[Zimphire]

Maybe its all done on purpose.

[jasong]

Originally Posted by Simon

doesn't it bug anybody else here, that . . . Apple didn't feel the need to lower the price by a single dollar?

They just don't want the PM to compete with the Mac Mini

[Demonhood]

damn.
well, i can't deal with using a dual G4/500 anymore, so i'll be buying one anyway.

[Agent69]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

You guys act like a dual 1.25 ghz G4 is slow.

Actually, I am still pretty pleased with my single 1.25ghz G4 MDD. I stuffed it with 2GB of RAM when I ordered it in 2003 and it runs great. But I think now is a good time for me to upgrade to the dual 2.0ghz G5 because it gives me an upgrade in almost every aspect:

-Enables SMP (2 processors vs 1 processor)
-Faster clock speed (2.0ghz vs 1.25ghz)
-Faster FSB (1.0ghz vs 167mhz)
-Faster video (8x AGP vs 4x AGP)
-More VRAM (128MB VRAM vs 64MB VRAM)
-Bigger HDD (160GB vs 80GB)
-Faster USB (USB 2.0 vs USB 1.1)
-Faster Firewire (FW800 vs FW400)
-Better optical drive (DL Superdrive vs Combo drive)
-Faster Wireless (Airport Extreme vs Airport)

Plus, buying tomorrow gets me a Core Image compatable video card and Tiger, both of which I would purchase if I didn't upgrade. And finally, as an added bonus, I am eligible for the goverment employee discount, so I save money there too.

Now, if I had a dual 1.42ghz G4 or a G5, I don't know that I would upgrade.

[GSixZero]

Anyone else think it's odd that they're not on the Apple Store yet?

[deboerjo]

At 2.7GHz, the new G5s have the Athlon64 family beat by 100Mhz, you really can't ask for more than that. The G5 (or ANY reasonable processor design) is never going to ramp up to the speeds of the Pentium 4 with it's rediculous 30-stage pipe, and even that's stuck at 3.8GHz. Taking a cue from the rest of the industry, with Intel's recent announcement of cancelling plans for 4GHz indefinitly, and AMD's roadmaps showing no speed gains past the current 2.6GHz in the near future, I doubt IBM's going to have a 3GHz G5 in anything less than 18 months. IBM is not alone in the industry in discovering they're pushing the limits of how high clock speeds can go.

[E's Lil Theorem]

Originally Posted by GSixZero

Anyone else think it's odd that they're not on the Apple Store yet?

Well, this was a mistake either someone at Apple or Amazon made. Apple was probably planning on making a formal announcement next week after the release of Tiger, but who knows what they'll do now.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by E's Lil Theorem

Well, this was a mistake either someone at Apple or Amazon made. Apple was probably planning on making a formal announcement next week after the release of Tiger, but who knows what they'll do now.

Well, AI is claiming Apple will introduce them tomorrow.

[k2director]

The silver lining in all this is:

There's a good chance that Apple will show dual-core machines at the WWDC in early June, to start shipping in late August or September. If you're going to unveil a significantly new PowerMac architecture, that's the place to do it...

June 6 isn't too far away...

[badtz]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I'd be very surprised if Apple didn't introduce PCIe in the next revision. I'd also expect 970MP. I'm not convinced they'll use DDR2 though.

same here, not convinced they'll use DDR2; they better incorporate PCIe on the next revision though [and hopefully dual-core by then also]

[TiDual]

Originally Posted by k2director

The silver lining in all this is:

There's a good chance that Apple will show dual-core machines at the WWDC in early June, to start shipping in late August or September. If you're going to unveil a significantly new PowerMac architecture, that's the place to do it...

June 6 isn't too far away...

Apple is not going to announce machines on 29 April, and then announce new machines in 6 weeks. There is simply no precendent for that (even with machines shipping in Aug/Sept).

Realistically these machines will be with us for 6-9 months. Dual core machines next Jan, is my bet (though I'd love to see them in this financial year).

The main point is made above ... there's nothing wrong with these machines. 18 months ago the dual 2GHz was awsome, now a dual 2.7GHz is still matching performance with the best on the PC side. Sure it would be great to have dual core, 3GHz but current machines are very good. What I'm more surprised by, is the price ... I was thinking a 100-200$/Euro drop was on the cards.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by E's Lil Theorem

Does this mean we have to wait until MWSF for a 3GHz machine? Or maybe around September during MW Paris?

If you mean September 2006, then yeah, this is a possibility.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by GSixZero

Anyone else think it's odd that they're not on the Apple Store yet?

Look again tomorrow.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by TiDual

Realistically these machines will be with us for 6-9 months.

I would say that this depends on the processor of the next update. It could very easily be again 10-12 months.

[k2director]

Originally Posted by TiDual

Apple is not going to announce machines on 29 April, and then announce new machines in 6 weeks. There is simply no precendent for that (even with machines shipping in Aug/Sept).

Lots of things happen in the world without a precedent!

But if you want a close one: in November 2002, Apple released the 15" 867MHz Powerbook, and then *2 months later*, it introduced the 12" and 17" Powerbooks. Plenty of people complained that they had just bought a 15" Powerbook in November, but that didn't stop Apple.

The fact is, many customers AREN'T satisfied with the new PowerMacs, nor the existing 2.5s. Apple keeps selling less and less of their flagship machine, and it will act to counter that trend as soon as possible. None of us can really know what technical or manufacturing obstacles are still left to solve, but when they *are* solved, Apple will get the machines out the door. It doesn't seem like a stretch to believe that a new machine could be ready to ship in Sept, does it? We've known about MP processors and PCIe for a while, and Apple/IBM have certainly had a lot longer to work on it all.

Really, a dual core machine could be introduced in June as an EXTENSION of the current PowerMac family, not a replacement for existing models (like the 12 and 17" Powerbooks were extensions, not replacements of the 15"). It could be one or two top-tier machines. And again, the WWDC is a perfect venue, since this is a machine that developers would crave, and the conference has also been the scene of the last two PowerMac intros (how's that for precedent?).

I can see it happening. It may not, but it's definitely a possibility. Hope springs eternal!

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by k2director

But if you want a close one: in November 2002, Apple released the 15" 867MHz Powerbook, and then *2 months later*, it introduced the 12" and 17" Powerbooks. Plenty of people complained that they had just bought a 15" Powerbook in November, but that didn't stop Apple.

Heh. I mentioned the exact same thing in another thread. I specifically remember this because at the time I wanted a 12" PowerBook, but there wasn't one. I was sick of the G3 iBooks, so I bought a 15" PowerBook. 2 months later, the 12" PowerBook came out.

I don't expect WWDC to bring the quad, but it's not an impossibility.

[jimi5150]

Way back . . . I was editing on an Avid that sported a 200mHz Powermac 9600. When Final Cut first came out, I had it loaded on a Dual 500 G4. In those early days I wasn't wholly convinced Final Cut was "it". Partially because, in spite of the difference in machines, the Avid was quite a bit faster. Now, of course, I love Final Cut and you couldn't pay me to go back to Avid but it did illustrate what was good about the Avid system . . . the software. Even if Apple actually comes out with a 3gHz model, it really won't be that much of a speed bump, percentage-wise. I am more interested in Apple improving the performance of their software. Something that can make a bigger difference, in terms of speed, than modest processor boosts. Motion is a great example of this . . . sharing cpu duties with the gpu. I'm anxious to hear reports on the new pro application line up.

Like others, however, I do wish Apple would offer more initial RAM and the ability to have more than two drives in the box. Maybe the Amazon ad was way premature?

jimi

[osxisfun]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Heh. I mentioned the exact same thing in another thread. I specifically remember this because at the time I wanted a 12" PowerBook, but there wasn't one. I was sick of the G3 iBooks, so I bought a 15" PowerBook. 2 months later, the 12" PowerBook came out.

I don't expect WWDC to bring the quad, but it's not an impossibility.

and apple took so damn long for these updates that i "switched" to a powerbook since its pretty fast compared to a 2.0 g5 but a whole lot easier to pickup and throw in a bag...

[SierraDragon]

Obviously there is much more to throughput than cpu speed. We need to see *all* the specs before evaluating value.

Things like addressable RAM become a big issue for graphics users now that Photoshop and OS X are allowing folks to address more than approx. 1.8 GB per application. 8 RAM slots is ok only for now; purchasers of new boxes should be buying for the next 3 years, and during that time the capability to take advantage of more than 8 GB RAM is very likely. IMO more than 1 GB per slot and/or more than 8 slots is needed, and with appropriate cooling.

Personally I do not want Apple to start with more than 0.5 GB of RAM! They price RAM so high I would prefer a lower price rather than more expensive Apple RAM. I will add my own. And the OS and apps are stable at 512 MB RAM.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by k2director

Really, a dual core machine could be introduced in June as an EXTENSION of the current PowerMac family, not a replacement for existing models (like the 12 and 17" Powerbooks were extensions, not replacements of the 15").

Well, yeah, I can see an addition to the current Power Mac line. But it needs to have two dual core processors for the price of the high end Power Mac (or a little more).

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon

Obviously there is much more to throughput than cpu speed. We need to see *all* the specs before evaluting value.

Things like addressable RAM become a big issue for graphics users now that Photoshop and OS X are allowing folks to address more than approx. 1.8 GB per application. 8 RAM slots is ok only for now; purchasers of new boxes should be buying for the next 3 years, and during that time the capability to take advantage of more than 8 GB RAM is very likely. IMO more than 1 GB per slot and/or more than 8 slots is needed, and with appropriate cooling.

The current Power Mac supports 16 GB DDR already, using 2 GB sticks. Cooling is not an issue.

I'm not convinced 2 GB DDR400 sticks will ever become mainstream however. I suspect that people requiring 2 GB sticks will be using another type of memory, such as DDR2 or something.

Anyways, I see very little benefit for 99.99% of users to have a Power Mac with more than 8 slots for RAM.

[rotuts]

Well
I just love these threads. lots of spec and the price is right!
I just am trying to view the updated G5's as a price drop. now when I get one, when I need one it will have a dual layer DVD.
but like most, Id like one, can get my on my G4dual and will wait for the dual duals because I can.
and most importantly,

thanks for the tip on the tummies! if I could just lean how to get mozilla to open two windows.

rotut

[OtisWild]

... if Apple juiced up the vidcards at least!

These should be running stock Geforce 6800s on the 2.0/2.3 and 6800gts on the 2.7, no extra charge. You can't even pick ATIs that compare except for the X800 since ATI has gotten mostly out of the AGP business already. What bug is up Apples nethers regarding nvidia anyway??

If these boxes come out with ass ATI 9600 Radeons, you might as well buy refurb 2.0!

Second. Lamest. Refresh. EVAR....

[MetalArtist]

i have to agree this update is very reminiscent of the Tibook/17" Powerbook transition. the 17" was a new class of Powerbook and out of reach for alot of consumers, a lust object to be sure, but the 15" Alu continued to sell well for months after the 17" was introduced because it is and continues to be a machine for a small segment of pro users. Its too costly and unwieldy for the majority of customers.

A Dual Core/Dual Chip/PCIe/DDR2 PowerMac with the amount of internal expansion that has been rumored is not something that is in the same league as the current Power Mac. The price point would be above $5000 and would be gross overkill for all but the segment of professional that require and can afford that type of machine. Were talking profession 2D and 3D animation, high end compositing and visual effects for film, high-end industrial design and simulation. These are very specific markets and like the XServe you wont be seeing this machine available at your local Apple Store.

The current PMacs are perfectly suited for broadcast (they are eating them up like candy), audio production, motion graphics, and internet media, but they lack certain things that this new class of machine might just have. Things like more raw processing power, parallelization, ability to adress huge amounts of memory efficiently, support for high-level graphics processors with that pump out geomety and are highly programmable. ISVs like Alias dont provide the same level of support for Macs because of the lack of these features and this is an important consideration for clients like ILM or WETA or DreamWorks who wont invest in Macs without having this support. Since major production houses dont invest in Macs, freelancers and smaller houses wont either for fear of not being level with the rest of the industry. Apple is courting this industry alot showing of at Siggraph the way theyve been the last couple years and customers are very interested, but not CONVINCED. I think the rumored Super Mac is probably being developed specifically for these customers.

It cant cannibalize current Power Mac having a high price point and being marketed towards such a specific market. It would likely get an "X" moniker like XServe and Xsan. Hell, your Power Mac might suddenly look like a bargain when placed next to our fantasy "Xstation" and it might boost even boost sales. I actually think having a real hardcore enterprise level workstation is something Apple is missing from its line up. It would really push Apple as the defacto platform for content creators, and it would also help their retail effort if the iMac or Power Mac you buy comes from the same company that makes the system that powered the next blockbuster motion picture.

[rotuts]

excellent points MetalArtist.

and BTW and sl off topic: how did Zimphire ever get 28,269 posts? and those cool colored stars?

rotut

[denim]

Keep in mind that at the same time IBM is having trouble going faster, so is Motorola AND Intel. Intel went from MORE SPEED MORE MORE MORE!!! to multicore and other improvements. It's possible that they have reached a limit with the current tech, and that further improvements will require serious changes to the tech.

Oh, and would you prefer 0.2GHz speed improvement for a HIGHER price? Stop whining.

[MetalArtist]

Another thing to keep in mind is that if such a machine were being produced, you might just see it previewed at WWDC and then again at SIGGRAPH in August.

[buddhasuerth]

we all thought it was gonna be a pda and it turned out to be an ipod?

we all thought it was gonna be a pda and it turned out to be a flat panel imac?

we all thought it was gonna be an iPhone and it turned out to be itunes for motorola?

i've got 3G's burning a hole in my pocket, i don't believe this 2.7 Ghz bs for a second.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by buddhasuerth

i've got 3G's burning a hole in my pocket, i don't believe this 2.7 Ghz bs for a second.

Be prepared for a cold shower then. Very likely tomorrow.

[rotuts]

maybe it wont be until at or after the 10.4 'ship' date as they should include 10.4 with it?

[gururafiki]

Originally Posted by rotuts

maybe it wont be until at or after the 10.4 'ship' date as they should include 10.4 with it?

Thats what I am thinking. They always release these things on a tuesday it seems. Maybe next week?

[Todd Madson]

I've been running for the last six years on a sawtooth G4/400 with 2 gigs of ram,
three 80 gig drives, the 17" studio monitor and an aftermarket CD-RW. The thing
just basically started falling apart when I started spending tons of time looking for
jobs and admittedly surfing the web all day when my job got outsourced. I used it
to death. The monitor blew up, the CD-RW failed, the machine started getting real
iffy. I knew it was time to replace it. I didn't get hired again until February.

Last weekend it finally just went "AK!" and stopped working altogether (long story).

The point I'm making.....ANY machine would be an improvement for me. Going
from a 100 mhz bus 400 mhz G4 cpu to a 64-bit (sorta) 1 ghz + bus with dual G5
CPUs running at least 2 ghz apiece and running Tiger. Big difference.

Try running the old DR release of OS X before 10.1 and comparing it - big difference.

I believe people who currently have G5s will enjoy performance increases using
Tiger. The new machines are admittedly a bump but if I can swing it I'll take it.
I need to replace the dead machine.

I used EVERY trick in the book to get more tracks out of the G4 (I'm a musician
at times, an IT guy at others) and that thing could sometimes get as much as 40+
tracks simultaneously but only when the moon was in phase. Lately it would just
choke running too many software synths. Garageband would kill it after 8-10 tracks.

My wifes' 17" iMac (lamp style) is a 1+ ghz G4 and that thing seemed mega fast
compared to my old tank.

So, this upgrade isn't what we really lust for, at least it is SOMETHING.

Besides, if we went with PCI Express video cards anyway they all cost an arm
and a leg right now.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by rotuts

maybe it wont be until at or after the 10.4 'ship' date as they should include 10.4 with it?

Announced in Apple's site Wednesday and shipping from Friday or next week. Just to let Tiger go on without distraction from further releases for at least one week. That's my guess at least.

[BrunoBruin]

Originally Posted by rotuts

maybe it wont be until at or after the 10.4 'ship' date as they should include 10.4 with it?

If you order one tomorrow, Apple will be more than happy to take your money, but I doubt very much that FedEx could get it to you before Friday.

The question is, when will they be available in stores? If I recall correctly, the G4 iBooks that came out the week 10.3 was released were not made available for sale until the day Panther went on sale. The stores had them but weren't allowed to display them.

[OtisWild]

Originally Posted by Todd Madson

Besides, if we went with PCI Express video cards anyway they all cost an arm
and a leg right now.

Dude, we're talking _Apple_ here, any effing BTO video board would cost an arm and a leg, PCIe or no, they already do..

Besides, Apple has a hard-on for ATI for whatever reason, and ATI are already buidling PCIe for their new gen and slapping AGP bridge chips on them for backwards compatibility. Wonder where the X-series cards (besides X800) are? They're all PCIe....

So, Apple gets stuck with last gen crap for video. Pretty sucky.

Hey, Steve, why not kiss and make up with nVidia and get some decent current-gen AGP cards like the 6800GT (which mysteriously vanished from BTO) and 6600GT, instead of that FX5900/9600 crapola?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by OtisWild

Dude, we're talking _Apple_ here, any effing BTO video board would cost an arm and a leg, PCIe or no, they already do..

Besides, Apple has a hard-on for ATI for whatever reason, and ATI are already buidling PCIe for their new gen and slapping AGP bridge chips on them for backwards compatibility. Wonder where the X-series cards (besides X800) are? They're all PCIe....

So, Apple gets stuck with last gen crap for video. Pretty sucky.

Hey, Steve, why not kiss and make up with nVidia and get some decent current-gen AGP cards like the 6800GT (which mysteriously vanished from BTO) and 6600GT, instead of that FX5900/9600 crapola?

You probably have not been following Apple for that long, since we are *never* given more than a few graphics card choices in any given generation.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

I was looking forward to something more substantial. I wanted to pick-up the top-end PowerMac for video editing, Photoshop, Illustrator and Motion/Flash, among other things for web development purposes.

But this update (should it be true; which I'm sure it is) has me playing the same old game I played with the last Powerbook revision. I eventually caved 2 weeks ago and got my 17" PB, although that purchase was a little different. I don't need bleeding edge for a notebook... but at my desk I want something that is going to utilize the newer tech. PCIe would have been a nice addition and a larger amount of standard RAM (512mb for top dollar?).

I guess I'll be holding onto my cash a few months longer than I had expected. I'll be watching WWDC but I'd guess that might be more of a PB G5 thing.

[osxisfun]

>. I'll be watching WWDC but I'd guess that might be more of a PB G5 thing.

Highly unlikely IMO.

[Kyros]

At 2.7 ghz, aren't these the fastest dual cpu computers in the world (personal computer anyway)? Why are we complaining about the weak bump when there is no company in the world that is making any significant increases in chip speed. Intel has hit a wall at 3.73 ghz. Opterons just got to 2.6, from 2.4 right? That's also just a .2 ghz increase. Sure, Steve promised us 3Ghz by almost a year ago, but things changed. Personally, I'd rather they focus on making faster laptops. Those are the only ones lagging behind in processor speed.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

Originally Posted by osxisfun

>. I'll be watching WWDC but I'd guess that might be more of a PB G5 thing.

Highly unlikely IMO.

I'm pretty much of the same opinion. But, I'm extremely happy with my 17"PB so I couldn't care any less.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by MetalArtist

i have to agree this update is very reminiscent of the Tibook/17" Powerbook transition. the 17" was a new class of Powerbook and out of reach for alot of consumers, a lust object to be sure, but the 15" Alu continued to sell well for months after the 17" was introduced because it is and continues to be a machine for a small segment of pro users. Its too costly and unwieldy for the majority of customers.

Well that, and the fact that the 15" could boot OS 9. The 17" couldn't. As much as I hate OS 9, at the time there were a LOT of people on PowerBooks who needed to boot OS 9.

P.S. I'm predicting a top end quad will be $3999. But a WWDC release is optimistic.

Originally Posted by buddhasuerth

i've got 3G's burning a hole in my pocket, i don't believe this 2.7 Ghz bs for a second.

Welcome to MacNN, but what are you smoking?

Originally Posted by Kyros

At 2.7 ghz, aren't these the fastest dual cpu computers in the world (personal computer anyway)?

No.

[osxisfun]

>Welcome to MacNN, but what are you smoking?

and where can those of us in day 327 of the long slog towards new powermacs buy some....

[jamil5454]

Nor have we had the option of a FX5900.

[Duncan3]

Oh please... anyone who thinks Apple is gonna sacrifice a whole YEAR of PowerMac models without dual cores, when AMD and Intel are going full steam ahead with dual core... is insane.

If they did, the stock will only be good for blowing your nose in.

[AssassyN]

Guys, don't be so sad.

The absolute BEST part about this is this: the liquid cooled Dual 2.5Ghz G5s are gonna be MAD cheap in the "Sale" section on Apple.com....nab one of those if you're upgrading!

[hldan]

I was just curious why Apple doesn't use DDR2 Ram in their computers. I was certain that the new PowerMacs might use the new DDR2. Does this memory work with Apple computers or does it really make a difference in speed? Any thoughts?

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by hldan

I was just curious why Apple doesn't use DDR2 Ram in their computers. I was certain that the new PowerMacs might use the new DDR2. Does this memory work with Apple computers or does it really make a difference in speed? Any thoughts?

1) DDR2 is expensive.

2) At lot of benchmarking on the PC side has suggested that in overall performance in general testing, performance going from DDR400 to DDR2-533 isn't much of an improvement. DDR2's higher bandwidth is offset by its higher latency. To really see a significant improvement overall, one might want to move directly to DDR2-667. For DDR2-667, see point #1.

3) Their current motherboard already works fine.

It might make more sense that a future motherboard, possibly the 970MP compatible PCIe one, will get DDR2. However, I'm not convinced it will even come with the PCIe one initially. See #1.

[Link]

The only thing I can say about the whole dual 2.7ghz thing and the mess of crap going on with it "It's out! Oh wait, no that's all screwy" -- is a giant publicity stunt. How long apple's going to make everyone wait (and gain interest in the process), nobody really knows.

[Lateralus]

A giant publicity stunt for 200MHz... WTF?

Think harder.

[Link]

No, the "quagmire" 200mhz speedbump, which was heavily rumored, got insane negative ratings on a few rumor sites, picked up lots of attention, and somehow even fooled amazon into putting it up..

Then suddenly, oh wait no g5s yet! Hrmm...

*later that week* Still no G5s, what the heck is going on here? Apple?

Give it a few days, I wouldn't be surprised if suddenly the g5 dual 2.7 came out in the morning as expected, but I wouldn't be surprised if they held it off a few days, or even a few weeks, to surprise everyone with some dual dualcore madness of some sort, or at least a 3ghz machine.