I always find Glossy screens more attractive, if reflective, but Matte screens not as pretty, but not reflective at all (which is a bonus, but not necessarily something I prefer. I always think my iPad screen looks a lot better). Give me your opinion on this please! I know it's personal preference, but peoples personal experiences are much better than a one off in an Apple Store.
Will the 1GB of RAM and the Graphics card be good for the 5-6 years that I hope they will be given my uses?
Finally and ultimately, if you had the choice of either the 15inch top spec or 17 inch model, which would you choose and why? And if you've had a 15inch and 17inch, which do you think would be better for me given that the majority of the time it'll be on my table and won't be transported.

Thanks, it's a tough one

Lastly, has anyone used Apple financing? What are your experiences? I want to use them, but I'd like to pay it off in advance of the 24 months, preferably within 12. But I don't have the money to just splash the whole lot at once. I just got a permanent job after my 12 month contract, so it's my celebration present. *Edit* I've found another method of payment

[Spheric Harlot]

The 17" MacBook pro is just too large, period.

(unless yoou absolutely need the big screen and can't hook up an external.)

[ghporter]

I concur about the 17" being WAY too big. A classmate lugged her first gen MBP around throughout grad school, and I frankly think she got kind of buff from it. It takes up a lot of real estate, it is inconvenient to stow for carrying, and the capabilities of the 17" models, the "bang for the buck," aren't so advanced past the 15" models. I have a first gen 15" MBP, and I've done video editing, had many apps running concurrently, and lots of other intensive stuff-it's been a trooper, and it's still the nicest laptop I've ever owned. Today's 15" MBPs have much faster processors, way more RAM capacity, and are likely to leave mine in the dust in terms of processing power. Go 15. Really.

[kenna]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I concur about the 17" being WAY too big. A classmate lugged her first gen MBP around throughout grad school, and I frankly think she got kind of buff from it. It takes up a lot of real estate, it is inconvenient to stow for carrying, and the capabilities of the 17" models, the "bang for the buck," aren't so advanced past the 15" models. I have a first gen 15" MBP, and I've done video editing, had many apps running concurrently, and lots of other intensive stuff-it's been a trooper, and it's still the nicest laptop I've ever owned. Today's 15" MBPs have much faster processors, way more RAM capacity, and are likely to leave mine in the dust in terms of processing power. Go 15. Really.

Thanks to both posters, hoping someone can help me out with the other questions then. I'll stick with the 15" but I'm going to upgrade the screen to hi-def resolution as well. I always kinda thought the 17" screen would be really great to work with, but if it's too big, I'll stick to 15". I can't hook up to an external though.

[Waragainstsleep]

The better the spec, the longer it will last you. If you refuse to have an external display then you probably ought to get the high res panel.
You can upgrade to an SSD in the future. There are persistent rumours that Apple will change the MBP to look more like the MacBook Air. Seems more likely the MacBook will go this way first but either way the current Pros are brand new and will not be getting outshone any time soon.
I like the glossy display on my Unibody 15" but I didn't dislike the matte display on my previous 15" either. Colours are richer-looking on glossy and the reflections have never seemed a problem to me. I always think people who bitch about glossy displays are being a little over dramatic. You have the best of idea of where it will be used. You can check how bad reflections will be using your iPad.

Size and weight are also a more personal issue than a lot of people seem to take into account. If you are a 90-pound weakling then don't go for the 17". If you are reasonably fit and strong then it shouldn't be a problem. I've seen some fairly small girls lug them about at college without complaining. There was a time I carried 3 laptops about almost all the time (don't ask) so its not an issue for me. If you don't plan on moving it much then you will probably be fine with a 17".
I've never used Apple financing. They used to do it through MBNA who I wouldn't give my phone number to in a million years. Maybe its changed now though.

[kenna]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

The better the spec, the longer it will last you. If you refuse to have an external display then you probably ought to get the high res panel.
You can upgrade to an SSD in the future. There are persistent rumours that Apple will change the MBP to look more like the MacBook Air. Seems more likely the MacBook will go this way first but either way the current Pros are brand new and will not be getting outshone any time soon.
I like the glossy display on my Unibody 15" but I didn't dislike the matte display on my previous 15" either. Colours are richer-looking on glossy and the reflections have never seemed a problem to me. I always think people who bitch about glossy displays are being a little over dramatic. You have the best of idea of where it will be used. You can check how bad reflections will be using your iPad.

Size and weight are also a more personal issue than a lot of people seem to take into account. If you are a 90-pound weakling then don't go for the 17". If you are reasonably fit and strong then it shouldn't be a problem. I've seen some fairly small girls lug them about at college without complaining. There was a time I carried 3 laptops about almost all the time (don't ask) so its not an issue for me. If you don't plan on moving it much then you will probably be fine with a 17".
I've never used Apple financing. They used to do it through MBNA who I wouldn't give my phone number to in a million years. Maybe its changed now though.

Thanks for this reply, it's great.

I figure MB Pro's won't be updated again for a long while, especially re-design. I like their current form and like a sturdy, solid design. So I'm not too bothered with a change to the design happening as I kind of liked the fact I got the Black MacBook last time before the white ones ruled.

I use my iPad next to my MacBook a lot of the time and always prefer looking at the iPad's intense bright screen, so it's good that I can hopefully have a bigger screen next to it that will look really nice.

As for you who has had two 15" on the run, do you prefer the 15" and wouldn't like the 17"?

I'm concerned I'll get it and think it's overkill as I can survive on a 13" screen after all, but I do fancy the bigger form factor this time round. It's just funny as I used to have a 17" before I bought a Mac and when I transferred to the smaller form factor, I liked it.

As for Apple Financing, I'm from the UK so I'm guessing the company will be different. But we'll see, I'll pretend to buy one now and look at the terms and conditions. Thanks

[Spheric Harlot]

One thing about the hi-res option:

Consider your age, and your eyesight. Text on the hi-rez gets damn small - and in a lot of situations, it can't simply be zoomed. (Changing the display resolution isn't an alternative, as that just fuzzes everything up - frying pan into the fire etc.)

If you're around forty, you'll probably need reading glasses within the next two to five years, and the hi-res display will be...difficult.

[kenna]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

One thing about the hi-res option:

Consider your age, and your eyesight. Text on the hi-rez gets damn small - and in a lot of situations, it can't simply be zoomed. (Changing the display resolution isn't an alternative, as that just fuzzes everything up - frying pan into the fire etc.)

If you're around forty, you'll probably need reading glasses within the next two to five years, and the hi-res display will be...difficult.

Thanks for this, I'm 24 and do have glasses but for distance. Up close I can read anything.
Do you mean that because of the intensity of the screen that it could damage my eyesight in the long run?

I'm only purchasing now next weekend But I've ordered a credit card with interest free for 15 months, so it'll be easy to pay off for me and then I'll just cancel it. Saves going through Apple's 14.9% APR and also means that I can get 8GB RAM. I'm also swaying towards the 15" but I'm struggling to decide. Might take a trip to the Apple Store tomorrow and have a look.

[Spheric Harlot]

It won't damage your eyesight, don't worry.

At some point (in about twenty years from now), your eyes will start straining at that resolution, though.

[Waragainstsleep]

I'm in the UK too but I think they switched to Barclays over here now so MBNA are a non issue these days. I assumed you were in the US and wasn't sure about their arrangements. Low rate credit card is a good idea. If you have an existing card, give them a call perhaps they'll do you a good rate. You often get other benefits paying by card too. Some provide insurance or extra warranty.

I've never had a 17" to use for very long. I did use a 13" for a long time and while I had no problem with it, once I went up to 15" there was no going back. I'm not sure that would apply to going up to 17" though. My choice of machine was determined originally by availability. I haven't had the money to buy a new one in a over a decade. Most of mine I build from spares or rebuild from write-offs. Never got my hands on a 17" that way since there are less of them about and they are much more difficult to accidentally wreck beyond economic repair. If I had the cash to buy new, I might be tempted, but I don't really do any video or heavy graphics work. It would be a luxury for playing COD for the most part. I would also have to consider a top spec 15" and external display if it was similar total cost.

[kenna]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

It won't damage your eyesight, don't worry.

At some point (in about twenty years from now), your eyes will start straining at that resolution, though.

Thanks, that's good news. I can't imagine what resolution screens will be capable of then... if that's how resolutions work in terms of improvement.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I'm in the UK too but I think they switched to Barclays over here now so MBNA are a non issue these days. I assumed you were in the US and wasn't sure about their arrangements. Low rate credit card is a good idea. If you have an existing card, give them a call perhaps they'll do you a good rate. You often get other benefits paying by card too. Some provide insurance or extra warranty.

I've never had a 17" to use for very long. I did use a 13" for a long time and while I had no problem with it, once I went up to 15" there was no going back. I'm not sure that would apply to going up to 17" though. My choice of machine was determined originally by availability. I haven't had the money to buy a new one in a over a decade. Most of mine I build from spares or rebuild from write-offs. Never got my hands on a 17" that way since there are less of them about and they are much more difficult to accidentally wreck beyond economic repair. If I had the cash to buy new, I might be tempted, but I don't really do any video or heavy graphics work. It would be a luxury for playing COD for the most part. I would also have to consider a top spec 15" and external display if it was similar total cost.

That's good, I'm getting a Marks & Spencers one as they've got an offer on at the moment of 0% for 15 months. So I'll just pay it off and I'll only pay the price of the MacBook too which is great.

That's cool, I basically use the kitchen table for all my work, so I have to move it all to and fro every day. So an external display isn't really possible. I like that a 17inch would be really robust though. I imagine it would be fantastic to have a 17inch, just because bigger is always better in some ways. But I think for on my lap, I'm unsure if it'll just swamp me. I'm going to check the AppleStore at the weekend and see for myself...

But basically, going to go with this spec if I do:

2.2GHz quad-core
Intel Core i7
4GB 1333MHz
750GB 5400-rpm1
Intel HD Graphics 3000
AMD Radeon HD 6750M with 1GB GDDR5

But if I go with the 15 inch it'll be:

2.2GHz quad-core
Intel Core i7
8GB 1333MHz
750GB 5400-rpm1
Intel HD Graphics 3000
AMD Radeon HD 6750M with 1GB GDDR5
With the hi-def screen that comes as standard on the 17"

It's a lot of money, it's cool that you can build your own I'm just single and don't have as many priorities I guess. COD on a 17" does sound great though!

[Waragainstsleep]

Get your RAM upgrade 3rd party. That'll save a couple of quid.

[kenna]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Get your RAM upgrade 3rd party. That'll save a couple of quid.

Even though I get education discount?

[Spheric Harlot]

RAM quality varies.

The last generation of iMacs would not work reliably with most 4GB sticks (Samsung was generally okay).

I don't know about the new ones.

Just something to watch out for.

If the difference is ten or fifteen pounds ...

[Waragainstsleep]

When I say 'a few quid', I'm understating it. It is possible to save quite big on RAM. Apple charge £160 to bump an MBP to 8GB (sans edu discount).

Kingston apple 4G 1333Mhz Module Mac Book Module: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

£32 each with lifetime warranty. Thats almost £100 less. Plus a lifetime warranty on your RAM.

[kenna]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

RAM quality varies.

The last generation of iMacs would not work reliably with most 4GB sticks (Samsung was generally okay).

I don't know about the new ones.

Just something to watch out for.

If the difference is ten or fifteen pounds ...

Thanks for the heads up, I went with Apple last time round and the 4GB then was really poorly priced, but part of what I like about Apple is that the majority of their components are devised in house, or at least they're designed based around the parts that come with them... it's what makes me go Apple for RAM, or at least did last time...

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

When I say 'a few quid', I'm understating it. It is possible to save quite big on RAM. Apple charge £160 to bump an MBP to 8GB (sans edu discount).

Kingston apple 4G 1333Mhz Module Mac Book Module: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

£32 each with lifetime warranty. Thats almost £100 less. Plus a lifetime warranty on your RAM.

That's a big difference agreed, as it's an investment though, I'll probably just stick with Apple. I'm going to get AppleCare after a year anyway... but a lifetime guarantee is really good. Thanks for going to the trouble.

I've spoken to a friend today who uses a 15" MacBook Pro at work, he said for my situation he'd probably go for the 17" as he uses the extra widescreen monitor at work with it.

Hoping to be able to buy it by next week and as I'm going to be using a credit card, I'll buy the RAM with the 17" anyways and just pay off a little extra this month as it's going to be saving time from there on in...

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by kenna 

That's a big difference agreed, as it's an investment though, I'll probably just stick with Apple. I'm going to get AppleCare after a year anyway... but a lifetime guarantee is really good. Thanks for going to the trouble.

This makes no sense at all.
Apple will only occasionally bitch and moan about 3rd party RAM when they can't work out whats really wrong with a Mac. They usually keep spare Apple RAM to test for such faults these days and you can always keep the Apple RAM you remove in case you ever have to get it repaired.

Apple would like you to think their RAM is special in some way but it isn't. Its not higher quality. Apple usually use Samsung or Hynix chips in their RAM modules. Kingston and others often use the exact same chips. Paying less for better quality with a longer warranty is a no brainer. Its your money if you prefer to waste it.

[Big Mac]

The only reason to ever consider paying up for extra Apple RAM is if you're buying a Mac that is difficult to do RAM upgrades on, or if you're the type who doesn't like/is intimated by working in computer hardware internals. Otherwise, you're better off buying your own RAM.

[kenna]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

This makes no sense at all.
Apple will only occasionally bitch and moan about 3rd party RAM when they can't work out whats really wrong with a Mac. They usually keep spare Apple RAM to test for such faults these days and you can always keep the Apple RAM you remove in case you ever have to get it repaired.

Apple would like you to think their RAM is special in some way but it isn't. Its not higher quality. Apple usually use Samsung or Hynix chips in their RAM modules. Kingston and others often use the exact same chips. Paying less for better quality with a longer warranty is a no brainer. Its your money if you prefer to waste it.

I know, I know, it makes no sense as such but the post below kinda sums me up:

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The only reason to ever consider paying up for extra Apple RAM is if you're buying a Mac that is difficult to do RAM upgrades on, or if you're the type who doesn't like/is intimated by working in computer hardware internals. Otherwise, you're better off buying your own RAM.

I would hate to open up a Mac even if it is easy to do. I've never messed around with electrics, I am not very good at it. But honestly speaking, I would think Apple RAM would last regardless of the warranty.

I'd just rather have it come with the 8GB RAM and then I won't have to mess with it at all, hopefully have it ordered by the weekend but the credit card is taking its sweet time.

Can't wait though. Has anyone actually got a 17" and can vouch for it being okay on your lap? I'm not small in build, so I won't be complaining about the weight, it's more the ability to have it on your lap and have it balance and work on it without a problem?

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by kenna 

...video editing and Aperture in my spare time but also for work. I multitask often with the likes of PPT, Keynote, iTunes, Word, QuickTime, Aperture and iMovie (but I might get Final Cut Pro soon).

I will use my MacBook Pro as my home computer... I will use it on my dining room table more often than not, but I will also use it as a laptop where I can game (Football Manager) on the sofa too.

I understand that for my needs, I don't need the best Mac Apple has to offer... but for it to last for the period that I'd like it to, I need it to be great now and for quite some years.

First off, you do need the best Mac laptop Apple has to offer. Aperture is my primary app, and it is a hardware hog that does best with the strongest 15/17 MBP and you do want 8 GB RAM.

Does the MacBook 17" seem too big when on your lap on a sofa?

No. My guess is that the folks saying 17 is too large have not used a 17 for graphics apps and gaming on the sofa, and on the "dining room table more often than not." I 100% disagree with them, and I have thousands of hours with both sizes, your apps, your described operation.

I had all the smaller Mac laptops, then when my 15" TiBook needed replacing I tried a 17" MBP. Awesome. For a pound you get a huge amount more screen real estate and pixels. Especially as a desktop replacement (DTR) box without an appended external display, the 17" is far superior for images work. My friend has a 15" and if we watch a movie it is always on the 17" even though both laptops are equally available, both high rez matte displays. Even her 10-year-old son prefers the 17" in his lap to watch movies.

I have now carried a 17" everywhere for 5 years, including on campus and I consider the 17" size far superior. Obviously other folks disagreed - but I would bet that they are not Aperture/FCP users without external displays attached.

I routinely watch movies on the 17" MBP in my lap and far prefer the extra screen real estate and pixels. The difference is huge, do the math. Way worth a pound of weight.

Does the fact that the Pro's still come without a SSD mean that they will soon become somewhat obsolete?

No. SSDs are available on new MBPs at a fair price and I strongly recommend ordering your MBP with an SSD. The overall performance improvement is huge. I bought the 128 GB SSD and will upgrade to a larger OWC SSD when the warranty expires and/or I fill the SSD. I will also be replacing the optical drive with a 7200 rpm hard drive or with another SSD.

Can I replace my 750 GB 5,400 RPM or 500GB 7,200RPM drive with a SSD in the future (once prices drop)?

Yes. But if you choose a hard drive rather than SSD get 7200 rpm.

For my needs, is the high definition Glossy screen the way to go or the Matte? I always find Glossy screens more attractive, if reflective, but Matte screens not as pretty, but not reflective at all (which is a bonus, but not necessarily something I prefer. I always think my iPad screen looks a lot better). Give me your opinion on this please! I know it's personal preference...

Most image pros much prefer matte displays. Personally glossy gags me, but you are the one who will be looking at it every day.

As to high resolution, it definitely makes some text hard to read for my aging eyes - but I still prefer it for the effect it has on image viewing. The benefits of higher resolution is definitely something that ones eyes/brain learns to appreciate rather than something you look at and immediately appreciate unless you are an images pro.

Will the 1GB of RAM and the Graphics card be good for the 5-6 years that I hope they will be given my uses?

IMO probably yes, but forecasting 5 years out is a guess at best. 4-5 years is a more likely max for a heavy graphics app box. Most pros look to a 3 year life cycle.

...if you had the choice of either the 15inch top spec or 17 inch model, which would you choose and why? And if you've had a 15inch and 17inch, which do you think would be better for me given that the majority of the time it'll be on my table and won't be transported.

Answered above. 17" And I do not even need to qualify that as usually on the table. I have always mostly used my MBP in the field, and IMO the 17" is far superior.

15" rocks for commuter types hating an extra pound, not doing significant images work and/or hooked up to an external display much of the time.

HTH

-Allen Wicks

[ghporter]

Sierra is right in that my advice about the 17" being too large wasn't based on heavy duty video work or on sofa-based gaming. But hauling the thing around IS a major drawback. If you want the computer to be a proper laptop that lets you do what you want, rather than a "couch top" platform that you do not have to carry around, that's a different issue. I had assumed you were looking for a laptop for portability as well as capability...

[kenna]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

First off, you do need the best Mac laptop Apple has to offer. Aperture is my primary app, and it is a hardware hog that does best with the strongest 15/17 MBP and you do want 8 GB RAM.

Thanks, I'm a big fan of Aperture as well (when I have the time, it's more for recreation than anything), but when I get my DSLR and take it on holiday, I love editing pictures with Aperture when I return home and I am thinking 8GB of RAM is compulsory.

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

No. My guess is that the folks saying 17 is too large have not used a 17 for graphics apps and gaming on the sofa, and on the "dining room table more often than not." I 100% disagree with them, and I have thousands of hours with both sizes, your apps, your described operation.

Thanks!! This is really helpful, like I stated, it's really going to be on my dining room table 80-90% of the time. I'm still going to be using my MacBook Black for school and that should last me a few years as merely a PPT presentation/video playback computer with light browsing and MS Word (i.e. what I do during school hours).

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

I had all the smaller Mac laptops, then when my 15" TiBook needed replacing I tried a 17" MBP. Awesome. For a pound you get a huge amount more screen real estate and pixels. Especially as a desktop replacement (DTR) box without an appended external display, the 17" is far superior for images work. My friend has a 15" and if we watch a movie it is always on the 17" even though both laptops are equally available, both high rez matte displays. Even her 10-year-old son prefers the 17" in his lap to watch movies.

I noticed the difference with the pixels, I love that extra screen real estate. I went to the Apple Store yesterday, the genius was trying to put me off the 17" despite what I said about my uses. He was a video editor and said the 15" was ample, whilst I agreed, I did state that the 17" just seemed a lot more worth it for my uses. He went on about the weight and size, but once he left I was really impressed with the 17"... it just looks like the Mac for me.

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

I have now carried a 17" everywhere for 5 years, including on campus and I consider the 17" size far superior. Obviously other folks disagreed - but I would bet that they are not Aperture/FCP users without external displays attached.

Yeah, the lack of an external display is disappointing, but my current setup doesn't allow for one. I'd have to lump it off the table regularly. I don't think I'll use Aperture so often, but for things such as planning where it's handy to have PPT and Word side by side, it's a dream. At the moment I'm using the iPad as my second screen, emailing my PPT's over before I write my plans from them. But the MB Pro will just have much more real estate for me... I'm really pleased I went to the Apple Store as I was going to just go with the 15".

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

I routinely watch movies on the 17" MBP in my lap and far prefer the extra screen real estate and pixels. The difference is huge, do the math. Way worth a pound of weight.

Sounds great, how warm do they get when watching movies? I read a review that the MB Pro's (2011) run really hot when gaming because the AMD chips they're using make the fans start going, which is a shame.

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

No. SSDs are available on new MBPs at a fair price and I strongly recommend ordering your MBP with an SSD. The overall performance improvement is huge. I bought the 128 GB SSD and will upgrade to a larger OWC SSD when the warranty expires and/or I fill the SSD. I will also be replacing the optical drive with a 7200 rpm hard drive or with another SSD.

I have an issue with this, as part of the reason I'm upgrading is because of space, my iTunes runs 100GB's of music, from mixtapes, to albums that I've collated over the years. I'm a bit of a music nerd so with the 100GB's of music, I would like the 500GB hard drive minimum. I do have an external, but I don't wish to run iTunes through the external because I've heard it can be a pain. Also, I want my library there always. Not having to hook it up to receive it. I do want that overall improvement as I can imagine how swiftly it runs. But 128GB isn't big enough and the 256GB is too big, the 500GB is a joke price wise but I understand it's because of the technology. I do think the 7,200RPM is the way to go though as you stated. Is the difference that big?

Yes. But if you choose a hard drive rather than SSD get 7200 rpm.

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Most image pros much prefer matte displays. Personally glossy gags me, but you are the one who will be looking at it every day.

hmm... I don't know, the initial impression I got upon seeing a glossy screen was "wow" that's incredible and far better looking than mine. But I don't know if the high definition Matte makes for any such difference, I'd have to see one I guess. Would they have both in-store? I looked at one yesterday, it was silver all around the screen... is that standard on the MB Pro 17" or was that Matte?

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

As to high resolution, it definitely makes some text hard to read for my aging eyes - but I still prefer it for the effect it has on image viewing. The benefits of higher resolution is definitely something that ones eyes/brain learns to appreciate rather than something you look at and immediately appreciate unless you are an images pro.

Thanks for this, to my knowledge, they're great because everything seems smaller on the screen so you get to perceive more for what you have in front of you?

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

IMO probably yes, but forecasting 5 years out is a guess at best. 4-5 years is a more likely max for a heavy graphics app box. Most pros look to a 3 year life cycle.

Thanks, I can't imagine I'll buy a new one within 5 years, so I'm hoping it will. The fact that the graphics chip is so nice on this model (1GB VRAM is awesome).. I'm hoping it will last. But if not, I still think it's the best model to go for at this time.

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Answered above. 17" And I do not even need to qualify that as usually on the table. I have always mostly used my MBP in the field, and IMO the 17" is far superior.

Thanks, that means a lot considering I won't have the 'inconvenience' of lugging it around either.

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

15" rocks for commuter types hating an extra pound, not doing significant images work and/or hooked up to an external display much of the time.

HTH

-Allen Wicks

Thanks Allen, you've been a great help!

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Sierra is right in that my advice about the 17" being too large wasn't based on heavy duty video work or on sofa-based gaming. But hauling the thing around IS a major drawback. If you want the computer to be a proper laptop that lets you do what you want, rather than a "couch top" platform that you do not have to carry around, that's a different issue. I had assumed you were looking for a laptop for portability as well as capability...

Thanks gh, it wasn't for portability, but more so a 'couch-top' as you put it. But really, it's a replacement desktop mainly with the basis for sitting with it on the couch on weekends. Basically, I don't have any room for a permanent desktop and would like to have something bigger in ways, even though I find my MacBook 13" has served me well these past three-four years or so. As everything is, it's more so a luxury now that I have the option to use something that's bigger and I think I'll really appreciate that.

Thanks gh

[mduell]

5-6 years is too long of a timeframe to plan on keeping it. Can you imagine using a Core Duo/2GB today and to be using it for another year? Miserable. Plan on 3 maybe 4 years max and spend accordingly.

[kenna]

Originally Posted by mduell 

5-6 years is too long of a timeframe to plan on keeping it. Can you imagine using a Core Duo/2GB today and to be using it for another year? Miserable. Plan on 3 maybe 4 years max and spend accordingly.

Thanks Mduell, was that what was in the MB Pro 17" 5 years ago?

[Spheric Harlot]

Yes.

Core Duo (not Core 2 Duo), and 2 GB RAM maximum.

[kenna]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Yes.

Core Duo (not Core 2 Duo), and 2 GB RAM maximum.

Point noted, thanks. 4 years it'll be tops then most likely. Thanks for this. Surprising how fast technology moves even with all the talk of it doing so...

Still going with the 17 inch though... can't wait to get it now. 3 day dispatch because of the configuration and then fast delivery. The man in the Apple Store said they could do everything in store for configurations... but if I'm going to go with the Matte screen and the 7,200 RPM drive, then it's likely not to be the case. Probably be ordering next week depending on this card. Works out around $220 a month for 15 months. But hopefully pay it off in bigger chunks!

[Waragainstsleep]

Silver bezel means its a matte display. Black is glossy.

[Spheric Harlot]

Yes, and?

[kenna]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Silver bezel means its a matte display. Black is glossy.

Thanks, just found this out at the checkout. Going to go with:

8GB RAM
Matte option - as that's the one I viewed at the AppStore and I liked it... I actually thought it was the glossy
2.2 i7 processor
7,200RPM 500GB HD.

@ the price, but it's affordable... just going to dent the amount I save each month. Does everyone here buy them outright cash up front? I've never paid in instalments before, but it makes sense for my savings this way considering it's 0% interest.

[kenna]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Yes, and?

I asked this question, he was doing me a favour. Didn't realise that I viewed a Matte screen in the Apple Store. I just thought the 17" came with a different design feature. Think I prefer the black outlining on the screen, but the silvery looks good too. But for non-reflection, it's really good like my MacBook is at the moment. I think the LED backlit screens must make them look better as well as the increase in pixels... as I much prefer my iPad's clear screen to this current MacBook I have.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by kenna 

Thanks Mduell, was that what was in the MB Pro 17" 5 years ago?

Early 2006 were Core Duo MBPs, those are relative dogs. My Oct 2006 17" MBP is a 2.33 GHz Core 2 Duo with 3 GB RAM (the max was 3 GB for that box, not 2 GB). It runs Photoshop fine, Aperture just OK but slow. I do a restart and run Aperture all by itself to help cope with the limited RAM. It has a new 7200 rpm hard drive that helps performance. I probably would still be using it except for the cup of hot chocolate spilled into the keyboard that killed the keyboard, switch, FW bus and DVD drive. It is now relegated to sedentary backup box with USB keyboard and mouse.

-Allen

[SierraDragon]

Good choice. Enjoy!

-Allen

[kenna]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Early 2006 were Core Duo MBPs, those are relative dogs. My Oct 2006 17" MBP is a 2.33 GHz Core 2 Duo with 3 GB RAM (the max was 3 GB for that box, not 2 GB). It runs Photoshop fine, Aperture just OK but slow. I do a restart and run Aperture all by itself to help cope with the limited RAM. It has a new 7200 rpm hard drive that helps performance. I probably would still be using it except for the cup of hot chocolate spilled into the keyboard that killed the keyboard, switch, FW bus and DVD drive. It is now relegated to sedentary backup box with USB keyboard and mouse.

-Allen

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Good choice. Enjoy!

-Allen

Thanks Allen, shame about the old MB! At least your ex-gf didn't smash it (what happened with mine after I'd had it a few months )

I'm researching Matte against Glossy now, but think I'm set on Matte, I'm at my screen for hours at a time and glossy is too powerful at times. Hoping the LED lighting will still improve the screen quality greatly over my MB 2008 model as well as the increase in pixels.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by kenna 

...how warm do they get when watching movies? I read a review that the MB Pro's (2011) run really hot when gaming because the AMD chips they're using make the fans start going, which is a shame.

Top laptops do run hot when under meaningful load, but within design conditions, and the new MBPs are real-world operationally way cooler than the older Mac laptops like the G3s. Basically, no big deal.

-Alllen

[kenna]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Top laptops do run hot when under meaningful load, but within design conditions, and the new MBPs are real-world operationally way cooler than the older Mac laptops like the G3s. Basically, no big deal.

-Alllen

Thanks, lastly, would anyone recommend waiting until the re-design next year? I'm thinking they might be incredible on battery life and may opt for a 16GB ceiling which would dramatically increase it's life.

Just don't want to get the 3GS for five years rather than the iPhone 4... If that makes sense.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by kenna 

Thanks, lastly, would anyone recommend waiting until the re-design next year?

No.

Normally I tend to wait if important improvements are clearly in the pipeline. Like I waited for the Core 2 Duo in 2006, and like I waited for months with my chocolate-damaged MBP waiting for Sandy Bridge. Sure there will be improvements at the next upgrade but nothing that I foresee that I would consider worth waiting for.

I'm thinking they might be incredible on battery life and may opt for a 16GB ceiling which would dramatically increase it's life.

Battery is darn good already, and the MBP will take two 8-GB DIMMs now (16 GB $1500 at OWC). We just have to wait for 8-GB DIMM prices to fall, and they will.

Note too that Apple may take something away at the next iteration. Like the EC/34 slot which can be a life-cycle extender. Or like they just did with the iMac and make third-party drives not work, forcing users into Apple's expensive HDs and slower SSDs. A huge deal that changes the whole value of the iMac boxes in my analyses, but none of the pundits except me seem to even notice let alone care.

Of course, Thunderbolt will allow tacking on almost anything, which may make the iMac limitation less problematic because it is a desktop box. However such a move would be a bigger deal for a mobile box. I have not yet fully digested the tech ramifications of what Apple did to iMac drive firmware. OWC commentary at: http://blog.macsales.com/10146-apple...acs#more-10146

I do recommend that folks looking for small displays, light weight and low powered boxes wait to see what Apple has planned for the Macbook Air Sandy Bridge updates.

-Allen

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by kenna 

Thanks, lastly, would anyone recommend waiting until the re-design next year? I'm thinking they might be incredible on battery life and may opt for a 16GB ceiling which would dramatically increase it's life.

The next iteration will almost certainly be a complete re-design, probably taking its cues from the MacBooks Air.

The following is conjecture; nobody knows:

It will probably feel *dramatically* faster, as the chipset will allow (actually already allows, but it's not implemented on current hardware) addition of an SSD cache - which will lessen the drag of the hard drive.

It will possibly eliminate the optical drive, leading to a substantially less bulky case design while maintaining battery life.

It will possibly eliminate the bulky Firewire and Ethernet ports, allowing slimmer case design.



So, with the current generation, you get the ideal cross between dongle-less full backwards-compatibility, yet fast, new tech (Thunderbolt, Sandy Bridge, 6 Gbps S-ATA). You can always add an SSD to the current machines in two or three years, when prices have come down to sensible cost per gigabyte, giving the machine a tremendous boost at that time.

I recommend jumping on the current revision.

It's fresh out the door - and waiting for the next revision to get you out of the sucker's game that is buying hardware doesn't really get you anywhere, as you can postpone any purchase forever.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Note too that Apple may take something away at the next iteration. Like the EC/34 slot which can be a life-cycle extender.

There really isn't anything on the current books (other than camera, audio port, and mic - none of which are going) for which Thunderbolt isn't a technically superior replacement.

That includes the EC/34 slot.

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Or like they just did with the iMac and make third-party drives not work, forcing users into Apple's expensive HDs and slower SSDs. A huge deal that changes the whole value of the iMac boxes in my analyses, but none of the pundits except me seem to even notice let alone care.

If you'll move that huge head of yours to the side a bit, you can probably see a window reflected in the mirror you're preening yourself in. There's a whole world out there, you know. (Just like there's a huge number of graphics pros happy as clams with their glossy displays - you can usually tell the really busy pros from the fact that they DON'T have time to complain on the internet. They're far too busy happily using their useless tools to make money.)

No, seriously: I've been waiting until more is known.
http://forums.macnn.com/58/imac-emac...s/#post4076572

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The next iteration will almost certainly be a complete re-design, probably taking its cues from the MacBooks Air.

I don't agree with this. The unibody design was adopted to make it quicker and cheaper for Apple to retool its production lines. There were advantages regarding rigidity too which are not to be sniffed at, but the real point was so they could make revisions to the case in software. It literally costs them nothing to add or remove a new port for example. The original MBP was essentially the same design as the last G4 PowerBooks so you could argue that design/style was around for 5 years. The Unibody machines aren't even 3 yet.

The MBP will eventually lose its optical drive but if it happens on the next iteration its going to be a fairly long time coming. I don't see the ethernet port going yet either though I suppose it could be supplemented with a dongle (not a USB one - too slow).
It'll be interesting to see what Apple uses the space for. They could fit a second HDD (maybe go back to a 9.5mm limit or dump the HDD too and install an SSD or two. That would allow them to get much thinner, though sticking with one or more HDDs would give much more room to fill with battery.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I don't agree with this. The unibody design was adopted to make it quicker and cheaper for Apple to retool its production lines. There were advantages regarding rigidity too which are not to be sniffed at, but the real point was so they could make revisions to the case in software. It literally costs them nothing to add or remove a new port for example.

Is there any documentation that this is the reason, or are you merely speculating?

They'll surely stay with unibody design - it's just that the machines will look rather different.

And if it's trivial to remove a port off a machined enclosure by changing the template file, wouldn't it be equally trivial to resize the case to a thinner design?

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

The original MBP was essentially the same design as the last G4 PowerBooks so you could argue that design/style was around for 5 years. The Unibody machines aren't even 3 yet.

The machines before that - the titanium Powerbooks - were around for two and a half years.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

The MBP will eventually lose its optical drive but if it happens on the next iteration its going to be a fairly long time coming. I don't see the ethernet port going yet either though I suppose it could be supplemented with a dongle (not a USB one - too slow).

It's going to be very difficult to make the enclosure any thinner without killing the Ethernet port.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

It'll be interesting to see what Apple uses the space for. They could fit a second HDD (maybe go back to a 9.5mm limit or dump the HDD too and install an SSD or two. That would allow them to get much thinner, though sticking with one or more HDDs would give much more room to fill with battery.

Like I said - moving the battery around to allow a slenderer, tapered design and an SSD cache, possibly using the same SSD formats as the MacBook Air currently uses.

[kenna]

Thanks to all for the feedback, I really appreciate it. I'll purchase it at the end of this week and hopefully have it in the next 2-3 weeks following it's dispatch date.

I'm going with the 8GB's RAM, Anti-Glare Matte display and 7,200 RPM HDD. So that up's the dispatch to 3 days instead of within 24 hours. I had thought of buying directly from the Apple store as they offer discount now, but I don't see them making modifications such as this in the store itself? If so, then I'll buy at the end of the week though. I'm also going to have another trip to the store, possibly tomorrow take one last look at the glossy to Matte, but I used my mum's/mom's MacBook yesterday (the white new one) and I think I prefer the Matte display on my old MacBook for the fact that I stare at it for hours and can imagine glossy making my eyes go funny, especially as I'm usually worn out when I'm working at the end of the day.

[Waragainstsleep]

Kenna, your MacBook has a glossy display too.

Spheric, The PowerBook G3s went through several case versions and each one involved complete redesigns and all new parts. The TiBooks were short lived because the screen hinges were way too fragile and it was utterly retarded having to replace what was then a $1400 LCD panel for a busted $5 hinge or two. The panels were glued into their titanium casings.
The alu PowerBooks were much easier to assemble and repair but still involved pressing and moulding new parts when Apple wanted to change a port or something like. They didn't do this all that often but their were still several different part numbers for both top and bottom cases as well as the display lids.
With unibody they stuck to the same case material for the first time in a while. While they look very different, assembly wise they simply turned the bottom half upside down and put a sheet of glass over the screen. As with the iMacs since the G5, the overall design became a more iterative process. The unibody process is the ultimate in that respect because it is so easy for them to adjust the details of the design. Its all automated CNC machines and lasers. The previous aluminium cases had separate internal structural components and bits of plastic trim making it much more awkward and therefore expensive to change.
There is a certain amount of speculation going on with that analysis, I haven't seen the production lines first hand, but its mostly common sense when you look at how these things are made.

There is potentially a couple of millimetres that could be shaved off the bottom of the current design by losing the tapering to the base, though I suspect it would be a little too angular for Apple's liking that way. The ethernet port is the limiting factor after the optical drive goes but I don't think Apple could eliminate it altogether just yet. Wireless isn't fast enough and nor is USB. The ethernet connector is actually much larger than it needs to be. All the pins are along the bottom edge so a custom dongle could be the way around that. Still a bit inconvenient though. Perhaps that patent for the folding port will finally be put to use.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

If you'll move that huge head of yours to the side a bit, you can probably see a window reflected in the mirror you're preening yourself in.

Very civilized...

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Very civilized...

I apologize, but this bit:

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

A huge deal that changes the whole value of the iMac boxes in my analyses, but none of the pundits except me seem to even notice let alone care.

tripped my narcissism detector into overload.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

There is a certain amount of speculation going on with that analysis, I haven't seen the production lines first hand, but its mostly common sense when you look at how these things are made.

It seems that investing into this initially expensive process will allow Apple to save a lot of costs in the long term, all while manufacturing at unrivalled quality.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

There is potentially a couple of millimetres that could be shaved off the bottom of the current design by losing the tapering to the base, though I suspect it would be a little too angular for Apple's liking that way. The ethernet port is the limiting factor after the optical drive goes but I don't think Apple could eliminate it altogether just yet. Wireless isn't fast enough and nor is USB. The ethernet connector is actually much larger than it needs to be. All the pins are along the bottom edge so a custom dongle could be the way around that. Still a bit inconvenient though. Perhaps that patent for the folding port will finally be put to use.

I doubt it. Folding ports are a nice idea, but they're fiddly and prone to failure. Apple even removed the port flap on the Airs, opting for a more angular design.

A custom dongle makes absolutely no sense - as these machines come with 10Gbit Thunderbolt. If they add a dongle solution (which I'm sure they will), it sure won't be a custom socket.

Also, "just yet" is "early 2012", and I'm pretty sure the situation will look different then.

[kenna]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Kenna, your MacBook has a glossy display too.

I don't think it is? The MacBook Black? Late 2007/early 2008 model? It doesn't look like a glossy screen at all?

But my mum has a new MacBook model which is definitely glossy... I've looked at both and I do quite like my screen that bit more, even though I imagine the pixel density is rubbish in comparison.

I'm going to go to an Apple store at some point this week though and make my final decision. Tempted to go today in fact really. In fact I'm gonna dash now, be back.

[Spheric Harlot]

All 13" laptops Apple have ever sold have been glossy.

And except for the 2010 revision of the MacBook Air, they have all had exactly the same resolution and pixel density.

[Waragainstsleep]

It is glossy. All MacBooks are glossy. 2006-Present. Yours may just be a bit grubby or something.

I'm not sure I like the idea of folding ports either and I suspect that Thunderbolt docking stations will be a popular system but ethernet is still too widely used. I think you have to be able to jack your £1800 laptop into a network port without getting a docking station out. Even in 2012.
Anyone know if there are plans to do TCP/IP over thunderbolt?

[kenna]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

All 13" laptops Apple have ever sold have been glossy.

And except for the 2010 revision of the MacBook Air, they have all had exactly the same resolution and pixel density.

Thanks, that's strange, I guess it's because it isn't an LED screen that the glossiness isn't as great.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

It is glossy. All MacBooks are glossy. 2006-Present. Yours may just be a bit grubby or something.

I'm not sure I like the idea of folding ports either and I suspect that Thunderbolt docking stations will be a popular system but ethernet is still too widely used. I think you have to be able to jack your £1800 laptop into a network port without getting a docking station out. Even in 2012.
Anyone know if there are plans to do TCP/IP over thunderbolt?

Thanks, I'm going with grubby haha and because it isn't LED.

So, I went to the Apple Store and spoke with one of the geniuses, she was much better than the last one I met last week.

We placed two 17 inches side by side and went through some different albums with iPhoto, I placed Safari on side by side with bbc's website and generally had a good go with each. I enjoyed using the Matte screen more so because of the lack of reflection and consistency. What I thought was better on the glossy was the truly vivid colours that it conjured up, however there were some photographs that looked even better on the Matte. So, I've decided to go with the matte even though I think the black border is nicer in ways, the matte border with the black edge doesn't look as nice, IMO. But I do like the all aluminium look. So, I'm excited now, ordering at the end of the week and thank you very much to all who have helped!!

I'm now going to get into Final Cut studio and enjoy using the more Mac intensive apps

[kenna]

BTW, do you know this express card slot 34 card reader? Does it take an SD card? And if so, do I need to buy something in order for it to do so?