[KellyHogan]

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.20A.WRP.Dirty.htm

[Justin W. Williams]

I am so sick of politics. Almost as much as I am sick of Linkin Park and Nickleback.

[Millennium]

You do know that David Icke thins Dubia is one of them (I believe there's no need to say who they are at this point), right?

In all seriousness, it's already known that there was something shady going on with this guy's election. If you don't feel Dubya's legitimate, then neither should you feel Chavez was, and for similar reasons. I have no problem with you believing whatever you will, but at least be consistent about it.

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>You do know that David Icke thins Dubia is one of them (I believe there's no need to say who they are at this point), right?

In all seriousness, it's already known that there was something shady going on with this guy's election. If you don't feel Dubya's legitimate, then neither should you feel Chavez was, and for similar reasons. I have no problem with you believing whatever you will, but at least be consistent about it.</STRONG>

You're going to compare Chavez, a man who chased out corporate criminals in favor of implementing free education and health care, to Dubya?

Also, inserting David Icke is a waste of time. It's also not fair to pick on Icke as he has been suffering from esteem, physical and psychological problems since his late teens and nobody wants to help put him on the right track. He started out as a regular critic and clean cut Christian and when people attacked him for that it hurt him and all the wildest conspiracy theorists preyed on him. Still, he's made money out of his over the top material.

[BRussell]

Some perspective on Chavez:
He himself attempted a coup just 10 years ago.

His platform was to abolish their 1961 Constitution, and the Supreme Court and Assembly, basically taking all the power for himself.

Chavez fired the directors of the state oil company, and installed his own people in power.

The military put Chavez back in power after the coup.

I think what happened is he ticked off a lot of people in Venezuela, who overthrew him, and then had second thoughts about what they had done, so put him back.

BTW, how many threads do we need about this, Kelly? Isn't this about the fourth in the past week?

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by BRussell:
<STRONG>Some perspective on Chavez:
He himself attempted a coup just 10 years ago.

His platform was to abolish their 1961 Constitution, and the Supreme Court and Assembly, basically taking all the power for himself.

Chavez fired the directors of the state oil company, and installed his own people in power.

The military put Chavez back in power after the coup.

I think what happened is he ticked off a lot of people in Venezuela, who overthrew him, and then had second thoughts about what they had done, so put him back.

BTW, how many threads do we need about this, Kelly? Isn't this about the fourth in the past week?</STRONG>

Chavez was ELECTED and thus what he tried to do ten years ago does not matter (and was no less comparable to the Americans fighting for independence from the British. It was a rebel movement.). He is the POPULAR leader.


Chavez fired the directors of the state oil company? Good on him. He took control and took action in order to provide education and welfare for his people. How I long to see leaders with balls who don't take **** from fatcats and serve the people who elect them.

Did you read what Bush said about him? Bush said just because Chavez is the popular leader does not make him the right leader. Straight from the horse's mouth from the donkey who got the lesser votes and is currently ****ing up all the US relations possible.

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by BRussell:
<STRONG>
BTW, how many threads do we need about this, Kelly?</STRONG>

Because Chavez is buddies with Fidel and is looking more and more like a communist himself. Kelly has a soft spot for commies.

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<STRONG>

Because Chavez is buddies with Fidel and is looking more and more like a communist himself. Kelly has a soft spot for commies.</STRONG>

Well, Socialist theories. Don't confuse that with the Cold War term 'commie' which means nothing to anyone who has studied beyond Elementary level. I don't believe in complete market liberalization, one world economy, one world consumer culture, unplanned economies or the exploitation of labour power and resources. There's nothing democratic about what I call 'ultra-capitalism'.

I could be described as a Social-Democrat. Pure socialists 100 years and more ago believed that socialism would eventually come about through technological change and that due to new inventions and changing lifestyles and social structure, society would make do with as little governance as possible. Government would simply be a body of representatives who planned the economy and distributed resources according to the needs of individuals. Some socialists were a little to eager though and thought all that could be done 100 years ago and so they started a violent class war agains the rich. That was a big mistake. A social-democrat believes that the democratic process will lead to a better society. Social-democrats also have nothing against private ownership of businesses and land as long as the owners are not influencing government to create coups in third world nations and as long as the land owners don't raise the cost of living so high that a large amount of people have to live on the streets.

As you can see, life is expensive because land is expensive. To pay for the land, businesses have to charge high prices for goods and services so they can pay their rents and rates. That means consumers not only have to pay more for goods but are left with little money to pay for their own homes and leave to their children. Hence in the west we have youth crime rising every year. Stanford professor Joseph Stiglitz suggest we attack (not physically) the landowners (typically banks..who get their money from us) for creating this situation in the first place. Maybe we need to nationalize land and property in areas effected the worst. But then you even get people in legislative positions who increase the cost of living. Take Westminster Council. When I had a business in the centre of London the rates went from �23,000 per annum to �100,000 per annum in less than five years. The land is privately owned by the Duke of Westminster so the council is not really part of the government. The rates don't reflect reality and that is because massively wealthy landowners and oligarchs don't live in the real world.

Our Labour government here in Britain is supposed to be socialist but is trying to privatize everything regardless of the many examples of failure in the private sector. Under pressure they are learning that the people want better nationalized services than bad privatized services and private companies that run off when they can't make enough money.

[macthelastredman]

yadda yadda....yadda yadda

[shmerek]

Why do some many people find things like this so hard to believe? At least the guy is providing for his people unlike so many governments and what the **** is the deal with Bush's comment about just because he is the popular leader doesn't make him the right leader? Right leader for who bushy boy? That is a pretty telling statement of little ole george. Nutjob.

[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: shmerek ]

[Millennium]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>You're going to compare Chavez, a man who chased out corporate criminals in favor of implementing free education and health care, to Dubya?</STRONG>

Do the ends justify the means? If not for one, then not for the other one either.

Also, inserting David Icke is a waste of time. It's also not fair to pick on Icke as he has been suffering from esteem, physical and psychological problems since his late teens and nobody wants to help put him on the right track.

Um, I hope you mean "insulting" Icke. I have no interest whatsoever in "inserting" him.

He started out as a regular critic and clean cut Christian and when people attacked him for that it hurt him and all the wildest conspiracy theorists preyed on him. Still, he's made money out of his over the top material.

Interesting. So you're saying that his actions are justified because he's made money off of them?

The man is probably harmless. I'll grant you that much. But that doesn't make his stuff any less hilarious.

[Captain Obvious]

For gods sake Hogan, how many times do you have to elaborate on one stupid @ss theme. Yes, we all know you think the world's governments are run by some shadow secret society. Now go find anything else to talk about, hell even your mother is more entertaining than this.

I thought you lived abroad anyway.

[Scrod]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
<STRONG>Yes, we all know you think the world's governments are run by some shadow secret society.</STRONG>

Yeah, anyone who's played Metal Gear Solid 2 knows this. Darn those Patriots and their schemes.

[KellyHogan]

I never said one single word about a secret society. I don't need to either. The world is not run by secret societies because the guys to blame are on TV every day.