[Voice of America]

The United States of America was attacked yesterday. At least 10,000 dead. This was done by a foreign organization. Most likely sponsored by a foreign government. One plane was due to hit the white house but over shot it. The Pentagon was the secondary target. A foreign government killing Americans here in America.

If this is not an act of war I don�t know what is.

I don�t understand why some here can�t see that. We are under attack. This is war and we need to get them before they get us. Yet many here say no. They say it can't be done. They say it will cost use lives. They say we should do nothing. They say we should comply with the wishes of the terrorist. They say that we are to blame. That the US is wrong.

The US is not to blame. We are not wrong. That is why they hate US. We can find those that hate us. We can kill them where they live. We can identify the governments that support these people. We can and should destroy them.

When the US comes under attack it is not the time to retreat. We cannot be dictated to by terrorist. We must remain free. The people in this forum can�t see that. Maybe they think this will all go away. It will not. This is not the first attack. It�s the latest. It will not be the last. If we act now we can reduce the lose of American lives.

Our leaders in Washington understand what the people here do not.

"God may show you mercy, we will not.� - Sen. Jon McCain

"We believe that acts of war have been committed against American people and we will response accordingly. It�s not just a matter of going after the perpetrators but it�s going after and dealing with the sources of support they have. We will hold accountable those countries that provide support, that give ... support facilities to these kinds of terrorist groups.� - Secretary of State Colin Powell

"We literally and figuratively stand shoulder to shoulder in our appreciation of the job ahead.� It is to help the victims, to care for the families and to punish those responsible," - Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle.

"In righteousness, the United States government will hunt down to the ends of the earth the assassins of our innocent kin and we will strike back." - Rep. Greg Ganske

"The parties will take such action as it deems necessary, including armed force," "Accordingly, the United States' NATO allies stand ready to provide the assistance that may be required as a consequence of these acts of barbarism."�
NATO Secretary-General Lord Robertson

Now is not the time to fear war. Now is the time to fear not going to war.

[Millennium]

You are right, VoA.

But people like Jeffhot are not bad people. They earnestly want peace, like we all do. Their hearts are in the right place. It's just that wherever that place is, reality is in another. The world is not a very nice place, sad to say. I've said before that the only winning move is not to play, and I stand by that. Everyone is going to lose here. But what has to be done, has to be done. The alternatives are even worse.

[Voice of America]

No one is bad. They are the product of the most free and successful democracy the world has ever known. They think what we saw is a crime. That was the old policy. No more. This is the largest attack on the US in the modern era (or ever). It is war.

We can stop these people. It will come at great cost. It will take a long time. We can't fail.

I don't seek blood and have no fight with the population of the mid east. It ends here though.

[Earth Mk. II]

First of all, how are you going to fight an enemy that hasn't been identified yet? (suspected, yes. confirmed, no.)

And how, then, will you fight a bunch of terrorists and guerrillas?

You said in another thread (here) that we will need a new kind of soldier... so exactly how long will it take to train these new soldiers? And how? Will they be conditioned to think that it's ok to firebomb whole towns? Kill women and children if they're 'in the way'?

We can't just march in there (wherever there is) and expect them to come running out and surrendering. They made the first strike... they'd have to be total idiots not to expect some sort of retaliation (and I think they've defiantly proven that if they're anything, they're not idiots). Hell, they're probably waiting for US.

I don't think war or military action is a very practical or good solution. There are other answers, and it's about time we got a little "low tech, high concept" ourselves.

You say that the US is ready for this. You say that we will win.

Yet, you have no more support to those statements than those of us calling for peace or claiming that other viable options exist.

Apathy is bad, but blind patriotism is no better.

[TNproud2b]

I'll take a double shot of blind patriotism, thank you.


Sounds better than the alternative.

[Voice of America]

The US has no choice. We must act. We know where these people are. Anyone who as made threats to the US in the past is our enemy. When they are dead they will not be able to threaten us again.

You would have us do nothing. That policy has failed.

[jeffhot]

Minor correction: it was not another foreign government who did this.

Minor question: hypothetically speaking. What is we found and captured bin Laden and all his cohorts and gave them a fair trial in an International War Tribunal?
Wouldn't that satisfy "bringing them to justice"? Why does massive airborne military attack have to be used? Just wanted to know what opinions were on that, not trying to change the topic...

[Earth Mk. II]

Vengeance is a dish best served by idiots.

[simonjames]

To do nothing is to invite another round of terrorist attacks.

Trusting god is the same as shoving your head up your ar$e. If your god was so good we wouldn't be so shocked and devastated - explain that!

You might be able to capture and bring to trial the main culprits but you won't capture all of them. There will be other eager young people willing to continue their cause. The terrorism will not stop while a few live. Total annihilation is the only option.

Bringing the terrorists to trial will mean that they get to live a nice long life protected in a US sponsored hotel. You call this punishment?

You people calling for peace should keep off the weed.

[Voice of America]

Originally posted by jeffhot:
<STRONG>Minor correction: it was not another foreign government who did this.
</STRONG>

That is false. These terrorist enjoy comfort in countries that would have us dead. Diplomacy has failed. This is an act of war. I know you cannot understand it. That's okay because out leaders and our military do understand.

You want peace but you don't want to fight for it. You think we should retreat but that will not save us.

<A HREF="http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/slipsky/?id=95001114" TARGET=_blank>This Is War
Don't treat it as a law-enforcement problem.</A>


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Sep11.html

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Voice of America ]

[jeffhot]

Originally posted by Voice of America:
<STRONG>That is false. These terrorist enjoy comfort in countries that would have us dead. Diplomacy has failed. This is an act of war. I know you cannot understand it. That's okay because out leaders and our military do understand.

You want peace but you don't want to fight for it. You think we should retreat but that will not save us.
</STRONG>

Okay yeah great, but what about my question? Just humor me and answer it.

[Voice of America]

We don't seek vengeance. You can't see it any other way? The US will protect its people. We have no fight with the population of the middle east.

[simonjames]

Hi Jeff,

I think my post answers your question - you will never capture them all and therefore you will never bring them all to trial. While a few live they will revenge their leaders incarceration. Only once all of them have been wiped out can the Western World breathe easy.

[Earth Mk. II]

First of all, about the weed remark... I'm straightedge (sXe, and I use the term only as a convenience) and if you're trying to elude to any hippie tendencies I may have, I take offense at that.

...now onto the meat of the matter...

Looks like that no matter who you talk to you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.


Attacking them (again.. exactly who are "they"?) will only strengthen any moral justifications they may have for hating and attacking U.S. Which will, inevitably, invite more attacks on US soil as well. See what a vicious cycle this can turn into?

I just think trying to wage a conventional war with terrorists is a futile effort.

And if God persistently mettled in the affairs of men, there would be no need for religion of any sort because there would be no free will. (The US government does not interfere when someone posts an opinion you don't want to hear, yet it still exists... same logic )

[jeffhot]

Originally posted by Voice of America:
<STRONG>We don't seek vengeance. You can't see it any other way? The US will protect its people. We have no fight with the population of the middle east.</STRONG>

Yeah, but about that question ... will you answer it?

[opallaser]

You will never get them all. They exist as cell groups all over the world ,able to function totally independently. Bin Laden may well be a figure head but simply exterminating him isnt the solution although his capture and/or death will no doubt be seen as a victory. The US must now treat terrorists as their greatest threat. They must use their considerable power and intelligence forces to eradicate this threat from the roots up. They must take away their ability to function.

I think the calls of war are justified. I think they come from an American public that is clearly afraid. They see total annihaliation of their enemies as the only way to stop more disaster. These attacks have shown that even the most powerful nation in the world is vulnerable and that scares everyone. It scares me and live in Australia.

[El Duderino]

you sound very arrogant and pig-headed in my humble opinion if you believe that we can crush the whole world, an enemy without a face, and be back home by dinnertime. violence begets violence, by ****ing people up, you would welcome more terror and hate upon yourselves. you have to understand, that this here conflict is extremely and potentially very ****ing devestating. you dont walk to somones doorstep the day after and level the place. yes, i want a head on a plate, yes i am mad, yes i want to kill some people as well, however, it is not the best option although the only one as of now. all im saying is, i dont agree with our options, but i do not fully ednorse murdering innocent people for the sake of our country's ego.

[opallaser]

Perhaps my post wasn't clear. I think the calls for war are justified. Im not sure the act of going to war is. I think people have the right to be mad and demand war but as i mentioned i don't think that's going to be the only solution or even a permanent solution.

[iNub]

Originally posted by jeffhot:
<STRONG>Minor correction: it was not another foreign government who did this.

Minor question: hypothetically speaking. What is we found and captured bin Laden and all his cohorts and gave them a fair trial in an International War Tribunal?
Wouldn't that satisfy "bringing them to justice"? Why does massive airborne military attack have to be used? Just wanted to know what opinions were on that, not trying to change the topic...</STRONG>

Nothing we can ever do would be punishment enough.

[Voice of America]

Some sort of sick pacifism has invaded our country. America was attacked. We know who did it. We can take them out. Yet the people here think the correct solution is to do nothing. Leave our allies to die. Retreat. Is that what you would have us do?

To those of you who say �attack who�. We attack the terrorist training camps that we know of and others when we find them. When we find a terrorist cell we kill it. We pressure terrorist states to comply with our demands. It wont be fun. But this is a war. It will take months and years. But this is the new face of war. This is the new Hitler.

To those that don�t want to fight. Fine. Other will fight for you.

To do nothing is more dangerous than anything else. But many of you can't see that.

[Macfreak7]

It is most likely going to be 'terrorism vs. rest of world'. And that is exactly what it should be.
Terrorists have caused fear and panic in a whole lot of countries. This time they should be found and eradicated, by ALL nations together. Like someone said... terrorists should be dealt with in a language that they understand... violence and hate.

Easier said than done tho... just hope its done.

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Macfreak7 ]

[mr. natural]

There has been damn little pacifism expressed here by the majority that I can see, and a lot more annoyance by some with the shrill over the top "we know who they are - annihilate them all" rabid dog blood lust lunacy.

We know who Osama bin Laden is, and we know that Saddam too is our enemy. We also know that the Taliban harbors bin Laden and his terrorist camps. But beyond these few certainties things start to get a wee bit more murky. We don't know exactly where bin Laden is, and nor have we been able to ever exactly pinpoint Saddam (certainly not long enough to conviently take him out with a cruise missle since GWB #1 & Colin Powell let him off the hook ten years ago). This is just the tip of the frigging iceberg of not knowing jack sheeit, nevermind being able to act without making matters a lot worse and needlessly spilling more American blood.

But you, all knowing, all self-assured, Voice of America, have been spouting off practically nonstop since a day ago, and as BRussell wondered and others have seconded, I too am sick of your one note arrogance. It's gotten boring faster than Ca$h's typical rants, who at least has a certain depth of expressive rhythm. Yours, however, has absolutely none. Amazingly, you've accomplished this in less than 20 posts - which has to be a MacNN record. Give it a break or go jump in a lake.

Better yet, go enlist.

[dogzilla]

Just a few points to contribute:

- Regardless of who the actual terrorists were who perpetrated this specific attack, it is time for us (menaing the entire world) to declare full-scale war on any and all known terrorists, and any country that knowingly gives them funding, aid, or safe harbor. The steps for this have already been initiated with the invocation of NATO article 5 (paraphrased: An attack upon any signatory is viewed as an attack upon all signatories, and all signatories are obliged to respond militarily), and with several resoltuions now making their way through the UN which have been de facto accepted by members of the security council. Hopefully, we can all work together to remove the terrorist threat from our world and hunt them down like the cowardly dogs they are. Perhaps this can even be the basis for better understanding between all the nations of the world.

- the leaders of Afghanistan and Palestine have denounced the actions of their own people who celebrated the attack against America. To make this clear, the leaders of Palestine and Afghanistan have publicly stated that there is and can be no justification for this recent terrorism. Even Mohammar Ghaddafi has denounced these acts.

- It is not clear that Osama bin Laden is responsible, or that he is anything more than a figurehead held up as a convenient paper target to shield those actually responsible. Ex-CIA operatives active in Afghanistan during the war had no knowledge of anyone by his name or reputation, which directly contradicts his claims that he was trained by the CIA and was a "great warrior" during the war. It is starting to look as if he's a rich dilettante and a patsy designed to offer cover for the real perpetrators and thrown away when no longer useful.

- Any evidence generated that indicates who os responsible will have to be good enough to convince not only US leaders, but also our NATO allies and possibly the UN security council. They may or may not take part in military action (personally, I think the US should handle it alone), but they must be convinced that the evidence is clear and believable in order to provide support (overflights, intelligence, etc.)

Clearly, a military invasion or bombing of Afghanistan is not warranted at this time, as some have bandied about. Once we know who actually did this, then it is time to attack with terrible speed and force. If we generate evidence of other terrorist groups in the process, then we should also strike against them immediately and forcefully. But we must not attack people who are potentially innocent.

Once the world knows the names of the pigs responsible for this and other atrocities, then it is time to rain down a horrible vengeance, and for all civilized nations to hound them to the ends of the earth.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Voice of America:
<STRONG>That is false. These terrorist enjoy comfort in countries that would have us dead. Diplomacy has failed. This is an act of war. I know you cannot understand it. That's okay because out leaders and our military do understand.

You want peace but you don't want to fight for it. You think we should retreat but that will not save us.

<A HREF="http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/slipsky/?id=95001114" TARGET=_blank>This Is War
Don't treat it as a law-enforcement problem.</A>


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Sep11.html</STRONG>

This goes for all of Voice Of America's posts really:

[Millennium]

Minor question: hypothetically speaking. What is we found and captured bin Laden and all his cohorts and gave them a fair trial in an International War Tribunal?
Wouldn't that satisfy "bringing them to justice"?

Nope. The reason for this is simple: while such a tribunal can reach a verdict, it cannot pass a sentence. And I don't just mean in terms of a death sentence; they cannot pass a sentence of any kind. Both verdict and sentence are parts of justice, and an international tribunal can only provide the first.

Did you know, for example, that Colin Powell has been convicted of war crimes? I'm not sure exactly what it is they say he did, but he was tried in absentia and convicted not long after the Gulf War. And yet, despite the verdict, nothing was done to him; heck, most people don't even know he was ever on trial for it. I can't say whether or not I think the verdict was valid, because I don't know what they claim he did. The same tribunal convicted George Bush (the senior), and Norman Schwarzkopf (I hope I got his name right there).

[rogerkylin]

It seems most of these discussions are being carried by a few regulars (including myself).

It is because of the widley varried views from people like jeffhot (idealistic in my opinion) and Voice of America (a bit more extreme than myself) that increase the odds the U.S. will make a reasonable long term decision. I don't think this really needs to be said, but I'm sure the extremists (bad word but I'm not an english major) realize we can not squash all of the terrorists of the world, yet I also believe/hope the idealists realize that the utopian society they want will never be.

I think we all want a peaceful end-result, but the question is how do we get there? I'm sure these types of discussions go on within the congress and militry but appear unified externally. We need the varied opinions.