[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Btw how is nickel processing any more environmentally unfriendly than any other heavy metal such as iron/steel, or any metal for that matter considering there are other plants around the world just as polluting as this one but doing something entirely different. Seems more like a scrubber problem with this particular factory more than anything else. Clean air costs money and canada, a 3rd world country has to compete with russia in this market.

It probably has to do with the process of separating nickel from the ore. It's different for all metals, and involves different chemicals. Smelting iron ore, for example puts out arsenic. Smelting nickel ore apparently puts out sulphur dioxide.

If hybrids weren't so new they wouln't need to be shipped all over the world in the manufacturing process.

in other words its not the prius's fault

That's pretty much irrelevant, as the simple fact is they are shipped all over the world. Fault is meaningless.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

80 mph is illegal everywhere I've been.

Yes, but most people drive 10-15 over on the highway.

25% for the city or highway? Thats a big thing to leave out considering the prius is manly a city car. Does a city dweller always get 45mpg or perhaps 50 considering your average city dweller can't find the traffic conditions to go 80?

I'm sure the average 'city dweller' uses the interstates to go to work, and get from one part of the city to another.

Btw how is nickel processing any more environmentally unfriendly than any other heavy metal such as iron/steel, or any metal for that matter considering there are other plants around the world just as polluting as this one but doing something entirely different. Seems more like a scrubber problem with this particular factory more than anything else. Clean air costs money and canada, a 3rd world country has to compete with russia in this market.

If hybrids weren't so new they wouln't need to be shipped all over the world in the manufacturing process.

in other words its not the prius's fault

Nickel pollution information: NPI: Nickel and compounds fact sheet

Iron and steel are not nearly as toxic as nickel. And your point about hybrids being new doesn't really hold water. Who gives a rats ass if they're new or not. The point being is they still create a lot of pollution to make, they're very complex requiring more parts, more manufacturing, and more maintenence, the batteries wear out fairly often, requiring even more production, and they are NOT as earth friendly as driving an older econobox that's already been produced, is simple to maintain, and will last longer with fewer maintenence items.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Frugle 

anybody watch futurecar on discovery?

They invented a car that runs on air... it gets its energy from an air pump... they said they hard part wasn't getting the car to run on air, it was finding the power to run the pump.. but they got it all worked out and working... they said you only have to have an external power source once to start it...and then it is self powered until it dies... pretty freaking cool if you ask me.

In any manufacturing factory, the most expensive component is air pressure. More then electricity and gas.

And you are suggesting that they have created a perpetual motion machine/engine.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by malvolio 

You can't blame that on the Prius. The Sudbury area has looked like that since at least 1962, as I know from driving through it on the way to other places.

You must not have read the whole thread and saw this post by me:

Originally Posted by Railroader

Your right, my mistake. I even knew that when I typed the post and still made the mistake. The article was certainly written with a scandalous slant towards Toyota, although Toyota is a tiny component of the business that factory has a part in. It's more about nickel and mining it in general, in addition to nickel being a component in most batteries.

Next time read the whole thread before you use the

[BLAZE_MkIV]

I mean. Come on. Yes, I'm generalizing, but the point is an internal combustion engine, PROPERLY MAINTAINED, is more earth friendly than just shifting the power requirements to the electricity grid, especially when most of our electricity comes from COAL.

Actually this is the issue. A powerplant can be tuned to very high efficiencies were the weight issues of a car prevent the same measures.

gas turbine powerplant 7-80%
The Daily Princetonian - U. power plant wins award for efficiency
internal combustion car 15%
Stanford School of Engineering - Ask The Expert

Of cource you have to deal with the battery only returning 70% of the charge (rough worst case).
I'm not sure what trasmition losses are like but I can guaranty the power comanies keep it way above 50%.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

I'm sure the average 'city dweller' uses the interstates to go to work, and get from one part of the city to another.



Nickel pollution information: NPI: Nickel and compounds fact sheet

Iron and steel are not nearly as toxic as nickel. they are NOT as earth friendly as driving an older econobox that's already been produced, is simple to maintain, and will last longer with fewer maintenence items.

No need to cite a link for me I already looked at about 12 'fact' sheets before posting, about nickle, iron, steel, copper, gold, zinc and found very little consitancy between different plants of the world, suggesting there is much diversity in the processes.

Nobodys arguing about the older cars, but no body cares about them. This is really about people who want excuses for big SUVs and found a way to bash the only little car they could. Im glad the Hybrids exist, they are a way to give people their huge cars that they want while attempting to be more efficient.

[itistoday]

I don't know if this has been posted already, but this seems to be rubbish. From a comment in that article:

Originally Posted by Chris Johnson

Much, if not all, of the damage shown in your photo would have happened prior to 1972. In 1994 upgrades were completed that remove roughly 90% of the sulphur dioxide. While the ongoing polution at that plant is shameful, I think it shouldn't link specifically the Prius with that devistation. The NiCads we used in our toys as kids are probably more to blame for those black rocks.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

However, here's the HUGE problem with that article:
"The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.
The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. "
Chevy is being WAAAYYYYWAYAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too optimistic about the longevity of their H2, and Toyota is being fairly humble about the longevity of the prius. That simple difference throws all their research and bullshit right out the window.

Not true.... GM trucks go over 300,000 miles all the time. There is no reason to think the average H2 won't at all. And yes the lifespan of a Prius is only 100,000 miles. Typical Toyotas go much further of course but again the culprit is the battery... they only last that long and then will cost WAY more to replace than the old car is worth rendering the lifespan 'over'. Don't toss around the word bullshit until you've looked into things a little.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

And what does this "if a Hummer is a Chevy, it might as well be a Saab also" mean? Hummer, Chevrolet, Saab, as well as a bunch of other nameplates, are all (in one way or another) owned by GM. Ca$h was simply associating Hummer with Chevrolet because he associates Chevrolet with everything General Motors. In actuality, it is a company owned by General Motors North American Operations[GMNAO]. Saab is not owned by GMNAO, but owned by General Motors Corporation, which owns GMNAO. It's complicated and I probably got all of that wrong, but that is how I understood it when it was explained to me during a State of the Business address I attended while working for General Motors Powertrain Group which is owned by GMNAO.

Actually GM just has a contract with Hummer to use the name and sell the cars.... they don't even own them. Although the H2 is basically just a Chevy Suburban with a shorter taller boxier body on it so Cash's kinda more right than you are! :-]

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

No need to cite a link for me I already looked at about 12 'fact' sheets before posting, about nickle, iron, steel, copper, gold, zinc and found very little consitancy between different plants of the world, suggesting there is much diversity in the processes.

Nobodys arguing about the older cars, but no body cares about them. This is really about people who want excuses for big SUVs and found a way to bash the only little car they could. Im glad the Hybrids exist, they are a way to give people their huge cars that they want while attempting to be more efficient.

Nobody is one word. And sorry, hybrids suck. Modern diesels= better mpg, less emissions, less complexity, and less cost.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Not true.... GM trucks go over 300,000 miles all the time. There is no reason to think the average H2 won't at all. And yes the lifespan of a Prius is only 100,000 miles. Typical Toyotas go much further of course but again the culprit is the battery... they only last that long and then will cost WAY more to replace than the old car is worth rendering the lifespan 'over'. Don't toss around the word bullshit until you've looked into things a little.

... uh, okay... let's start a poll. Which vehicle will last longer? Gm anything vs toyota anything. I promise you the results will heavily sway towards Toyota. Why? Lots of reasons, probably most noticeably resale value, but the point is Toyotas will last much longer than 100,000 miles. Sure, the batteries might need replacing, but the body, interior, engine, transmission, suspension, and all that will still probably be pretty much solid. That's like saying Gm trucks don't last 300k because they need wheel bearings, brakes, maybe one or two transmissions, a new exhaust, etc. All cars need maintenence. I could buy a new car and junk it when the tires wore out, but that'd be retarded. It'd be equally retarded to junk a Prius just because the batteries wore out. This is NOT a f*cking tesla roadster with 6,000+ lithium ion cells that need to be replaced. Also, when the batteries die, YOU CAN STILL USE THE CAR, it just won't really be a hybrid. So if anybody needs to know what the hell they're talking about, that'd be you, palooka.

Actually GM just has a contract with Hummer to use the name and sell the cars.... they don't even own them. Although the H2 is basically just a Chevy Suburban with a shorter taller boxier body on it so Cash's kinda more right than you are! :-]

Considering they don't even make the REAL hummer anymore, you might as well consider the entire company nothing more than rebadged chevies, since that's all they are now.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

I'm waiting for it to explode onto the scene.

I just spit approximately 1/8 of a california roll onto my keyboard. Damn you, Dakar Squared. Damn you.

greg

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

I'm going to print this article out and send it to Stephen Harper. Lets see what, if anything, he has to say.

However, the factory is not a battery factory. It's a nickel smelting facility that produces nickel for many industrial applications besides the Prius. That of course doesn't make this less of a scandal.

I'm not sure if this is deadpan humour or not, but the Sudbury pollution has been a popular public issue for decades and decades. The Superstack that just simply "diluted" the pollution over a wider range has also been an amusing laughingstock for many, many years.

greg

[Northeastern292]

Conclusion: We should all live in densely packed cities and ride bikes, or as a friend of my dad's has to say "we should go back to the horse and buggy."

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Not true.... GM trucks go over 300,000 miles all the time. There is no reason to think the average H2 won't at all. And yes the lifespan of a Prius is only 100,000 miles. Typical Toyotas go much further of course but again the culprit is the battery... they only last that long and then will cost WAY more to replace than the old car is worth rendering the lifespan 'over'. Don't toss around the word bullshit until you've looked into things a little.

]

The jury is still out on the 100,000 mile battery life, although, as one of the article quoted below indicates, you don't necessarily replace the whole battery. Toyota and Honda also give a good warranty on the battery. It's not a factual statement to say that they only last 100,000 miles; some have gone longer.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-10845_7-6212587-1.html

There are also a lot of myths about the battery packs on hybrids requiring costly replacement. Although it is true that batteries eventually lose their ability to hold a charge, this problem hasn't been seen in hybrid cars yet. Toyota has tested its hybrid system at more than 100,000 miles and found no problems with the battery pack. While the battery packs may eventually go bad, that may be long after the useful life of the car

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005...we_be_wo_1.php

We frequently hear it from hybrid-skeptics: "Ah, yes, nice car, fuel savings, etc, but wait until you have to pay to replace the batteries in a few years! Aren't these batteries polluting more than burning extra gas?" We always suspected that was BS and now and then an article seems to confirm it, but today it's HybridBlog's turn to tackle the subject with this post. They gathered from a few articles and by talking with carmakers that all the current big hybrid makers (Toyota, Honda, Ford) believe that their battery packs will last for the life of the vehicle.

"Toyota's own tests have run batteries for the equivalent of 150,000 miles with no discernible degradation, and the company expects them to last the useful life of the car." From this article. It's from a LATimes article that seems to have moved, and I can't find it in their archives.

"Honda Says Battery Pack in Hybrid Is Designed for Life of the Car."

And the same from Ford, Toyota and Honda when HybridBlog checked directly with them, with the caveat that "they are sure someone will find a way to push a vehicle far enough that the battery may not last, but the same holds true for the engines, transmissions, and other components in any car or truck."

So yeah, nothing lasts forever, but "life of the car" is good enough for me.

http://cars.about.com/cs/familysedan...id_explain.htm

Some critics have questioned whether hybrids will be durable over the long run. Perhaps they should ask Vancouver BC's Andrew Grant, the world's first Toyota Prius taxi cab driver. After three years of daily use his Prius had logged over 180,000 miles with only a handful of minor problems. Grant has now purchased a new-generation Prius and more of these remarkable vehicles are being used by cab owners willing to take a chance on the technology.

Those same critics have insisted that if you replace the batteries after the warranty expires, it will most likely cost several thousand dollars. Toyota claims prices will drop as hybrids become more popular; battery packs currently run around $4900. However the pack contains 38 modules that can be replaced individually for $138.00 each. Honda's Insight and Civic hybrids have an 8-yr./80,000-mi. warranty on most of the powertrain, including batteries, and a three-year/36,000-mile warranty on the rest of the car. The Prius has an 8-yr./100,000-mi. warranty on the battery and hybrid systems, plus a three-year/36,000-mile warranty on everything else. The electric motors and batteries don't require maintenance over the life of the vehicle.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Actually GM just has a contract with Hummer to use the name and sell the cars.... they don't even own them.

Actually, AM General Corp. builds the Hummers for GM and GM owns the rights to the name "Hummer". So, GM does indeed own "Hummer" and AM General builds them for GM. And GM does indeed build some of the H3 in its own plant as well as the H2.

Hey, your the one who wanted to get technical.

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Although the H2 is basically just a Chevy Suburban with a shorter taller boxier body on it so Cash's kinda more right than you are! :-]

If you'll scroll up, I was the one who linked all of the correct frames to the correct models. Rob and I share in our rightness.

So, you have been wrong on the two items you tried to nitpick about. Maybe you should try a different topic?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

The Superstack that just simply "diluted" the pollution over a wider range has also been an amusing laughingstock for many, many years.

greg

Indeed, it is a "share the wealth" issue. Instead of ruining this little patch of land forever, let us ruin a far greater swath of land, over a longer period of time.

I used to design air scrubbers for chrome plating and painting companies. They should be able to do a better job that that.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Considering they don't even make the REAL hummer anymore, you might as well consider the entire company nothing more than rebadged chevies, since that's all they are now.

We all know you're the definitive car expert on the planet, but you're way off on your assertion that the H2 and H3 are nothing but "rebadged chevies (sic)."

They both have better ground clearance, suspension components, and much shorter overhangs for clearing large rocks, dirt mounds, etc., skid plates, and they will go places where few typical SUVs, including the Chevy branded models they're built off of will go. You can't go anywhere near where these will go, in a Suburban, Tahoe, or Canyon/Colorado.

http://www.forbesautos.com/research/...stdrive_3.html

Although we didn't have the chance to take the H2 SUT off-roading, we have no doubt that this truck is as capable as the standard H2 -- a vehicle which we've had rock crawling on ground we'd barely be able to scramble up on foot.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...22/309253.html

Of course, the H2 is every bit the truck that first captured the market's fancy in 2002. It's also a HUMMER first and foremost. That means it's capable of traveling through streams 20 inches (508 mm) deep, climbing 16-inch (406-mm) steps and rocks, paddling through deep sand and outdistancing competitors in high-speed desert runs.

http://www.edmunds.com/hummer/h2/review.html

Through our Hummer H2 reviews, we've found that this vehicle has few equals when taken off-road. Thanks to nearly 10 inches of ground clearance, 42-degree approach and 38-degree departure angles, generous wheel travel and a protected underbody, it can roll over just about any type of terrain without getting stuck or taking damage. On tight trails, however, the vehicle can be difficult to maneuver as its body is quite wide.

http://reviews.cnet.com/2006_Hummer_...-31352193.html

Although the H3 did not venture far off-road in our hands and is certainly like most Hummers in that regard, there's little doubt that it would acquit itself very admirably should owners suddenly decide that pavement bores them. The off-road suspension package for our H3 included LT285/75R16 Bridgestone Dueler A/T tires, an electronic full-locking rear differential, recalibrated shocks, and, noteworthy in this class of vehicle, a four-to-one two-speed transfer case, all of which should make creeping down even the most daunting road of boulders at least feasible. Ground clearance, approach and departure angles, fording ability, and slope-climbing ratings are all at or near the top of the midsize SUV class.

http://www.caranddriver.com/previews...-h3-page2.html

The Rubicon Trail is only about 11 or 12 miles long (depending on who's measuring and route variations), starting in the western Sierra Nevada Mountains and running to the western shore of Lake Tahoe. It's thoroughly rugged, and the parts of it that don't require crawling over granite boulders usually include crossing granite outcroppings. It's literally the standard against which other off-road routes are measured.

Starting at Wentworth Springs with tires running 20 pounds of inflation, we immediately put the H3s in low range to begin the two-day crawl and stayed there throughout the trip. With speeds rarely exceeding 5 mph, the H3s truly are adept and nimble climbers. There's a lot of travel in the suspension, the approach angles are generous, the steering is precise but doesn't buck much when pounding into rocks, the five-cylinder engine's throttle is progressive just off idle, and the four-wheel-drive and traction-control systems work seamlessly together under most conditions. The structure of the H3 is impressively stiff, which is particularly evident as the truck slides off rocks to slam down hard on the skid plates with solid thunks and few shudders.

http://www.forbesautos.com/reviews/2...testdrive.html

If it matters — and it does both to active off-roaders and to poseurs who imagine they could tackle California's High Sierra Rubicon Trail if they ever took the chance — you're also buying some serious off-road capability. With its steep approach and departure clearances, which determine how big an obstruction you might surmount without hitting it, substantial ground clearance and hog-wallowing tires, an H3 will do pretty much anything a Jeep can.

[centerchannel68]

YouTube - Hummer H2 fails amazingly!

YouTube - Hummers Suck

[OldManMac]

I know that no other off road vehicle's ever broken a tie rod, and that all off road drivers, except Hummer ones, know how to drive, so you've certainly proven your point, and it's quite obvious why you're the expert on SUVs. It's refreshing to see that we have someone here who knows more than the experts who do this stuff for a living.

[centerchannel68]

Dude, Hummers are purchased by jackasses. I really don't give a **** what they can do. The fact remains if I had a red button that would kill everybody who owned one and their entire families, I'd press it without any second thoughts. The H2 is one big craptastic vehicle made to evade cafe standards, emissions regulations, mpg regulations, and safety standards because of a loophole in the system that ASSUMED no automaker would make a passenger vehicle over 8,500lbs. Personally I hope they all tip over and the driver, a few seconds before they die from roof intrusion/spinal injuries, see all their kids being crushed to death so they realize what stupid SOBs they are.

But that's just my opinion.

[centerchannel68]

Also, one thing the H2s can never do is use turn signals, I'm pretty sure they don't even work in any of them, because I've certainly never seen a hummer owner use one.

[CreepDogg]

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the Hummer can do all these amazing mountain stunts. Great. Now what percentage of H2s and H3s bought are actually used for that purpose? I'd bet not many - not too many soccer moms want to get dirt on their $50K giganto-toy.

[centerchannel68]

Eg-zactly.

Oh, and sorry, a cheap jeep wrangler will still kick a hummer's ass in most cases.

Champ or Chump? TJ vs. Hummer

[CreepDogg]

Yeah - I have a bunch of cousins who all have Jeep Wranglers and they beat the crap out of them doing all kinds of crazy things. I've been at family gatherings where they're climbing them up trees and competing how high they can get them. Not really my bag, but all in good fun, and pretty cool to see what they can do...

[Cipher13]

H2 for offroading? Yeah right. You may not even FIT down a large number of tracks, so even if the vehicle was capable of decent offroading, you'd be screwed.

It isn't that the H2 can't handle being offroad - it's got strong axles (it has to), a high clearance, and decent entry and departure angle capabilities - and that'll get you through what most people consider offroading, if you know how to drive. Any car with those three things can do that, basically.

That said, it'd be last on my list of 4wds if I had to pick one. Wranglers/CJs, Defenders, Cruisers, hell, even Cherokees, Pajero's and Patrol's ALL run rings around them (almost literally).

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Dude, Hummers are purchased by jackasses. I really don't give a **** what they can do. The fact remains if I had a red button that would kill everybody who owned one and their entire families, I'd press it without any second thoughts. The H2 is one big craptastic vehicle made to evade cafe standards, emissions regulations, mpg regulations, and safety standards because of a loophole in the system that ASSUMED no automaker would make a passenger vehicle over 8,500lbs. Personally I hope they all tip over and the driver, a few seconds before they die from roof intrusion/spinal injuries, see all their kids being crushed to death so they realize what stupid SOBs they are.

But that's just my opinion.

Stay away from the water towers...

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I'm not sure if this is deadpan humour or not

It was an expression of frustration.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Eg-zactly.

Oh, and sorry, a cheap jeep wrangler will still kick a hummer's ass in most cases.

Champ or Chump? TJ vs. Hummer

Of course it will. So will an old Land Rover btw

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

That said, it'd be last on my list of 4wds if I had to pick one. Wranglers/CJs, Defenders, Cruisers, hell, even Cherokees, Pajero's and Patrol's ALL run rings around them (almost literally).

*cough*
You really should pop Cherokees before the "hell, even".

[Gossamer]

Mmmm....Cherokee
YouTube - how to destroy a jeep

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

*cough*
You really should pop Cherokees before the "hell, even".

As I typed the word "Cherokee" I had that exact same thought... then decided to leave it as it was