[MikeM32]

That time was over with ages ago. I have no mixxed feelings or rage warping my senses here. But make no mistake, I am angry, and every American should be. My thoughts on this matter are clear, retaliation of massive proportions is mandatory. I saw this whole thing happen from the window where I work from the very first crash.

I respect most peoples wishes that this not turn into a slap festival, but hasn't it gone beyond that already? These heathens could attack us at any time from anywhere.

The nauseating thing is that I get the impression from many here that we should simply "roll over" and we should "change foreign policy". Almost as-if many are suggesting we shouldn't do anything at all.

Does anyone seriously think that changing foriegn policy and aide to other countries will suddenly make things better? These people will obviously do anything to make thier point, what makes anyone think they can be "reasoned" with? Our foriegn aide to other nations is for thier military personnel.

Let me repeat that....FOR THIER MILITARY PERSONNEL.

Soldiers prepared to die in battle. This is not to say that innocent lives aren't lost on both sides in those battles overseas that we may have assisted with, but these are a direct result of thier wars. We didn't force them to do specific things with any weapons we may have provided them. Guns don't shoot themselves.

We can worry about what to do about foreign policy later. We must focus on the matter at hand. The point would have been well enough made if the attack was simply on the pentagon itself, not that this can be excused either. But if your'e angry with our military assistance, you take it out on our military.

But this wasn't only an attack on the Pentagon, this wasn't even focused against our military. Military personnel are prepared to die if necessary, even in such a heinous attack. I served 2 years in the US Navy, and was prepared to go to war if necessary. I'd gladly die for our freedom. This attack was on thousands of civilians who are not fighting a war, and who did not swear an oath to uphold the constitution even at the cost of thier own lives. These people were going about thier everyday lives.

How can anyone here in good conscience actually suggest that we should just do nothing at all in retaliation? Should we just shrug it off and send a message to the world that we'll allow this to happen again? Does anyone seriously believe that if we just stop assisting other countries in thier battles that this won't happen again?

These people have no regard for innocent lives, they'll do anything no matter how heinous to wage thier holy war. They must be dealt with in the most severe fashion possible. We must send out a message that we won't be messed with like this again.

The ones that are making me nauseous aren't the ones angry and wanting retribution. It's the ones that simply think we somehow "deserved" this and we shouldn't do a damned thing about it. It's that sort of attitude that leads to these kinds of acts in the first place.

Be thankful you live in a country where your'e even allowed to voice such anti-nationalistic viewpoints while others serve for your freedom to do so. I'm not 100% happy with the U.S. 100% of the time either, but I'll fight and die for that thing we call freedom if necessary.

The sheer selfishness of people suggesting we should do nothing in retaliation makes me sick. Enjoy your'e freedom without taking any responsibility for it at all. After all, it's your right as an American to do so.

Keep remembering that you don't have to do a damned thing for your freedom until foreign aggressors are marching in our streets, beating down our doors, killing and raping our people, destroying our way of life itself

It's your country.

Mike

[Voice of America]

This will fall on deaf ears. Thank god our leaders in Washington know what is at stake.

[G Barnett]

Driving in to work today, I saw several people waving signs and banners advocating peace. I wish I'd've stopped to tell them what went through my mind at that point, so I'll say it here.

To all those advocating peaceful solutions, please, hold on to that sentiment, keep it dear in your hearts. In time, it will be useful, and helpful, and necessary when we finally pull back from whatever military actions we engage in. However, now is not that time. Now is the time to find those responsible and eliminate them. If a war is the only way to do so, then so be it.

If our military goes too far, speak up. You will have to be our nation's conscience during all of this, to keep us from becoming worse than that which we will be fighting against. Yes, an armed response is a horrible thing, and we need to be reminded of that fact. It is, however, the only response that will be understood by these people.

Hold on to your consciences; cherish and protect them. Unto you, the nation hands the guardianship of our very humanity.


G. Barnett

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Voice of America:
<STRONG>This will fall on deaf ears. Thank god our leaders in Washington know what is at stake.</STRONG>

I think it's more likely that people will get all pissed about Mike being so "insensetive" towards these "oppressed" people that had to resort to such "desperate" measures as this.

We need to strike back, hard.

[Korv]

Here here, Mike!

Let me give some background of where I am coming from. My political views are leftist. I decry American militaristic practices. I decry the US as the world's police forces. I am the first to critcise and vilify America's foreign policy atrocities. I am a liberal pansy and I love peace.

However, sometimes war is justified. There is ONE (and only one) possible response to this action. Left or right. Democrat or Republican. Liberal or Conservative. Dove or Hawk. The perpetrators of this act must be wiped off the face of the planet. Those who funded them must be killed. Countries who harbored them must be removed from the map. Individuals and groups who sympathise and support the hijakers and others like them need to be hunted down globally and erased. Any individual, organization, military, or government that stands in the way must be eradicated.

Deoes a strong American military response scare you?

Good. It should.

I never thought I'd be saying this, but Bush's reactions have been too tempered thus far. To me, the American flag has been a symbol of SHAME for the last ten years. Tuesday a strange thing happened. I saw an American flag flying on a highway overpass on my drive home. My eyes filled with tears and my chest filled with pride. In these dark times I take solice in one thing. Americans are standing together, our unity stregthened by these trials.

I wish peace to all those who desire it, and I wish John McCain were our president. "May God have mercy on them, because we won't."

[Edit]: G Barnett is right too. I will hold onto my beliefs, and there WILL be a time for peace. This, however, is not it.

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Korv ]

[Mskr]

Originally posted by Korv:
<STRONG>
However, sometimes war is justified. There is ONE (and only one) possible response to this action. Left or right. Democrat or Republican. Liberal or Conservative. Dove or Hawk. The perpetrators of this act must be wiped off the face of the planet. Those who funded them must be killed. Countries who harbored them must be removed from the map. Individuals and groups who sympathise and support the hijakers and others like them need to be hunted down globally and erased. Any individual, organization, military, or government that stands in the way must be eradicated.
</STRONG>

Well, I guess this will be my "all pissed" reaction.

NO PRIVATE CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY KNOWS WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS ATTACK.

Wait. Let that sink in for a second.

Now, think about what that means. We have been hearing a lot of speculations and fragments of reports of FBI investigations. What if these attacks were not supported by any other government, but small terrorist groups? What if everyone who took part in these attacks either a) died in the attack or b) is on US soil? Who do we declare war on?

IF a government did fund the attacks, does that REALLY mean that their country should be "removed from the map"? What does that even mean? We should nuke the country flat, killing the entire civilian population? THINK for one second what that means. Now, think about someone saying that the entire US population should be killed because of something our government did. NOW, do you think you're being a little bit extreme?

Right now, we have NO IDEA the extent of foriegn government involvement in the Setpember 11th attacks. We are angry and we want justice. We will get justice. However, I fear that the justice we will effect will not be enough; THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN ERASE THE PAIN AND SUFFERING THAT HAS HAPPENED, THERE IS NO COMFORT FOR THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS THAT WILL BE SUFFICIENT.

The people who died cannot be replaced. Killing innocent civilians will not bring them back or comfort their loved ones. We cannot "remove" countries from the map in order to salve our wounds. If our military reaction is not measured and surgical, we are only creating more problems for ourselves, NOT solving them.

The people who perpetrated the attacks and those who funded them are the ones who need to be brought to justice. If any government directly support the attacks, the leaders who were involved should be brought to justice. Other terrorist organizations must be brought to justice. All citizens of the world must stand together against terrorism. BUT no more innocents should die. DON'T think that all muslims are terrorist. DON'T think that all citizens from any country support their governments or their leaders. American muslims are not to blame, nor should they be punished. Please, don't let your anger turn into widespread, blind hatred to groups of people who have no part in the September 11th attacks.

And above all: THINK. CONSIDER. REASON.

[TNproud2b]

I prefer to remember those folks that said we shouldn't do anything - that it's our own fault.
The ones afraid to die for freedom - afraid to die for anything.
When all this is over we'll know who the true Americans are.

[scaught]

Originally posted by Mskr:
<STRONG>

Well, I guess this will be my "all pissed" reaction.

NO PRIVATE CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY KNOWS WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS ATTACK.

Wait. Let that sink in for a second.

Now, think about what that means. We have been hearing a lot of speculations and fragments of reports of FBI investigations. What if these attacks were not supported by any other government, but small terrorist groups? What if everyone who took part in these attacks either a) died in the attack or b) is on US soil? Who do we declare war on?

IF a government did fund the attacks, does that REALLY mean that their country should be "removed from the map"? What does that even mean? We should nuke the country flat, killing the entire civilian population? THINK for one second what that means. Now, think about someone saying that the entire US population should be killed because of something our government did. NOW, do you think you're being a little bit extreme?

Right now, we have NO IDEA the extent of foriegn government involvement in the Setpember 11th attacks. We are angry and we want justice. We will get justice. However, I fear that the justice we will effect will not be enough; THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN ERASE THE PAIN AND SUFFERING THAT HAS HAPPENED, THERE IS NO COMFORT FOR THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS THAT WILL BE SUFFICIENT.

The people who died cannot be replaced. Killing innocent civilians will not bring them back or comfort their loved ones. We cannot "remove" countries from the map in order to salve our wounds. If our military reaction is not measured and surgical, we are only creating more problems for ourselves, NOT solving them.

The people who perpetrated the attacks and those who funded them are the ones who need to be brought to justice. If any government directly support the attacks, the leaders who were involved should be brought to justice. Other terrorist organizations must be brought to justice. All citizens of the world must stand together against terrorism. BUT no more innocents should die. DON'T think that all muslims are terrorist. DON'T think that all citizens from any country support their governments or their leaders. American muslims are not to blame, nor should they be punished. Please, don't let your anger turn into widespread, blind hatred to groups of people who have no part in the September 11th attacks.

And above all: THINK. CONSIDER. REASON.</STRONG>

well said.

[San Acoustic]

Toronto Globe and Mail

A look into the mindset of a terrorist. You'll have to delete the spaces created in an attempt to prevent the page from going to wide.

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: San Acoustic ]

[Korv]

Originally posted by Mskr:
<STRONG>

Well, I guess this will be my "all pissed" reaction.

NO PRIVATE CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY KNOWS WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS ATTACK.

Wait. Let that sink in for a second.

Now, think about what that means. We have been hearing a lot of speculations and fragments of reports of FBI investigations. What if these attacks were not supported by any other government, but small terrorist groups? What if everyone who took part in these attacks either a) died in the attack or b) is on US soil? Who do we declare war on?</STRONG>

I understand we're not sure, yet. To me "yet" is the operative word in that sentence. I have full faith that we will know. If it was only a small terrorist group, then we destroy that group. If everyone involved died, or is in the US, then it is our duty to ensure this does not happen again. That means destroying any organization that has a history of terrorist attacks againt the US, including Bin Laden and company.

Originally posted by Mskr:
<STRONG>
IF a government did fund the attacks, does that REALLY mean that their country should be "removed from the map"? What does that even mean? We should nuke the country flat, killing the entire civilian population? THINK for one second what that means. Now, think about someone saying that the entire US population should be killed because of something our government did. NOW, do you think you're being a little bit extreme?</STRONG>

No, I don't think I'm being extreme, and I'm glad you asked what that means. I would not advocate the use of widespread nukes, and I would not advocate killing an entire civilian population. What I do mean is that, IF another government supported financially, materially, or otherwise, these terrorists, then that government should be deposed. How to do this? Through military force... whatever is called for. If you can do it by arresting the president, then that's all you have to do. If you have to neutralize the military then have marines storm the capital, then that's what you have to do. I do not yet know if any government was involved, but if they were, they should be (and I believe they will be) "removed" (from the face of the planet).

Originally posted by Mskr:
<STRONG>
Right now, we have NO IDEA the extent of foriegn government involvement in the Setpember 11th attacks. We are angry and we want justice. We will get justice. However, I fear that the justice we will effect will not be enough; THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN ERASE THE PAIN AND SUFFERING THAT HAS HAPPENED, THERE IS NO COMFORT FOR THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS THAT WILL BE SUFFICIENT.

The people who died cannot be replaced. Killing innocent civilians will not bring them back or comfort their loved ones. We cannot "remove" countries from the map in order to salve our wounds. If our military reaction is not measured and surgical, we are only creating more problems for ourselves, NOT solving them.</STRONG>

You are correct that there is nothing that can ease the pain and suffering of the victims. I trust in the government and military of the United States to enact a response that is "measured and surgical". My job is to stand in concert and unity with the rest of America. No matter the past, there is no justification for these actions, and there should be no mercy for those who participated. That I don't know who that is yet does not diminish my certainty that there is one appropriate response for whoever it may be.

Originally posted by Mskr:
<STRONG>
The people who perpetrated the attacks and those who funded them are the ones who need to be brought to justice. If any government directly support the attacks, the leaders who were involved should be brought to justice. Other terrorist organizations must be brought to justice. All citizens of the world must stand together against terrorism. BUT no more innocents should die. DON'T think that all muslims are terrorist. DON'T think that all citizens from any country support their governments or their leaders. American muslims are not to blame, nor should they be punished. Please, don't let your anger turn into widespread, blind hatred to groups of people who have no part in the September 11th attacks.</STRONG>

I don't think that more innocents should die. I don't think all Muslims are terrorists. I don't believe that a goverments actions speaks for the entire populace. I do not blame American Muslims. My anger is not widespread blind hatred. It is focused intense anger.

And I believe that "brought to justice" may not be sufficient. A courtroom is not the place for "justice" to be found here. This should not be handled by a judge and jury (yet). This is war. WAR. If you don't agree, then you are in the minority, because all of NATO has agreed. War is when a situation has been escalated to such an extent that there is no other solution other than violence. The incident at Pearl Harbor brought us into WWII. This is worse. Whoever did this declared war. The scope of this war may, or may not, go beyond the scope of the individuals directly involved in this one attack on the United States.

Originally posted by Mskr:
<STRONG>
And above all: THINK. CONSIDER. REASON.</STRONG>

Agreed. I'm glad you asked the questions you did and brought up the points you did. With the elaboration provided here, all my original statments stand. Especially this one:

Originally posted by Korv:
<STRONG>
However, sometimes war is justified. There is ONE (and only one) possible response to this action. Left or right. Democrat or Republican. Liberal or Conservative. Dove or Hawk. The perpetrators of this act must be wiped off the face of the planet. Those who funded them must be killed. Countries who harbored them must be removed from the map. Individuals and groups who sympathise and support the hijakers and others like them need to be hunted down globally and erased. Any individual, organization, military, or government that stands in the way must be eradicated.

Deoes a strong American military response scare you?

Good. It should.</STRONG>

[jeffhot]

Originally posted by MikeM32:
<STRONG>Does anyone seriously think that changing foriegn policy and aide to other countries will suddenly make things better? These people will obviously do anything to make thier point ...
</STRONG>

And what is their point? Don't you want to know?

[Korv]

Originally posted by jeffhot:
<STRONG>
And what is their point? Don't you want to know?</STRONG>

No. I don't care anymore.

Monday I would have said yes. I would have helped elucidate it for many of the less understanding people on these boards. I would have criticized our (USA) behaviour in the past. I would have advocated a non-military approach of global mediation. I would have been unable to put myself squarly on one side because I understand all sides. I would have urged understanding for all those whose message is not broadcast daily on TV and may not be widly understood.

Today, I don't care.

[Nonsuch]

Kudos to Mskr and Korv. It's very refreshing to see we can come to agreements here, without resorting to labelling and insults. And I agree entirely with both of you.

[Millennium]

And what is their point? Don't you want to know?

I'm with Korv. On Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 8:00 AM, I would have said yes. But by 10:00 AM, whoever did this utterly lost their right to be heard. They have invalidated their viewpoint, as held by them anyway, by killing innocent people in order to get at it. As all who would use violence to force people to do things their way do. Every last one: the viewpoint of the IRA is invalid, the viewpoint of Hamas is invalid, the viewpoint of the Shining Path and ETA and all groups like them are invalid, and will continue to be invalid until they stop taking innocent lives to force their views onto others.

Whoever they are, they have shown the world their true intent: to kill. No remorse, no attempt at diplomatic matters, not even an attempt to identify themselves. How can we know their point of view without even knowing who they are? The simple answer: we cannot know it; who would we ask? And by not coming forward, they have kept us from knowing it.

Make no mistake: these people will be found, and they will pay for what they have done. Dearly. And they brought it on themselves; it is no one's fault but their own. While I won't pretend the US has always held the high moral ground on all things, the actions of the terrorists gave me a rather violent shove over to the US side. This is not revenge; this is self-defense.

[godzookie2k]

Look, I think we need to all calm down a little bit, and get one HELL of a networked game of rainbow six on... Anyone up for it? Calm on, it'll help you vent. Much more entertaining than these boards at least.

Nick