[xenu]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

I don't think you guys understand me. The hilight follows the cursor just fine... it just don't blink on every menu item so it "LOOKS" or "FEELS" laggy to me.

I guess I don't follow you - there is nothing 'laggy' about what I am seeing. It is fast and smooth.

Perhaps a movie of your experience would clear things up.

[Chuckit]

In the Safari Bookmarks menu, with a lot of bookmarks, if you manically shoot the cursor up and down, it lights up every other item? Because it doesn't on mine or TheSpaz's. I honestly never noticed until he pointed it out, because it only lights up any of the other items for a split second anyway, but apparently it feels laggy to him.

[Gamoe]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Well, he did order them to let Apple know. Making a "Fire! Fire!" thread about something so inconsequential is kind of begging to be made fun of. If I made a thread about how I'd prefer the Apple menu to be half a shade lighter (just 'cause I think it's pretty), I'd expect to be made fun of too.

I don't think he was yelling "Fire!". It's just that it is important to him. I think there are more important matters too, like how the Mac handles metadata and file name extensions, but to others that might seem rather trivial, too, even though I would argue that it is definitely not. In the end, even a detail like menu highlighting should be looked at-- as its part of the whole user experience.

[Appleman]

Originally Posted by chris v

it turns the muffler bearing-- DUH!

As you can see, I am not a native English speaker. I simply asked what a muffler belt means, since I never heard the word muffler.
Sorry I disturbed you

[d.fine]

Works fine here. I don't see the problem.

[Appleman]

Originally Posted by d.fine

Works fine here. I don't see the problem.

Well, what he is saying is true, indeed there's some skipping when you move your mouse fast over a large pull down menu in Finder. But then again, who cares. Or clikc on Safari Bookmarks pull down nemu, where you probably have a lot of items. If you move down fast it is skipping lots of items. NOthing to worry about though. At least I don't care.

[moodymonster]

go ~user/Library/Safari and trash the icons folder - this will speed up the bookmarks menu - just stick it in the bin and don't empty it first if you want to experiment.

[TheSpaz]

I never said anything about the bookmarks menu... I don't sit here and play with my bookmarks menu all day.

All I'm really saying is "It's not what it used to be like"... and in my opinion "it's worse".

[chris v]

Originally Posted by Appleman

As you can see, I am not a native English speaker. I simply asked what a muffler belt means, since I never heard the word muffler.
Sorry I disturbed you

Sorry, dude- there is neither a muffler belt or a muffler bearing. It's a 20 yo (at least) joke with auto mechanics to send newbies to the parts store for "muffler bearings." I thought you knew that, and was responding humerously.

Peace.

[Appleman]

Originally Posted by chris v

Sorry, dude- there is neither a muffler belt or a muffler bearing. It's a 20 yo (at least) joke with auto mechanics to send newbies to the parts store for "muffler bearings." I thought you knew that, and was responding humerously.

Peace.

Peace indeed. Really didn't know this, although being an engineer myself. Now I know. Thanks.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

go ~user/Library/Safari and trash the icons folder - this will speed up the bookmarks menu - just stick it in the bin and don't empty it first if you want to experiment.

It's not about the Bookmarks menu. It happens with any Cocoa menu. The Bookmarks menu is just one that's usually quite long, so it's easy to see it skipping the items.

[Appleman]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

It's not about the Bookmarks menu. It happens with any Cocoa menu. The Bookmarks menu is just one that's usually quite long, so it's easy to see it skipping the items.

Indeed, I just used it as an example, since it normally is a long one.

[schuey100]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

The hilight follows the cursor just fine..

HIGHLIGHT

[TheSpaz]

I tried to do a movie capture of this... but, Snapz Pro X doesn't pick it up fast enough to see it.

[tweedledum]

maybe it's your mouse tracking speed. try selecting a slower tracking speed in the keyboard&mouse pref pane.

[Chuckit]

I don't think he wants the cursor to move slower...

[saddino]

Yep, I see it too. In Cocoa apps (all of em), the menu highlight tries to keep up with the cursor, and hence appears to "jump" during fast vertical motion (er, ridiculously fast motion -- I can't believe 1) anyone moves their cursor that fast and 2) would notice). Carbon apps don't exhibit this behavior.

Still, with all the other rational gripes about Tiger, I can't imagine anything having less priority than "fixing" this.

[TheSpaz]

Just because you don't think it's important doesn't change the fact that it's important to me. When I'm using my OS I want it to be as smooth as possible.

It's like this. Say you play a game a lot... you got used to how well it performs on your machine. It had say 60fps most of the time. Then you upgraded to the next version of Mac OS... You would think you're game would still run 1t 60fps, but now runs at 45-50fps. At first you don't notice but, you can tell something is wrong because you're used to 60fps so much. That makes you wonder why it would go slower with the same game, same hardware... why would that change... it would be a bug. Now before you jump on my case about this paragraph... it was only an analogy... I have no idea if this has really happened in Mac OS games before, but that's kinda what I'm going through. I'm used to something one way... then it changes... and the change doesn't even make sense... It can't possibly be speeding up the OS.

That's all I'm getting at... it's a big deal to me. It's too bad that nobody else cares.

[CharlesS]

A better analogy is that the game now runs at 70 fps instead of 60 fps, but the graphics became simpler in some tiny imperceptible way to cause that speed gain.

[TheSpaz]

There is NO speed gain. Where are you seeing a benifit from this tiny phenomenon?

[3R1C]

I hear you spaz. The plain simple fact is that the current implementation of menu highlighting is inferior to previous implementations. As far as the flak you are receiving here, unfortunately many define their self worth by their ability to belittle others. Try not to let it get to you (Not that you are letting it get to you, I think you've carried yourself well), its not you.

[awaspaas]

Could it be that the developers choose to have the highlight follow the mouse more accurately in real-time now? If the highlight were drawn for every item no matter the speed, the trail of highlighted items may fall behind the mouse cursor if it's moved very quickly, especially on lower-end machines. This just ensures that the highlighted item is instantly under the mouse cursor when you slow down to stop on an item.

[Chuckit]

I'm sure it's a bug. But the fact is that it does absolutely no harm and is barely noticeable at all — it doesn't even cause any actual slowdown, graphical or otherwise. The reason people are mocking this is because it really doesn't matter at all. If Apple can fix it, that's good, but it's not going to make the system any more useful or productive.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

There is NO speed gain. Where are you seeing a benifit from this tiny phenomenon?

Maybe there is a speed gain on hardware that is slower than yours. Of course, something this tiny isn't going to be that noticeable, but then again I'm not the one who started a thread about it. Basically, this is one of many small things in Tiger which make the UI just a bit more responsive, which add up to make Tiger feel faster than its predecessors.

Anyway, my point was that your FPS analogy is invalid. This isn't slower in any way. It's just simpler. This would have the effect of the overall speed being faster, not slower.

[TheSpaz]

On a 350MHz iMac G3 running Panther... The menu highlights are perfect. Running Tiger however they are really really slow... Slower than my PowerBook G4 1GHz. So how is this faster?

[Chuckit]

It doesn't keep up with your mouse?

[iPhotoStuff]

1) Unresponsive UI is not "purely cosmetic." It is basic user feedback important for user communication.

2) Yes, in the middle of how poorly everything else is running in tiger, highlighted menu issues may seem like an unusually obsolete issue, but it is like having a broken side mirror on your Ferrari, it makes the whole experience feel a bit cheap and unrefined (and if you are like me is just so embarrassing when you cruise around town in your Ferrari with a broken mirror )

3) I don't have any problems on my G4 or G5 or iBook with this issue. Although, when I upgraded to Panther on my G3 I had the same issue and I was equally frustrated. It makes your OS and box feel like junk.

4) I like ice cream.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by 3R1C

I hear you spaz. The plain simple fact is that the current implementation of menu highlighting is inferior to previous implementations. As far as the flak you are receiving here, unfortunately many define their self worth by their ability to belittle others. Try not to let it get to you (Not that you are letting it get to you, I think you've carried yourself well), its not you.

This is not the issue though. What we're giving him flak for (at least what I've been giving him flak for) is his claim that he is less productive this way. I just find it overly dramatic.

[TheSpaz]

I'm not less productive because the menus are slower... I'm less productive because it annoys me and slows me down. When I'm opening menus in Cocoa apps... the first thing I think of is "Oh man I hate menus"... and then I think about how much I hate them now... and then I try and find out how to fix it but, of course I get no help. So that makes me less productive...

By the way... less can mean a fraction of time... I'm not saying I'm wasting hours of time over this issue and I'm not losing sleep over it as well.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

I'm not less productive because the menus are slower... I'm less productive because it annoys me and slows me down. When I'm opening menus in Cocoa apps... the first thing I think of is "Oh man I hate menus"... and then I think about how much I hate them now... and then I try and find out how to fix it but, of course I get no help. So that makes me less productive...

By the way... less can mean a fraction of time... I'm not saying I'm wasting hours of time over this issue and I'm not losing sleep over it as well.

Ahhhh...... okay.. I was getting confused over your use of language. I think what you really mean to say is that finding a fix for the menus has wasted your time. When one talks about productivity, it is usually in context with specific activities related to their workflow.. perhaps used somewhat interchangeably with "efficiency".

If this makes sense...

[dru]

I see it. I think it's just a trick to keep the UI responsive. It works as designed and the pointer and current hilight keeps up with the mouse. The scrollbars in Mac OSX haven't always worked so efficiently with the scroll thumb often lagging behind the mouse.

Interesting observation but not worth complaining about.

[TheSpaz]

It IS worth complaining about for me because it seriously makes Tiger feel clunky to me for some reason. Just to see the selection jump around like that. I think it should be silky smooth like it was in PANTHER.

[MacHarbor]

I am not a big fan of menus, so I try to learn all of the keyboard shortcuts. I still remember 8 years ago in my high school drafting class, I would be working on a project and says to myself "Edit, Undo..... CRAP!" Yeah, big geek back then, but the best kind, a Mac geek.

[TheSpaz]

Originally Posted by MacHarbor

I am not a big fan of menus, so I try to learn all of the keyboard shortcuts. I still remember 8 years ago in my high school drafting class, I would be working on a project and says to myself "Edit, Undo..... CRAP!" Yeah, big geek back then, but the best kind, a Mac geek.

I used to do that too when I was drawing or something. I would forget that I had to use the eraser instead of cmd-z. Back then I would spend all day on my Macintosh SE 30 and build HyperCard games. I miss HyperCard sometimes.

[pat++]

I had the exact same impression when I first installed Tiger on my IBook. Not sure if I got used to it now, but the menu hilighting did seem to lag behind the mouse... very unpleasant...

[TomR]

Sorry, I see no lagging on my new mini at all. The highlight keeps up fine while slewing through a menu list.

Tom

[Mac The Fork]

I haven't installed Tiger yet, but the effect was quite jarring when I was fooling around with the Tiger install DVD.

Maybe there is a speed gain on hardware that is slower than yours. Of course, something this tiny isn't going to be that noticeable, but then again I'm not the one who started a thread about it. Basically, this is one of many small things in Tiger which make the UI just a bit more responsive, which add up to make Tiger feel faster than its predecessors.

Anyway, my point was that your FPS analogy is invalid. This isn't slower in any way. It's just simpler. This would have the effect of the overall speed being faster, not slower.

Skipping menu item highlights to improve responsiveness is not new in Tiger. Panther, at the very least, skips as many highlights as it takes to maintain responsiveness. For whatever reason, Tiger seems to be slower at highlighting menu items than Panther and skips noticeably more of them to maintain the same responsiveness, at least on some of Apple's current hardware. This drop in performance may simply be in code exclusive to menu drawing, or it could be a general problem or new design tradeoff with Quartz. Either way, it is not a prima facie improvement.

[jamil5454]

I think something is definitely wrong with the way the highlights appear as you move your mouse in Tiger. Try opening up a menu in Linux or Windows and scrolling through it. Much smoother.

I belive this occurs for a number of reasons. Firstly, when scrolling down, the highlight skips to the next item BEFORE the tip of the mouse pointer actually gets there. When scrolling up, it behaves normally and moves the highlight when the tip of the mouse pointer reaches the next item.

Second, there are grayed-out items that do not get highlighted when you move the mouse over them. This just causes confusion and isn't consistent with the rest of the system.

Third, there are small breaks in the menus that your mouse has to move over before it can get to the next set of menu items. This gives the feeling of laginess too.

I think a nice solution that would fix this problem is to have fast, fading menu highlighting that follows the TIP of the mouse pointer precisely. It wouldn't hurt to make the breaks between groups of menu items smaller, either.

Apple tried to cheat a little by changing the highlighted menu item too early as you scroll down. This would make up for any lag, but when you scroll slowly or just scroll up you'll notice the difference.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by jamil5454

Second, there are grayed-out items that do not get highlighted when you move the mouse over them. This just causes confusion and isn't consistent with the rest of the system.

What part of the system lets you activate disabled controls? Isn't that kind of the point of disabled items?

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by jamil5454

Second, there are grayed-out items that do not get highlighted when you move the mouse over them. This just causes confusion and isn't consistent with the rest of the system.

Okay, this HAS to be a troll. The grayed out menu items are grayed out BECAUSE THERE IS NO ACTIVE FUNCTION ASSOCIATED WITH THAT ITEM AT THAT MOMENT! Fr'instance, if I go to the View menu in Safari right now, the "Stop" item is grayed out, because THE PROGRAM ISN'T LOADING ANYTHING WHICH CAN BE STOPPED!

[TheSpaz]

Originally Posted by jamil5454

Apple tried to cheat a little by changing the highlighted menu item too early as you scroll down. This would make up for any lag, but when you scroll slowly or just scroll up you'll notice the difference.

This isn't what I'm talking about. Try the menus in iTunes or iPhoto for instance... really really quick there... you get a faint selection, but you get a selection on every menu item. Secondly, those grayed out menu items have been there since menus ever existed and they never got selected (can anyone confirm this?)... Thridly moving up or down does not make a difference for me, it still looks laggy (I am using the apple menu which has no disabled items in it).

I also tried turning on Quartz 2D Extreme and that did not help at all. This is definately a bug because it ISN'T INTENTIONAL. It doesn't make the user experience any faster, it couldn't possibly be speeding up other things... OS X and Quartz Extreme are EXTREMELY fast already so I doubt little highlights are going to make it any slower or faster.

It sucks when I'm using OS X Tiger and I have to use menus and it feels skippy and laggy (like slow framerates) and it annoys me... it annoys me more than this thread is annoying everyone else.

Mac users strive for perfection... that's why I am a Mac user to begin with because Microsoft doesn't know what they're doing. I hate Windows OS and I'd rather deal with the laggy menus but, I still think it's something that needs to be fixed as soon as possible!

[Mac The Fork]

Secondly, those grayed out menu items have been there since menus ever existed and they never got selected (can anyone confirm this?)

I don't remember disabled items having been selectable. They are on Windows.

[tikki]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

It IS worth complaining about for me because it seriously makes Tiger feel clunky to me for some reason. Just to see the selection jump around like that. I think it should be silky smooth like it was in PANTHER.

Then complain about it:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

[cla]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

The reason why it's annoying is that it tricks my eye into thinking the cursor isn't hovering over the selection that I want to make...

Hi TheSpaz.
If it tricks your eye as to the location of the cursor, I'd say it's a flaw. I have a fast computer and perfect vision, yet I suffered from the same problem in other situations. My solution was to slightly increase the size of the mouse pointer (Accessability), which worked wonders for me. I also experience a slight increase in my general ability of hitting targets.

(P.S If you post user interface specific issues at macnn, know that most people are laymen. To them, HCI is an art, not a science. Arts invite for personal opinions.)

[TheSpaz]

Well well well... here we are at the marvelous 10.4.2... I had high hopes for this update to relieve my problem of the slow menus and it's NOT just me and I'm NOT imagining anything because I've tested it on EVERY Mac at the Apple store and they ALL do the same exact thing in ALL Cocoa apps. I really wish Apple would fix this... I submitted it as a bug report twice (once for 10.4 and once for 10.4.1). Why doesn't anyone else notice this and why doesn't it bother anyone else besides me? It seriously makes me NOT want to use Tiger because it FEELS slower... it's not as naturally flowing as it was in Panther (and Carbon Apps such as iTunes or Illustrator).

Please... will anyone agree with me so I can rest assure that I'm not truely going insane... Tiger is a great OS and all and I would love to use it but it makes me cringe everytime I have to access a menu and watch the selection skip around like as if my computer isn't fast enough to draw a stupid little highlight (spelled it right that time).

ARGH!

[msuper69]

I'll never understand what you people do to your Macs to have all the "problems" you spout off about. My measly old Tibook from 2001 runs Tiger just fine. No menu lagging whatsoever. I do believe we are seeing mostly PEBCAK errors.

[TheSpaz]

I've tested this problem on all the Macs I could find... including PowerMac G5, iMac G5, PowerBook G4 12", 15" and 17", iBook G4 and iMac G3 and PowerMac G4... all have the same problem... I don't think it's video card specific... but, I could be wrong. Also, I think it gets worse with the longer you leave your computer running... I noticed that at work when I first boot up in the morning it's a little better... by night time it's pretty laggy.

I hope Apple brings this back to Panther speed.

[BearOso]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

I've tested this problem on all the Macs I could find... including PowerMac G5, iMac G5, PowerBook G4 12", 15" and 17", iBook G4 and iMac G3 and PowerMac G4... all have the same problem... I don't think it's video card specific... but, I could be wrong. Also, I think it gets worse with the longer you leave your computer running... I noticed that at work when I first boot up in the morning it's a little better... by night time it's pretty laggy.

I hope Apple brings this back to Panther speed.

For me, the problem is instantaneous from bootup. Have you tried using the keyboard and looked at how the arrow keys move the highlight? It looks to me as if that's faster. Thus, I think it could just be a "problem" with the mouse tracking rate in Cocoa.

Apple might have lowered the polling rate to improve speed on lower-end machines as many have suggested. It's not a problem for me, as I don't see it unless I look for it, and it doesn't bother me that much--but I can sympathize with your perspective. It definitely wasn't there in Panther, and it definitely is slower.

[TheSpaz]

I definately have a pretty fast computer... PowerBook G4 1GHz Aluminum 12" and this problem is more noticable on my PowerBook than on an iMac G3... go figure... maybe my eyes are just seeing the LCD refresh rate is a little slower than the iMac's refresh rate... maybe that's all I'm seeing but, I swear the PowerBook seems slower.

Also other points:
- Snap To Grid Animation seems choppy in Tiger
- Scrolling in the Finder also seems choppy

On a good note... they made Dashboard prettier and Spotlight works sometimes.

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by tikki

Then complain about it:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

Fo' rea'. While I see exactly what you are talking about—it's definitely noticeable—there is nothing that is "slow" about this other than in the psychological and visual sense. This has affected my productivity in Tiger approximately 0%. Just gotta keep bitching to Apple about it if it's that important to you.