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Heroes Season Premier (Page 12)
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The only thing I can think of is that the Haitian was still blocking Arthur's powers and didn't have enough juice left to block Sylar.
It shows how poor the writing and plot lines are when we have to make excuses and fill in holes that they should have taken care of or at least explained better.
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Originally Posted by Big Mac
That's what was implied, but if the Haitian's power broke then Arthur would get his powers back and wouldn't have any issue with a bullet going toward the front of the head, right?
That's what I have a problem with. Shouldn't Arthur gain his powers back the moment the Haitian guy no longer was able to contain him.
Unless Sylar somehow got the Haitian's power through empathy which he learned how to do two episodes back. But, that would mean Sylar is now the most powerful guy. I don't think Sylar is able to acquire power through empathy anymore after killing Elle.
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Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
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If Sylar got Elle's power through empathy, why did he brain her? The eclipse episodes ended up as a non event because the powers came back afterwards, but I liked this episode.
Another power check question - Does Sylar have super strength like the Marine they just gave the injection to, or is he there now thinking "Oh yeah, I'll have some of that "
Another thing I would like to have seen a few episodes back in the Sylar backstory when he was gaining powers, was where he got the trademark 'braining pointy finger' power from. I thought the emo goth kid was going to be that, but it was the hand as a gun thing instead.
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Originally Posted by ajprice
If Sylar got Elle's power through empathy, why did he brain her? The eclipse episodes ended up as a non event because the powers came back afterwards, but I liked this episode.
Another power check question - Does Sylar have super strength like the Marine they just gave the injection to, or is he there now thinking "Oh yeah, I'll have some of that "
Another thing I would like to have seen a few episodes back in the Sylar backstory when he was gaining powers, was where he got the trademark 'braining pointy finger' power from. I thought the emo goth kid was going to be that, but it was the hand as a gun thing instead.
I think he lost his "empathy", so he lost any powers gain from "empathy". Thus he had to acquire powers the old way. I don't know why Sylar didn't take out the Haitian guy when he had the chance.
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Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
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Originally Posted by Cold Warrior
The only thing I can think of is that the Haitian was still blocking Arthur's powers and didn't have enough juice left to block Sylar.
Or maybe the Haitian has an ulterior motive for giving Sylar a pass
It shows how poor the writing and plot lines are when we have to make excuses and fill in holes that they should have taken care of or at least explained better.
I've noticed that everyone seems to like Season 1 but nothing since then. In Season 1 we were making excuses and filling in the holes too, but back then everyone just assumed that the holes were left intentionally, as clues. Nowadays, everyone just assumes that we are supposed to know how everything works, and gaps not explicitly explained aren't clues anymore, now they're sloppy writing. It's said about all shows in all genres: if all the characters made the right decisions all the time, if the audience understands everything from the word go, if there is no mystery and no surprises, then what is the point of watching?
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The thing is, we (geeks) usually demand logical continuity in our entertainment. We can accept absurd things in a given universe as long as the universe remains logically consistent in its continuity. When things don't work the way they're supposed to given the rules established by the show, it bothers us.
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"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
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Originally Posted by Chuckit
Isaac's drawings were visions of the future. Unless something changed the future, I don't think they would change.
I would tend to think of the sketchbook as Isaac's visions of possible futures and the finished comic books as what he focused into as the true future. So, since he never got to codify his visions into a final, focused vision (i.e. the final comic book), what we see in the sketchbook remains mere possibilities.
Anyway, that's how I would write it, in order to weaselget around Hiro apparently powerless and stuck on a flagpole.
Kind of like that entire season of Dallas being just a dream.
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Originally Posted by Big Mac
The thing is, we (geeks) usually demand logical continuity in our entertainment
...often to the point of inventing our own rules and laws about what must be going on, to bring order to our mental representation of a chaotic world (just like in real life). The "actual" rules might be different, their depiction might be intentional misdirection, they might change, or the characters themselves might also not know all of the rules. We already know that real people change their minds, act irrationally, and hide their true intentions. I see this show is getting a lot of flack just for its characters doing the same thing. If anything, I am inclined to fault the show for doing the opposite, when characters show their emotions or opinions by grandly declaring them outright instead of oh I don't know... acting. That's the part that's unrealistic. I don't let that bother me because that's how comic books are so that's what they're trying to do.
Anyway, it's natural to theorize a code of rules that make sense of the show, but when they don't match, it's silly to not have the flexibility to adapt your code to the show, instead of whining about the show not adapting itself to your code.
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Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton
Or maybe the Haitian has an ulterior motive for giving Sylar a pass
I've noticed that everyone seems to like Season 1 but nothing since then. In Season 1 we were making excuses and filling in the holes too, but back then everyone just assumed that the holes were left intentionally, as clues. Nowadays, everyone just assumes that we are supposed to know how everything works, and gaps not explicitly explained aren't clues anymore, now they're sloppy writing. It's said about all shows in all genres: if all the characters made the right decisions all the time, if the audience understands everything from the word go, if there is no mystery and no surprises, then what is the point of watching?
If there are no rules and no internal logic and nothing that happens now has any real effect on what happens later, what's the point of watching a dramatic series?
JK Rowling once said that the most important thing she did with Harry Potter was sit down and come up with the rules for how the universe operates. This allowed her to have a world with magic and all kinds of fantastic stuff, but there weren't ass-pulls every other page taking people out of the story. It allows people to connect. And you know what? She still managed to surprise a few people.
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Originally Posted by Chuckit
If there are no rules and no internal logic and nothing that happens now has any real effect on what happens later, what's the point of watching a dramatic series?
But we have people complaining that what happened in a certain episode won't have any effect on what happens later, before they have any idea what will happen later. Who are you to say that it won't come back and have significance next week or in the season finale or in later seasons? For example, we don't even know what "the catalyst" is, but people are already whining because "it's gone" and "it didn't matter." You really don't think they'll bring it back into the story somehow? Just be patient. Maybe it didn't matter, and maybe it did, chill out and wait for them to tell their tale.
I'm not saying that lack of continuity isn't bad (it is), I'm saying that people are being absurd in their expectations of how often that continuity should be shoved down the audience's throats. People seem to think that all questions should be answered right now today in the same episode they're raised. That almost never happens, because doing so is bad storytelling.
Edit: I'm not saying that Heroes is great storytelling (or even "good"), but the ways it's lacking are pretty much the polar opposite of the things a lot of the complaints are about. The ways it's lacking are the same ways from season 1: the acting sucks, the plot drags, and too many of the characters are just plain boring.
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Last edited by Uncle Skeleton; Dec 11, 2008 at 03:25 PM.
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For people who know/write fiction, it is common knowledge that fantastical universes are required to have stricter rules than stories set in our own universe. The reader/watcher will buy into the universe you create as long as it's logically consistent.
The Star Wars Universe and Middle Earth are two such examples. If even the slightest bit is inconsistent, the reader/watcher will lose interest in that universe.
Fantastical universes does NOT mean anything goes. Far from it!
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Originally Posted by Thorzdad
I would tend to think of the sketchbook as Isaac's visions of possible futures and the finished comic books as what he focused into as the true future. So, since he never got to codify his visions into a final, focused vision (i.e. the final comic book), what we see in the sketchbook remains mere possibilities.
But that's not how we've seen his power work. He gets into his "zone" and involuntarily paints/draws the future as it will happen. We've never seen someone paint multiple versions of the future as far as I can recall.
I just don't like time travel and the way it's impossible to do it right. The Austin Powers movies were the only ones that handled it correctly, and that was because they admitted it couldn't work at all.
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Originally Posted by Cold Warrior
Peter went to find the Haitian and it became a sort of journey for him. He found his inner hero without powers, but then back in the U.S. he wimped out.
How did he wimp out? He fired the gun, right?
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He hesitated too long. Indecision and being irresolute are Peter's trademarks unfortunately. I thought he'd move beyond that after his training with the invisible man in season one.
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Originally Posted by Cold Warrior
He hesitated too long. Indecision and being irresolute are Peter's trademarks unfortunately. I thought he'd move beyond that after his training with the invisible man in season one.
But he pulled the trigger.
Also, what's keeping Arthur dead? We know that a body will heal itself once powers are regained, did Peter hit the perfect spot in the brain to kill him, or is the Haitian going to always be within 20 feet of Arthur's body so that he doesn't come back to life?
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Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton
But we have people complaining that what happened in a certain episode won't have any effect on what happens later, before they have any idea what will happen later.
I thought we were discussing stuff that happened earlier that's failed to properly affect what's happening now.
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton
For example, we don't even know what "the catalyst" is, but people are already whining because "it's gone" and "it didn't matter."
We do know what the catalyst is. It's the ingredient needed to stabilize artificial abilities given to people. It's the glowy thing Hiro got from his mom.
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton
I'm not saying that lack of continuity isn't bad (it is), I'm saying that people are being absurd in their expectations of how often that continuity should be shoved down the audience's throats. People seem to think that all questions should be answered right now today in the same episode they're raised. That almost never happens, because doing so is bad storytelling.
I think you're misunderstanding. The problem isn't that questions aren't being answered, it's that the show doesn't even appear to realize they are questions. For example, if Peter had been like, "WTF? I thought your power was a passive aura," that would have been acknowledging that something odd was happening with the Haitian's power. Instead they appear to have simply retconned how his ability works.
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton
Edit: I'm not saying that Heroes is great storytelling (or even "good"), but the ways it's lacking are pretty much the polar opposite of the things a lot of the complaints are about. The ways it's lacking are the same ways from season 1: the acting sucks, the plot drags, and too many of the characters are just plain boring.
I disagree. Season 1 had its problems, season 2 had the same problems but failed to deliver the awesomeness to go along with it, and season 3 has invented a whole cornucopia of new problems. Seasons 1 and 2 dragged at times, but they didn't have a problem of totally switching gears or contradicting themselves every five minutes like this season does. And this season actually has fewer annoying or boring characters than the previous ones, IMO, thanks to the killing of the Niki clan and emphasizing Sylar over Peter.
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Last edited by Chuckit; Dec 11, 2008 at 10:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
Fantastical universes does NOT mean anything goes. Far from it!
Heroes is also far from it; it's downright formulaic. They even used the same actor this week for the same plot device that he played in the 4400.
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Originally Posted by Chuckit
I thought we were discussing stuff that happened earlier that's failed to properly affect what's happening now.
I wasn't, but I'll take your lead: like what? The only "failures" I'm aware of depend on the audience taking all characters' motivations at face value, with no room for deception or torn allegiance.
We do know what the catalyst is. It's the ingredient needed to stabilize artificial abilities given to people. It's the glowy thing Hiro got from his mom.
That's what it does, not what it is. "Glowy" doesn't count
Don't you think it reminds you of that symbol that Takezo Kensei used, that then came back to be the PineHurst DNA logo and then later the "earth is splitting in half" logo? When we saw it on the sword (or wherever we first saw it, I forget), that could have been the end of that. But they tied it back in (doubly so) for whatever reason. They like to return to the same themes, and I think they'll do the same with the catalyst, if they have time before being cancelled.
I think you're misunderstanding. The problem isn't that questions aren't being answered, it's that the show doesn't even appear to realize they are questions. For example, if Peter had been like, "WTF? I thought your power was a passive aura," that would have been acknowledging that something odd was happening with the Haitian's power. Instead they appear to have simply retconned how his ability works.
But this is what I was saying, it's been like this from the start. Did the other characters pitch a fit when the Haitian had both the power-blocking power and the mind-erasing power? No, they just kind of said "oh I guess that's part of it" and went with the flow. And that's what they're doing now. It's an extension of what we already know about him. Instead of talking about it, they show it. They do that with all the characters, and have from the start. Remember when Claire woke up from her first autopsy with her bare heart sticking out? That was the same thing, something a little inconsistent with what we already knew about her power, but an extension along a similar line. Nobody in the show stood up and said "but wait that's not how it works," they just went with it.
Also, this is another thing I was saying, when one of the characters steps out of the story for exposition, like the scene you described, that's awful storytelling. Heroes is guilty of this a lot, so your scene wouldn't be out of place, but that's a bad thing, not a good thing.
I disagree. Season 1 had its problems, season 2 had the same problems but failed to deliver the awesomeness to go along with it, and season 3 has invented a whole cornucopia of new problems. Seasons 1 and 2 dragged at times, but they didn't have a problem of totally switching gears or contradicting themselves every five minutes like this season does. And this season actually has fewer annoying or boring characters than the previous ones, IMO, thanks to the killing of the Niki clan and emphasizing Sylar over Peter.
Maybe. It still has too much Nathan, Niki the 3rd, Mohinder, Elle, and the most boring character of all: The Formula. Also Claire. And Peter. I find myself skipping to the Hiro scenes, just like I did in season 1.
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Haitian guy theory: His power cancelling thing is still an aura like it seemed to be until Arthur overpowered him. But it wasn't the Haitian's power being directed at Arthur, it was Arthur directing something at the Haitian and knocking his aura out. We know that Arthur's powers are pretty much effortless to do what he wants, he doesn't need to 'do a Hiro' and look like he's squeezing one out to activate a power. Who's to say we have seen or can account for every power he has?
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Originally Posted by Laminar
But that's not how we've seen his power work. He gets into his "zone" and involuntarily paints/draws the future as it will happen. We've never seen someone paint multiple versions of the future as far as I can recall.
I just don't like time travel and the way it's impossible to do it right. The Austin Powers movies were the only ones that handled it correctly, and that was because they admitted it couldn't work at all.
The African guy who helped Parkman on his spirit quest was repainting the future as Arthur got well after killing Adam (how did Adam get his powers from feudal Japan if it was a recent eclipse that gave all the present day people their powers?), getting better and started sucking up those different powers.
[edit]
10 dumbest moves in season 3 article, what do you think?
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Originally Posted by PBG4 User
The African guy who helped Parkman on his spirit quest was repainting the future as Arthur got well after killing Adam (how did Adam get his powers from feudal Japan if it was a recent eclipse that gave all the present day people their powers?), getting better and started sucking up those different powers.
[edit]
10 dumbest moves in season 3 article, what do you think?
I was speaking primarily of drawing multiple versions of the future at the same time. In the case of the African dude, someone changed a decision based on a previous future drawing, thereby changing the future, so he painted another version. We know it's possible for a "futurist" to paint a future that doesn't happen because of actions taken after seeing the future painting, that's been the theme of all three seasons.
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No comments on the new episode yet? I liked it. Action, people dying, black president...what more could you ask for?
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I like where they are going with Nathan. I never liked him anyway. The characters seemed a little bit smarter in this one, so that was good. I enjoyed the last two episodes.
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Originally Posted by Laminar
No comments on the new episode yet? I liked it. Action, people dying, black president...what more could you ask for?
Sweet. Michael Dorn for president.
I love how Ando got powers and had to figure it out on what it was, yet Peter takes it, an in one second knows he can fly. Brilliant!
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Originally Posted by exca1ibur
Sweet. Michael Dorn for president.
I love how Ando got powers and had to figure it out on what it was, yet Peter takes it, an in one second knows he can fly. Brilliant!
He knew he could fly because he already knew that his power was absorbing other people's powers, and Nathan was standing right in front of him
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Meh. Sylar holding everyone hostage was boring and a waste of time.
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Originally Posted by Stogieman
Meh. Sylar holding everyone hostage was boring and a waste of time.
Yeah a little. Up until the very end when Peter flight-rescued Nathan, I thought Peter would fly to Primatech, confront Sylar (and therefore absorb all his powers) and duke it out like they should have done in previous seasons.
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Originally Posted by Chuckit
He knew he could fly because he already knew that his power was absorbing other people's powers, and Nathan was standing right in front of him
So taking the Serium gives you your powers back you already had? If you had no power it's random?
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If I remember correctly, towards the beginning of the season, Mohinder said that the power you get is determined by your biology. That's why he was sure the serum he made from Maya wouldn't give him Maya's power.
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Great episode. Worf as president. Peter finally getting his powers back.
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So Mohinder is barely functional and yet he has the time and presense to speak into a voice recorder. I assume he has a secretary to document his tapes.
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Good episode, I might have missed this before but Flint the flamethrower guy had a scar on his face of the S symbol. Oh and if I had fire I couldn't control coming out of my hands, I wouldn't be letting it off TOWARDS the only other person in the room!
Worf for president
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Originally Posted by ajprice
Good episode, I might have missed this before but Flint the flamethrower guy had a scar on his face of the S symbol.
I noticed that for the first time, too.
Also, I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet, but how do the cells on level 5 contain people with powers? Is the bulletproof glass also "powers-proof?" Could the puppeteer not do his thing from within the cell? The Haitian isn't always around, so that can't be the reason.
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Based on what we've seen in previous episodes, the Company seems to have figured out how to make pills and liquids that duplicate the Haitian's powers.
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I thought there was some sort of device to do that too, back in season 1. But I don't think we ever saw it, Bennett only talked about it or something.
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Originally Posted by ajprice
Oh and if I had fire I couldn't control coming out of my hands, I wouldn't be letting it off TOWARDS the only other person in the room!
That was so stupid.
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I got the impression that the room was supposed to be flammable, so she was letting the flames out where they were least likely to ignite anything — so standing in a corner and shooting into the center of the room.
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Looked like plain concrete to me.
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Originally Posted by Railroader
Looked like plain concrete to me.
Yeah, it did. That's why I said it was supposed to be flammable — it seemed like they thought she could burn down the room but the sets people didn't catch onto that.
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I liked the finale, although Sylar's Saw scenario was a little ridiculous.
You know, if they're lazy, they can just say that by taking the formula, Peter's previous powers, which had been integrated with his biology for some time, were completely restored.
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"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
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Originally Posted by Big Mac
You know, if they're lazy, they can just say that by taking the formula, Peter's previous powers, which had been integrated with his biology for some time, were completely restored.
They could, but since the only power we've seen him use is the only one he already would have reabsorbed, it seems like he's going to have to get them back the old-fashioned way. Not that it's very difficult — all he has to do is stand in the same room as the rest of the cast and he's back to being the most powerful man in the world in record time.
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Chuck
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altho no one alive can stop time or draw the future anymore (thankfully). so he won't be getting those back.
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Originally Posted by Demonhood
altho no one alive can stop time or draw the future anymore (thankfully). so he won't be getting those back.
Ando's supercharging power with Daphne can travel through time, and Sylar can paint the future because he brained Isaac (I'm pretty sure he still has that power). With Peter it depends if he has all his powers back now or just Nathan's because he absorbed it, if he has it all back, he has time control. I'm sure they'll find a way to restore Hiro's time control power though. African spirit walker guy might also be alive (Parkman saw him at the end, vision or real?)
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It'll be much easier if you just comply.
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Originally Posted by ajprice
Ando's supercharging power with Daphne can travel through time, and Sylar can paint the future because he brained Isaac (I'm pretty sure he still has that power). With Peter it depends if he has all his powers back now or just Nathan's because he absorbed it, if he has it all back, he has time control. I'm sure they'll find a way to restore Hiro's time control power though. African spirit walker guy might also be alive (Parkman saw him at the end, vision or real?)
Yes, but Sylar seems to be dead for good this time. It would be difficult explaining how he escaped being neutralized by Claire's attack and then going up in flames with the Primatech building.
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"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
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Originally Posted by Big Mac
Yes, but Sylar seems to be dead for good this time. It would be difficult explaining how he escaped being neutralized by Claire's attack and then going up in flames with the Primatech building.
At this point I'd put Sylar as 'status unknown' rather than 'dead'. This is Heroes we're talking about here, and he did survive Hiro's sword attack at the end of S1, and that was before he got healing power).
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Originally Posted by Big Mac
Yes, but Sylar seems to be dead for good this time. It would be difficult explaining how he escaped being neutralized by Claire's attack and then going up in flames with the Primatech building.
I'll bet you $10 Angela or somebody yanks out the glass just to be nice. As we saw when Claire died and got autopsied in season 1, they can recover from some pretty gnarly injuries once their brain is whole again.
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Chuck
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You think Noah would be stupid enough not to finally deliver a killing blow this time? If so, that would be pretty pathetically written. I think he's really gone this time, so that he can play an unencumbered pseudo-Spock.
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"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
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Bennett was focused on getting out of the building before it exploded and I don't think he even had a gun at that point. No time for a coup de grace.
Also, Sylar mostly finished Spocking it up several months ago, as I recall.
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Chuck
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Originally Posted by Big Mac
If so, that would be pretty pathetically written.
That wouldn't be anything new.
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