[Demonhood]

If you had 24/7 access to an actual working holodeck<font color = blue>*</font>, where would you draw the line? What are the boundaries that you would set for yourself?

Here is the setup:

1) You have a holodeck at your disposal.
2) The safety protocols are all on. (you can't be hurt/killed like in the matrix)
3) No one is monitoring you. No one would ever know what you did unless you told them.
4) Anything is game. The possibilities are endless.

I guess this question isn't that far off from a person's general ethics. If you aren't inclined to burn a village full of children in real life, you'll probably not want to do that on a holodeck either.

But......what if it was something less evil. If you want to experience war; the adrenaline pumping through your blood as you dodge bullets and mortar shells, you can. If you want to be Hugh Hefner, circa 1970, you can. Where do you draw the line?

My thinking is that the one of the reasons to draw a line is that you'll start scaring yourself with what you're able to do (even in this fake world). It might desensitize you to such a degree you can no longer operate properly in society. Guilt is a big factor too.

So...where is your line?

<font color = blue>* For anyone not familiar with the Star Trek universe, a holodeck is a highly advanced room with holographic emitters all around. The world it creates is basically real. You can touch, smell, feel, hear, taste the holograms around you. The holograms, naturally, cannot leave this area. If you want a recent comparison, just imagine if instead of plugging your brain into the Matrix, you stepped into a room where the Matrix was located, where everything was real to you, but where you couldn't be harmed, and all you had to do was say "Computer: End Program" to shut it all down.</font>

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Demonhood ]

[ort888]

In my fantasy world, I would be sitting, bored at work, posting to a mac forum.

[mr_sonicblue]

Hmm, I'd probably do a lot of stuff that would normally kill you, just for the hell of it. (Like, jump off a building) Or, I'd probably make a few holograms of people I dislike, and beat 'em up a bit

"Computer, begin Bill Gates Punching-bag."

"Computer, begin Gymnastics Announcer shooting gallery." (Hint: "Oooooooh, I can't believe she didn't stick that triple-somersault, five-and-a-half twist landing! It's so unlike her.")[/LIST]

[Scott_H]

Many a Hollywood starlet would be worshiping me.

Oh and my wife would make me dinner and rub my feet.

[tg-007]

Well I probably couldn't do anything really cool with the Holodeck as I am pretty unfamiliar with it, so I imagine i would have to have Seven of Nine come and help me out, haha.


Out of Character

[krove]

Does anyone remember Reg Barclay from TNG? He did much of the same: created people he didn't like (made them look funny, shorter) and created Troy to be very ...ummm... likable . How far is too far? Sex? Murder? It probably depends upon your own set of morals and the ability (this is key) to distinguish a holodeck program from the real world.

I have often dreamed of using a holodeck to simulate life, events, and use the infamous command, "Computer, remove" such and such character or "Computer, freeze program." How cool would that be? You could live your fantasies, test/confront your fears, and learn many new things. Imagine you are a child and you have an elaborate program that adapts to your skills, invokes problem solving abilities, etc. Such a program was demonstrated on a Voyager episode with Naomi Wildman solving problems with futuristic sesame street-like characters.

Wow. I <font color = green>envy</font> the future...

[Xeo]

Originally posted by krove:
<STRONG>Does anyone remember Reg Barclay from TNG?</STRONG>

I remember that episode.

I'd use it to do all the things I can't do in real life. I'd do all the things I could do, but am afraid to (bungie jumping, sky diving, things I'd have to learn). I'd probably take a lot of aggression out, going on a mass murder. Kinda like an interactive Quake/Doom thing.

I would hope doing all these things wouldn't desensitize me to the real world. I like to think I have a bit more self control than that. I would try to remember that everything I do is fake, and no real self gratitude can be gained from things I do in there. Maybe learning from DeVinci(sp?), or the designer of the Enterprise would be more self-fufilling.

[etphonehome]

If I had a holodeck, there probably isn't much that I wouldn't do. I probably would do scary, dangerous things that I'm too scared to do in real life. I'd probably also take out some agression by going on a shooting rampage or two [disclaimer]Notice that I said I wouldn't do this in real life. I don't want to get expelled or anything [/disclaimer].

However, I probably would draw the line at interacting with people I know in real life. It would be just way too weird to talk to my friends (or enemies, for that matter) when it isn't for real.

[AlbertWu]

Adolescent's dream...

[AirSluf]

The safeties-on thing doesn't mean you can't get hurt, just not seriously hurt by the simulations actions. You can still break your neck by jumping head first onto the floor, or get nasty bruises by being in a simulated brawl with Computer Generated Forces (CGF). Objects in the holodesck provide haptic forces, haptic force is the force an object pushes back at you with. Say you sit on a simulated table and weigh 150#. The simulated table has to push up on you with 150# of force to keep you from falling. If it breaks and you fall through to the floor, the floor (which is not simulated) provides a near infinite haptic force back on you prevening you from going through it. The computer can attempt to help slow you down, but you can make yourself move fast enough to cause bodily harm despite the computers best efforts.

The psychology of something like the Holodeck, is a very touchy issue. The whole base concept is to replace reality to the point that you become completely immersed. Not the fake immersion that people speak of today, that is merely engrossment. When you are immersed you believe you are there. Your existing fears and inhibitions cannot be arbitrarily turned off unless you degrade the experience to a point you are constantly reminded by the sim that you aren't really there.

Because you believe you are there while you are actively participating, your mind will process everything you do in the holodeck as if it was "for real", having a significant long term effect on how you behave. This effect is called "Training Transfer" and whether you want it or not it exists because for the last several hundred million years all brains have only had the real world to deal with, so there is only on way to process information. The only way to reduce this effect is to make simulations less real and implicitly remind the conscious mind constantly it is not in reality. Then conscious thought has a much larger role as a filter for what is incorporated as training transfer. Many of todays simulators suck because the conscious mind IS reminded it is not in reality and so many things are too wrong (or inconsistent) that the participants filter out much of the experience as unrealistic.

The next step in simulation is a more effective method to trick the conscious mind into "suspension of disbelief" as the movie folks call it. The weird thing here is maybe being totally real is the worst way to simulate. When you go to a movie, nothing is real, but while you watch you are convinced it is. The proof of this is emotional response, crying women at "chick flicks", raised heart rates and involuntary twitches by guys during action sequences, and jumps by everyone in a well executed scary movie. All aspects of the experience are carefully devised and orchestrated to meet your expectation of what you think it "should be" like. Not an abstract representation of what is real. This works because you are cut off from the outside world in the theater and the axiom of "In the absence of fact, perception becomes reality" kicks in. You are fed something that your brain expects because it has seen hundreds of movies or television shows. Back outside, reality works because you are there and you have a different and more accurate set of expectations. Needless to say, all REALLY cool stuff!

I bet you could never guess I an halfway to my MS in Modeling, Virtual Environments and Simulation.

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: AirSluf ]

[Belle]

If I had access to a Holodeck I'd use it as a plot device in a sci-fi series so that I could send the characters to important events throughout the history of the planet Earth instead of dulling viewers senses by sending the crew to another planet that raises ethical issues within non-human characters to show they all exhibit human traits.

[Demonhood]

Originally posted by Belle:
If I had access to a Holodeck I'd use it as a plot device in a sci-fi series so that I could send the characters to important events throughout the history of the planet Earth instead of dulling viewers senses by sending the crew to another planet that raises ethical issues within non-human characters to show they all exhibit human traits.

Hehe. Rick (Berman), is that you??

[gwrjr33]

Well, we dealt with my fantasies last week...

I feel kind of the opposite to what Belle is saying. The holodeck to my mind represents just how "played out" the Star Trek genre became. It represented an inability to come up with compelling storylines within the context of the whole cowboy space exploration thing that Star Trek was originally about. (Which was kind of what Belle was saying only I thought using the holodeck to work your way out of the creative rut that they were in was a bad thing. Better to just bring on Armageddon and have some real fun.) BTW, which Star Trek is your favorite? I kind of like DS9 the best although by the time Voyager came along even Seven couldn't get me to be a regular viewer anymore. I must say adding her was a very good effort and I appreciated it.


[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: gwrjr33 ]

[Belle]

The holodeck to my mind represents just how "played out" the Star Trek genre became. It represented an inability to come up with compelling storylines within the context of the whole cowboy space exploration thing that Star Trek was originally about. (Which was kind of what Belle was saying only I thought it was a bad thing.)

That's exactly what I was saying, and it is a hugely bad thing.

[gwrjr33]

Originally posted by Belle:

<STRONG>That's exactly what I was saying, and it is a hugely bad thing. </STRONG>

Ok, I guess I had a brain fart.

[Whisper]

Originally posted by AirSluf:
<STRONG>The safeties-on thing doesn't mean you can't get hurt, just not seriously hurt by the simulations actions. You can still break your neck by jumping head first onto the floor, or get nasty bruises by being in a simulated brawl with Computer Generated Forces (CGF).</STRONG>

Right, the safeties are there stop bullets and stuff. I suppose the floor could also be simulated though. That way the computer could keep from falling flat on your face and breaking your nose

<STRONG>The psychology of something like the Holodeck, is a very touchy issue. The whole base concept is to replace reality to the point that you become completely immersed. Not the fake immersion that people speak of today, that is merely engrossment. When you are immersed you believe you are there. Your existing fears and inhibitions cannot be arbitrarily turned off unless you degrade the experience to a point you are constantly reminded by the sim that you aren't really there.</STRONG>

Ok, how could I not know that I'm in the holodeck? No matter how good the simulation is, wouldn't I always know in the back of my head that it isn't real? If I had a holodeck... hmmm... well simulated versions of real people are definitely off, cause that could way too weird. Other than that I'm really not sure. Heh, I'm not even sure I'd want a holodeck, I might get a bit to addicted for my own good .

[krove]

Didn't you guys ever see the Episode of Voyager where B'lanna went skydiving? The computer was able to simulate falling, but when she ended the program mid-flight, she was actually hovering in relation to the holodeck grid.

Hmm...[pondering the future]...

[AirSluf]

Ok, how could I not know that I'm in the holodeck? No matter how good the simulation is, wouldn't I always know in the back of my head that it isn't real? If I had a holodeck... hmmm... well simulated versions of real people are definitely off, cause that could way too weird. Other than that I'm really not sure. Heh, I'm not even sure I'd want a holodeck, I might get a bit to addicted for my own good .

Not necessarily. If the sim is good enough you will forget it is a sim for extended periods. During those periods you are "immersed" and mentally at the mercy of the sim and it's creators. (No, if you get killed in a good simulation you won't die for real, the sim would depart from reality there and the immersion would be broken when you realize you aren't really dead yet.) With mental discipline you will be able to remind yourself from time to time "It is only a simulation" and those are the times you can say "Stop Program". That's real easy in a script, but not so easy for real. That is a thing we actually count on for getting greater training benefit from current simulations. Unfortunately the immersion quality and forget times are dismally short. So we have to rely on the trainees willingness to accept the simulation is useful and realistic enough to not filter out everything we are trying to accomplish.

[starfleetX]

Where to draw a line?

What line?

We don't need no steenking lines!!

Yeah, "Hollow Pursuits" with good old "Broccoli" was an interesting scenario. Anyway, I'd like to play a trick on some poor shmoe (read: one of my friends) and pull a fast one like Professor Moriarty did in "Ship in a Bottle" (TNG, 6th season). You know, invite the unsuspecting guest over to your house, take them to the holodeck, then have your house inside the holodeck and play tricks on the poor soul, changing all the environment variables to have weird things happen.

Okay, so I'm a little evil, but it's all in good fun. I can say for sure that I ain't evil enough to want to burn down a village full of children, even in a holodeck. :o

[edit] further explanation on the Moriarty scenario above:
Moriarty was a holodeck character that had gained conciousness in a previous episode when he realized he was in a holodeck on a starship. He wanted to be able to leave the holodeck one day. Anyway, to make a long story short, Data and Picard enter the holodeck but when they think they leave, they actually only go through a simulated exit and are then on a simulation of the Enterprise. The poor shmucks couldn't seem to figure it out for quite a while. Eventually Picard and Data use the same trick on Moriarty, allowing him to be transported within the holodeck to think he was outside in the "real" world. Now that's being emersed in a simulation!

[ 06-10-2001: Message edited by: starfleetX ]

[wumeng]

Originally posted by Demonhood:
<STRONG>If you had 24/7 access to an actual working holodeck&lt;font color = blue&gt;*&lt;/font&gt;, where would you draw the line? What are the boundaries that you would set for yourself?</STRONG>

I'd generate a virtual Jedi academy and have myself taught on how to use a lightsaber...

Wouldn't mind having Seven of Nine around as well. (Has anybody wondered why other numbers from 1 to 9 weren't used? )

[Treky]

I'd have the holodeck create a sledge hammer and a never ending supply of Windows PCs! And I'd invite you all to join me. "Computer. Generate another sledge hammer!".

[xyber233]

I would make my dream Apple computer and live in the holodeck .

[BRussell]

Originally posted by AirSluf:
<STRONG>I bet you could never guess I an halfway to my MS in Modeling, Virtual Environments and Simulation.</STRONG>

Very cool! Are you working on specific applications, or more pure stuff?

Here's another issue to throw into the mix - the idea that you can "get it out of your system" by acting things out in fantasy or simulation is bunk.

It turns out that "venting" anger, sexual feelings, etc. does not release them, it increases them. You wouldn't go to the holodeck and screw the chick at work and then forget about her more easily, or shoot your boss and feel less anger. It would just make it worse. Believe me, I know.

[AirSluf]

Mostly trying to scope the thesis to a manageable chunk right now. But that chunk ain't gonna be your older brothers simulator. I'm trying to add things that occupy your mental faculties to the point that you don't have enough time to realize you are in a poor simulation. Basically raise the stress level and play with the perception of time to force a persons brain processing levels to a saturation level commensurate with what they would experience in real life at "real time" speeds. Basically since I can't make the environment real enough yet, I don't want to let you have enough time to realize that and decide the whole thing is hokey.

Interactions with both computer generated and networked real entities, time compression, and mentally/physically challenging tasks can (I think) wrap you up sufficiently for short training periods and make you better at what you practiced in the real world as well. I would like to incorporate a subliminal soundtrack to guide emotional involvement as well. Sponsors currently wont pay for a soundtrack in the background they can hear, but if I don't tell them it's there until I grab them by the emotional short-hairs and make them feel uneasy when something is about to go wrong, or really get their blood pumping after it does, maybe they will take it seriously later.

Current simulations leave you ho-hum as things go wrong, there is no emotional component. You know you are not at risk, and have a lot of unused mental capacity that is available to remind you of that. Foreboding music alone will make the mind spool up and begin to try to figure out what's wrong at a subconscious level. As those wheels begin to turn we should be able to set the hook and hit both a mental and emotional response that will help a good scenario wrap folks up into an immersed state until we finish the specific training we set out to accomplish. Then we can let you down with recovery music and set you up mentally for the next run. Basically, just like in the movies, only you are the movie.

[shanraghan]

Originally posted by AlbertWu:
<STRONG>Adolescent's dream... </STRONG>

Indeed... it'd be frightening to see what some adolescents (ex: those friends of yours at the AIDS walk) would try to pull if they had a holodeck... O_o

I think that what would be another issue along these lines to explore how intelligent the simulation can be without crossing a moral boundary. For example, in Star Trek, holodeck characters seem to behave as sentient beings. If you were to create a simulation that could emulate thought processes to such a level, it could be considered nothing short of creating a human and thus the morality of manipulating such beings for entertainment would be questionable.