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amsalpemkcus · Jul 15, 2002, 10:01 AM

From MacMinute:

July 15 - 00:45 ET A Wall Street Journal article (paid subscription required) discusses the displeasure that some major developers are voicing over the sales of Mac OS X software and Apple's promotion of the operating system. In particular, Microsoft blames Apple's marketing for lackluster sales of Office v.X: 300,000 copies to date, behind the pace of 750,000 it wanted for its first year, come November. While Microsoft remains committed to delivering another version of Office in 2003, "it's harder to predict [past that]. If things don't dramatically turn around, we'll be evaluating this business with Apple," Kevin Browne, head of Microsoft's Macintosh Business Unit, told the publication. Corel has likewise expressed concern: after delivering seven Mac OS X titles, the company has found that most of its users continue to work with Mac OS 9. Apple's Phil Schiller, senior vice president of world-wide product marketing, calls such claims "very misplaced," saying that 2.5 million users are using Mac OS X and that the company expects 5 million users by the end of year, "on top of our targets." Not all developers share this sentiment, however; Adobe saw Mac sales rise from 27 percent of its business to 31 percent last quarter, a move that it attributes largely to the release of Mac OS X titles.

amsalpemkcus · Jul 15, 2002, 10:03 AM

Cmon! people give up on classic and go on to OS X!!

ink · Jul 15, 2002, 10:15 AM

Whatever. They came out with Office 2001, and then about one year later they come out with a buggy new version and then wonder why nobody bought it.... Microsoft is just upset with the "switch" campaign, and I can't imagine that they love the idea of Apple promoting open source software and open standards like OpenGL.

ringo · Jul 15, 2002, 10:36 AM

Gee, I don't suppose the $459.95 price tag for Office on OS X has anything to do with it?

Shouldn't Microsoft be responsible for marketing their own products? Or is Apple expected to ignore it's own office bundle and help fatten MS's pockets instead?

BRussell · Jul 15, 2002, 10:51 AM

Wow, that's the first negative comment I've heard from MS about Apple. Sounds like the beginning of the end to me.

Apple better start dusting off its AppleWorks.

BillStevenson · 05:13 PM

[deleted]

theolein · Jul 15, 2002, 12:35 PM

I was wondering when this was going to start. I don't think Office v.X has sold badly. Especially considering that so many Mac users have not switched over to Mac OSX. Added to all this that Microsoft has no bundling deals with Apple for Office v.X. It is more expensive than Office on the PC and has been less than a good performer compared to other carbonised applications. Corel is another bunch of idiots. Their Draw/Paint suite costs a lot of money for what it does (around $499) and I truly cannot imagine that many people will go for an application of that cost that a)has no tryout version for the Mac and b)has no screenshots or walk thoughs etc. Corel are themsleves to blame for the poor showing of Corel's applications. Not only this but I can't imagine Corels suite selling well on PC's either. On Windows the choices are much wider in terms of software and there are plenty of affordable graphics packages (JASC) that more people would buy.

My message to big, corporate pig fu�kers out there: Stop trying to rip people off. Stop trying to control people's lives. Treat your customers with respect. Do some of your own advertising.

starman · Jul 15, 2002, 12:45 PM

I almost picked up Office v.X but damn, that $459 price tag just bugs me, especially when I NEVER, EVER use PP and Excel. Whatever happened to the Word/Entourage bundle? I can't find that anywhere, and I think that was for OS 9 only.

Mike

Ken_F2 · Jul 15, 2002, 12:50 PM

We have a thread on this running in the OSX Software forum as well, but...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Apple's Phil Schiller, senior vice president of world-wide product marketing, calls such claims "very misplaced," saying that 2.5 million users are using Mac OS X and that the company expects 5 million users by the end of year, "on top of our targets." <hr /></blockquote>While I don't question that Apple has sold a combined 2.5 million copies of OSX, I highly doubt there are 2.5 million users with it as their primary work OS. If you still use OS9 a good amount of the time, then there is really no point to upgrade to Office X. I think we'll begin to see more users move to OSX full time with the release of 10.2, so perhaps that will improve Office X sales.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Gee, I don't suppose the $459.95 price tag for Office on OS X has anything to do with it?

Shouldn't Microsoft be responsible for marketing their own products? Or is Apple expected to ignore it's own office bundle and help fatten MS's pockets instead?<hr /></blockquote>Microsoft already spends a good deal on advertising for the Mac...pick up any Mac magazine, and you find more Microsoft ads than you do for Apple, Adobe, and Macromedia combined.

As for pricing...Assuming you own an earlier version of Office (or Word/Excel) for Mac, the upgrade price for Office X isn't that bad--about $250 online. I haven't checked recently, but I believe the price for students is about $150 for the full version (non-upgrade). Go to the education area of Apple's store and search for Office. Unfortunately, most people don't seem to know that substantial discounts are available for teachers/students.

theolein · Jul 15, 2002, 01:05 PM

I truly wonder where all of this will go? Microsoft are trying to make an OS that they can use to legally force you to pay a subscription to use every year (Announced last week that Win2k will no longer be sold after March 2003.). Microsoft are making an OS that will need pig fu�ker permission to run *any* software (Palladium). They don't like your competition then they don't give you a certificate and then you're fu�ked. They then have absolute control over your data and your computer and have a guaranteed source of revenue for all eternitiy because no government is ever going to try and stop them.

My opinion is that gates has decided that he's played nice to Apple for long enough. This is an excuse for him to stop Office on the Mac. The Mac community has not really bothered to try and support OpenOffice, unlike the Linux community where it is a truly viable alternative, and there will be no Office package on OSX. Appleworks is a neglected POS.

Apple needs to get fast, affordable processors NOW! Apple needs to get either Appleworks modernised or support OpenOffice. And they need to do it soon.

scottiB · Jul 15, 2002, 01:57 PM

Rather than start a new thread regarding MS and Apple, cnet posted an article: <a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-943859.html" target="_blank">Microsoft tries to steal Macworld thunder</a>

Couple tidbits:

"Microsoft on Monday launched the first of several pre-emptive strikes against Apple Computer's Macworld trade show by making announcements about new technologies far ahead of their delivery to market.

The strategic attack comes as tensions mount between Apple and Microsoft. During Macworld five years ago, the two companies announced a five-year technology agreement, whereby Microsoft committed to continued development of Office and Internet Explorer for the Mac.

This part startled me--bold emphsis is mine:

"Microsoft, for example, was instrumental in helping Apple resolve problems with Mac OS X, the next-generation version of the Macintosh operating system released in March 2001. That effort culminated in the September release of Mac OS X 10.1... .

I've never heard that.

driven · Jul 15, 2002, 02:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by amsalpemkcus:
From MacMinute:

July 15 - 00:45 ET A Wall Street Journal article (paid subscription required) discusses the displeasure that some major developers are voicing over the sales of Mac OS X software and Apple's promotion of the operating system. In particular, Microsoft blames Apple's marketing for lackluster sales of Office v.X: 300,000 copies to date, behind the pace of 750,000 it wanted for its first year, come November. While Microsoft remains committed to delivering another version of Office in 2003, "it's harder to predict [past that]. If things don't dramatically turn around, we'll be evaluating this business with Apple," Kevin Browne, head of Microsoft's Macintosh Business Unit, told the publication. Corel has likewise expressed concern: after delivering seven Mac OS X titles, the company has found that most of its users continue to work with Mac OS 9. Apple's Phil Schiller, senior vice president of world-wide product marketing, calls such claims "very misplaced," saying that 2.5 million users are using Mac OS X and that the company expects 5 million users by the end of year, "on top of our targets." Not all developers share this sentiment, however; Adobe saw Mac sales rise from 27 percent of its business to 31 percent last quarter, a move that it attributes largely to the release of Mac OS X titles.<hr /></blockquote>Does anyone find anything funny about Microsoft criticising Apple and spreading FUD?

xi_hyperon · Jul 15, 2002, 02:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I almost picked up Office v.X but damn, that $459 price tag just bugs me, especially when I NEVER, EVER use PP and Excel. Whatever happened to the Word/Entourage bundle? I can't find that anywhere, and I think that was for OS 9 only.<hr /></blockquote>

You can still buy Word separately, although I don't know about a bundle with Entourage. Keep in mind Mail.app will be quite impressive when Jaguar rolls out.

[ 07-15-2002, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: xi_hyperon ]

driven · Jul 15, 2002, 02:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
big, corporate pig fu�kers<hr /></blockquote>Wow ... mind if I steel that expression some time?

driven · Jul 15, 2002, 02:06 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
I truly wonder where all of this will go? Microsoft are trying to make an OS that they can use to legally force you to pay a subscription to use every year (Announced last week that Win2k will no longer be sold after March 2003.). Microsoft are making an OS that will need pig fu�ker permission to run *any* software (Palladium). They don't like your competition then they don't give you a certificate and then you're fu�ked. They then have absolute control over your data and your computer and have a guaranteed source of revenue for all eternitiy because no government is ever going to try and stop them.
<hr /></blockquote>I have not heard about this (Palladium).

What are the details here? Will you need a certificate from Microsoft to run your products on their OS? (If this is off topic please feel free to PM me)

OldManMac · Jul 15, 2002, 02:14 PM

IMHO, this is mostly posturing, designed to steal some of the thunder of MacWorld. It's also a "friendly" little shot across Apple's bow, reminding them that they need to back off their "switcher" ads. I doubt much will come of this; M$ makes money off it's Apple compatible software, and has recently released more Mac software, including today's announcement of the release of a Palm compatible sync program for Entourage.

Developer · Jul 15, 2002, 03:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by scottiB:
"Microsoft, for example, was instrumental in helping Apple resolve problems with Mac OS X, the next-generation version of the Macintosh operating system released in March 2001. That effort culminated in the September release of Mac OS X 10.1... .

I've never heard that.<hr /></blockquote>Never heard that either, but later in the text it reads

Only after the release of Mac OS X 10.1, did MacBU general manager Kevin Browne discuss the 70 fixes Microsoft assisted Apple with.

So they probably just filed 70 bug reports (big deal). I doubt they had a look at the OS X source code and helped Apple to actually find those bugs.

Xaositect · Jul 15, 2002, 03:32 PM

The "assistance" was mostly in windows font format compatibility. You can now use either windows or mac truetype fonts. This was discussed in the ADC forums.

M$ is iritated that they haven't sold as many copies of OfficeX as they would like, and Apple is happy that they have sold more copies of OS X then they had predicted. Interesting fact-base from which to start these criticisms.

Leia Shoots Like a Girl · Jul 15, 2002, 04:02 PM

Ha ha ha, Apple just posted Quicktime 6! That otta shut MS up!
GO APPLE!

mchladek · Jul 15, 2002, 04:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />I almost picked up Office v.X but damn, that $459 price tag just bugs me, especially when I NEVER, EVER use PP and Excel. Whatever happened to the Word/Entourage bundle? I can't find that anywhere, and I think that was for OS 9 only.<hr /></blockquote>

You can still buy Word separately, although I don't know about a bundle with Entourage. Keep in mind Mail.app will be quite impressive when Jaguar rolls out.<hr /></blockquote>Last time I checked Word by itself was $399, that's completely ridiculous! Why are three apps $459 but one-third of the bundle is $399. Shouldn't Word be $150? Now that would be reasonable.

Edit: Yeah, I just checked at the AppleStore. Word, PowerPoint, or Excel are $369 individually. That's a rip off if I've ever seen one.

[ 07-15-2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: mchladek ]

theolein · Jul 15, 2002, 05:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by driven:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
big, corporate pig fu�kers<hr /></blockquote>Wow ... mind if I steel that expression some time?<hr /></blockquote>Sure you can steal it. Just as long as you include the GPL with it. It''s open source.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

olePigeon · Jul 15, 2002, 05:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by amsalpemkcus:
Cmon! people give up on classic and go on to OS X!!<hr /></blockquote>I'd love to, if it actually ran on my supposed "supported" computer.

Colonel Panic · Jul 15, 2002, 07:45 PM

<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-943859.html" target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2100-1040-943859.html</a>
that's the full article on "Microsoft Stealing MacWorld Thunder".
While the part about Microsoft "losing sleep" over some of the new features of Jag and being nervous about the stiff competition it represents are fun to read, this is a REAL problem for Apple.

you can complain about the price of Office v.X, but the bottom line is if Microsoft expects revenue of $X and doesn't get it eventually they are out the door, and Apple still needs them. Apple needs compatibility to fare well. Schiller saying they are misguided is besides the point. Their opinion/perception is all that matters if Apple wants Office.

MSFT is working on Explorer 6 and Apple is cutting deals with their arch-rival AOL...

This is scary, folks. the computer market is stagnating. The fish all want to grow but the pond is shrinking. Apple is looking for a unit sale growth strategy desperately, and the only route is to hit MSFT directly with the switcher campaign. And hey, MSFT doesn't like ads all over the place saying Windows sucks, especially since they are also feeling squeezed by a slow-to-no growth PC marketplace, and its not surprising they will want to hit back. Should they grin and bear it? or maybe release tons of ads saying MacOffice is dead and that hey, OSX is slow as molasses and the hardware costs a fortune. Won't they be fun to watch, true or not? or how about 10 random people who talk about how they paid $5G for a powermac setup and the can't resize their windows without stuttering or watch Real content, or some read new as-of-yet-unreleased-Office-file-format-being-cooked up-in-Redmond doesn't work or something else their $800 system can do with ease? Apple has vulnerabilities.

I just hope Apple knows what they are doing by crossing MSFT now. I hope they have the strength to take it if MSFT goes from warning shots to real attacks.

If this market stagnates further , MSFT might just look at Apple's 3% share as a relatively attractive growth opportunity and fire the guns. Apple has money , OS X 10.2, iApps and claims of Meghahertz Myth. Is that enough to hold them off?

[ 07-15-2002, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Colonel Panic ]

jcadam · Jul 15, 2002, 08:38 PM

If micro$oft pulls Office .X, we'll see OS X for x86 (along with all the iApps).

xi_hyperon · Jul 15, 2002, 09:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mchladek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />I almost picked up Office v.X but damn, that $459 price tag just bugs me, especially when I NEVER, EVER use PP and Excel. Whatever happened to the Word/Entourage bundle? I can't find that anywhere, and I think that was for OS 9 only.<hr /></blockquote>

You can still buy Word separately, although I don't know about a bundle with Entourage. Keep in mind Mail.app will be quite impressive when Jaguar rolls out.<hr /></blockquote>Last time I checked Word by itself was $399, that's completely ridiculous! Why are three apps $459 but one-third of the bundle is $399. Shouldn't Word be $150? Now that would be reasonable.

Edit: Yeah, I just checked at the AppleStore. Word, PowerPoint, or Excel are $369 individually. That's a rip off if I've ever seen one.<hr /></blockquote>Holy shit! What the hell is the point of offering them separately if they're gonna charge so much? MS is simply amazing at times

jholmes · Jul 15, 2002, 10:37 PM

A big chunk of the problem is located in Denver.

Quark Xpress is not X native. Until those mooks get up to date a bunch of folks won't move to OSX. The bulk of Apple's installed base is in Graphic Design. Quark is the page layout program most of us use. If it isn't X native then there is no reason for us to upgrade and pay a big piece of upgrade money for new programs that offer few concrete improvements.

If I upgrade all of my systems to X then I need to pop for new Adobe suites, new Macromedia suites, Office X and OSX and still the main program I use - Quark requires me to keep OS9 available most of the time. It is slower than what I have now and less efficient.

theolein · Jul 16, 2002, 02:03 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jcadam:
If micro$oft pulls Office .X, we'll see OS X for x86 (along with all the iApps).<hr /></blockquote>True. Billy boy will sh�t himself if OSX appears on x86. No one wants Palladium just like no one wants subscrition software and many would switch given the chance if there was a cheap alternative. Apple should just get their butts into gear and help in porting OpneOffice.

Big Mac · Jul 16, 2002, 02:14 AM

Microsoft once again shows its true colors. I was never deceived by platitudes from old Kev Browne - "We love the Mac! We're Mac users who love to write Mac software. . . Trust us!!" Of course maybe he's being strongarmed from the top - that wouldn't surprise me either. This is simply what Microsoft is all about. I really do feel for the gullible individuals who spent $500 of their hard earned cash to purchase that crap suite. I am quite proud that I will never of my own free will purchase a single Microsoft product. Whenever MS gets the chance to do something untoward, it certainly doesn't pass up the opportunity.

juanvaldes · Jul 16, 2002, 03:29 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mchladek:
[Last time I checked Word by itself was $399, that's completely ridiculous! Why are three apps $459 but one-third of the bundle is $399. Shouldn't Word be $150? Now that would be reasonable.

Edit: Yeah, I just checked at the AppleStore. Word, PowerPoint, or Excel are $369 individually. That's a rip off if I've ever seen one.<hr /></blockquote>but of course. That is the marketing team, it makes no sense in the world to buy them by themselves leaving you with little option but to just fork over the $500 for office.

Sucks but that is what happens when one company controls the entire market. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Ken_F2 · Jul 16, 2002, 05:41 AM

Where do you all get this $399-$500 pricing for Office X? Haven't you owned a single Microsoft app for Mac in your lifetime? Then the price is only ~$250 online. And if you're a student, or have a son/daughter that is a student, the price is about $150 for the full suite anyway.

Those who are saying Office X is crap clearly haven't used it, or are such strong zealots that they are totally delusional. Perhaps the parent company stinks, but anyone with at least some sense can see that Office X is a quality piece of overpriced software.

Do most people need all the features that Office X provides? Hell no. Is it overpriced, particularly if you're not a student, or can't take advantage of the upgrade price? Hell yes. But it's still a great piece of software, and you have to be blind not to see that.

nonhuman · Jul 16, 2002, 09:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ken_F2:
Where do you all get this $399-$500 pricing for Office X? Haven't you owned a single Microsoft app for Mac in your lifetime? Then the price is only ~$250 online. And if you're a student, or have a son/daughter that is a student, the price is about $150 for the full suite anyway.

Those who are saying Office X is crap clearly haven't used it, or are such strong zealots that they are totally delusional. Perhaps the parent company stinks, but anyone with at least some sense can see that Office X is a quality piece of overpriced software.

Do most people need all the features that Office X provides? Hell no. Is it overpriced, particularly if you're not a student, or can't take advantage of the upgrade price? Hell yes. But it's still a great piece of software, and you have to be blind not to see that.<hr /></blockquote>I've used Office v.X, and I still prefer Emacs (with LaTeX for formatting).

gattur · Jul 16, 2002, 03:02 PM

I doubt that Microsoft would pull the plug on Office for OSX. If they did and Apple disappeared (I doubt this would happen) the DOJ and the FTC would have an easier time nailing them for the monopoly thing. Right now Apple helps Microsoft because they can say, "We aren't a monopoly, look at Apple, obviously people are just choosing the better software, but they do have a choice."

Blame Microsoft Office for all spelling and grammar mistakes in this message.