[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

About that. The Pages '08 title bar always says Untitled (Word Processing). Are there any other modes to choose from?

Yes, Page Layout, which was the only mode prior to '08.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

About that. The Pages '08 title bar always says Untitled (Word Processing). Are there any other modes to choose from?

Pages has word processing and page layout modes.

[Art Vandelay]

Some thoughts on this release...

• Interface overall (except for Entourage) is more Mac-like but something feels off. Feels like it isn't a native interface but one made to look like it's native
• Entourage's interface is the worst of the Office apps. Toolbar icons are huge compared to the other apps. Feels the least native.
• Still does not support full keyboard access.
• GUI is sometimes fast, sometimes slow.
• Main menus do not always appear when clicked on.
• Fonts are now installed in /Library instead of ~/Library finally.
• Fonts are installed in a separate "Microsoft" folder leading to duplicate fonts
• Office Update only looks for updates for apps that have already been launched, not the whole suite as it should.

Overall, I'm underwhelmed. Granted, this is a beta but I think I'll be sticking with iWork '08 for personal use.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

• Entourage's interface is the worst of the Office apps. Toolbar icons are huge compared to the other apps. Feels the least native.

You'd be surprised to learn that it is a normal toolbar. You can drag things around by holding down command and it also has the default Customize Toolbar dialog window. Word, Excel and PowerPoint do not share any of this.

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

Yes, Page Layout, which was the only mode prior to '08.

First time I actually saw the difference when looking around the Template Chooser. Thanks.

Is there any way to "convert" a document from Word Processing mode to Page Layout? I'm able to do this with Word 2008, but can't seem to find it in Pages.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

You'd be surprised to learn that it is a normal toolbar. You can drag things around by holding down command and it also has the default Customize Toolbar dialog window. Word, Excel and PowerPoint do not share any of this.

Interesting, did not notice that. I should clarify what I meant... It appears the least native to me in spite of it actually being the most native. The default toolbar icons are so huge. Although, that's how they used to be in Aqua back in the early days of OS X. Now they default to being much smaller. At least it's customizable. Still, they should change it to fit today's Tiger/Leopard Aqua appearance instead of Puma/Cheetah's.

I also dislike how they have mixed toolbar button styles in Entourage.

[philm]

Is this a public beta? Read: how can I get hold of this beta?

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Is there any way to "convert" a document from Word Processing mode to Page Layout? I'm able to do this with Word 2008, but can't seem to find it in Pages.

Haven't found a way myself.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

Interesting, did not notice that. I should clarify what I meant... It appears the least native to me in spite of it actually being the most native. The default toolbar icons are so huge. Although, that's how they used to be in Aqua back in the early days of OS X. Now they default to being much smaller. At least it's customizable. Still, they should change it to fit today's Tiger/Leopard Aqua appearance instead of Puma/Cheetah's.

I also dislike how they have mixed toolbar button styles in Entourage.

The icons are 32x32 pixels in size. It's the default Mac OS X toolbar icon size. Basically all applications with a normal toolbar share this. That includes Pages, Keynote and Numbers.

Left: Pages, Right: Entourage


As you can see the toolbars are identical in size, so I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.

You can make them smaller by right clicking and selecting "Use Small Size". Also a default feature.

Overal Entourage/Outlook never really was a very attractive application. It isn't on Windows and it isn't on Mac OS.

[Art Vandelay]

Entourage defaults to the full size. iWork defaults to the smaller size. Also, many current apps don't even use that style of buttons anymore. That's what I was referring to. When you're used to seeing buttons that are smaller (Pages) or a different style (Mail, Safari, etc.), Entourage's default buttons are quite jarring.

It is good that they are customizable. Just to note, however, that my opinions I've given so far are just first impressions of the software.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

Entourage defaults to the full size. iWork defaults to the smaller size.

That's just because the iWork applications by default carry a lot of toolbar icons, especially Keynote. But overal it's a normal 32x32 pixel toolbar. Just like Preview, Transmission, Acquisition, Transmit, Apple Remote Desktop, VMware Fusion you name it.

All those other applications are actually breaking the default look.

But you're right, the toolbar icons themselves are pretty ugly. And so is Entourage as a whole.

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

Entourage defaults to the full size. iWork defaults to the smaller size. Also, many current apps don't even use that style of buttons anymore. That's what I was referring to. When you're used to seeing buttons that are smaller (Pages) or a different style (Mail, Safari, etc.), Entourage's default buttons are quite jarring.

It is good that they are customizable. Just to note, however, that my opinions I've given so far are just first impressions of the software.

Well I guess anyone could just select "use small size" if it's a standard cocoa toolbar.

I agree the interface still is a bit hideous, but it's a MASSIVE improvement from E2004. Have you started that app lately, it makes me sick just looking at it. I had to use it full time as my mail client for the last year, and while I don't anymore, if I still had to I'd be happy to use that over 2004 any day.

[Art Vandelay]

Yeah, but I like that look better. Aesthetically, to me at least, Entourage made me cringe when I first launched it. The iWork apps have an elegance that, overall, Office 2008 just doesn't have.

Now, does anyone have any feedback on Exchange support?

[Cold Warrior]

Entourage 2008 seems to have a display bug. All my Sent messages, either in a local Sent folder, on an IMAP folder, or filed away in another folder of older sent messages, have a text wrapping problem -- they don't. There's just one line of text that goes on forever, never wrapping to any display -- preview right, preview pane bottom, or opened in its own window. This bug persists despite font and font size changes, a database compact & rebuild, and other preferences changes I've tried.

[Chuckit]

A display bug? In a beta? WTF, Microshaft?!

[Cold Warrior]

I'm not surprised about bugs. Just one like this one. I'll try dumping some caches and maybe Entourage prefs to see if that gets me anywhere.

[Horsepoo!!!]

I'm amused it took MS so long to finally adopt a more Mac-like interface.

It's too late though.

[pcryan5]

<>Microsoft Office 2008 BETA leaked onto the web.


Don't forget corporate customers can ask for a copy of the beta. Release 7 is the most current one I got. It's pretty old mind you - 9/19/2007

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by pcryan5 

t's pretty old mind you - 9/19/2007

That's the one I've seen out in the wild.

[Art Vandelay]

Interesting... The CD image components are dated 9/19 but the installed components are dated 9/23.

[Cold Warrior]

Get Info on Word gives the version (12), but also annotated 070919.

[Art Vandelay]

Just saw that but the creation date says 9/23. Interesting why something built on one day has a creation day in the future.

I know you can modify the creation dates but why would they?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Just like in the Mac OS X Leopard thread I think you're overreacting. Microsoft Office 2008's UI is nothing like a poorly coded Java application, nor does it feel like one when actually using it. But shall we keep this thread about Office 2008 as a whole instead of picking out one aspect and turning it into yet another endless GUI debate?

I use Office daily. It doesn't feel like a Mac app. And your personal jab was certainly not warrented.

Office is KNOWN to have a dodgy GUI. Even in Windows.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

But then everybody would be accusing MS of copying Apple

Not I. I would be accusing them of following the guidelines. I am not saying it should look JUST LIKE THAT. But it should look and work like a real Mac application. And it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

Still, they should change it to fit today's Tiger/Leopard Aqua appearance instead of Puma/Cheetah's.

Exactly my feelings. And will they update all the elements once Unified hits? I doubt it.

[rickey939]

Where is InfoPath and Groove?

</kidding>

[Kevin]

Does this version squirt?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Not I. I would be accusing them of following the guidelines. I am not saying it should look JUST LIKE THAT. But it should look and work like a real Mac application. And it doesn't.

I know *you* wouldn't, but you know that some very vocal people would.

Though, I've never understood this "look and work like a Mac application" stuff. Perhaps it's because I jump back-and-forth between MacOS and Windows frequently over the course of the day.

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Does this version squirt?

I really hope not!

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I use Office daily. It doesn't feel like a Mac app. And your personal jab was certainly not warrented.

Office is KNOWN to have a dodgy GUI. Even in Windows..

I seriously doubt you've been using Microsoft Office 2008 on your work on a daily basis. Next to that I'm not claiming that it's interface is the example of a picture perfect Mac OS X application, in fact I believe I stated once or twice that the interface isn't really there yet. However, it's simply nothing like a poorly coded JAVA-application like Limewire or whatever you compared it with. So yeah, in that aspect I definitely think you were overreacting.

[TETENAL]

I think Office 2008 looks really nice, fwiw.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Though, I've never understood this "look and work like a Mac application" stuff. Perhaps it's because I jump back-and-forth between MacOS and Windows frequently over the course of the day.

Thats probably the reason. I don't do this. So I am used to the way certain apps should look, or behave.

Originally Posted by .Neo 

I seriously doubt you've been using Microsoft Office 2008 on your work on a daily basis.

Well it's a good thing I never said I did. I simply said Office. And it does feel like a JAVA application ported to OS X. I have to use it for a few things at least once a day. Though If I wanted to use the 2008 beta on my machine every day I am sure I could. If I was an idiot.

Next to that I'm not claiming that it's interface is the example of a picture perfect Mac OS X application, in fact I believe I stated once or twice that the interface isn't really there yet. However, it's simply nothing like a poorly coded JAVA-application like Limewire or whatever you compared it with. So yeah, in that aspect I definitely think you were overreacting.

Well I assure you I am not. I am not saying it's as BAD as one. I said it REMINDS me like one. Outstretched GUI buttons.. colors Apple doesn't even use it's it's own GUI. Weird GUI redrawing.. All of these things also happen in Office as well as Java applications. Is it JUST AS BAD as a Java application? Of course not.But I don't think I've ever said that.

And I am not just talking about the Mac version. The Window's version of Office is a horrible GUI nightmare as well. It's wear the term "bloatware" more than likely originated.



They really need to throw more buttons and shelves on that thing.

[Peter]

nah, Office 2007 is really nice once you've used it for a bit.

Office 2008 Mac is nice though, been using it for a few weeks - very impressed. Super fast.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Peter 

nah, Office 2007 is really nice once you've used it for a bit.

I've used it the past year on the old lady's computer. I guess if you go about and do TONS of menu customizations and such it would be decent and not bloated looking. Again, I have always thought that a GUI that doesn't distract or take up more space than the content was always the best kind.

Office 2008 Mac is nice though, been using it for a few weeks - very impressed. Super fast.

I am just gonna stick with the Office I have now. If customers start giving me files that wont work with it, I will just stop supporting any type of office file. The only reason I have it installed now is because MS gave use a free copy. Along with a sticker that says "We support MS publisher" The sticker made it to the lining of the wastebasket.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Well it's a good thing I never said I did. I simply said Office. And it does feel like a JAVA application ported to OS X. I have to use it for a few things at least once a day. Though If I wanted to use the 2008 beta on my machine every day I am sure I could. If I was an idiot.

I honestly don't get why you keep involving all these different Microsoft Office versions when this thread is clearly about version 2008.

Microsoft Office 2008 has been build from the ground up using Xcode in order to make it an Universal Binary. Which effectively means you can't give a valid opinion about how the applications feel and act before you actually used it.

[Peter]

the old offices felt like a port. 2008 feels like an actual Apple application - im very impressed.

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by Peter 

the old offices felt like a port. 2008 feels like an actual Apple application - im very impressed.

Agreed. Very satisfied with 2008 thus far.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

It's wear the term "bloatware" more than likely originated.

Honestly? Wear? You come across as a seemingly intelligent person who should know the difference between "wear" and "where". These words are, in fact, not interchangeable. Just FYI...

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

Honestly? Wear? You come across as a seemingly intelligent person who should know the difference between "wear" and "where". These words are, in fact, not interchangeable. Just FYI...

They are homonyms, however. It might not have been a mistake...or it may have been...I dunno. But these kinds of mistakes commonly happen when someone's distracted or typing fast.

Anyways, as for the ribbon UI. It's a nice way to remove clutter but still takes up a lot of room and is difficult to navigate quickly. I much prefer the context-sensitive format bar which lists the commonly used functions. The more advanced features remain tucked away in the Inspector window instead of cluttering the document window with rarely-used options.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

Honestly? Wear? You come across as a seemingly intelligent person who should know the difference between "wear" and "where". These words are, in fact, not interchangeable. Just FYI...

You'd think an intelligent person would know when not to bring a semantics argument into a discussion where it doesn't belong.

Originally Posted by .Neo 

I honestly don't get why you keep involving all these different Microsoft Office versions when this thread is clearly about version 2008.

I was just showing the history of MS's non-standard GUI. And I agree with 2008 it has came as closest as it ever has came to looking like Apple designed it. But it's still off. And I am not the only person that is/has complained about it.

Microsoft Office 2008 has been build from the ground up using Xcode in order to make it an Universal Binary. Which effectively means you can't give a valid opinion about how the applications feel and act before you actually used it.

When I say "Feel" i mean it reminds me of working with one. I guess that is why so many Mac users don't mind Open Office. It's not like MSs GUI is that much better.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

When I say "Feel" i mean it reminds me of working with one.

Oh right... Of course.

I just noticed that in Preferences you can change the Elements Gallery to a more out-of-the-way grey tint. Unfortunately the Formatting Palette colors won't change with it. Which is a bit retarded, yet, Microsoft-like.

[Kevin]

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

You'd think an intelligent person would know when not to bring a semantics argument into a discussion where it doesn't belong.

"Semantics" refers to the meanings of words and phrases, not spellings and sounds. (Now THAT is arguing semantics!)

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Microsoft Office 2008 has been build from the ground up using Xcode in order to make it an Universal Binary.

Can you elaborate? Are you saying that since they used Xcode that it must be 100% native, OS X app?

[TETENAL]

Carbon apps are 100% native, so the previous two versions of Office have been 100% native already. I doubt there has ever been any Java or x86 emulation (like in Corel Draw) in Office.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Oh right... Of course.

I just noticed that in Preferences you can change the Elements Gallery to a more out-of-the-way grey tint. Unfortunately the Formatting Palette colors won't change with it. Which is a bit retarded, yet, Microsoft-like.

Ah now that the image and text have "loaded"

And that looks better, I will agree. I think my complaints are just over-all MS design. I've never liked it. The default Office has toolbars that take up half the screen real estate.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Microsoft Office 2008 has been build from the ground up using Xcode in order to make it an Universal Binary.

I'm a little skeptical of this claim. Actually, I'm a lot skeptical. I'm sure it was written with Xcode, but I'll be floored if it's actually a ground-up rewrite. Where did you hear that?

[Art Vandelay]

Let me clarify... I'm talking about the GUI. Every release of Office, including 2008 so far, has not had a 100% native GUI. You can see in Office 2008 that it has a PowerPlant framework. If you look at the preferences for Entourage 2008, you can clearly see that it isn't using a native Aqua GUI. It's using a GUI that tries to look like Aqua, but misses the mark much like Java Aqua apps do.

So, what I was trying to clarify from .Neo is if he meant that since they used Xcode that it must be a 100% native Xcode project. I highly doubt that it is and probably isn't feasible for MS to ever make it that way anytime soon. They probably did the bare minimum in porting over their PowerPlant CodeWarrior project into Xcode.

[TETENAL]

PowerPlant applications are 100% native Mac applications. Even when they use Constructor instead of Interface Builder, since PowerPlant creates native Carbon widgets from Constructor resources. At no point in time could you ever tell whether an app was PowerPlant or MacApp or something else by just looking at it. You have to look inside the binary to tell.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I'm a little skeptical of this claim. Actually, I'm a lot skeptical. I'm sure it was written with Xcode, but I'll be floored if it's actually a ground-up rewrite. Where did you hear that?

It was somewhere on their blog. I think their exact words were something along the lines "We build it from the ground up". Supposedly they were at a very high stage of developing the next office suite until Apple decided to go Intel. They had to rewrite enormous amounts of code in Xcode in order to get it Universal, hence the delays.

In any case developing software using Xcode doesn't per se equal that an application uses Mac OS X' Quartz to render the interface, nor does it guarentee that the developer will create an interface using the familiar styles and layouts. Which could explain the oddities like the preferences windows.

But yeah I also doubt they did a complete rewrite.

PS
The developers have their own Blog, maybe we can bring some of these strange UI elements to their attention by posting some comments there?

Mac Mojo

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

Now, does anyone have any feedback on Exchange support?

I'll answer my own question.

After playing with it briefly today at work, I don't really notice any improvements. Public Folders has actually gotten worse. In 2004, we could see some of the contents. In 2008, all folders are empty.

Mail 3.0 does a better job with Public Folders so far.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

PowerPlant applications are 100% native Mac applications. Even when they use Constructor instead of Interface Builder, since PowerPlant creates native Carbon widgets from Constructor resources. At no point in time could you ever tell whether an app was PowerPlant or MacApp or something else by just looking at it. You have to look inside the binary to tell.

Then they've got something else going on in their programs. The preferences for Entourage 2008 are not using native widgets. The size, shape and text is off.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

Then they've got something else going on in their programs. The preferences for Entourage 2008 are not using native widgets. The size, shape and text is off.

I'm sure that if you wanted to you could recreate a Windows application using Xcode, without a single visible Aqua element.