[CaseCom]

Originally posted by tinrib:
<STRONG>Americans: loved throughout the world...



</STRONG>

A little perspective

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: CaseCom ]

[KellyHogan]

Some more perspective. Bush arrives in Berlin. We all know how much his grandfather loved that place.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/2003706.stm

[Mastrap]

The protesters in Berlin don't hate Americans as a people, I don't think.

What is protested against is the way the US government are seen to be behaving on the international stage and this is personified by Bush. Bush is seen as an oaf with little or no knowledge of international affairs and little or no interest in the wellbeing of the international community.

I have got to say that these beliefs are shared by a large fraction of my friends who happen to be US citizens.

These sentiments have also been strengthened by a couple of Mr. Bush's actions on the environment and by his "you're with us or you're against us" rethoric.

Ideas like building a department that would knowingly spread lies towards the American people and it's allies didn't help either. If there's one thing that's held in sactity in Europe it's the freedom of the press. Despite the freedom of speech being part of the US constitution there is a feeling that US jornalists lack teeth - a feeling shared by some US journalist btw.

Personally I intensly dislike Bush . But so far he's a man with limited ability doing the best he can.

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
<STRONG>The protesters in Berlin don't hate Americans as a people, I don't think.

</STRONG>

No one hates Americans as a people. There is no such thing as an 'American' people just as my comments about WASP culture do not apply to every single white Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Even Mr. Bin Ladin said in his final interview to Arab news in October 'The American govoernment is leading Americans in the wrong direction and lying to them.' which indicates he has no problem with Americans, only the establishment. What excuse is there for hating Americans? None. Actually most of the world feels sorry for them.

My criticism of WASP consumer culture, if anyone cared to read carefully, was not an attack. Read again where I said 'The western world is expensive to live in because WASPs don't seem to understand life can be cheap if they try to build tradition. As a consequence businessmen take advantage of the WASPs lack of knowledge by charging as much as they feel fit to charge.'

Is that a helpful comment or attack?

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>


My criticism of WASP consumer culture, if anyone cared to read carefully, was not an attack. Read again where I said 'The western world is expensive to live in because WASPs don't seem to understand life can be cheap if they try to build tradition. As a consequence businessmen take advantage of the WASPs lack of knowledge by charging as much as they feel fit to charge.'

Is that a helpful comment or attack?</STRONG>

I don't understand. What do you mean by tradition? Toiling the soil ourselves again?

I make all my own pasta/currie/foodstuffs from scratch. That's because I love cooking. I enjoy nothing more than being in the kitchen on a sunny Sunday morning with a dozen friends coming for lunch at 1:00. That's me. Other people hate cooking. They can't do it. they don't enjoy it. So that's fine too, they get a takeaway from Sainsbury. I've done it myself, arrived home from work late, popped into my local SB and picked up an Indian takeaway to whack in the oven for 20 min utes (I will not have a microwave in my house, ghastly things that they are)

The price of food is what it is because the producers of food live in the same society like the rest of us, i.e they'd like a colour tv and a holiday in Spain once a year.

[juanvaldes]

Originally posted by tinrib:
<STRONG>thing is cipher, we all know that Americans are big mouth bully ignorant pansy arrogant bastards with no sense of humour. The problem is that now we are going to have a whole load of boring obese macdonalds loving greater-than-thou american scum complaining about what you just said - after all they have no sense of humour. </STRONG>

I'm glad I missed this flame fest

1) I hate McDonals
2) It's humor

[SimeyTheLimey]

This idea that anti-Americanism isn't a species of racism is getting very tired. Americans are very much a distinct group, as entitled to respect and not to be stereotyped as any ethnicity. Unfortunately, Anti-Americanism is an acceptable form of bigotry in many circles.

Those circles cross the political spectrum. In the left, it comes because the US is successful and stands for everything they hate. I can understand this, just as I can understand those left wing Americans who so often find common cause, and whose presence gives anti-American non-Americans comfort.

In the right in Europe the instinct is resentment. Empire is gone, and with it much of the influence they cherished. America is the upstart, It is to be disdained and belittled and every success by that country is a slight to that point of view.

Both left and right share the feeling of powerlessness and resent the nation that now wields the power that they think is by right theirs. They also resent the fact that only Americans get to control that power through the ballot box. Again, that's understandable.

The irony is this resentment is mostly one way because the sense of competition is so one sided. Europeans obsess about America. Americans, by and large, do not obsess about Europeans.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
<STRONG>

The irony is this resentment is mostly one way because the sense of competition is so one sided. Europeans obsess about America. Americans, by and large, do not obsess about Europeans.</STRONG>

Part of the problem is exactly that Americans don't obsess about Europe - the US government generally does what it thinks is right without giving a toss how this might affect the rest of the world.

This breeds resentment, wether the source of this is the appaling environmental policies of the current government (we burn, you choke) or the "who isn't with us is against us" rethoric of the current president. I don't think that anyone resents the fact that the US is successful, however you choose to define success, what is resented is the fact that the price for this success is paid for by countries other than the US.

Personally I don't dislike the US, but I can see why a little humility by your political leaders could go a long way to make, or renew, friendships.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>

It's not racist. If it where 'racist' then logically it would be an attack on 'white' people of which I am one (if you believe in race that is). But it doesn't. It is a cultural problem that is infesting the world.

</STRONG>

Perhaps not. Bigoted, though.
So, I was musing on this last evening, and I came to this. Now, granted, I have not read what transpired over the course of the evening while I was out farming sara lee snack cakes, so we will keep that in mind. I like to start at the top.
So, here's the thought.
Rampant commercial disease. Unstoppable juggernaut. YOu left this country because of it (or in part). Did you not? You said so.
OK. Follow.
So, you were unable to resist it. You were, in essense, to weak to assert your own will over it. You HAD choices, freewill, but obviously could not make them work for you. OK. That is you.
As I said, it is the baselessness of your argument which is the mote for me. Combine that with the generalization (one of the BEST qualities in Humanity- way to feed your FUD) and you have created a genuine irritation factor. You specialize in making these HUGE leaps of "logic". Well, now I'll make one.
You were too weak to trust yourself living in the middle of the WASP controled commercial onslaught. You were. It must them follow that everyone else is. You are not responsible for your own. The "Other" is. "THEM". You ran away from it and it has chased you and is now corrupting the (more or less) pure atmosphere in which you have chosen to reside. Your skin is better, but for how long? We already know that you could not resist before. How will you do so now? And if you could not, well, there's no way in hell anyone else would.
COnsidering, I'd say that this argument is big plenty arrogant.

I spent a long time considering your argument. Here is my response. Consider it. Is it absurd? Maybe. I am only stringing together all I know about you from your posts.

"Oh, to be in Oleanna,
That's where I would rather be.
Than be bound in Norway
And drag the chains of slavery."

[maxelson]

Originally posted by tinrib:
<STRONG>

how sweet
http://www.google.com/jobs/britney.html</STRONG>

Christopher Marlowe
Cristofer Morley, Marloe
Crystofer Marley, Morely, Morlow, Moarlie, Marlie, Marlow...etc
Kit Marlo Marley, Morely, Morlow, Moarlie, Marlie, Marlow...etc

Of course, we can apply self same to Shakes-peare (Shakstaff, Shakespeer, Shakseere, Shakespeere...)
Oh. Oh. My. God.
COINCIDENCE? I THINK NOT. NO COINCIDENCES.
Next week's episode- we throughly scan and deconstruct Speeares' (Spears, Speeres) "Ooops, I did it Again" and Compare and Contrast with Marlowe's "Hero and Leander".
Don't miss it.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by tinrib:
<STRONG>

how sweet
http://www.google.com/jobs/britney.html</STRONG>

Waitaminit. Don't. I DID say "don't", didn't I? Didn't I?
It's a conspiracy. Someone's manipulating my posts.
Someone's...

GEORGE W. BUSH IS A FINE HONEST UPSTANDING GENTLEMAN WHO'S MOTIVES ARE PURE AND CHASTE. HE ONLY WANTS THE BEST FOR THE WORLD AND FOR US! PAPA GEOGRE, I CALL HIM! I WILL VOTE REPUBLICAN FOR THE REST OF MY NATURAL LIFE BECAUSE THE R IN REPUBLICAN STANDS FOR "REALLY, REALLY INTEGRITY STRICKEN!!!...

Hey! Cut that out! Not fai...

I think I did it again
I made you believe
We're more than just friends
Oh baby, it might see like a crush
But it doesn't mean that i'm serious

HEY! NOT funny! NOT!!!

[Timo]

max, you don't really need us, do you. you can just kinda...carry on with yourself, eh?

[max luvs britney, yuk yuk]

[UR-20]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
<STRONG>

Use a captital 'A' when you write the word America.

PS, we were waiting for somebody to take offense and blow their top. You were the first.

Where's that theolein dude when you need a blood-pressure-raising raving-lunatic-type reply?

</STRONG>

america can have a capital "a" when they keep their nose out of other country's business and start worrying about the probs at home for a change.

BUT THAT'LL NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE WE'RE aMERICA THE BEST DAMN COUNTRY IN THE WORLD SO WE SHOULD BE THE BOSS OF ALL OTHER "INFERIOR" COUNTRIES AND SOLVE THEIR PROBLEMS FOR THEM AND THEN THEY WILL LOVE US FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER!!
I say we ignore israel and palastine and pray that they both kill eachother.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by chris_h:
<STRONG>

Quit being such a goddamn terrorist, Johnny Jihad.

;-)</STRONG>

Stop kissing uncle sam's ass, Patriotic Pete.

;-)

[maxelson]

Well, you know, sometimes, when you guys just aren't holding up your end of the bargain, I just gotta step in and amuse myself...
Did you know OMNI has built in spell check? Nice feature. Now if only I could get that SSL thing working.
I think my feet are getting flatter.
God, I want a cigarette.
This plum is too ripe.

[jholmes]

Perhaps a little too much caffiene this morning max?

I noticed something yesterday evening while thinking about this thread.
KellyHogan hates American culture and all it stands for. Hates that we've exported it to other contries and they've adopted it.

And yet he admits his own screen name is a combination of Kelly's Heroes - an American film which featured Clint Eastwood and Don Rickles as WWII soldiers ripping off the Europeans and Hogan's Heroes a 70's sitcom where the snappy American led allied POWs continually befuddled their inept German captors.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by UR-20:
<STRONG>

america can have a capital "a" when they keep their nose out of other country's business and start worrying about the probs at home for a change.

</STRONG>

It has long been my absolute and dearest wish that the rest of the world would experience that very thing. But be careful what you wish for. Hands Off means HANDS OFF. TOTALLY, COMPLETELY. In the words of the witch from "Into the Woods":
I'm leaving you my last curse:
I'm leaving you alone.
You can tend the garden, it's yours.
Separate and alone,
Everybody down on all fours.

Totally. Completely. On your own.
So. What cold that mean? What would happen? THINK on that, would you?
Let's hear your thoughts. No more bases, no more aid, no more enforcement of policy, no more diplomacy, no more "New World Order", no more propping of the IMF, no more "peacekeeping", no more interventions or police actions, no more coalitions, no more politics that you'll need to concern yourselves with, no more treaties, no more participation in the UN or NATO. All of it. Gone.
If it were up to me, I would give the whole world ONE WEEK of experiencing JUST that. Don't bother calling, the US is not home. We are away on business.
"Hands Off, America"? Pah. It takes two, does it not? YOUR country had to sign the deal, did it not? Pact comes with a price. They ALL do. Want someone to blame?
Look to your own, there, Doc.
THINK before you ask such a thing. THINK about it.
Then look to your OWN responsibility in it.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by jholmes:
<STRONG>Perhaps a little too much caffiene this morning max?

</STRONG>

Not enough. I see I am losing my sense of humor, though. Prophesy fulfilled.
Wait til he comes back.
Everything else he posts and THAT is the only hypocritical thing you came up with?
C'mon over here, my friend. Looks like we both need a cup of...
WHERE THE FRIG IS MY COFFEE! HEY!!
Excuse me, class...

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: maxelson ]

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
<STRONG>Lerkfish: Step away from the computer! Kelly's getting to you and I hate seeing the Lerkster thrown off-kilter.</STRONG>

point well taken.

[maxelson]

coffee, Lerk? I'm buying!

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by jholmes:
<STRONG>Perhaps a little too much caffiene this morning max?

I noticed something yesterday evening while thinking about this thread.
KellyHogan hates American culture and all it stands for. Hates that we've exported it to other contries and they've adopted it.

And yet he admits his own screen name is a combination of Kelly's Heroes - an American film which featured Clint Eastwood and Don Rickles as WWII soldiers ripping off the Europeans and Hogan's Heroes a 70's sitcom where the snappy American led allied POWs continually befuddled their inept German captors.</STRONG>

More to the point, if a person totally hates American culture then Western Europe is an odd place to go to flee it. I've lived roughly half my life on either side of the pond. There's not that much difference between life in Western Europe and North America. The two are pretty much joined at the hip.

[maxelson]

Simey, my friend! Good to see you! Good Morning to you!
Sit. Relax. Let's chat.
Coffee?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by maxelson:
<STRONG>Simey, my friend! Good to see you! Good Morning to you!
Sit. Relax. Let's chat.
Coffee?</STRONG>

Good morning to you. I only drink coffee occasionally unless I'm in Europe (where it's better). But I'll pull up a cuppa English Breakfast with you if you like.

[maxelson]

Why you poncey tea toting scone munching...
actually, all I got is Lapsang Souchong, but it is the Harrod's blend, so it is pretty good...Ooop! Nope! I got some Bewleys Irsh afternoon tea and it is... whaddyaknow! 12:03 so it'll be legal to consume!

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by maxelson:
<STRONG>Why you poncey tea toting scone munching...
actually, all I got is Lapsang Souchong, but it is the Harrod's blend, so it is pretty good...Ooop! Nope! I got some Bewleys Irsh afternoon tea and it is... whaddyaknow! 12:03 so it'll be legal to consume!</STRONG>

Ah, you know the best tea I ever had was NAAFI brand. I think the British Army use it to power their tanks (which I have heard have kettles built-in!). I used to trot up to Moenchengladbach every now and again when I was stationed in Germany, so I'd always stock up on the essentials - naafi tea, twiglets and Devon custard.

Mmmmmm!

[thunderous_funker]

I submit to you that in a country as vastly diverse culturally, ethnically, politically, religiously and in every other sense that there cannot exist any such imagined crap as "anti-americanism".

That would require something called "americanism" to exist. One complete culture/ideology that defines every single one of 260+ Million of us. The very idea that something so ridiculous could be real is pure fascism.

Anyone who claims otherwise is pigeon-holeing all citizens of this great country into one ugly stereotype in order to demonize anyone who would have a different viewpoint or (god-forbid) criticism.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
<STRONG>I submit to you that in a country as vastly diverse culturally, ethnically, politically, religiously and in every other sense that there cannot exist any such imagined crap as "anti-americanism".

That would require something called "americanism" to exist. One complete culture/ideology that defines every single one of 260+ Million of us. The very idea that something so ridiculous could be real is pure fascism.

Anyone who claims otherwise is pigeon-holeing all citizens of this great country into one ugly stereotype in order to demonize anyone who would have a different viewpoint or (god-forbid) criticism.</STRONG>

Anti-Americanism exists. I grew up hearing it every day, particularly from people such as my school teachers who weren't aware that I was American.

While it is true that this is a diverse country, not everyone else in the world is as subtle and as discriminating in their characterisation of Americans as you. Like most forms of bigotry, anti-Americanism says very little about the victim, but volumes about the perpetrator.

[neill anblome]

Maybe I should start a new thread for this...but I haven't been to the States in a while and I absolutely refuse to believe that most people there support the current gov. and what it stands for politically and socially.

There has to be some place (places)in the US where a lot of "cool*" people live...

*cool:
hedonistic, well educated, open minded and cultured without all the nationalist, religionist crap (sorry for the stereotypes... )

There must be at least 2 or 3 million out there...where? Oh,- and another thing, why are there so many fat people living in the US?

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
<STRONG>

Anti-Americanism exists. I grew up hearing it every day, particularly from people such as my school teachers who weren't aware that I was American.

While it is true that this is a diverse country, not everyone else in the world is as subtle and as discriminating in their characterisation of Americans as you. Like most forms of bigotry, anti-Americanism says very little about the victim, but volumes about the perpetrator.</STRONG>

I'm shocked to hear this clap-trap from a smart guy like you, Simey.

Are you suggesting that criticism of a particular political reality is anti-americanism? Of a particular segment of the population? Of percieved wrongs/rights perpetrated through history?

Since the oldest of American traditions are sedition, individualism and open mistrust of power what on earth can possibly constitute anti-americanism?

It can even be argued that hate speech and bigotry are very american since they exist so adundantly in our country.

In an open society were all viewpoints are valid and all cultures welcome what can possibly be anti-american other than a rejection of those ideals. And since even those ideals are not universally held, not even THAT is anti-american.

&lt;edited for typos&gt;

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: thunderous_funker ]

[Earth Mk. II]

Reason number 1,346 this thread exists:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002May22.html

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
<STRONG>

I'm shocked to hear this clap-trap from a smart guy like you, Simey.

Are you suggesting that criticism of a particular political reality is anti-americanism? Of a particular segment of the population? Of percieved wrongs/rights perpetrated through history?

Since the oldest of American traditions are sedition, individualism and open mistrust of power what on earth can possibly constitute anti-americanism?

It can even be argued that hate speech and bigotry are very american since they exist so adundantly in our country.

In an open society were all viewpoints are valid and all cultures welcome what can possibly be anti-american other than a rejection of those ideals. And since even those ideals are not universally held, not even THAT is anti-american.

&lt;edited for typos&gt;

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: thunderous_funker ]</STRONG>

What? I'm an American who grew up in EUROPE. I'm not talking about Americans criticising our own.

Europeans are free to criticise the US too, of course. But a lot of that criticism is far from subtle, far from reasoned, and often driven more by internal issues than any reality about America.

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: SimeyTheLimey ]

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
<STRONG>

What? I'm an American who grew up in EUROPE. I'm not talking about Americans criticising our own.

Europeans are free to criticise the US too, of course. But a lot of that criticism is far from subtle, far from reasoned, and often driven more by internal issues than any reality about America.

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: SimeyTheLimey ]</STRONG>

I also grew up in Europe. I wonder then, what you consider to be anti-american?

It's almost as meaningless and manipulative a label as 'terrorist'. Instead of describing particular actions or speech in accurate terms we use meaningless labels that incite.

[maxelson]

Hate speech and bigotry are definitely NOT limited to the US in any stretch of the imagination. It is all over the place. We got no monopoly on it, my friend.
Nope. Hate, bigotry and intolerance are hallmarks of humanity. It just wears different hats. Most of the time it is not well disguised.

[ringo]

Originally posted by neill anblome:
<STRONG>Maybe I should start a new thread for this...but I haven't been to the States in a while and I absolutely refuse to believe that most people there support the current gov. and what it stands for politically and socially. </STRONG>

There actually are a lot of people in America who fit this descripton. I'm no fan of the current administration and believe that certain changes in US foreign and economic policy are in order to sere everyone's best interests.

That said, there haven't been many "about the US" discussions that center around specific policies. Most devolve into (or start out as) name-calling and stereotyping. If you really want to engage people about the administration or its policies, its best to talk to the issues instead of making attacks on the nation as a whole.

Of course, its easier to make uninformed statements and attacks instead of asking intelligent questions, but that's a different issue entirely. (Garbage In -&gt; Garbage Out)

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
<STRONG>

I also grew up in Europe. I wonder then, what you consider to be anti-american?

It's almost as meaningless and manipulative a label as 'terrorist'. Instead of describing particular actions or speech in accurate terms we use meaningless labels that incite.</STRONG>

It's a shorthand for any number of comments and attitudes big and small. Some of it was well intentioned and just a little ignorant, some of it was downright hateful. I probably encountered more of the latter than most ex pats because I had a local (English) accent and went to British schools. This is my high school, for example: http://www.farlingaye.suffolk.sch.uk/ Generally, people are too polite to say the really nasty stuff to your face if they know who you are.

Many of those comments would have clearly been identified as racist if the target was any group other than Americans. That is the case even though "Anti-Americanism" is a term commonly used in the UK.

The actual attitudes expressed depended somewhat on the point of view of the person expressing them. They ranged from a general feeling of cultural superiority and condescention to absolute hatred. Many tried to distinguish between the nasty evil American government and the "nice Yank I met on holiday in Florida last year" forgetting, of course, that the one elected the other.

Sometimes it could be comical. My A' Level English teacher used to make frequent belittling comments until I exploded one day. Then about 6 months later he went on an exchange program and came back raving about how he wanted to emigrate.

I don't want to suggest that all Brits are Anti-American by any means. Actually, the opposite is probably true. I also found the same elsewhere in Europe, such as in Germany where I spent three very happy years. But those reflexively negative stereotype-based attitudes do exist, and some go so far as to nurture them deliberately.

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: SimeyTheLimey ]

[UR-20]

Originally posted by maxelson:
<STRONG>
No more bases, no more aid, no more enforcement of policy, no more diplomacy, no more "New World Order", no more propping of the IMF, no more "peacekeeping", no more interventions or police actions, no more coalitions, no more politics that you'll need to concern yourselves with, no more treaties, no more participation in the UN or NATO. All of it. Gone.
If it were up to me, I would give the whole world ONE WEEK of experiencing JUST that. Don't bother calling, the US is not home. We are away on business.
"Hands Off, America"? Pah. It takes two, does it not? YOUR country had to sign the deal, did it not? Pact comes with a price. They ALL do. Want someone to blame?
Look to your own, there, Doc.
THINK before you ask such a thing. THINK about it.
Then look to your OWN responsibility in it.</STRONG>

And how, exactly, do you think countries will become more self sufficent unless the u.s stops interfering. You make it sound as though the entire world would shut down if the united states ain't around. France, England, China, Japan, ect. All existed before the united states. I don't recall reading in history how The world was in chaos and all the sudden after the american revolution a new world order was founded thanks to the united states of america. In terms of the history of the world nothing is forever. The world got along fine without the U.S back in the day and it will do fine if the U.S no longer exists in 2,000 or more years.
The world doesn't revolve around the United States.
And if I were running things I'd go tell all those warring middle eastern countries, "You claim you want help to work for peace, yet you continue to tell your children and their children of how evil the other side is; making them into terrorists, and suicide bombers." "So screw you, screw all of you." "No more interference, no more troops, no more peace talks, you work out your own problems and if you kill eachother, Good!then we can come in a pick up the pieces." I don't know about you but I think america would like to get a few million gallons of crude oil. And as far as "YOUR country had to sign the agreement." heres a little news flash for you, Doc. I LIVE IN AMERICA!!

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
<STRONG>

It's a shorthand for any number of comments and attitudes big and small. Some of it was well intentioned and just a little ignorant, some of it was downright hateful. I probably encountered more of the latter than most ex pats because I had a local (English) accent and went to British schools. This is my high school, for example: http://www.farlingaye.suffolk.sch.uk/ Generally, people are too polite to say the really nasty stuff to your face if they know who you are.

Many of those comments would have clearly been identified as racist if the target was any group other than Americans. That is the case even though "Anti-Americanism" is a term commonly used in the UK.

The actual attitudes expressed depended somewhat on the point of view of the person expressing them. They ranged from a general feeling of cultural superiority and condescention to absolute hatred. Many tried to distinguish between the nasty evil American government and the "nice Yank I met on holiday in Florida last year" forgetting, of course, that the one elected the other.

Sometimes it could be comical. My A' Level English teacher used to make frequent belittling comments until I exploded one day. Then about 6 months later he went on an exchange program and came back raving about how he wanted to emigrate.

I don't want to suggest that all Brits are Anti-American by any means. Actually, the opposite is probably true. I also found the same elsewhere in Europe, such as in Germany where I spent three very happy years. But those reflexively negative stereotype-based attitudes do exist, and some go so far as to nurture them deliberately.

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: SimeyTheLimey ]</STRONG>

I repeat my previous statement. "anti-american" is a meaningless and manipulative label that ignores the content/intent of actions/statements to debunk/marginalize.

Just like 'terrorist', it is utterly subjective and completely politicized. It has no real meaning and no real purpose but to incite and to inflame.

Something cannot be labled "anti-american" unless you except some codified definition of "american" that defies all reality.

And claiming that something isn't meaningless and baseless because it's widely used is a terrible argument. Lots of people use ignorant and meaningless terms to pigeon-hole, that doesn't make it meaningful, accurate or useful.

[daimoni]

.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by neill anblome:
<STRONG>Maybe I should start a new thread for this...but I haven't been to the States in a while and I absolutely refuse to believe that most people there support the current gov. and what it stands for politically and socially.</STRONG>

yup. they're called the majority of voters in the popular election (versus the electoral college/supreme court).
Admittedly, the vote was close, but that just means it was nearly evenly divided. That's why its so wearisome to hear those outside the US assuming we're all Bush-toadies. (well, some of us are...roughly half)

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
<STRONG>

I repeat my previous statement. "anti-american" is a meaningless and manipulative label that ignores the content/intent of actions/statements to debunk/marginalize.</STRONG>

I'm not really sure you guys realize it, but you're actually in agreement. You just think you're fighting. Both of you consider "anti-american" and "american" meaningless labels if they purport to accurately portray the diverse populations as a solid homogenous potato.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
<STRONG>

I repeat my previous statement. "anti-american" is a meaningless and manipulative label that ignores the content/intent of actions/statements to debunk/marginalize.

Just like 'terrorist', it is utterly subjective and completely politicized. It has no real meaning and no real purpose but to incite and to inflame.

Something cannot be labled "anti-american" unless you except some codified definition of "american" that defies all reality.

And claiming that something isn't meaningless and baseless because it's widely used is a terrible argument. Lots of people use ignorant and meaningless terms to pigeon-hole, that doesn't make it meaningful, accurate or useful.</STRONG>

You mean, like your use of the word "fascist" in your earlier post? Or was that a precise term.

You can choose not to see someting if you like. But I'd suggest that your above post could be used by any right winger trying to convince somebody that racism doesn't exist in America because it's all just a label.

Look, I lived as an incognito American in England for 19 years. I'm telling you what I saw, heard and felt. Dismiss it if you want to, but please cut out the BS Sociology 101 terms. "Some codified definition of "american" that defies all reality." WTF? Are you going to tell me that racism depends on the objective reality of the person being stereotyped? Please! This is no different.

[Lerkfish]

mmmmkaaayyy...

I'm going to explain why most of these threads get off on the wrong foot.

For the most part, our european and otherwise non-american posters here have problems with particular administration policies, past and present (and future). If you all would just start off by saying "I don't like administration policy number 132.3A because such and such...." You'd get a healthy debate, including americans since we seldom agree on administration policies ourselves. You might be surprised at our diverse opinions regarding them. Some of us are bound to agree with you.

But the problem is, you don't start off that way. You always start off hurling insults and talk about "america" this and "america" that, and really you're just objecting to certain specific things that don't apply to all americans by a long shot. But this style automatically triggers defense mechanisms unnecessarily (which, for some of you is the exact intent) instead of engendering a fertile ground for discussion.

Its much easier, of course, to simply stereotype and bash than it is to find out the truth by asking.

Next time, how about trying a thread that starts something like:

"I don't think that keeping an american military base in Taiwan is a good idea because....." You might see a quite different reaction from americans.

If you care, of course. Naturally, if all you want to do is kick us in the crotch and ask questions later, then by allmeans carry on...

[ReggieX]

Argh, I survived until now without, and all this damn coffee talk has riled my nerves!

That's it! I'm off to Star*ucks for the biggest goddamn syrup-laden caffeine confection they can make, and I'm blaming it ALL on you!

[tinrib]

trust a bunch of americans to take an entertaining thread and turn it into a boring text-heavy thread that i can't be bothered to read anymore.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
<STRONG>

You mean, like your use of the word "fascist" in your earlier post? Or was that a precise term.

You can choose not to see someting if you like. But I'd suggest that your above post could be used by any right winger trying to convince somebody that racism doesn't exist in America because it's all just a label.

Look, I lived as an incognito American in England for 19 years. I'm telling you what I saw, heard and felt. Dismiss it if you want to, but please cut out the BS Sociology 101 terms. "Some codified definition of "american" that defies all reality." WTF? Are you going to tell me that racism depends on the objective reality of the person being stereotyped? Please! This is no different.</STRONG>

fas�cism

often Fascism

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Racism is a bad example, IMO, because genetically there is little evidence to support the concept of 'race'. Historically, racism has been a meaningless label and tool to disguise class conflicts or other more specific social problems.

I'm not suggesting you didn't see or hear people participating in speech/activities that were against some aspect of politics/culture that was considered American. I suggesting that labeling such activity as 'anti-american' doesn't say anything.

What is American changes with every individual. Even government policies are not static concepts. Since American policy tends to change with elections and conditions, expressing criticism of a particular policy can hardly be called "anti-american". Calling it that is merely inflamatory rhetoric to avoid the real issue.

I don't think we're actually that far apart on this. Maybe it's semantics, but I think it's meaningful. Throwing around words and lables that fail to effectively categorize speech/activity merely adds to the confusion and blocks helpful discussion or understanding.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by tinrib:
<STRONG>trust a bunch of americans to take an entertaining thread and turn it into a boring text-heavy thread that i can't be bothered to read anymore. </STRONG>

Well, I went to your schools.!

It's taken me years to reduce the size and complexity of my sentences. And I'm still not there.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
<STRONG>

fas�cism

often Fascism

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Racism is a bad example, IMO, because genetically there is little evidence to support the concept of 'race'. Historically, racism has been a meaningless label and tool to disguise class conflicts or other more specific social problems.

I'm not suggesting you didn't see or hear people participating in speech/activities that were against some aspect of politics/culture that was considered American. I suggesting that labeling such activity as 'anti-american' doesn't say anything.

What is American changes with every individual. Even government policies are not static concepts. Since American policy tends to change with elections and conditions, expressing criticism of a particular policy can hardly be called "anti-american". Calling it that is merely inflamatory rhetoric to avoid the real issue.

I don't think we're actually that far apart on this. Maybe it's semantics, but I think it's meaningful. Throwing around words and lables that fail to effectively categorize speech/activity merely adds to the confusion and blocks helpful discussion or understanding.</STRONG>

Anti-American is a term used in the UK for reflexive hostility towards Americans. I would have thought that was obvious.

Race might not exist, but racISM certainly does. It is not meaningless to those who live with its effects.

Likewise, there may be no objective thing as an ethnic American (completely uniform, culturally, politically, ethnically) but there certainly is a stereotype out there that is widely held. That is a feature and application of anti-Americanism.

That anti-Americanism is a driving force behind much criticism of America and Americans. By no means all, but much more than you apparently think. Europeans have acknowledged the fact for a long time. I'm surprsed it is news to you.

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: SimeyTheLimey ]

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
<STRONG>

Anti-American is a term used in the UK for reflexive hostility towards Americans. I would have thought that was obvious.

Race might not exist, but racISM certainly does.

Likewise, there may be no objective thing as an American (uniform, culturally, politically, ethnically) but there certainly is a stereotype out there that is widely held. That is a feature and application of anti-Americanism.

That anti-Americanism is a driving force behind much criticism of America and Americans. By no means all, but much more than you apparently think. Europeans have acknowledged the fact for a long time. I'm surprsed it is news to you.</STRONG>

Now I think I see. We're talking past each other. You're saying it exists. I'm saying it's meaningless despite heavy usage. I know the label is used, i'm trying to point out that it's a useless inflamatory label to marginalize real communication about real issues.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
<STRONG>

Now I think I see. We're talking past each other. You're saying it exists. I'm saying it's meaningless despite heavy usage. I know the label is used, i'm trying to point out that it's a useless inflamatory label to marginalize real communication about real issues.</STRONG>

I don't know why you are hung up on the label. What matters is the thing described. That thing is an often accepted form of bigotry -- a widely held and often unfairly negative stereotype about an identifiable group.

All I am saying is that I find that stereotype no more acceptable than other forms of bigotry. That's really all I have said all morning!

[SimeyTheLimey]

But it's nice that we agree.