[subego]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I disagree. I think the attitude is -- I have what I need to defend myself and my stuff and I will take care of me, not depend on you.

Exactly. "Go sit on my cock, I've got ****ing GOD on my side."

And God is pretty clearly on our side.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by subego 

Exactly. "Go sit on my cock, I've got ****ing GOD on my side."

And God is pretty clearly on our side.

If you can extrapolate the above from what I've said -- you don't need my help in this "exchange". Thanks though.

[subego]

You're "welcome".

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

ebuddy,

I'm not sure if you've read my thread in the lounge about my recent purchase, but FWIW when I went to make my purchase, one of my closest girlfriends (not that type of girlfriend) came with me and purchased a handgun to go with the house she just bought. She lives alone in this house and took a very high interest in being able to defend herself and her home. She was initially shy about walking into the store and asking for advice as the shop is very much a hunter's shop (you wouldn't expect see many women go in there). The shop owner (same guy who helped me through the process) was more than helpful and was glad to see two youngn's (i'm 26, she's 22) taking an interest. While we were there, I noticed that roughly 40% of the people coming in were women looking to buy a home-defense handgun before it became illegal.

It's quite probable that come summertime neither of our purchases would be legal under Maryland law, as O'malley's legislation would have banned both sales outright.

I agree and many like you are moving in droves to beat future bans. Good point about women buying guns for home-defense also as this seems to be a significantly increasing phenomena. I love the fact that at 26, you're very much in touch with your legislative surroundings and pay such close attention to politics in general. You all are the last bastion of hope around here.

My gripe is the cover of satire being used to immediately marginalize contentious behaviors. Neither your scenario nor the fact that women are buying more guns fits into the Gods and Cocks narrative supposed by the "humorist".

[Uncle Skeleton]

If we're going to make this about genders, the one argument in favor of gun control that I can most sympathize with is that a certain not-insignificant amount of (male) gun owners will ultimately use their gun to kill their (female) partners. For the most part, taking away the tools of crime but not the motive is a poor strategy, but when those crimes are purely crimes of passion like this, it does have a certain ring of truth to it.

[The Final Dakar]

Using the discussion breaking down gun owners into smaller groups as jumping off point for a tangent, I thought this was interesting:

Gun deaths shaped by race in America

A white person is five times as likely to commit suicide with a gun as to be shot with a gun; for each African American who uses a gun to commit suicide, five are killed by other people with guns.

Scholars say it is no coincidence that the places in the United States with high suicide rates also have high gun ownership rates. By contrast, states with the lowest gun ownership rates tend to have the lowest suicide rates.

I know the last time I brought suicide up Uncle Skeleton seemed to imply that it was the person's decision, but I'm curious if anyone else has any thoughts to share.

[subego]

My knee-jerk response is it's an indication of how good of a killing instrument it is. If you decide to go out that way, you succeed.

Likewise, there's a certain impetus not to **** it up. If you were depressed before, you'll be more depressed missing half your face.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Using the discussion breaking down gun owners into smaller groups as jumping off point for a tangent, I thought this was interesting:

Gun deaths shaped by race in America






I know the last time I brought suicide up Uncle Skeleton seemed to imply that it was the person's decision, but I'm curious if anyone else has any thoughts to share.

I kinda agree with uncky on this one.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

I kinda agree with uncky on this one.

Do you think these people choosing suicide are of clear and sound mind?

Originally Posted by subego 

My knee-jerk response is it's an indication of how good of a killing instrument it is. If you decide to go out that way, you succeed

I agree. Are there more 'painless' methods out there? (I imagine speed and suffering are a factor as well)

[subego]

Overdose, but yeah, that takes awhile.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Overdose, but yeah, that takes awhile.

Oh yeaaaaaaaah. I'd definitely want to OD on sleeping pills if I had a choice.

Much harder to get your hands on than a gun, though.

[BLAZE_MkIV]

The problem with sleeping pills (and most of the other methods) is getting the dosage right.

[The Final Dakar]

Well, if you're planning a suicide, might as well do some research.

[subego]

Dose: all.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Do you think these people choosing suicide are of clear and sound mind?

I cannot speak for another's choices to end their own lives. Some truly wish to end their lives, others suffer from mental conditions. Regardless, people that use guns know they're ending it all. Those that survive, IMO, are generally just crying out for help in a way that gets them the attention that they need. Nothing says "I need help" like an attempted suicide. Thankfully, most times they get it. Of course there are exceptions to that...

[subego]

Well, as I implied above, "cry for help" suicides usually don't involve guns.

I'd figure hanging, slitting your wrists in the tub, and (actually) jumping too.

Or, if they do, that's a lot of people screwing up their cry for help.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Using the discussion breaking down gun owners into smaller groups as jumping off point for a tangent, I thought this was interesting:

Gun deaths shaped by race in America

So what's your commentary on this? Ann Coulter was right?

I know the last time I brought suicide up Uncle Skeleton seemed to imply that it was the person's decision, but I'm curious if anyone else has any thoughts to share.

I have no memory of this. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Much harder to get your hands on than a gun, though.

Is this sarcasm?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

I cannot speak for another's choices to end their own lives. Some truly wish to end their lives, others suffer from mental conditions. Regardless, people that use guns know they're ending it all.

What does this mean? "people that use guns know they're ending it all" ?

Originally Posted by subego 

Well, as I implied above, "cry for help" suicides usually don't involve guns.

Is there some meaningful difference between "cry for help" suicides and effective suicides? Could you explain it to me?

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

So what's your commentary on this? Ann Coulter was right?

You'll have to point me in the direction of what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by subego 

Is this sarcasm?

No.

[subego]

Re: sarcasm.

It's way easier to get a gun than good prescription meds. Your right to get a gun is constitutionally protected.


Re: cry for help.

I'm not an expert, but "cry for help" suicides usually take awhile, are minimally painful, and involve letting someone know you're doing it.

Pills are often used in the "cry for help" model. You overdose, you tell someone, paramedics arrive and start pumping your stomach before it's too late.

Blowing your brains out doesn't work for this.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Re: sarcasm.

It's way easier to get a gun than good prescription meds. Your right to get a gun is constitutionally protected.

Reread my post. That's what i said.

Originally Posted by subego 

Re: cry for help.

I'm not an expert, but "cry for help" suicides usually take awhile, are minimally painful, and involve letting someone know you're doing it.

Pills are often used in the "cry for help" model. You overdose, you tell someone, paramedics arrive and start pumping your stomach before it's too late.

Blowing your brains out doesn't work for this.

You're illustrating the outcome, which is obvious. I'm asking about why we should care about the choice of method with regards to people committing suicide.

[subego]

Ah... I missed the "than".

You've lost me on "cry for help". I thought you wanted an explanation of what it was.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

You've lost me on "cry for help". I thought you wanted an explanation of what it was.

Let's try to reset then. Why did you bring up cries for help?

[subego]

We're discussing suicides and their success rate.

Suicide by gun has a high success rate, and is therefore not the implement of choice in a cry for help suicide, since the point of a CFH isn't actually committing suicide.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

We're discussing suicides and their success rate.

Suicide by gun has a high success rate, and is therefore not the implement of choice in a cry for help suicide, since the point of a CFH isn't actually committing suicide.

Ok, that was fairly self-explanatory. Why do we care about cry for help suicides?

[subego]

Because we're not heartless bastards?

Oh, shit! One-liner.


Honestly, no idea.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Because we're not heartless bastards?

Oh, shit! One-liner.


Honestly, no idea.

Well, this was maddening.

[subego]

I'd say we've barely scratched the surface of "maddening".

[The Final Dakar]

No really, its made me nuts. You bring up this subset of suicides and go nowhere with it.

[subego]

Snow-i brought it up. I made a comment. What's the problem?

[subego]

Honestly, we seem to enjoy giving each other a hard time, so I'll do that, but I don't try and have conversations with you which go nowhere. I can't say I've never done it, but I don't do it often, and I don't do it for entertainment.

I think when that happens it's more likely were on different wavelengths. Really, I'm not trying to mess with you beyond the obvious "good fun" part.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Snow-i brought it up. I made a comment. What's the problem?

Well, as I implied above, "cry for help" suicides usually don't involve guns.

I'm trying to understand why we're differentiating between suicides. Are you guys concluding that from the stats only 4% of suicides are "cries for help". If so, does that really have any bearing on the overall gun/suicide discussion?

[subego]

I'm lost here. I'm honestly not trying to be a bee in your bonnet.

The only thing I'm surmising from the statistics is what I said. People who use guns succeed, and as a corollary to this people who aren't as interested in succeeding pick another method.

[The Final Dakar]

I'll tell you what. My sleeps been off the past two days, so on the off chance I'm the retard here, I'm going to bow out for at least the next few hours, if not day.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

What does this mean? "people that use guns know they're ending it all" ?

You know your done with a shotgun to the head. When you take a bottle of pills then tell your family members who get you help, you're crying out for help.

Is there some meaningful difference between "cry for help" suicides and effective suicides? Could you explain it to me?

The difference is in the numbers you've cited for successful vs failed suicides. A significant portion of those who use other methods which have a drastically lower effectiveness rate perhaps on some level did not wish to die, but instead cry for help and let others know they are having serious suicidal thoughts. I'm not sure you can say that other methods are 96% ineffective with a straight face and believe that 96 out of 100 people who seriously would like to end their lives are that incompetent.

[BLAZE_MkIV]

Aren't people who commit suicide not in their right mind and therefore medically incompetent.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

So what's your commentary on this? Ann Coulter was right?

You'll have to point me in the direction of what you're talking about.

Ann Coulter: Gun Crime Is 'Demographic Problem'
also:
http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...6/#post4212232

Edit: it's not fair of me to demand an opinion while withholding mine: I think there's a kernel of truth in her stack of lies and divisiveness. Just like Ca$h's thread about condemning the South for being fat (which turned out to be a proxy for condemning the African American population for being fat, who happen to be concentrated in the South), it is undoubtedly true that gun violence is one problem in one racial population, and an entirely different problem in the next racial population. This doesn't suggest any obvious solution to the problem, and it certainly doesn't tell us that there is no problem, but IMO it does strongly imply to us that the solution, whatever it is, will not be very successful if it doesn't account for the reason this is so.

[pooka]

Originally Posted by subego 

My knee-jerk response is it's an indication of how good of a killing instrument it is. If you decide to go out that way, you succeed.

I dunno. I'm pretty shocked at how much more successful I am at driving screws into a deck with a hammer drill versus my previous method of using a shoe.

[subego]

Wut?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by subego 

Wut?

Everything okay with you, subego? I mean... you don't have to answer. Just know we're worried about you. Picking on pooka, man.

[subego]

Wut?

[Uncle Skeleton]

I didn't get pooka's comment either

[ebuddy]

pooka was apparently mocking subego's mastery of the obvious.

[subego]

I'm noticing a trend of:

Ask a question.
I answer.
Response is "you're an idiot/retard/whatever for answering".

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

I'm not sure you can say that other methods are 96% ineffective with a straight face and believe that 96 out of 100 people who seriously would like to end their lives are that incompetent.

There it is. I asked "Do you think these people choosing suicide are of clear and sound mind?" The implication here seems to be if you know what you will do will kill you, you're somehow sane enough.

Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV 

Aren't people who commit suicide not in their right mind and therefore medically incompetent.

Depends on the circumstances but since depression plays a big part, they tend to not be of rational mind when making the decision

Originally Posted by subego 

I'm noticing a trend of:

Ask a question.
I answer.
Response is "you're an idiot/retard/whatever for answering".

I'm not trying to be a dick. But I feel like you're spitting out facts without giving the rationale or logic behind them.

Ex:

Originally Posted by subego 

The only thing I'm surmising from the statistics is what I said. People who use guns succeed, and as a corollary to this people who aren't as interested in succeeding pick another method.

I think the clearer question I should have been asking is, why should method matter in regards to how we perceive people who commit suicide?

[subego]

Well, don't jump my shit for not asking that question.

You threw out a statistic. I said my knee-jerk response is... You ask for my rationale, I give it, and then get dog-piled for being "too obvious".

[pooka]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I didn't get pooka's comment either

Sorry. I've been drinking a LOT lately. I rarely post these days and even more rarely make any sort of sense.

I think I was sort of saying "Yeah, no ****ing shit, 9 out of 10 dentists agree, you'll get better results in your suicide efforts by blowing your brains out versus self medicating or cutting your wrists. I mean, do you seriously have any idea how hard it is to bleed yourself out? You'll freak and call 911. Pinky swear."

Duh, guns are effective at killing. Physics, thermo dynamics, physiology and all that. AOL chatrooms are also more efficient at luring 12 year olds across state lines. Some people suck and this is why we can't have nice things.

[pooka]

Originally Posted by subego 

Well, don't jump my shit for not asking that question.

You threw out a statistic. I said my knee-jerk response is... You ask for my rationale, I give it, and then get dog-piled for being "too obvious".

I'm not packing your fudge over your response. If anything, I may be agreeing with you. A little.

Sort of like when a prostitute tells you that she loves you versus when they tell you they REALLY love you. How they go about saying it means a lot. You know?

[subego]

Your check is in the mail.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

There it is. I asked "Do you think these people choosing suicide are of clear and sound mind?" The implication here seems to be if you know what you will do will kill you, you're somehow sane enough.

It depends on each individual. Are they of clear and sane mind? How do you define that? In many cases no, in some cases, yes.

Depends on the circumstances but since depression plays a big part, they tend to not be of rational mind when making the decision.

Yes, which is why we should focus on making help available to them. We cannot protect people from themselves via regulation and it is a fool's errand to try. The best we can do is make help readily available so that loved ones, family members, and those with depression can easily seek help in a constructive way. Advocating that medical professionals must report depressed people to the point where they are stripped of certain rights and classified as mentally defective else face liability is a step in the wrong direction. You are making it harder and less beneficial to seeking help.

IMO, guns don't play into this debate at all, unless you'd like to regulate every household danger that could potentially harm a mentally defective individual. IMO, It's another classic case of attempting to regulate the symptoms or methods without addressing the cause as a feel good piece of legislation. I'm not accusing you of this, but many in my age group hold these views simply because they are fashionable. It saddens me that when prodded even a little bit they cannot answer why their arguments are good for fellow man. I always state my view and in those cases, encourage them to explore the issues further for themselves before spitting out talking points.