[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by subego 

It kinda seems like the clock wasn't your property in the way you were led to imagine.

Was given in a wrapped box marked "To: Alex"

[subego]

I'm missing some context here. If it's yours, why was it a big deal you hid it?

I had things which were mine in name, but it was made clear I didn't really own it until I was responsible enough for it. Was it like that?

[OAW]

I think what Brass is saying is that while it was given as a gift breaking it created a precarious situation. I give my kids gifts all the time. But that doesn't give them license to trash them just because they are "theirs". It's a matter of kids having respect for the hard work that went into the benefits they enjoy.

OAW

[Poliphilo]

I agree that the difference between smacking and beating is common-sensical. I know it when I see it. But laws can't be drafted that way. They need to be precise.

How does the law determine whether or not the parent was upset? A smack to most people's mind is an open-handed slap to the buttocks. But isn't a fierce open hand slap to the face worse than a moderate corrective jab to the shoulder with a fist?

Those who support the anti-smacking ban (I am not one of them, let it be said in passing) opt for a blanket ban on all forms of physical aggression towards children. The only alternatives are no law or the necessity of dissecting gossamery distinctions between acceptable and unacceptable physical violence.

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by OAW 

I think what Brass is saying is that while it was given as a gift breaking it created a precarious situation. I give my kids gifts all the time. But that doesn't give them license to trash them just because they are "theirs". It's a matter of kids having respect for the hard work that went into the benefits they enjoy.

OAW

bingo

[subego]

Originally Posted by OAW 

I give my kids gifts all the time. But that doesn't give them license to trash them just because they are "theirs".

Honestly, I think it does. If it doesn't it's not really theirs.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Poliphilo 

But laws can't be drafted that way. They need to be precise.

You're absolutely right. Shaddim's definition is problematic for legal purposes, but unless I'm missing something, OAW's could easily be translated into legal terms.

[brassplayersrock²]

It's the lesson to be thankful, and to show that, be careful of how you handle the shut that people give ya. Lots of my students over the years have had the ability to destroy whatever was given to them at home and just be given another, but if they pull that in class, no more of that thing. I've even had a parent come in demanding why I hadn't given his son a homework folder like the other kids, and after I explained to him how his son decided to mistreat it, and rip it in half, he told me just to give his son a new folder.

I never did give him a new folder, and eventually, after the student had gotten into trouble for losing so much of his homework due to it just being stuffed into the backpack for a couple of weeks; the kid's father actually came back and thanked me for teaching the lesson of keeping your stuff in good condition; and gave me a new pack of folders.

[Athens]

What was on the law books in Canada was pretty problematic before it was altered in 1998

Section 43 of the Criminal Code, which came into force in 1892, reads:

Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.

The question which the courts got stuck with was what is reasonable under the circumstances. The debate that followed the challenges before it was changed in 2008. Government didn't want every trivial slap and spanking to result in a criminal act against parents and basically didn't want to be interfering with parenting.

A. Opinion of the Majority

The majority of justices in Canadian Foundation for Children, Youth and the Law upheld s. 43 on the basis that it protects only parents, schoolteachers and persons who have assumed all of the obligations of parenthood. Further, it maintains a risk of criminal sanction if force is used for non-educative or non-corrective purposes, and limits the type and degree of force that may be used. The words “by way of correction” in s. 43 mean that the use of force must be sober and reasoned, address actual behaviour, and be intended to restrain, control, or express symbolic disapproval. The child must have the capacity to understand and benefit from the correction, so that s. 43 does not justify force against children under two or those with particular disabilities.

The words “reasonable under the circumstances” in s. 43 mean that the force must be transitory and trifling, must not harm or degrade the child, and must not be based on the gravity of the wrongdoing. Reasonableness further implies that force may not be administered to teenagers, as it can induce aggressive or antisocial behaviour, may not involve objects such as rulers or belts, and may not be applied to the head. While corporal punishment itself is not reasonable in the school context, a majority of the Supreme Court concluded that teachers may use force to remove children from classrooms or secure compliance with instructions.

This was the first opinion of the challenge in 2004. In the end because it conflicted with other sections of the law regarding assault section 43 was removed and spanking was effectively illegal.

[subego]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

It's the lesson to be thankful, and to show that, be careful of how you handle the shut that people give ya. Lots of my students over the years have had the ability to destroy whatever was given to them at home and just be given another, but if they pull that in class, no more of that thing. I've even had a parent come in demanding why I hadn't given his son a homework folder like the other kids, and after I explained to him how his son decided to mistreat it, and rip it in half, he told me just to give his son a new folder.

I never did give him a new folder, and eventually, after the student had gotten into trouble for losing so much of his homework due to it just being stuffed into the backpack for a couple of weeks; the kid's father actually came back and thanked me for teaching the lesson of keeping your stuff in good condition; and gave me a new pack of folders.

I'm all for teaching that lesson by way of letting the kid lose out because they trash what's theirs. What was done to you is a different method.

I know this'll sound sappy, but giving a six-year-old interest in how stuff works is a gift. What is a clock to a six-year-old?

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by subego 

Honestly, I think it does. If it doesn't it's not really theirs.

So if you gave someone one of your most treasured possessions as a gift and they said "Thanks for that but to be honest I don't like it at all" then threw it on the floor and stomped it into dust, you wouldn't feel a little disrespected?
There is a bunch of ways that enforcing a "don't trash your gifts/possessions" rule is important. Chiefly, kids don't tend to pay for anything. Kids who are allowed to wreck their toys without punishment tend to grow up into ungrateful, spoiled adults with no concept of the value of money and/or hard work.

How many family heirlooms would have been destroyed if people didn't restrict their children's ownership? I still shake my head when watching those reality TV auction shows where the kid has taken something a relative spent years making/collecting/saving for so they can sell it to buy an Xbox or some other piece of crap that won't last more than a year or two.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

So if you gave someone one of your most treasured possessions as a gift and they said "Thanks for that but to be honest I don't like it at all" then threw it on the floor and stomped it into dust, you wouldn't feel a little disrespected?

I might. What I should feel is that I need to take more care to whom I give my most treasured possessions. Caveat giftor.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

There is a bunch of ways that enforcing a "don't trash your gifts/possessions" rule is important. Chiefly, kids don't tend to pay for anything. Kids who are allowed to wreck their toys without punishment tend to grow up into ungrateful, spoiled adults with no concept of the value of money and/or hard work.

Not having the possession is a punishment. For whatever reason it may not be enough, but that doesn't change its status.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

How many family heirlooms would have been destroyed if people didn't restrict their children's ownership?

If your ownership is restricted, it isn't ownership.

It's a fine idea to restrict a kid from wrecking a family heirloom. If you do that in any way other than not giving it to them until they're responsible enough to take care of it...

Well, what exactly were you expecting?

[Poliphilo]

Really, subego? I don't think the argument that kids shouldn't intentionally break their toys is a very controversial one.

[subego]

Did I say kids should intentionally break their toys?

[Waragainstsleep]

Well said 'Philo. (Welcome to MacNN btw)

You "give" your kids precious things in order to try and teach them about the responsibility of looking after things which are valuable. If you never let them own anything, they'll never learn that responsibility. If you let them do what they want, they'll never learn respect. That last sentence applies to way more than just owning stuff but definitely covers owning stuff too.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

If you let them do what they want, they'll never learn respect. That last sentence applies to way more than just owning stuff but definitely covers owning stuff too.

Meh.

The kid is surrounded by things where if they trash them, they'll face bigger consequences than being deprived of what they trashed.

Plus, I'm smarter than the little shit. I can convince them this totally disposable item needs to be respected.

[lpkmckenna]

Athens is completely wrong: spanking by parents is legal in Canada.

[ghporter]

Part of a child's development includes identifying and testing boundaries. They test those boundaries because that is how they assure themselves that the boundaries exist-and that tells them that someone is looking out for them. Even if they "hate" the whole idea at the time. Establishing and enforcing boundaries is essential in child rearing because without those boundaries the child fails to develop trust and self confidence. The worst situation is when a child has a learning disability and parents act like the "poor kid is stricken" with some sort of major deformity-and don't even try to control what the kid does. So the child starts out with bad dyslexia or attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder, and winds up being a teen that is impossible to control. Lack of parenting is what makes the problems these children will have to face.

Boundaries do not need to involve any sort of violence, whether or not you think a swat on a 4 year old's butt is "violence." Boundaries must, however, exist and be enforced, and there should be pretty consistent agreement between everyone who acts as a parent in the child's life. Our son often stated that it "wasn't fair," because he has me and his mom, plus a pair of godparents just a short drive away, and his aunt and uncle whom we visit frequently, all acting similarly as his "parents." Not that we were all identical in what we let him get away with, but we did all have a similar set of expectations and similar ways of enforcing his rules. And interestingly enough, even though he's not a "20-something millionaire" (yet), he's a pretty good person who seems to have managed to avoid some of the potholes in life's road that I wound up running straight through.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by subego 

Ah. I understand. My dad's low-key setup worked for me along the same lines. 99% of the time he didn't get mad at me, he got disappointed. I think had he gotten mad all the time, it would have been much easier for me to reject it out of hand.

OTOH, actually getting mad enough to yell was such a rare experience, it made the point hard, just like you said. I had caused this calm, measured, rock of a person to lose their shit, and felt horrible for it.

Agreed, it's a terrible feeling.

That's a pretty epic fail. Did he come home early?

Yes, way early. He was supposed to be out of town until early the next morning.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Oh snap! I totally forgot about that!

When coming up in the 70s the dichotomy of getting a new Hot Wheels set was that A) you'd be the coolest kid on the block (until one of your friends got a newer one), and B) those orange tracks could be uh "re-purposed" at any moment to tax that a*s!

And a heavy tax it was.

Wasn't that the worst? The anticipation of the whupping was usually way worse than the whupping itself! I'd much rather just get it over with.

It was horribly embarrassing. As a kid you're generally trying to earn your father's respect and the whole experience of exposing that a$$ for taxation was mortifying.

Oh snap are you saying you were a runner? If so we have something else in common my friend. Even though I knew that would only make the whupping worse ... I instinctively would dash to the other side of a table or even out the front door if I knew it was coming. Eventually my mom learned to just grab my arm and get it over with. All that "I'm gonna whup your a*s. Go to your room and wait for me there!" would likely end up with me trying to crawl out the window. I remember one time she totally outsmarted me. In the house growing up we had deadbolt on the front door that was keyed on both sides. We usually kept it locked with the key inside the lock to use when needed. I was in trouble for something and as usual I made a mad dash for the front door. The key was gone. FAIL!

The good news is you can count on little miscreants doing something stupid.

Yeah, I was a runner alright, but like you said; only from my mother. There was a tinge of mistrust that she'd handle the forceful disciplinary action with enough skill not to do irreparable harm mixed with a little self-confidence that I'd eventually tire her out or do something that would make her laugh and diffuse the situation. Running from my father would've seemed futile, like locking yourself away in the bedroom from the villain in a horror flick only to turn and see him sitting at your desk with the belt and a cheshire grin on his face.

I'm sure it seemed like a really good idea at the time!

Ewww. He had some ol' swill too. Stuff he'd never drink so I'd take a couple pulls then replace it with water to cover my tracks. Well there's no cover for getting straight busted with the bottle out.

Well like they say ... it's a thin line between bravery and foolishness. Even though I was much taller than my mother as a teen I simply could not raise my hands to her even if I wanted to. The mental intimidation factor was just too ingrained at that point. And going up against my father was simply unthinkable.

Totally agreed. I could've never raised a hand to either. For one thing my mother was very ill toward the end of her life and she was quite frail. The thought would never have crossed my mind. My dad? Hell no. I was stupid and headstrong, but not that stupid.

[Waragainstsleep]

Parents support teachers right to hit everyone else’s children

[Poliphilo]

Regardless of whether or not smacking is acceptable, I think everyone can agree that there are a lot of other equally effective ways of disciplining children.

When I played up as a kid, my mother used to ban me from watching television, serve me oatmeal for dinner, forbid me from going out on the weekend.

I'd rather be smacked.

[calverson]

Sure I was spanked at home. At school in Good Old South Africa I got caned.

I didn't call the teacher a faggot ever again.

[calverson]

From Wikipedia:

South African schools continued to use the cane to emphasise sporting priorities well into the late 20th century, caning boys for commonplace gameplay errors such as being caught offside in an association football match, as well as for poor batting performance in cricket, not applauding their school team's performance sufficiently, missing sport practice sessions, or even "to build up team spirit".[11] The use of corporal punishment within the school setting was prohibited by the South African Schools Act of 1996.

True Story. Although it didn't quite end in 1996...

[subego]

Buttocks or thighs?

[calverson]

Originally Posted by subego 

Buttocks or thighs?

It was the buttocks–which is humiliating and painful in itself.

[Shaddim]

Judge William Adams beats daughter for using the internet - YouTube

Spanking or abuse? I say abuse. There's no cause for that type of beating and the language is completely uncalled for. Plus, HE'S A JUDGE. I really hope his constituents get a good look at this and see who they've elected.

I took a few beatings that were this bad, or worse, but it didn't happen when I was a teen. If that were my dad, and he tried that back when I was 16, there would have been a fight. He would have won, but he would have had some marks on him before it was over. Sonuvabitch wouldn't have gotten any rest in that house afterward either, because when he went to sleep I would have went after him with a strap.

[lpkmckenna]

Yeah, I hope that bastard gets fired and charged. Sadly, this will also hurt the girl's quality of life, so it's a no-win situation for her.

EDIT: looks like this was 2004, so she doesn't live at home anymore, I assume.

[Athens]

Brutal, I just watched it. The spanking part itself was border line in my books. But the language, the parents used and for the type of (offence) she committed is what makes it abuse in my books.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I would have went after him with a strap.

Because the closest I had to corporal punishment was being forced to drink awful health-food concoctions, I've got a good 20 pounds and 6" of reach over my dad. However, he did mention once he fights really dirty.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Judge William Adams beats daughter for using the internet - YouTube

Spanking is supposed to be disciplinary. That is sadism. Abuse, Assault, call it what you want its wrong and I would happily take my belt to that guy right now, see how he likes it.

[andi*pandi]

I couldn't watch it all. I don't have words for what that creature is... but it isn't father.

[subego]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

I couldn't watch it all. I don't have words for what that creature is... but it isn't father.

I have no desire to watch it. I'm fine taking everyone's word.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Spanking is supposed to be disciplinary. That is sadism. Abuse, Assault, call it what you want its wrong and I would happily take my belt to that guy right now, see how he likes it.

Agreed. His first mistake was doing it when he was angry. He was hitting her to make himself feel better, not to discipline her. That's when it becomes a beating and not a spanking.

[OAW]

My observations of the video ....

1. In my initial post in this thread I commented on the various types of corporal punishment and what we called them in the African-American community when I was coming up. What we saw here would be considered a whupping. A classic use of the belt below the waist ... so I definitely wouldn't call that child abuse. Period.

2. The father threatened to hit her with the belt in the face at one point. He didn't do it ... but personally I thought he went too far by even saying it. Bring it down a few notches dude.

3. The girl seemed a little old to be getting a whupping like that. As I said before, if you haven't gotten your kid in check by the time they are that age then it's a little late to be trying to do so by getting physical.

4. The girl seriously needed a lesson in Parent Management 101. She most definitely made her punishment far worse by refusing to turn over like her father (and her mother) told her. NEWS FLASH little girl! Your father is already pissed off about you disobeying him with your use of the computer. Pissing him off even more by not turning over and taking your butt-whupping is not a very smart move. The mother was trying to help the girl. Took the belt from the father and told her that she was going to finish the punishment once she turned over. A big favor in the situation because generally speaking ... a whupping from a man is going to hurt a lot more than one from a woman. And let's keep it real here .... it's supposed to hurt. That's pretty much the whole point. But the girl still took way too long to do what she was told. When she finally did the mother swatted her once, said "Thank You!" and walked off. Tried to defuse the situation. Of course by then the father is even more pissed and it simply wasn't going to be over until she demonstrated obedience to him. Because at the end of the day ... that was the fundamental issue. Unfortunately for the girl ... that didn't seem to ever dawn upon her. Either that or she was intentionally trying to push his buttons further. She did setup the hidden camera after all.

5. The video is supposed to be from 2004. It's nearly 2012 and all of a sudden she decides to throw her father under the bus with this? That seems a little suspect on its face considering how self-serving the description was. So it was the "ataxic cerebral palsy" that made her have a "passion for technology" and that's why she was illegally downloading music and games on the internet? Exposing her family to tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills and fines that she certainly wasn't going to pay for if the RIAA came calling. Jammie Thomas anyone? Oh but let her tell the story ... "Judge William Adams beats daughter for using the internet". Seems like someone still doesn't get it.

6. The video certainly looks bad. But let's keep it real ... any type of corporal punishment beyond a quick swat to the butt is going to look bad. And for some people even that is too much. The thing one has to keep in mind is what the video doesn't show. Namely, the behavior that led to her catching an ass-whupping like that in the first place. Because generally speaking, when it gets to that point with a kid that age ... the conversations and groundings and taking away of privileges aren't registering.

7. The ass-whupping she got was pretty bad. On the upper end on the scale IMO. Even took a couple like that myself back in the day. But one thing is for certain ... I wasn't innocent in the situation. So it was something that was totally avoidable by simply doing what I was told. Imagine that.

Let the excoriation begin ....

OAW

[Waragainstsleep]

It doesn't matter what kind of punishment you use to discipline a child, if you don't use it calmly, consistently and correctly, it isn't going to work. That guy was not disciplining her, he was taking out his own anger more than likely because he was embarrassed that she broke the law while he was a judge, or simply because she disrespected him when he clearly thinks pretty highly of himself. Its about his ego, not her indiscretion.

If he or anyone administered a 'whupping' like that to someone in the street, he'd be done for assault, no question at all. Just because some of us got worse when we were kids doesn't make it ok.

[Shaddim]

Yup. He wasn't calm, the beating was too long, and she's handicapped (she has cerebral palsy) and had problems with sorting out right from wrong at times. Also, you could hear him hit her on the head with the buckle off-camera. Ouch.

The thing that bothered me the most, however, was the swearing. Were it me, I would have been far less traumatized by the physical part of the spanking. Hearing my dad verbally abuse me like that would have been the worst part.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

If he or anyone administered a 'whupping' like that to someone in the street, he'd be done for assault, no question at all. Just because some of us got worse when we were kids doesn't make it ok.

I suppose my point here is … people want to get all bent out of shape about this because her father was trying to keep her in check about something that she still doesn't seem to comprehend that she was in the wrong about. Now let that had been a boy. And he was breaking into your house. These same individuals wouldn't have a word of objection if the cops shot him dead under the circumstances.

And as for the swearing … as much as you hear some teenagers cussing their parents up one side and down the other these days? Please!! I vividly recall GIRLS in college who would literally say on the phone "Mom you're so ****ing stupid!" I thought I had slipped into the Twilight Zone. I would sit there and wait for the mothers hand to appear out of the phone and smack the shit out of the little brat. Like what would have happened with my mother. But some people just don't see it like that. And then their spineless selves wonder why their demon kids constantly walk all over them. I come from the old school where your parents would say … "I brought you in this world and if you keep it up I'll take you out!" Some people just don't recognize the value in that because they are too busy trying to be their kid's "friend".

OAW

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by OAW 

I suppose my point here is … people want to get all bent out of shape about this because her father was trying to keep her in check about something that she still doesn't seem to comprehend that she was in the wrong about. Now let that had been a boy. And he was breaking into your house. These same individuals wouldn't have a word of objection if the cops shot him dead under the circumstances.

And as for the swearing … as much as you hear some teenagers cussing their parents up one side and down the other these days? Please!! I vividly recall GIRLS in college who would literally say on the phone "Mom you're so ****ing stupid!" I thought I had slipped into the Twilight Zone. I would sit there and wait for the mothers hand to appear out of the phone and smack the shit out of the little brat. Like what would have happened with my mother. But some people just don't see it like that. And then their spineless selves wonder why their demon kids constantly walk all over them. I come from the old school where your parents would say … "I brought you in this world and if you keep it up I'll take you out!" Some people just don't recognize the value in that because they are too busy trying to be their kid's "friend".

OAW

Dude, I just want to say, you're from a pretty ****ed up area. No offense, not trying to insult you, but maybe there's a cultural aspect of this that one of us isn't fully appreciating here. What I saw in the video wouldn't have been cool around here, mostly due to the guy losing his temper, and swearing at her up one side and down the other. Also, like I said before, her having cerebral palsy adds to it all.

BTW, looks like judge Adams could get bounced from his job.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Judge William Adams beats daughter for using the internet - YouTube

Spanking or abuse? I say abuse. There's no cause for that type of beating and the language is completely uncalled for. Plus, HE'S A JUDGE. I really hope his constituents get a good look at this and see who they've elected.

I took a few beatings that were this bad, or worse, but it didn't happen when I was a teen. If that were my dad, and he tried that back when I was 16, there would have been a fight. He would have won, but he would have had some marks on him before it was over. Sonuvabitch wouldn't have gotten any rest in that house afterward either, because when he went to sleep I would have went after him with a strap.

I support spanking, but this sh*t is way overboard.

Not only was spanking unnecessary for what she did, which was downloading games. Spanking her 3 times would be more than enough. The judge had to come back for a 2nd round of spanking. WTF?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by OAW 

1. In my initial post in this thread I commented on the various types of corporal punishment and what we called them in the African-American community when I was coming up. What we saw here would be considered a whupping. A classic use of the belt below the waist ... so I definitely wouldn't call that child abuse. Period.

There is certainly a massive disconnect between whites and blacks on this issue. I don't know any black people who would have condemned this father's actions, and I don't know any white people who would approve of it. Just from personal discussions on the matter, I've learned how wide the divide really is here.

And I'm sure child services dockets in the US and Canada are loaded with black kids who were taken away by white social workers from parents who insist they've done nothing wrong.

As a white liberal Canadian, my only comment is: there is nothing positive being gained by this method of child discipline, whether the child is 16 or 6. That's what makes it abuse.

Now we can all argue whether I or OAW "played the race card first."

EDIT: BTW, here's another video by the same girl, this time she's tearing up the piano with video game tunes. I think we can agree, she does have a passion for video games. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Ma6g2vPRg

[Tiresias]

Where I'm from it's illegal for a parent to smack their child.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

There is certainly a massive disconnect between whites and blacks on this issue. I don't know any black people who would have condemned this father's actions, and I don't know any white people who would approve of it. Just from personal discussions on the matter, I've learned how wide the divide really is here.

And I'm sure child services dockets in the US and Canada are loaded with black kids who were taken away by white social workers from parents who insist they've done nothing wrong.

As a white liberal Canadian, my only comment is: there is nothing positive being gained by this method of child discipline, whether the child is 16 or 6. That's what makes it abuse.

Now we can all argue whether I or OAW "played the race card first."

EDIT: BTW, here's another video by the same girl, this time she's tearing up the piano with video game tunes. I think we can agree, she does have a passion for video games. Hillary piano 2007.wmv - YouTube

Wow pretty racist... "White parents dont beat kids, but black parents do, look at all the black kids taken away from parents....."

Sickening. So you don't like me complaining about Asian immigrants and the problems associated with it on a cultural level but you will make blatantly racist comments about about black people just because they are black.

Hate to burst your bubble but spanking is a cultural issue not a skin color issue. White and Black folks in Alabama are more likely to spank kids then white or black folks in New York City...

And the disproportional rate of Black kids in state care has more to do with the disproportional income gape and poverty along with racism then with anything actually being "racially" different about blacks.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Dude, I just want to say, you're from a pretty ****ed up area. No offense, not trying to insult you, but maybe there's a cultural aspect of this that one of us isn't fully appreciating here. What I saw in the video wouldn't have been cool around here, mostly due to the guy losing his temper, and swearing at her up one side and down the other. Also, like I said before, her having cerebral palsy adds to it all.

No offense taken. As for the "area" ... how would you even make such a comparison? My location isn't listed ... and yours is listed as TAN. Whatever that means?

As for whether or not there are "cultural" differences when it comes to corporal punishment ... well that certainly could be the case. Though I would probably use the term "demographical" instead. I think there are differences of viewpoints about this that are generational, regional, educational, ideological, and perhaps even some that are ethnical (is that even a word? ).

Perhaps those from older generations tend to be more supportive of corporal punishment than those from younger generations?

Perhaps those from the South or the Midwest tend to be more supportive of corporal punishment than those from other areas of the country?

Perhaps those who are more socially conservative tend to be more supportive of corporal punishment than those who are socially liberal?

Perhaps those who are black tend to be more supportive of corporal punishment than those who are white?

Or perhaps those who were disciplined with corporal punishment as kids tend to be more supportive of it than those who were not?

There's one thing that's for sure though. However one answers these questions ... there are bound to be plenty of exceptions when it comes to a topic like this. We are all the products of our experiences and our upbringing. That is what molds us and shapes our worldview.

Now it's no secret that I'm African-American. But I'm also 40ish. College-educated. Center-left politically for the most part but to the right in certain areas. Born and raised in the Midwest. Mother was a teacher and Father was an auto worker which afforded us a middle class lifestyle. Parents and grandparents from the South who personally experienced Jim Crow as opposed to reading about it in some book or watching it on TV. Brought up in the Baptist tradition which firmly believed in "Spare the rod and spoil the child." In a time when it was "Yes Sir" and "No Ma'am" to any adult ... especially your parents ... and without question when you were receiving a tongue lashing for misbehavior. You "talked back" at your peril. You had better stay out of "grown folks business" unless asked. And you most definitely better mind your "tone" when speaking to your parents. So one can say that I grew up in a "cultural context" so to speak where obedience to your parents was of paramount importance. When my grandparents told my father not to go past certain streets that wasn't optional. It was not subject to debate. And my father's opinion about it all was of no consequence. Obedience was critical because there were certain written and unwritten rules that one had to follow in order to survive. Because a black male teenager caught in a white neighborhood could easily lose his life in those days. At the hands of the police or the neighborhood residents. Even being in a "buffer zone" business district after dark could result in a severe beatdown. So when my father decided to do what he wanted to do and and take that route anyway because it was a shortcut on his way to visit some girl .... my grandfather taxed that ass. And as my man ebuddy said "And a heavy tax it was!". Because obedience was quite literally a matter of life and death. So a generation later when my parents were raising me and my siblings ... is it any wonder that we had best have ourselves in the house by the time the street lights came on? You see the danger then wasn't Jim Crow ... but rather getting caught up in the streets or gang violence or the dope game. And I had the type of parents who would rather tax my ass to keep me on the straight and narrow ... as opposed to me ending up with Big Tiny taxing my ass in a much worse way up in a prison cell. And definitely as opposed to me ending up pushing up daisies because I wouldn't listen.

OAW

[OAW]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

There is certainly a massive disconnect between whites and blacks on this issue. I don't know any black people who would have condemned this father's actions, and I don't know any white people who would approve of it. Just from personal discussions on the matter, I've learned how wide the divide really is here.

I wouldn't go that far. There are plenty of blacks who don't believe in corporal punishment. Just as there are plenty of whites who do. But generally speaking I think you are onto something. Let me put it like this ....

Say you took a random sample of 1000 blacks and 1000 whites ... told everybody that the girl was being punished for stealing music and games over the internet in defiance of her parents ... and then showed them that video. I'd be pretty comfortable betting my next paycheck that far more whites would disapprove than blacks.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

And I'm sure child services dockets in the US and Canada are loaded with black kids who were taken away by white social workers from parents who insist they've done nothing wrong.

Perhaps. But social workers tend to be "liberal do-gooder" types. And "liberal do-gooder" types tend to disapprove of corporal punishment in general.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

As a white liberal Canadian, my only comment is: there is nothing positive being gained by this method of child discipline, whether the child is 16 or 6. That's what makes it abuse.

We'll have to agree to disagree. But I'll give you a quick example of how it can be net positive. When I was coming up "peer pressure" was a constant like it's always been and still is. Pressures to throw rocks or snowballs at buses from an overpass because one of your buddies thought it would be funny. Pressures to take some stranger's car and go joyriding with some fools who won't have a dime to help bail you out if you got caught ... just to prove you ain't no punk. Pressures to pop this pill or snort this powder. But for me the fear of what my parents would do to me if I did any of that was much stronger than the potential ridicule from my peers if I didn't. And that's what kept me on the right path even when I wasn't mature enough yet to not get caught up in any of that on my own.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Now we can all argue whether I or OAW "played the race card first."

Right!

OAW

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by OAW 

No offense taken. As for the "area" ... how would you even make such a comparison? My location isn't listed ... and yours is listed as TAN. Whatever that means?

As for whether or not there are "cultural" differences when it comes to corporal punishment ... well that certainly could be the case. Though I would probably use the term "demographical" instead. I think there are differences of viewpoints about this that are generational, regional, educational, ideological, and perhaps even some that are ethnical (is that even a word? ).

I think you're right. I do, however, think that the following is a proper spanking... albeit, on the more harsh end of the scale.

kid gets hit for acting tough on facebook - YouTube

I don't see abuse there. He's calm, if a bit vocal, and he's not swinging as hard as the judge. He also isn't threatening the face, hitting the arms, telling him he doesn't deserve to live there, etc.. Like I said before, it's about the person's state of mind. If you're pissed off, and you go after a kid with a belt of switch, you're in the wrong. It's that simple.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I think you're right. I do, however, think that the following is a proper spanking... albeit, on the more harsh end of the scale.

kid gets hit for acting tough on facebook - YouTube

I don't see abuse there. He's calm, if a bit vocal, and he's not swinging as hard as the judge. He also isn't threatening the face, hitting the arms, telling him he doesn't deserve to live there, etc.. Like I said before, it's about the person's state of mind. If you're pissed off, and you go after a kid with a belt of switch, you're in the wrong. It's that simple.

Did I just see what I thought I saw? A kid got his ass whupped and was made to put himself on blast on YouTube! Woooooowwwwwww!!!!!!! That is pure comedy gold right there!!

I see what you are trying to say here. But in all honesty ... the kid didn't get a very bad whupping at all. The uncle was barely swatting the boy. You see he wasn't really being hurt by the belt ... that little "circle dance" is just a natural reaction. Boy I remember it well.

The real punishment here was the public embarrassment he was made to suffer. And let's not gloss over the fact that the uncle was in no shape, form, or fashion refraining from the use of profanity. And justifiably so IMO. Sometimes these kids need to know you mean business and that lets them know that in no uncertain terms. All I will say to your comment about whupping a kid when you are pissed off is .... you make a valid point. But the reality is that corporal punishment very often doesn't go down in such clinical fashion. When things have gotten to that point it is typically a very emotionally charged situation. The admonition to not mete out corporal punishment when you are angry isn't there because having that "state of mind" when you do it constitutes abuse in and of itself. It's there as a caution against crossing the line with the physical punishment. The risk of which increases the more angry one is. But if you don't cross the line then "no harm no foul". Regardless of whether you were angry or not.

The uncle had better be careful though. As I was saying earlier, some "liberal do-gooder" types might try to get him hemmed up on charges behind all that. Because the kid was such the victim of "abuse". Boo freaking hoo!!! But these same people wouldn't blink an eye if the cops pulled a "Rodney King" on the kid for engaging in some of that "fake ass gangsta sh*t" they see in movies or hear on rap records out in their neighborhood. You can best believe that it'll be a whole different ball of wax then.

OAW

PS: I'm really going to have to ask the uncle to pull his pants up. Come on man ... you can represent better than that!

[Athens]

OWA I was shocked with what you said too, I just assumed you didn't watch the video and was being general with corporal punishment on its own which I do support myself. What I see in that video is just over the line for me. Im not going to criticize your opinion, every one deserves a opinion. I don't agree with some of what you said. But agree with a lot of what you said too.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by OAW 

I wouldn't go that far. There are plenty of blacks who don't believe in corporal punishment. Just as there are plenty of whites who do. But generally speaking I think you are onto something. Let me put it like this ....

Say you took a random sample of 1000 blacks and 1000 whites ... told everybody that the girl was being punished for stealing music and games over the internet in defiance of her parents ... and then showed them that video. I'd be pretty comfortable betting my next paycheck that far more whites would disapprove than blacks.

When I was coming up "peer pressure" was a constant like it's always been and still is. Pressures to throw rocks or snowballs at buses from an overpass because one of your buddies thought it would be funny. Pressures to take some stranger's car and go joyriding with some fools who won't have a dime to help bail you out if you got caught ... just to prove you ain't no punk. Pressures to pop this pill or snort this powder. But for me the fear of what my parents would do to me if I did any of that was much stronger than the potential ridicule from my peers if I didn't. And that's what kept me on the right path even when I wasn't mature enough yet to not get caught up in any of that on my own.

Parents are trying to create lasting memories that will keep their child from stupidity. My folks were pretty keen on my environment and from the sounds of it, so were yours. Sometimes the crime is more urgent than the punishment and vise versa, but overall I'd say we turned out 'ite. Otherwise, I believe support for corporal punishment is a mix of generational and socio-economic and while I support it, did not and could not lift a hand to my daughters, but then... I've never felt urgent enough for them that this was necessary.

The good news is I don't have to watch the video either. Kid gets you on camera acting stupid; kid- 1, you- 0 either way you cut it. He'll either be ruined publicly for being stupid or ruined behind bars for being criminal. He left a mess that I hope cleans up well.

[Athens]

That video just made National news here and was just played out. Judge Adams is now on suspension and being investigated. Worse hes a family judge and rules on these kind of cases....