[juanvaldes]

Originally posted by anarkisst:
<STRONG>

I'd like evidence on that.
</STRONG>

okay... but first you have to take a look at how the great war started. HUGE military stock-piling. All over 'empires' control over colonies in africa and asia. War starts. War ends. Too many had died at the hands of new powerful weapons which were mobilized using old world tactics. Too many died.

After the war we forced Germany to sign a contract that forced them to not make weapons x,y,z. So what they did to not break this treaty (until they were ready) was to invent weapon x+,y+,z+. then they started just outright breaking tonnage treaties, etc...

So when WWII started everyone was out classed by Germany's new weapons. But I do agree that fighting them was a fight for freedom. But the great war aka WWI was not. We were fighting so empires could continue to control vast empires around the world.

[Demonhood]

here is a higher quality version of the photo i posted earlier.
this one is courtesy of msnbc.com:
http://homepage.mac.com/~demonhood/manaloneWTC.jpg

One source reported that the man in the shot was heard yelling "Is there anybody in there? Does anyone need help?" And he was met with silence.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Demonhood ]

[cheerios]

Thanks for the pic, demonhood... THAT'S what all this should be about. Not revenge, not Afghanistan or any other middle eastern country, not Bin-Laden. It's about helping people deal with this **** , and helping out the people who were hurt. Screw war, screw revenge, screw killing. It's about taking care of those who are still living, not sending more to their deaths.

I was talking to a friend yesterday, and the first thing he says is, "My uncle is probably dead." No inflection, nothing. Just that.

I couldn't get to sleep last night, after seeing pictures of people jumping to their deaths, so as not to be burned alive in the buildings.

There's soo much moreto this than violence and fury, and all the people calling for blood... well, I agree with the fact the person who caused this should be punished, but until we find out who, thoughts of justice, not revenge but justice, should wait.

::dons flame retardant suit, to preprare for expressing pasifist views to a bunch of angry people screaming for blood::

[The Emperor's Bad Teeth]

Thank you, Cheerios. I agree.

Whoever did this must be punished, but right now we need to make sure who did it while we take care of the victims and search for more buried under the rubble.

[Voice of America]

No thank you. You are wrong. No more "feel your pain" politics.

They will feel our pain. When we find those that would kill us. They will feel pain when we kill them. It's the only solution. We know who they are. We can find them where they hide. We will kill them and they will be stopped.

[Mskr]

Originally posted by mike one:
<STRONG>

i spew neither hatred, nor fear. i spoke my mind and thoughts. clearly you can't read things with a grain of salt.</STRONG>

Ok, mike, what do you mean by:

<STRONG>
I think it is time for Israel to do what it should've long ago, stop giving up land, stop compromising with people who don't pony up to their half of the deal. and to do away with this human waste. there are families of people in palestine, rasing children in the hopes that they will be suicide bombers, so called matyrs. there is only one way to deal with these people.</STRONG>

You are advocating "do[ing] away with this human waste". Sounds a lot like hatred to me. According to you, we should wipe out Palestinian families that are "raising children to be suicide bombers". Do you have even a shred of evidence that parents are teaching their children to do this?! Sounds to me like you're making sh!t up to rabble-rouse and incite an emotional response when a rational response is called for. Saying things like "there is only one way to deal with these people" (my emphasis added) lead me to believe that you mean Palestinians and Palestinian families. This is racist hatred. If you mean that terrorists should be rounded up and killed, then say THAT and skip all the Israeli/Palestinian rhetoric that you're spewing.

<STRONG>
and clearly you don't have a clue. the above quote indicates this. if you don't know why these attacks happened then you've been living your life with your head in a whole. and just by chance yesturday you poked it out and saw what was happening, and thought to yourself, "how and why is this happening?" while most people understand why and who, and how without waiting for CNN to spell it out for them.
</STRONG>

Whether or not I have a clue cannot be divined from one post that I've written about the subject. I've never said that I'm a Middle East scholar. I'm just a citizen with thoughts and feelings on this subject, just as you have. But, I am favoring a rational response to the attack that our country suffered yesterday, not an emotional one. I don't have my "head in a whole" [sic]. I try very hard to keep up with current events, and have especially been concerned with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict of late. NO PUBLIC CITIZEN knows why the attacks happened yesterday. People are speculating and analyzing in a vacuum, but NO ONE KNOWS. You may THINK you KNOW, but you DO NOT unless you are coordinating the investigations currently underway. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Didn't people also KNOW that Muslim extremists bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995?

<STRONG>
and finally if i want to offer my thoughts and prayers up again, i will, regardless of your petty "no need to state the obvious again" crap.

this is an open forum, i'll state whatever the hell i want to, however many times i want to, without some jackoff telling me what i can and can't / should or shouldn't write.</STRONG>

I'm sorry if I touched a nerve with that. I didn't mean it to be petty, and I'm sorry that you choose to interpret it in that way. However, since you'd already stated this in a
previous post I felt like you were being redundant. Forgive me for thinking it rather obvious that approximately every American citizen is already doing this, and trying to help in any way they can.

This is and open forum, and I'll state whatever the hell I want to, as well. My opinions are my own, and I can say them if I like to. I wasn't saying that you have invalid thoughts or feelings, simply that they were obvious and trite. :shrug: I'm not sorry that my opinions differ from yours.

Since you apparently have trouble reading and understanding what I have written let me spell my position out to you:

1) The parties responsible that remain in the USA should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. This will most likely involve many people being arrested and investigated. Those who were involved should be punished under our legal system, those who were arrested and investigated but not involved should be released as soon as it is determined that they were not involved.

2) The parties responsible who are in foreign countries should be extradited to the USA for trial and sentencing, again under our legal system. If this is not possible, then they should be prosecuted under the appropriate international laws. Note that this does not involve assassination and "kill[ing] these fu#king ba$tard$ before they can kill any more innocent people" (quote from your first post). "Innocent until proven guilty" ring a bell?

3) Actions should be taken against countries that sponser terrorists. What form of action should be determined by the degree of involvement. I personally don't think that wholesale slaughter of Palestinians could ever be justified by a government's involvement in any act of terrorism, even one this horrific and tragic. Note also that the US Government would be involved in this if it turns out that bin Lauden is the perpetrator of this terrorist act, as they helped to train him.

4) Legal prosecution of other terrorist organizations should be given the maximum allowable priority and resources within reasonable limits; we shouldn't spend more money on this than, say, national defense.

5) National security to deter and otherwise prevent actions of this nature in the future should be analyzed and implemented according to their merit. This should not involve the infringement of the natural rights of US citizens or citizens of other nations, as spelled out by our Constitution. That's right, I feel that we should treat citizens of other nations according to the Constitutional rights we give our own citizens; there is no room for discrimination in the Declaration of Independance's phrase: "all men[1] are created equal, that they
are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" ([1] "men" here, of course, meaning all members of the human race).

I'm not sure where I gave you the impression that we should "send them money and tell them we are so sorry for siding with their enemy in some conflict". You may have been making stuff up off of the top of your head because you can't figure out that there are people who would disagree with your "kill them all, let God sort them out"-esque policy. I would absolutely NOT condone the US support of any terrorist organization, nor do I advocate ignoring the problem, BUT I don't think that we should "wipe out" Palestinians simply because there are Palestinian terrorists. There are American, Christian terrorists, too. Should we wipe out American Christians?

You say that you are not "saying that we should kill 1000s of civilians, who are caught in the middle of these conflicts, whom are innocent", but that "we need to eliminate the people who fan the fires, who encourage this behavior, support and harbor this behavior, people who are the enemies of freedom". Well, people who are ignorant, not given the opportunity to learn, and fed propaganda from their religious and political leaders are only guilty of one thing: circumstance. You are apparently one of these people, since you think that, on the whole, Palestinians support the terrorist acts that some Palestinians perform. What evidence do you have to support this? Oh, and by the way, the burden of proof falls upon you, who are making these (albeit implicit) claims. You know, if you lived in another country and had these sorts of feelings, you may find that you'd be one of the people who would "be eliminated" according to your criteria ("fan[ning] the fires..." etc.).

I am hoping that you are just reacting emotionally to the horror, shock and outrageous attacks that happened yesterday, and not truly thinking before you post.

[gwrjr33]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
<STRONG>
back me up here, dammit.</STRONG>

Sorry guy but it was one of them "pantywaist liberal gephardt-huggers" (Woodrow Wilson) who got us into WW1. Of course, he did that after winning a presidential campaign that trumpeted how he had kept us out of the war. I don't have much use for Woodrow Wilson.

I'll try not to let you down too often.

[vega24]

"Those that would rather buy temporary freedom through temporary peace deserve neither freedom nor peace." -Anonymous

I hope that the government of this great country finds the people who are responsible for this cowardly act and I hope they exact the means to remove them from the face of the Earth.

May God be with the victims and their families, the rescue workers and God bless America.

[gwrjr33]

Originally posted by anarkisst:
<STRONG>
Anyways...the reason (until yesterday for some people) you can get out of your house, walk to your car, go to work or drive to the airport and fly anywhere unheeded is why we fought in WWII...our freedoms buddy...our freedoms and others.

They have been violated again on OUR SOIL and it is time to wake up and return the action...fight for our freedoms. Period.</STRONG>

Read my post again. I didn't say anything against our involvement in WW2. I was writing about WW1.

[steve666]

Those bombs and missiles we saw attacking Kabul last night were from opposition forces to the Taliban. What we should do is maintain contact with these groups and tell them we will be attacking Taliban positions at a certain time and be ready to move in and take over the country.

Offer a reward of $1 billion dollars to the new leaders of Afghanistan if they capture and hand over Bin Laden dead or alive. This way we will be targeting the Taliban and not Afghanistan itself, we will have Bin Laden, and they will have enough money to start a rebuilding effort and hopefully eliminate that country as one of our enemies........................................... ..................................

[nana2]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>And armed officials won't do any good. Shooting a gun on an airplane is utter lunacy, and terrorists know this. They don't care, of course, since they'll die anyway, but the marshals will care, and everyone knows that they'll care. That will make them hesitate to use the gun, and that's all a terrorist needs.
</STRONG>

Rubbish, undercover armed agents DID work for many years. Basically these guys were trained to sit like a normal "victim" then when the bad guy walked past or he had a clear shot *bang*. No struggle with passengers resulting in needless stabbings and deaths. Obviously you want to avoid pumping rounds into the wings or center body fuel tanks, but a 9mm hole in a plane is no big deal, especially compared to the alternatives when a terrorist gains control. Unfortunately it appears they were removed due to cost-cutting, and a complacency that such things wouldn't occur again.

[mr. natural]

Originally posted by cheerios:
Thanks for the pic, demonhood... THAT'S what all this should be about. Not revenge, not Afghanistan or any other middle eastern country, not Bin-Laden. It's about helping people deal with this **** , and helping out the people who were hurt. Screw war, screw revenge, screw killing. It's about taking care of those who are still living, not sending more to their deaths. ... (snip)... There's soo much more to this than violence and fury, and all the people calling for blood... well, I agree with the fact the person who caused this should be punished, but until we find out who, thoughts of justice, not revenge but justice, should wait.

Among the few voices of reason here, it is cheerios - a woman - who has expressed it best. Thank you.

Voice of America: The U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines want YOU. Please run, do not walk, run and enlist NOW.

[Earth Mk. II]

Originally posted by Voice of America:
<STRONG>No thank you. You are wrong. No more "feel your pain" politics.</STRONG>

This isn't "feel your pain" politics... this really isn't (shouldn't be) politics at all.

...But if you *must* politicize it, label it correctly: "Feel my pain" or "feel our pain" politics. This is a personal tragedy for many, and it affects us all.

[MacmanX]

BBC World's Stephen Evans is reporting on crowds of people who are gathering near the disaster site in NYC and are cheering emergency workers who are entering and leaving the site. This act of defiance is exactly what we need. We should be honoring the heroism of American's helping one another and grieving for our lost brothers and sisters. Politics are just meaningless when held up to the light of the lives lost� the lives forever changed� the strength of our community. The world has changed, all we can rely on is each other now.

Edit: Here's a link to a story of the strength of our community: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1540962.stm

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: MacmanX ]

Edit: Now they are reporting that Americans are attacking Muslims and others who LOOK Arab in the streets. People are also firing guns at Mosques! Well, those of you who wanted violence have got it. And this at a time when we should be coming together and when our emergency crews are needed to deal with real emergencies. Look what your hate has brought... http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1540371.stm

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: MacmanX ]

[3.1416]

Voice of America: The U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines want YOU. Please run, do not walk, run and enlist NOW.

This is silly. One does not have to be a member of the military to advocate military action. Our forces are all volunteers, who were aware of the possibility for combat when they signed up.

dons flame retardant suit, to preprare for expressing pasifist views to a bunch of angry people screaming for blood

Nope, just honest disagreement. It is *vital* to identify and eliminate those responsible for this atrocity. Failure to do so will not only leave these terrorists able to commit further attacks in the future, but will also cause others to believe that they can commit similar acts with impunity. If the terrorists are supported by a foreign government, then that government must be punished severely. We must send the message to terrorists and nations which protect them that if they murder American citizens, they will pay with their lives.

[mikithecrackhead]

Offer a reward of $1 billion dollars to the new leaders of Afghanistan if they capture and hand over Bin Laden dead or alive. This way we will be targeting the Taliban and not Afghanistan itself, we will have Bin Laden, and they will have enough money to start a rebuilding effort and hopefully eliminate that country as one of our enemies.

originally posted by:steve666
right on steve, We have to fight fire with fire and strike NOW. If women and children get in the way, wipe them out too. They have had plenty of time to get out of the way.
<font color = red> Remember the US has not gotten this far by fghting fair. The reason England lost the war is because the english fought a clean fight and the US didn't, </font>the reason the native indians don't control america is because the US fought dirty battles,
IT IS TIME WE GO BACK TO THE WAY WE USED TO FIGHT, THE SAME WAY OUR ENEMIES OUR FIGHTING US. It's time to get dirty and Bomb the hell out of the countries that are responsible. <font color = green> russia and china supply iraq and bin laden, afganistan shelters bin laden, ALLL MUST DIE. civilians get in the way, they must die too </font>

[mikithecrackhead]

hey, I've been here longer than feb 1,2001....I just noticed that

Originally posted by mikithecrackhead:
<STRONG>
IT IS TIME WE GO BACK TO THE WAY WE USED TO FIGHT, THE SAME WAY OUR ENEMIES OUR FIGHTING US. It's time to get dirty and Bomb the hell out of the countries that are responsible. &lt;font color = green&gt; russia and china supply iraq and bin laden, afganistan shelters bin laden, ALLL MUST DIE. civilians get in the way, they must die too &lt;/font&gt;</STRONG>

Didn't Bin Laden help force Russia out of Afghanistan? I don't think the Russians are friends to him. Do you really know enough of the subject at hand to make such a recommendation?

Do you think civilians in Afganistan, Iraq, or Russia deserve to be killed. If so, wouldn't that be the same line of thinking as the terrorists who committed this horrible act?

Severely punish those that planned and committed the crime. Do not kill innocent families that just happen to be from the same countries.

[Macintosh]

God Bless America.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by steve666:
<STRONG>Those bombs and missiles we saw attacking Kabul last night were from opposition forces to the Taliban. What we should do is maintain contact with these groups and tell them we will be attacking Taliban positions at a certain time and be ready to move in and take over the country.
</STRONG>

Genius, total genius. That's exactly how we ended up with these people. If we hadn't supported these groups Bin Laden fought with in 1979 he might not be such a patriot to these people. Afghanistan has been the most unstable nation in that region since the US backed mujahedeen took over. And exactly the reason why its so hard to get that govt. to hand him over to anyone much less the United States.

Its not wise to back any group we don't have control over esp in that atmosphere of Islamic Fundamentalism. One group might be worse than the next. We just need to go in and do the proper military operations and secure the areas we need to with a NATO ground force. No cutting deals with any group, no big old billion dollar rewards that might fall in the hands of another group that may one day turn on the Western world.

[cheerios]

Originally posted by mikithecrackhead:
<STRONG>
civilians get in the way, they must die too &lt;/font&gt;</STRONG>

Um... so you don't mind the fact that over 200 US civilians died? they just happened to get in the way of whoever decided to do this... do you realize you sound just like a fanatical loon yourself??? Everyone must die?!? C'mon, down that road lies nothing but mass murder and destruction. THINK people... innocent people do NOT deserve to die, even in retribution to something as horrific as this.

[TNproud2b]

They don't deserve to die, but that's what happens when your government does something dumb.

If you don't want America to be the world's policeman, then handle the problems for yourself....if you wait for the USA to do it, then don't try to cop a plea.

We nuked thousands of 'innocent' Japanese civilians in WW2 because their government did something stupid, remember?

We would do it again.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by nana2:
<STRONG>

Rubbish, undercover armed agents DID work for many years. Basically these guys were trained to sit like a normal "victim" then when the bad guy walked past or he had a clear shot *bang*. No struggle with passengers resulting in needless stabbings and deaths. Obviously you want to avoid pumping rounds into the wings or center body fuel tanks, but a 9mm hole in a plane is no big deal, especially compared to the alternatives when a terrorist gains control. Unfortunately it appears they were removed due to cost-cutting, and a complacency that such things wouldn't occur again.</STRONG>

I don't know why people keep saying there is no more Air Marshal program. They are specially trained FAA agents, with an academy in Atlantic City NJ. Read more here. The program is alive and well, and I am certain will be quickly expanded.

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: ThinkInsane ]

[mikithecrackhead]

we nuked thousands of 'innocent' Japanese civilians in WW2 because their government did something stupid, remember?

Our history is dirty, We also killed hundreds of black slaves, and Native american indian. If that is not enough US also raped their women.

[mikithecrackhead]

It is too late to bomb Kaliban, Their Diplomats have fled the country and those that are left (women and children) are digging trenches , preparing for a US attack. Those who did the damage in the US have gotten away with it, Osama bin Laden will not get caught and the US will suffer again.
Because once again, Colin Powell and the Bush administration is too slow. They where too slow for Saddam Hussein and they are a little behind on this latest incident. How many Americans have to die before something is done.
Who is the one with Alzeimers? has EVERYONE forgotten how Reagan took care of business?
The current Administration's lack of a reaction has quaranteed more american deaths at the hand of bin laden.

[gwrjr33]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
<STRONG>
Afghanistan has been the most unstable nation in that region since the US backed mujahedeen took over.</STRONG>

The instability of Afghanistan can be traced more accurately to the Russian invasion that preceded the war in which the mujahedeen emerged victorious.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by gwrjr33:
<STRONG>

The instability of Afghanistan can be traced more accurately to the Russian invasion that preceded the war in which the mujahedeen emerged victorious.</STRONG>

OK you are sort-of-right. At that point is when the bad got worse down there. It was more the peak of the turmoil not the start. But the nation itself was a hotbed of unstable governments since the 70s and there was a tug of war going on through military means since then. Here's the breakdown:

April 1978: First communist president takes control of Afghanistan in bloody coup.

1979: 80,000 Soviet troops pour over Afghan border to replace Communist leader with pro-Moscow Babrak Karmal. Its here when Bin Laden comes into the picture.

1980s: The mujahedeen a loose alliance of Islamic rebel groups, battles Soviet troops with the help of U.S. weapons and training.

February 1989: Last Soviet troops withdraw from Afghanistan.

April 1992: President Najibullah relinquishes power. Mujahedeen leaders seize Kabul and then turn their guns on each other.

1992-1994: Factional fighting kills at least 50,000 in Kabul, mostly civilians. Various warring groups sign four peace agreements, but fighting eventually resumes.

September 1994: The previously unknown Taliban rebels, an army of former Islamic seminarians, enter the fray.

September 1996: The Taliban drive President Burhanuddin Rabbani out of Kabul, capture the capital and execute Najibullah.

May 1997: A brief alliance between opposition forces and the Taliban collapses violently.

[cheerios]

Just wanted to share this with y'all... The pic is of a rock that is painted regularly on campus here at University of the Pacific in Ca. Usually it's covered with "Go water polo" or " Tri delt rules" and the like. Thought it was neat that someone took a pic of this.Rock in front of Khoury Engineering Building

[maxelson]

Originally posted by mikithecrackhead:
<STRONG>
IT IS TIME WE GO BACK TO THE WAY WE USED TO FIGHT, THE SAME WAY OUR ENEMIES OUR FIGHTING US. It's time to get dirty and Bomb the hell out of the countries that are responsible. &lt;font color = green&gt; russia and china supply iraq and bin laden, afganistan shelters bin laden, ALLL MUST DIE. civilians get in the way, they must die too &lt;/font&gt;</STRONG>

...and then, what will make us better than them?
By doing that, we would destroy that which defines us. Then who wins? They do. Irrevocably. Undeniably.
Thank you. Your quote above just made me take a more centered perspective on the whole event. You have taken me from a point of rage.
Justice. Not revenge. If we fall to revenge, we fall in so many ways.

[SteveTech]

I think we (Americans) all know what the U.S. must do...

Then after that we take our toys and go home. Time for the U.S. to start paying more attention here and less to the rest of the world - enough with all this aid to others, not when we have homeless still living on the streets here in NYC and around the country (and other social problems).

It will be interesting to see how many of the countries we've helped in the pass step up and help when it's needed most.

I never thought I'd feel this way....but I do.

Enough is enough!

[sek929]

Originally posted by mikithecrackhead:
<STRONG>
Our history is dirty, We also killed hundreds of black slaves, and Native american indian. If that is not enough US also raped their women.</STRONG>

Another "America is Satan" comment...

if you are going to point out eveil do so in a way that will show the entire human races attrocities. Far worse acts have been commited even before we were a country. Crusades, Spanish Inqusition, the expanding of the Roman emnpire that wiped out many nations, Sadam killing his own people (and family members), Staling killing thousands of his own people, etc.... I could go on for hours. Their are many sick individuals in thsi world and mistakes have been made. but to simply sit back and watch **** like this happen cannot take place. Kill all responsible and any countries who do not aid (READ: this does NOT include civilians.

[MikeM32]

Enough with the "america is evil" or "we got what we deserved" B.S.

If you truly think so I strongly suggest you GTFO!!

Mike

[scaught]

Originally posted by MikeM32:
<STRONG>Enough with the "america is evil" or "we got what we deserved" B.S.

If you truly think so I strongly suggest you GTFO!!

Mike</STRONG>

more of this "dont question our government" type actions. are YOU sure youre living in the right country?

[MikeM32]

more of this "dont question our government" type actions. are YOU sure youre living in the right country?

The real question is what the hell are you doing here if you dis-like your way of life so much?

What's that? ....... Huh? (silence, I figured as much)

Right...... the exact sort of "lets just roll over and let 'em screw us somemore" attitude Pacifism is one thing, but this is pure complacency. As if to say, "well I don't care about my way of life".

I've mentionned my feelings on many a foolish notion that changes in foriegn polivcy and so forth will just make this all "go away". I've posted about that in several threads on the issue already and I won't repeat it all again.

Put simply this isn't an issue of why they did this. It's what they did, and the innocent lives they used to make thier point.

What if I had an army marching down your street and beating down your door?

Perhaps my hypothetical army could kill your family and wipe out your entire world as you know it.

Will you just roll over then? Was it all your fault somehow? Would you care if it was?

Mike

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: MikeM32 ]

[steve666]

Originally posted by MacmanX:
<STRONG>BBC World's Stephen Evans is reporting on crowds of people who are gathering near the disaster site in NYC and are cheering emergency workers who are entering and leaving the site. This act of defiance is exactly what we need. We should be honoring the heroism of American's helping one another and grieving for our lost brothers and sisters. Politics are just meaningless when held up to the light of the lives lost� the lives forever changed� the strength of our community. The world has changed, all we can rely on is each other now.

Edit: Here's a link to a story of the strength of our community: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1540962.stm

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: MacmanX ]

Edit: Now they are reporting that Americans are attacking Muslims and others who LOOK Arab in the streets. People are also firing guns at Mosques! Well, those of you who wanted violence have got it. And this at a time when we should be coming together and when our emergency crews are needed to deal with real emergencies. Look what your hate has brought... http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1540371.stm

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: MacmanX ]</STRONG>

I agree that innocent people shouldn't be targeted, however there are arabs cheering in the streets on Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn, in Westbury, LI , Patterson, NJ, and even on campus at Florida State University. These people should have the absolute crap beaten out of them! Any non citizen arabs in this country should be deported immediately. They are an obvious threat. Any citizens caught celebrating should be deported and stripped of citizenship. The medai has suppressed footage of the arabs celebrating here to discourage violence. What happened to freedom of the press? What a disgrace. PLEASE contact your state senators, congresspeople, state department and white house and DEMAND that the US deports these maggots........................................... .................................

[steve666]

Miki, I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

Anyway, the reason I say we should aid the anti-Taliban forces is because they are already on the ground with weapons (they were the ones firing missiles at Kabul Tuesday night), and they don't give a rats ass about the US for or against because they are not islamic fundamentalists. We can go in with bombers and missiles aimed at govt buildings, military outposts, anywhere the Taliban has a strong presence. I think we should avoid civilian targets because they are not the perpetrators of the crime-most folks there hate the Taliban as much as we do. Hopefully this would avoid the use of American ground troops.

I agree that we react much too slowly. Reagan acted almost immediately-you're not supposed to give the enemy a chance to hide and escape. Giving the Taliban 48 hrs to turn over Bin Laden would give us the upper hand in world opinion and an excuse to use force. And believe me, force MUST be used.............................................. ......................................

[Demonhood]

looks like our government is posed to repeal our self imposed anti-assassination ban.
kind of crazy. but not unexpected.

[San Acoustic]

Steve, Afghanistan is called Russia's Vietnam because the Soviets were there for years and had to withdraw for the same reasons the U.S. got out of Vietnam. The Russians were there in an attempt to create a buffer zone next to their territory against rising fundamentalism.

The Taliban was only one faction of the country's fighters, and they emerged on top when all they all turned against each other after the Soviets pulled out. It had been a proxy war with the superpowers bankrolling each side.

The British tried it first in the 19th century � twice. They went into Afghanistan to create a buffer zone to protect India. They failed miserably, but the Soviet Union payed no attention to that and ended up the same way.

The Afghans care much more than a rat's ass about anyone who has gone in for whatever reason and have fought relentlessly each time. The mountainous country is built for guirrilla warfare, so pat solutions suggesting that it's easy pickings are incorrect.

Another war in Afghanistan likely would be another guerrilla war like Vietnam was, so to prevent that, political manouevring first is essential. That's why Bush is "asking" Pakistan to co-operate. Pakistan backs the Taliban and is bankrolling them now, despite it's own poverty-striken population.

And that's why U.S.-Russian co-operation is so essential. The Taliban were fighting Russia, and Russia has the place mapped to the nth degree and has a lot of inside information the U.S. needs.

As well, if the U.S. roars into Afghanistan, there's a strong possibility the Muslim world would see it as an attack against all of it. That's why Powell and Bush and all of officialdom keeps saying they don't know when it will happen. It likely will take more time than anyone wants.

So cool your jets and let the politicians do their job so it will be done properly.

[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: San Acoustic ]

[Kenneth]

I don't know someone brought it up or not, but my friend sent this link to me.ok if this isn't scarry as ****

Kenneth

[San Acoustic]

More was done with those than sharpening them.

[Demonhood]

did anyone see the footage of the British playing the American national anthem outside of their palace? there were quite a few British citizens at the gates, crying and waving small US flags. it was very moving. i almost couldn't watch it.

i'm sure you can find the video of it online somewhere.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Kenneth:
<STRONG>I don't know someone brought it up or not, but my friend sent this link to me.ok if this isn't scarry as ****

Kenneth </STRONG>

Please. People also find images in the clouds all the time. Smoke is no different. Any random pattern will tickle the brain's creativity center to look for any kind of recognisable structure.

It's what humans do.

[mikithecrackhead]

I am not saying america is evil or that america is right/ wrong, I am suggesting we fight fire with fire.
If they could kill inocent civilians why can't we return the favor? How many more inocent civilians have to die? War is War and civilians will die, it is inevitable. We let bin laden get away with this one. He will return again with more innocent victims to kill and we will again, be slow to retaliate

[Lagavulin]

Because killing innocent civilians is a bad thing perhaps? An Afghan, Palestinian or Iraqi innocent civilian matters just as much as a US one. I agree with Bush's resolve to punish those responsible or those that have harboured them, but surely this does not mean (and I'm sure it's not what he means) killing innocent civilians.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by mikithecrackhead:
<STRONG>I am not saying america is evil or that america is right/ wrong, I am suggesting we fight fire with fire.
If they could kill inocent civilians why can't we return the favor?</STRONG>

...because we then become no better than them. We become the same. Are you willing to pay that price?

[scaught]

Originally posted by MikeM32:
<STRONG>

The real question is what the hell are you doing here if you dis-like your way of life so much?

What's that? ....... Huh? (silence, I figured as much)

Right...... the exact sort of "lets just roll over and let 'em screw us somemore" attitude Pacifism is one thing, but this is pure complacency. As if to say, "well I don't care about my way of life".

I've mentionned my feelings on many a foolish notion that changes in foriegn polivcy and so forth will just make this all "go away". I've posted about that in several threads on the issue already and I won't repeat it all again.

Put simply this isn't an issue of why they did this. It's what they did, and the innocent lives they used to make thier point.

What if I had an army marching down your street and beating down your door?

Perhaps my hypothetical army could kill your family and wipe out your entire world as you know it.

Will you just roll over then? Was it all your fault somehow? Would you care if it was?

Mike

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: MikeM32 ]</STRONG>

im not going to carry out this argument any further in the face of the events that are still so fresh in our minds. but to carry the notion that our governments actions should not be questioned, and anyone who criticizes our government should "GTFO" is just inane. our constitution is founded on questioning the government. whats that first amendment again? i quite enjoy my way of life here in america, for i DO have the right to question my government when they do things i dont agree with. i can vote. etc.

[MacmanX]

Sorry, I lost my temper and a little dignity. I would just like encourage some of the above posters focus more on unity now, not hate.

Sorry!

[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: MacmanX ]

[steve666]

How come no one reads what I say? San Acoustic, my whole point is that we support the antiTaliban forces already on the ground so we don't have to send in ground troops. We support them in the air through bomb attacks on Taliban targets and the mountain areas where Bin Laden is believed to be hiding. This would take quite some time but it would limit us to mainly an air war (which we excel in), while suspected terrorists around the world are captured(which is already happening). Meantime we shore up our immigration rules, throw out all illegals and non citizen arabs including students, militarize our border with Mexico, tighten the border with Canada. Give a final warning to Syria, Iran, etc that if they support terrorists that ever attack the US again we will hold them responsible and be in a state of war with us................................................ ...............................

[San Acoustic]

did anyone see the footage of the British playing the American national anthem outside of their palace? there were quite a few British citizens at the gates, crying and waving small US flags. it was very moving. i almost couldn't watch it.

It's the British royalty's new image, Demonhood, since Diana died. Remember when the queen was accused of being cold-hearted and royalty was in the toilet? This is the New Royalty. All touchy-feely. Treat it a public relations. That family owns enough of the U.S. to make your eyes pop out, big chunks of New York City, just like it owns big chunks of London. It simply wants to make sure it keeps getting the rent.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by steve666:
<STRONG>How come no one reads what I say? San Acoustic, my whole point is that we support the antiTaliban forces already on the ground so we don't have to send in ground troops. We support them in the air through bomb attacks on Taliban targets and the mountain areas where Bin Laden is believed to be hiding..</STRONG>

I read it and I think its flawed. Because the theory of "the Enemy of my enemy, is my friend" concept doesn't work in this case. There is no guarantee that if we supported anti-Taliban groups that they would adopt a pro-American stance. They may very well turn out to be even more dangerous in the long run. We at one pointed helped fund Iraq hoping that it would help us gain ground in the Cold War. In retrospect I don't believe we are happy we did that.