[Its_me]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
<STRONG>

KH - "WHAT!? I DIDN'T WIN THE MARATHON? I HAVE NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT I WON THE MARATHON...FAH-Q ALL!"

"But sir, 64 people crossed the finish line before you did."

KH - "I've won marathons before, therefore, I won this one, you son of a *****."

"Ummm...riiiight. Bye!"</STRONG>

KH - "but I DID win the marathon.....if you don't agree than you must be a FANATIC.....I don't need FANCY PHYSICS to prove that I won the race....I just know that I won it...you just wait...I will be VINDICATED"

[Snappy�]

Originally posted by Its_me:
<STRONG>

KH - "but I DID win the marathon.....if you don't agree than you must be a FANATIC.....I don't need FANCY PHYSICS to prove that I won the race....I just know that I won it...you just wait...I will be VINDICATED"
</STRONG>

Hehe...it's funny because it's true.

[Big Mac]

You know, Hogan, you certainly are brazen while in the comfort of your rat-infested hovel, you depraved freak. I'm so very happy that the rest of this board sees you for the vermin you truly are. Why don't you tell us who you are, sicko? Perhaps you can provide a portrait. . . oh wait, I think I found it here!

It's really difficult to envisage a being much lower than you, Hogan. You are a disease. Surely there would be a massive dump in drawers if you even thought Moki was coming to settle the score. Keep talking big, little b**ch.

[Gee-Man]

You know, I re-read some of the last few messages in this thread and realized that KellyHogan isn't all that bad after all. He keeps calling Apple, Apple programmers, Apple code, Quartz Extreme, and Moki "phat" - what a nice guy! So many compliments from one person!

Since everybody knows that "phat" is a good thing, as I'm sure KellyHogan knows, since he loves to use the slang word in the correct context, maybe we should all leave him alone. After all, he is a card-carrying member and chief representative of the "silent majority", and the one lone sane voice in the wilderness of Mac fanatics. He truly is "phat".

I for one would enjoy the chance to share a phat beer in his phat pad with his phat digital hub!

&lt;/sarcasm&gt;

[Northform]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>

If point two is correct then it isn't the Rage 128 that is at fault. It has plenty of power to have apps mapped to polygons. It has plenty of power to have a snappy interface. The problem lies in Quartz Extreme's API. It's just phat and taxing on graphics cards. If that is so then Apple should have quit using the Rage 128 last year. Yet they continue to ship this chip in some of their systems. That's not honorable considering they knew they would not use it to accelerate QE.

The idea that software Quartz wil be faster come September is just a theory. It might be just as slow as it is now. In fact, if Apple adds even more effects then Quartz will be even slower rendering on the CPU than it is now. Apple won't produce a snappy interface for G3 iBook owners regardless and even some G4 machines will be left in the shadows. If they do, then my hat goes off to them but they should have done that by now and they couldn't. They took years and years just to get some live resizing and they are still working on it.

Microsoft's version is better, supports older hardware and gives the user options to turn off whatever effects they think is getting in the way. And in Longhorn they will demonstrate how to map apps to polygons properly.

Quartz is phat and slow like Moki running a marathon.</STRONG>

The Rage 128 doesn't have anti-aliasing support as I recall.

[Kickaha]

Originally posted by Gee-Man:
<STRONG>He keeps calling Apple, Apple programmers, Apple code, Quartz Extreme, and Moki "phat"...</STRONG>

If I were Moki, I think I'd be nervous.

phat = pretty hot and tempting

[residentEvil]

i think this has been brought up before, but:

all this crap about a possible UI speed increase (I say possible because well, I don't have it yet, so I can't say it improved anything; marketing folks do that in every firm, that whole NEW and IMPROVED and SHINIER and etc) makes you (and others) go on such a anti company/why are you doing this to me/how dare you make my *insert product here* obsolete.

just because a percentage of users can't use a feature or a product doesn't make that company bad nor are they doing it to piss you off or make more money by making you buy a NEW product (10.x will still run just fine on your machine and will possibly have a UI increase anyway, just not with the QE). hell, because i'm male should i start a maxipad thread stating how dare they release a new panty shield product that now i can't use because my sac is too large when the old version allowed me to sit comfortably? its a new feature to millions of women but to some it can't be used? (women who where thongs i'm sure don't have pads, they made the decision to change to tampons).

(pads = pci, tampons = agp, male = older machines without new agp support or card type supported in a laptop, female = that NEW product just released 10 minutes ago)

enough already.

[Guy Incognito]

Picture of Kelly Hogan...



This particular one is sexy...



And he (she...she-male) even has a fan page...

Kelly Hogan Fan Page

Kelly! I didn't know you sang! Sing us a tune.

*my apologies to the actual singer, Kelly Hogan.

[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]

[moki]

Originally posted by Its_me:
<STRONG>

He he..and I suppose YOU have run a marathon?...Knowing your ego, you'll probably reply that you've won the London marathon a few times </STRONG>

Actually winning a marathon would be pretty damn impressive -- I've done a couple of marathons, and each time, the guy who won it ran at just over a 5 minute-mile pace... for all 26.2 miles.

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by moki:
<STRONG>

Actually winning a marathon would be pretty damn impressive -- I've done a couple of marathons, and each time, the guy who won it ran at just over a 5 minute-mile pace... for all 26.2 miles.</STRONG>

That's because you were chasing him, chicken legs.

[Nonsuch]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
<STRONG>Kelly! I didn't know you sang! Sing us a tune.

*my apologies to the actual singer, Kelly Hogan.
</STRONG>

I've seen Kelly Hogan a few times here in Chicago ... a good singer and, by all accounts, a good lady. I would hate anyone to form any negative associations of her.

[KellyHogan]

Shite, man. I'm not Kelly Hogan the singer. I need a new handle. I know! Mokistani Taleban! Maybe not.

[Mithras]

Well, as long as the thread is completely degenerating...

Kelly, just be glad that this moki doesn't come after you:




[EDIT: It seems moki has taken down the Halloween drag photo. Sorry if you didn't want that linked, moki. ]

[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: Mithras ]

[KellyHogan]

[Mithras]

Is it just me, or has Kelly actually been in a pretty good mood those last several posts? Keep it up, Kelly

As for the PCI/AGP Rage 128/GPU question:

I tracked down some leaked Microsoft documents that outlined the tentative requirements for the Longhorn graphics system. Note that the Longhorn compositing will bring Windows up to Mac OS X's Quartz compositing capabilities.

Windows Longhorn also will see the introduction of a composition drawing model. In a compositional model, the final image is produced by a two-stage process. In the first stage applications perform accelerated 2D or 3D rendering to off screen surfaces. Subsequently, these off screen surfaces are composed to form the final image. Composition is accomplished by Direct3D accelerated rendering where the off-screen surfaces are used as textures for drawing operations targeting the final render target.

They were once posted on Microsoft.com, but have since been removed - the Microsoft.com docs now simply read 'this information to be provided later'. I found the earlier versions on a Windows-info site.

One document laid out the calculations for the minimum required graphics/memory bandwidth. In order to drive a 1024x768 display with the new compositing engine, they recommended a minimum 0.93 GB/sec bandwidth, which you'll note is roughly AGP 2x. So that should lay that question to rest.

They didn't yet have recommendations for the required 3D chip. But I did find this blurb over at the PC tech site, Tom's Hardware

Multi-tasking Graphics - Microsoft's next generation operating system, Longhorn, is pushing the industry to create graphics processors that will offload almost all of the typical functions of managing windowed displays. This means that every window on your desktop becomes a 3D texture, whether it is running a game, a digital video, or an Office application. The CPU has to handle all of Longhorn's open apps, videos, and games running in multiple windows, and Microsoft is working on determining how much graphics hardware it should ask for as a minimum to keep its OS humming. The graphics processor becomes a true partner processor for the CPU, but the question is, how low will Microsoft keep the bar on graphics performance and features? Will Microsoft open up the PC and graphics markets by demanding a significantly higher level of 3D graphics performance for base level Longhorn systems than what we are seeing today, or will it try and hedge its bets by staying a generation or two behind the curve?

So the Tom's Hardware guys are speculating whether Longhorn will require hardware significantly more powerful than todays. And elsewhere they mention that it will need fully programmable GPU units. None of which looks good for the Rage 128, by the way...[/LIST]
[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: Mithras ]

[Mithras]

Also read this choice bit from the Tom's Hardware article:

With DX9, Microsoft is pretty much making it obligatory for graphics processors to support any window as a possible surface. Everything from the rendering of video to wide lines will have to be tessellated and rendered through DX9. Even images are to be represented as a texture, rather than as a bitmap.

Texture processing isn't going to be just about 3D graphics in Longhorn. It will apply to all aspects of window management, and even things like how paths and widened lines are displayed.

As a result of the expectations put on the texture processing engine, filtering and anti-aliasing demands on the graphics processor will also increase. In this case, 3Dlabs has its bases covered.

* Textures can be arbitrary sizes, which is a requirement for DX9.
*Filtering is programmable beyond anistropic, bi-cubic and other hardwired texture formats. This is increasingly going to be important in future versions of Windows where the graphics hardware is going to have to support imaging applications that require higher order filtering and specialized support.

So DirectX 9, which will be part of the Longhorn compositing engine, will require arbitrary texture sizes.

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by Mithras:
<STRONG>Is it just me, or has Kelly actually been in a pretty good mood those last several posts? Keep it up, Kelly
[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: Mithras ]</STRONG>

It's not my day off. Working, you know. It's damn hot too and I'm busy with chocolate cheesecakes, cold milk, blondes, etc

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by Mithras:
<STRONG>
So the Tom's Hardware guys are speculating whether Longhorn will require hardware significantly more powerful than todays. And elsewhere they mention that it will need fully programmable GPU units. None of which looks good for the Rage 128, by the way...[/LIST]
[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: Mithras ]</STRONG>

It looks good for the Rage 128 more so on Longhorn than on Quartz Extreme for a simple reason. As the article stated, the API used in Longhorn is Direct 3D thus any Direct 3D accelerator will be able to power Microsoft's new GUI compositing. Quartz Extreme however is crippled on some graphics cards regardless if the user wants to try it or not. Some will obviously do a better job than others but considering how much better driver support is on Windows and also support for older graphics cards I think the Rage 128 Pro will do a very good job. Microsoft's engineers on the Task Gallery website said that the consumer level cards could offload textures to main memory with little performance hit. Microsoft, as I mentioned earlier, also give the user options to turn of certain effects and use different skins.

Apple are new to this and need regular upgraders in their niche market.

I do have one more quibble. What about the Rage 128 Ultra found in some Macs? This card has performance comparable to the Radeon Mobility. And still, I have not had an answer as to whether the Radeon Mobility, which lacks transform and lighting and is not a GPU, is supported by Quartz Extreme.

[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: KellyHogan ]

[Northform]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>

It's not my day off. Working, you know. It's damn hot too and I'm busy with chocolate cheesecakes, cold milk, blondes, etc</STRONG>

Got milk? KellyHogan does. C'mon someone's gotta lock this thread. Just consider it a mercy killing. Talk about living past your usefulness.

~~Some Song~~

[JLL]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>As the article stated, the API used in Longhorn is Direct 3D thus any Direct 3D accelerator will be able to power Microsoft's new GUI compositing.</STRONG>

This is YOUR assumption which isn't the same as fact.

QE uses OpenGL, but not any OpenGL card is powerful enough to support QE. (and I can - using your logic - say: Longhorn uses Direct 3D, but not any Direct 3D card is powerful enough to support acceleration in Longhorn).

[Mithras]

Casually stepping over the idiotic response, I hope everyone else found the Longhorn information interesting. I know I did.

Longhorn has been rescheduled for release in mid 2004, by the way.

[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: Mithras ]

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by JLL:
<STRONG>

This is YOUR assumption which isn't the same as fact.

QE uses OpenGL, but not any OpenGL card is powerful enough to support QE. (and I can - using your logic - say: Longhorn uses Direct 3D, but not any Direct 3D card is powerful enough to support acceleration in Longhorn).</STRONG>

No. Quartz Extreme is a modified Open GL wrapper. Quartz is a seperate API. open GL on its own does not support PDF rendering and so on. However, Longhorn uses Direct 3D exclusively and the features will be user selectable to suit whatever hardware the user has.

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by Mithras:
<STRONG>Casually stepping over the idiotic response, I hope everyone else found the Longhorn information interesting. I know I did.

Longhorn has been rescheduled for release in mid 2004, by the way.

[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: Mithras ]</STRONG>

That would be the full upgrade. Many journalists themselves don't know the difference between .NET server, Longhorn and Blackcomb. Hell, some people even on this board think NT4 is Cairo. There are already smaller upgrades or special editions in the mean time which could introduce some of the new Direct 3D accelerated interface via Mira and Freestyle, both of which are on schedule for this and next year for use with Tablet PC and a new front end for handling digital multimedia.

[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: KellyHogan ]

[JLL]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>

No. Quartz Extreme is a modified Open GL wrapper. Quartz is a seperate API. open GL on its own does not support PDF rendering and so on. However, Longhorn uses Direct 3D exclusively and the features will be user selectable to suit whatever hardware the user has.</STRONG>

Did you even read Mithras quotes?

"Microsoft is working on determining how much graphics hardware it should ask for as a minimum to keep its OS humming."

and

"As a result of the expectations put on the texture processing engine, filtering and anti-aliasing demands on the graphics processor will also increase."

Oops, a Rage 128 doesn't support antialiasing.

[besson3c]

I tracked down some leaked Microsoft documents that outlined the tentative requirements for the Longhorn graphics system. Note that the Longhorn compositing will bring Windows up to Mac OS X's Quartz compositing capabilities.

Are they going vectors, or will it be transparencies and drop shadows and stuff over bitmaps? Will developers get this stuff for free?

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by JLL:
<STRONG>

Did you even read Mithras quotes?

"Microsoft is working on determining how much graphics hardware it should ask for as a minimum to keep its OS humming."

and

"As a result of the expectations put on the texture processing engine, filtering and anti-aliasing demands on the graphics processor will also increase."

Oops, a Rage 128 doesn't support antialiasing.</STRONG>

Cool. The minimum Microsoft considers is .93 GB/s. This is quite small and the Rage 128 can handle it on the AGP 2X bus. Very similar to the TNT2 that was handling Task Gallery. Read the articles.

Then regarding Rage 128 not supporting anti-aliasing, well sorry to burst your bubble but 3D anti-aliasing in computer games is quite different to text anti-aliasing which is what we are talking about in the 2D composition models. Just look at Cleartype on computers with the Rage 128 with XP installed such as some older Dell Inspiron laptops.

I can't believe you didn't understand that anti-aliasing referred to the text and not the windows themselves. Remember that the windows use a 3D API but are not 3D themselves.

[JLL]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>Just look at Cleartype on computers with the Rage 128 with XP installed such as some older Dell Inspiron laptops.

I can't believe you didn't understand that anti-aliasing referred to the text and not the windows themselves. Remember that the windows use a 3D API but are not 3D themselves.</STRONG>

I can't believe that you can compare Cleartype to antialiasing, but then again comparing apples to oranges is what you do.

[besson3c]

Cool. The minimum Microsoft considers is .93 GB/s. This is quite small and the Rage 128 can handle it on the AGP 2X bus. Very similar to the TNT2 that was handling Task Gallery. Read the articles.

I thought Quartz sucked because it wouldn't work with Rage 128 over PCI? Am I misunderstanding something?

[moki]

Originally posted by Mithras:
<STRONG>So DirectX 9, which will be part of the Longhorn compositing engine, will require arbitrary texture sizes.</STRONG>

Imagine that... they must have read all of those "fancy physics" too...

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by JLL:
<STRONG>

I can't believe that you can compare Cleartype to antialiasing, but then again comparing apples to oranges is what you do.</STRONG>

You are not quite getting it are you? When Apple or Microsoft refer to anti-aliasing in their new graphic compositing systems they are referring to text anti-aliasing. They are not talking about anti-aliasing 3D scenes like in computer games. The Rage 128 might not be able to handle that but it can certainly display anti-aliased text and is already doing so on both OSX and XP.

I have also been saying for many pages now that Microsoft gives the users options to turn off any effects that their hardware has problems with. Why are you not taking note of this even though I have repeated it many times? Are you aware that even now in 2002 you can install XP on a machine with a 6 year old graphics card and it runs fine if you adjust the effects? You can turn of solid window dragging and live window resizing. You can turn off any shadows, turn off anti-aliased text, lower the color depth of the icons and switch to a basic theme. The day Apple gives users such options is the day I concede that they do not want to tempt people to upgrade by slowing their systems down.

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by besson3c:
<STRONG>

I thought Quartz sucked because it wouldn't work with Rage 128 over PCI? Am I misunderstanding something?</STRONG>

We've been talking about the AGP version for about seven pages now. Catch up. You're as slow as Moki and Quartz.

[JLL]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>

You are not quite getting it are you? When Apple or Microsoft refer to anti-aliasing in their new graphic compositing systems they are referring to text anti-aliasing. They are not talking about anti-aliasing 3D scenes like in computer games. The Rage 128 might not be able to handle that but it can certainly display anti-aliased text and is already doing so on both OSX and XP.</STRONG>

You're the one not getting it. Cleartype is not antialiasing!! Sub pixel rendering is not the same tech as antialiasing.

[JLL]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>

We've been talking about the AGP version for about seven pages now. Catch up. You're as slow as Moki and Quartz.</STRONG>

I thought Moki and Quartz were phat.

Btw. back at page one when we still discussed the PCI version, you said:

"There is no doubt that the Rage 128 can handle QE if it is being programmed properly and drivers are not crippled."

[besson3c]

I have also been saying for many pages now that Microsoft gives the users options to turn off any effects that their hardware has problems with. Why are you not taking note of this even though I have repeated it many times? Are you aware that even now in 2002 you can install XP on a machine with a 6 year old graphics card and it runs fine if you adjust the effects? You can turn of solid window dragging and live window resizing. You can turn off any shadows, turn off anti-aliased text, lower the color depth of the icons and switch to a basic theme. The day Apple gives users such options is the day I concede that they do not want to tempt people to upgrade by slowing their systems down.

Sounds like you're shifting from "Quartz/Apple sucks because QE won't work over Rage 128" to conceeding that Apple should work with the technical limitations by allowing users to turn off effects.

Took you a long time to imply any sort of concession.

[besson3c]

We've been talking about the AGP version for about seven pages now. Catch up. You're as slow as Moki and Quartz.

The Macs shipping with Rage cards don't have AGP. You were saying that QE should work in Apple's Rage 128-equipped systems. Is this another concession?

It really is okay to admit that you were wrong, we are all wrong at times! No big deal!! It would get a lot of people off your case.

[Mithras]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>
That would be the full upgrade. Many journalists themselves don't know the difference between .NET server, Longhorn and Blackcomb. </STRONG>

Perhaps it will be clearer if I spoon-feed it, rather than asking everyone to read that long, long article. (everyone else, please take no offense)

To recap: .NET server is part of Whistler, which is Windows XP. It is not relevant to our discussion.

The official line from Microsoft is that a Release Candidate for Windows .NET Server will become available this summer and the code will release to manufacturing (RTM) in the second half of 2002.
A late 2002 RTM means general availability will be sometime in 2003. That delay is not the first for the server-half of Whistler.

Longhorn, which is relevant because it will include the compositing engine comparable to Quartz, as well as 3D acceleration comparable to Quartz Extreme, is scheduled for 2004:

"The next big wave for us is beyond 2003, which we're working on very hard, and Longhorn is the code name," Allchin said during his WinHEC keynote. Other speakers at WinHEC put the date for a Longhorn release further into 2004.

Those facts are the cause of this quote, from one Stephen P. Jobs:

"We think we are at least two years ahead of the other guys here, maybe further," Jobs said.

[JLL]

Originally posted by besson3c:
<STRONG>

The Macs shipping with Rage cards don't have AGP.</STRONG>

Yes they do. Some of the Power Mac G4s have AGP and Rage 128 Pro, and what about the iBook?

[Mithras]

Originally posted by besson3c:
<STRONG>
The Macs shipping with Rage cards don't have AGP. You were saying that QE should work in Apple's Rage 128-equipped systems. Is this another concession?
</STRONG>

I'm pretty sure the original Powermac G4 (AGP graphics) had Rage 128s. So did Yikes!, except with PCI. The difference between the two is finally coming home to roost, since AGP G4s will be upgradable to QE-capable cards, while the PCI G4s will not.

Since Kelly has (without particular apology or concession) moved on from the PCI vs AGP question, we need only remind ourselves of this quote, which as Moki noted should put the nail in the Rage 128's coffin:

So DirectX 9, which will be part of the Longhorn compositing engine, will require arbitrary texture sizes.

[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: Mithras ]

[besson3c]

Yes they do. Some of the Power Mac G4s have AGP and Rage 128 Pro, and what about the iBook?

I stand corrected and apologize to Kelly.

[JLL]

Originally posted by besson3c:
<STRONG>

I stand corrected and apologize to Kelly.</STRONG>

At least you admit when you're wrong instead of twisting your points

[besson3c]

At least you admit when you're wrong instead of twisting your points

I was denied my vindication from my fancy physics this time. Oh well, my penis hasn't seemed to have gotten any smaller.

[P]

Originally posted by JLL:
<STRONG>

Yes they do. Some of the Power Mac G4s have AGP and Rage 128 Pro, and what about the iBook?</STRONG>

All slot-loading iMacs have AGP, so I think there are more Macs with Rage over AGP than Rage over PCI.

[macaddled]

As we now stare deeply into the dying embers, poking here and there for signs of life ... let us all look to each other and nod knowingly.

That, my friends, was a damn good flame war. This is what the Internet is all about. &lt;wipes away lone tear&gt;

[Northform]

quote:Originally posted by besson3c:

The Macs shipping with Rage cards don't have AGP.

Originally posted by JLL:
<STRONG>

Yes they do. Some of the Power Mac G4s have AGP and Rage 128 Pro, and what about the iBook?</STRONG>

I wanted to have both posts above before I replied and trashed what JLL said.

1. None of the shipping powermacs have rage cards, but some of the G4s had them over AGP in the past.

2. The iBook doesn't have a graphics card. The reason it is called a graphics card is because it is a card that fits into a slot. The iBook's graphics chipset is built on to the motherboard and so isn't a rage card over agp (Stretching it a little?)

3. Further (if you want to go by the exact wording of the original post) there isn't a single mac being shipped with a rage chipset. There are some shipping with Rage 128. Apple has never offered the Rage over an AGP bus. The only computers to have the rage were the original iMacs (a few revisions) and the Beige G3s. Hey if you look at what besson3c said he isn't wrong at all.

**This thread is already going to hell, why not make it a quicker journey?**

[ReggieX]

"Welcome back, my friends, to the thread that never ends..."

The only reason you can turn off all the special effects in win2K and XP is that MS has bolted all the effects onto an older, existing windowing engine. Turn off all the fluff, and you're left with the same 2D window manager that has existed for a looong time. Hence, XP on 6 year old video cards.

Quartz is brand-spanking new, based on no previous Mac windowing technology. That hacks like ShadowKiller and WindowShade X exist are proof that hooks exist within Quartz to turn SOME of the effects off. I don't know, I'm not a programmer of window managers that's for sure.

In the end, I'm still far more inclined to believe Andrew Welch, a guy who's been programming Macs close to the metal since the early 90's, than one KellyHogan. Hogan, at this point, you're not even comparing apples and oranges, more like bunny rabbits and toasters.

Can we please return to the topic at hand? That is, if you haven't forgotten the meaningless forays into MS research demos, QE on PCI = no, and for very good reasons.

[theolein]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>

You are not quite getting it are you? When Apple or Microsoft refer to anti-aliasing in their new graphic compositing systems they are referring to text anti-aliasing. They are not talking about anti-aliasing 3D scenes like in computer games. The Rage 128 might not be able to handle that but it can certainly display anti-aliased text and is already doing so on both OSX and XP.

I have also been saying for many pages now that Microsoft gives the users options to turn off any effects that their hardware has problems with. Why are you not taking note of this even though I have repeated it many times? Are you aware that even now in 2002 you can install XP on a machine with a 6 year old graphics card and it runs fine if you adjust the effects? You can turn of solid window dragging and live window resizing. You can turn off any shadows, turn off anti-aliased text, lower the color depth of the icons and switch to a basic theme. The day Apple gives users such options is the day I concede that they do not want to tempt people to upgrade by slowing their systems down.</STRONG>

Sahib, Efendi Hogan! Next time round we will all sit around you gathered in a circle and "take notes" while listening to your wonderous words of wisdom.

The next time you switch on your Imac, take a look at the top rounded corners of any window. They're smooth. Notice that? It's called anti-aliasing. Yet it is not text! What a paradox! What confusion! Mr Dallarosa is completely at a loss for words (Who is Mr Dallarosa? Why, it's our old friend kellyHogan, or is it not?)

I will agree with you on one thing, though (amazingly!) and that is that it would have been a lot more pleasant for owners of older Macs to be able to turn off all the effects. But I can understand Apple not wanting to do this: they make more money from hardware than software and want us poor suckers to buy the new goodies.

[theolein]

Originally posted by macaddled:
<STRONG>As we now stare deeply into the dying embers, poking here and there for signs of life ... let us all look to each other and nod knowingly.

That, my friends, was a damn good flame war. This is what the Internet is all about. &lt;wipes away lone tear&gt;</STRONG>

[Xeo]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>I just like to show who the fanatics are and who the sensible ones are.</STRONG>

Read:
Fanatics = Anyone that disagrees with me.
Sensible ones = Anyone that agrees with me.

This thread is over. If this discussion arises in another thread, there will be NO flaming of any kind. If it happens, that thread will be closed too. That is the sole reason this thread is being closed. There has been far too much flaming going on.

I apologize for not looking at this thread sooner. It got way too far out of control. I thought with so many pages of information, it must have been good discussion, but not knowing anything about QE I decided not to participate. Bad choice on my part.

[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: Xeo ]