[quandarry]

Originally posted by quandarry:
well the picture links don't seem to work anymore...at least for me, so i haven't seen anything yet.

nevermind

[BuD-TheDude]

I heavily second the idea of handing out beta's to developers. There is no better way to gain inroads into a community than handing some out for free for a 'taste' that leads to an addiction of sorts..

Perhaps this would also settle down some of those pessimistic nay-sayers here that seem to be flooding these boards.

Anyway, best of luck with Xtender. I really hope this eventually sees the light of day.. Themeing for OSX seems to be an emerging nitch, this product should be welcomed warmly despite some comments.

Lastly, could this be used in conjunction with SS? Use Xtender to change some functionality all while using a slick SS theme?

PS
quandarry, I just downloaded the pdf's without a hitch.

[goMac]

Originally posted by BuD-TheDude:
Lastly, could this be used in conjunction with SS? Use Xtender to change some functionality all while using a slick SS theme?

Yes, that would also work.

[decursive]

there is absolutely, utterly, no better way of hurting the theming community than competing file formats.

[superfula]

Originally posted by decursive:
there is absolutely, utterly, no better way of hurting the theming community than competing file formats.

Yeah it sure has hurt the windows theme community...windowblinds and msstyle

Competition is always good.

[goMac]

Originally posted by decursive:
there is absolutely, utterly, no better way of hurting the theming community than competing file formats.

You forget GUIKit is a closed format. Even if we made a decision we wanted to support it we couldn't write a parser. If anything it would require paying a fee to Unsanity.

[codywalton]

Originally posted by superfula:
Yeah it sure has hurt the windows theme community...windowblinds and msstyle

Competition is always good.

Not in this case.

Doesn't matter. As soon as SS 1.5 is out no one will give this app a second look.

[NetworkShadow]

I'd build the text color and other capabilities that SS has into Xtender if I were you, it sure would help you compete with SS, since you seem to be set on out doing SS.

Originally posted by codywalton:
Not in this case.

Doesn't matter. As soon as SS 1.5 is out no one will give this app a second look.

That may be true...

[goMac]

Originally posted by codywalton:
Not in this case.

Doesn't matter. As soon as SS 1.5 is out no one will give this app a second look.

I don't think SS 1.5 can compete with this app unless they write in an APE API...

[olorin15]

Originally posted by goMac:
I don't think SS 1.5 can compete with this app unless they write in an APE API...

For now there is no such thing as "this app" ... sorry goMac - I really want to believe this is all going to come true, but until there's some tangible evidence, I'd stay away from comments like that - especially since you have not seen SS 1.5, which I believe 100% WILL see light of day soon. Just release the damn thing and let the people judge for themselves.

[Link]

Ooh Nice. I can hardly wait to see the finished product.

PS: I hate unsanity.. so there

[OwlBoy]

Nice to see SS will have competition.

Kaleidoscope never had that.

Good luck with the project, remember to listen to feedback!

We will see what happens.

-Owl

[NetworkShadow]

Originally posted by Link:
Ooh Nice. I can hardly wait to see the finished product.

PS: I hate unsanity.. so there

You'll pay $15 for Xtender, that "does" about the same thing as SS, but so far has no proof that it will even deliver? The developer has lost a lot of credibility in the past too... (not that I'll hold that against them if this really lives up to what it's being made out to be) But you won't pay $20 for SS that is already out, does what it's suposed to do, (with themes too) and Omega will be exclusively for (on Mac)? A $5 difference is enough to hate Unsanity for?

[Lord Sith]

Granted.......... They (Carpe Stellarem) are notorious for hyping software that never makes it to see the light of day, but, the accusations of them blatantly ripping off Unsanity are ridiculous! Let's review:

WindowShadeX - Basically a return of OS 9 window functions (with a few extra OS X features) and the MIP function, which was originally a developer tool in a very early/test version of the OS X "Dock"

Labels X - Another OS 9 feature improved upon and brought to OS X.

Fruit Menu - Again, OS 9 "Apple Menu" functionality brought to OS X with contextual menu support and improved features.

XSounds - OS 9 soundsets brought to OS X.

ShapeShifter/Mighty Mouse - Kaleidoscope for OS X.

Come on, No one is ripping anybody off. Unsanity simply brought the most missed and used functions of OS 9 and brought them to OS X, nothing earth shattering or original there, but they do it better than any other program that offers the same features (of which there are very few) and at a fair price and with legendary customer support.

I own all of the aforementioned software and would be lost without it. Unsanity do make incredible hacks and worth paying for, but I feel you would very naive in making the statement that Carpe Stelleram are ripping off Unsanity. A more accurate statement would be that they (Carpe Stelleram AND Unsanity) are trying to rip off Kaleidoscope!!

And really, who doesn't want that?

[Patcarla]

Well put lord sith..

[goMac]

Originally posted by Lord Sith:
Granted.......... They (Carpe Stellarem) are notorious for hyping software that never makes it to see the light of day, but, the accusations of them blatantly ripping off Unsanity are ridiculous! Let's review:

WindowShadeX - Basically a return of OS 9 window functions (with a few extra OS X features) and the MIP function, which was originally a developer tool in a very early/test version of the OS X "Dock"

Labels X - Another OS 9 feature improved upon and brought to OS X.

Fruit Menu - Again, OS 9 "Apple Menu" functionality brought to OS X with contextual menu support and improved features.

XSounds - OS 9 soundsets brought to OS X.

ShapeShifter/Mighty Mouse - Kaleidoscope for OS X.

Come on, No one is ripping anybody off. Unsanity simply brought the most missed and used functions of OS 9 and brought them to OS X, nothing earth shattering or original there, but they do it better than any other program that offers the same features (of which there are very few) and at a fair price and with legendary customer support.

I own all of the aforementioned software and would be lost without it. Unsanity do make incredible hacks and worth paying for, but I feel you would very naive in making the statement that Carpe Stelleram are ripping off Unsanity. A more accurate statement would be that they (Carpe Stelleram AND Unsanity) are trying to rip off Kaleidoscope!!

And really, who doesn't want that?

To clarify, we're not doing Labels or having a user setup-able FruitMenu clone. This isn't Michael Dell syndrome.

[haley]

I'm with whoever said they'd give this the benefit of the doubt for now but just wait it out.

I'd just like to know how stable this will be in terms of the OS and normal functioning. SS boasts of the fact it doesn't change the resources themselves; what will your offer be?

[goMac]

Originally posted by haley:
I'm with whoever said they'd give this the benefit of the doubt for now but just wait it out.

I'd just like to know how stable this will be in terms of the OS and normal functioning. SS boasts of the fact it doesn't change the resources themselves; what will your offer be?

We don't replace the resources either and we do everything I mentioned. Xtender doesn't modify the hard drive.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by goMac:
As I stated March by the latest. The engine is done right now, so it really won't take too long. I'm just allowing time for betas and any un-forseen problems.

You know, going by your previous record, I doubt many people will believe you. I really wonder why you didn't just announce this when it was out.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by goMac:
What we see as an advantage is that Xtender has an open API. Anybody can code mods for it for free, commercial or non-commerical. APE only offers the free "APE Lite" SDK which can only affect the application using it.

Right, like that free mach_inject.[hc] written by someone else that is floating around now? Way to "innovate". In fact, I'm betting you're just using someone else's code.

In addition Xtender integrates themes with mods, allowing you to change the behavior of the interface in addition to changing the look. Think of it like having the ability to include APE modules as part of a theme.

Oh, good plan, because themers are all coders now.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by goMac:
I don't think SS 1.5 can compete with this app unless they write in an APE API...

That's right, because it's not like SS heavily uses APE or anything.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Maflynn:
Ok umm, so your changing (by adding code) applications. That is, my MS Excel will have code "injected" into it to behave a certain way, menu wise or visually. Is that correct?

This is the way that APE and similar things work, and there is no other way of achieving the things that they do. SS does this.

[Maflynn]

Angus_D
The ape issue has already been resolved. I , like others were unaware of the similarity of APE and the Injector Engine.

Mike

[phillryu]

Originally posted by haley:
I'm with whoever said they'd give this the benefit of the doubt for now but just wait it out.

I'd just like to know how stable this will be in terms of the OS and normal functioning. SS boasts of the fact it doesn't change the resources themselves; what will your offer be?

This is in effect Xtender's claim. Take everything that APE and all of its applications do, and apply it to Xtender.

[goMac]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
That's right, because it's not like SS heavily uses APE or anything.

SS would have to open the APE API for users of SS, which would cause problems because the APE API is licensed. It costs about $1000 for commercial developers. Xtender allows you access the injector engine via a theme given themes far more control.

We are actually using someone elses code if you want to know. As I mentioned before we're using the Zaius API. It's been modified for our own purposes but we are going to contribute back any fixes/features to the project. This should also make it pretty easy to make Xtender mods stand alone.

We don't see themer's doing coding, this has already been addressed. We see others doing coding mod plug ins, and themers going through and including ones they like within a theme. I'm sure themers could even request mods.

[dws]

Originally posted by goMac:
We are actually using someone elses code if you want to know. As I mentioned before we're using the Zaius API. It's been modified for our own purposes but we are going to contribute back any fixes/features to the project.

It's a good thing that you're going to be contribute back to the Zaius project; which exists at an alpha stage, has its latest (and only) source download dated Mar 21 2003 (49Kb), and has no Sourceforge forum activity to speak of. It certainly appears that this UNIX daemon could use some contributions; though my UNIX skills are not sufficient to properly evaluate this simple daemon.

For you to be to the point of taking Zaius to where it can actually be used for something real is a wonderful testament to the beauty of Sourceforge. Somebody (Ben Chess, in this example) comes up with a little bit of code; and then somebody else takes it and uses it to create an actual useable program out of it. Wonderful!

On the surface, it would appear that Zaius is just another example (among many on Sourceforce) of a bit of code that goes absolutely nowhere. An idea that never got beyond the alpha stages of development. It's great that you guys took the ball and ran with it.

One odd thing, though. If you are already to the point that you are announcing an imminent product based on Zaius; one would think that you would have already contributed back to it. Zaius forms the backbone upon which your entire scheme (pun intended!) rests. Obviously, you must have completed any modifications/extensions to Zaius by now; and thoroughly tested them.

I searched the net for any buzz about Zaius. The only comment I found was from a (self-proclaimed) Unix geek who wrote, "Things you shouldn't be able to do with OS X. Zaius just blows my mind. And to think that screwing with other processes is accepted practice in mac-land... Must... not... use... Zaius... for... Evil..."

My Unix skills are not great, but in looking at the code I can easily see why the guy referenced above found it to be so scary. In its Mar2003 version, you could use the calls to overwrite just about anything you wanted; including stuff that would really mess with programs and trash OS X in the process. I'm sure that the Xtender team has taken Zaius to new heights of error-checking, of course; or they wouldn't be this close to a shipping product. It will be fascinating to see what Zaius looks like when the contributions from the Xtender team are added to Sourceforge.

It's important for everyone to remember that (in the beginning) the idea of APE was also scary, but the good people at Unsanity have proven that they were able to make it safe.

[iOliverC]

I don't understand how goMac keeps his nerve, sure he's made a few promises he couldn't keep, but that doesn't mean you have to jump on his back every time he previews a piece of software. Sheesh, give the guy a break.

[goMac]

Originally posted by dws:
One odd thing, though. If you are already to the point that you are announcing an imminent product based on Zaius; one would think that you would have already contributed back to it. Zaius forms the backbone upon which your entire scheme (pun intended!) rests. Obviously, you must have completed any modifications/extensions to Zaius by now; and thoroughly tested them.

You don't understand our engine coder. He waits until he is sure everything is work, fully optimized, and then systematically comments the whole thing.

Its the same reason I don't actually have a copy of anything.... He made me wait a day while he commented his pxm parsing code...

It will probably be a couple more weeks until code is uploaded. Thats the timeline I've been told to have a basic beta working (that will probably be distributing).

The engine guy has been working on ThemeKit a lot recently so I'll get him back on track today. Apparently SOME resources still use cluts.... grrrr....

[Groovy]

Originally posted by olorin15:
For now there is no such thing as "this app" ... sorry goMac - I really want to believe this is all going to come true, but until there's some tangible evidence, I'd stay away from comments like that - especially since you have not seen SS 1.5, which I believe 100% WILL see light of day soon. Just release the damn thing and let the people judge for themselves.

and there is no SS 1.5 either until we can download it and see just how amazing
so many here claim it will be. 1.0 was supposed to be good and it was not. 1.1
not that good either. As it stands now SS is the first product from unsanity i tried
that truly feels like a hack (to me you may feel differently) and doesn't work well
enough to use day to day on production boxes and (for me) not good enough even
on my home macs. Is it getting better? Yes. Is it ready for prime time? IMHO, no.

Anyway , we shall see when 1.5 comes out. Me i am glad to see competition. At the
very least SS should be a better product with Xtender breathing down its neck

[Groovy]

Originally posted by codywalton:
Doesn't matter. As soon as SS 1.5 is out no one will give this app a second look.

wrong i will. I use what is best for me. What works best for me.
Those that do not at least take a look at all their options are only
hurting themselves.

Have you used the final release of 1.5? You act as if you have.
Please tell me what is so great about 1.5 which you appear to be
using that is so WOW?

I await your reply with all the details on 1.5 both features and the
bugs that will need to be fixed in 1.5.1 and 1.6

[codywalton]

Originally posted by Groovy:
wrong i will. I use what is best for me. What works best for me.
Those that do not at least take a look at all their options are only
hurting themselves.

Have you used the final release of 1.5? You act as if you have.
Please tell me what is so great about 1.5 which you appear to be
using that is so WOW?

I await your reply with all the details on 1.5 both features and the
bugs that will need to be fixed in 1.5.1 and 1.6

No I personally haven't tried it. But some of the major themers have. Specifically BBX. He says it will rock your world, and I believe him.

Unsanity has a damn near perfect record of putting out great working apps, at low prices, that perform exactly as they have promised. I don't feel the same about Duality, and now Xtender. That's just me, but I have the impression that lots of others feel the same way.

[quandarry]

Originally posted by codywalton:
No I personally haven't tried it. But some of the major themers have. Specifically BBX. He says it will rock your world, and I believe him.

sh!t...grrrr

show me one ****ing theme bbx has done for os x and i will eat my keyboard!

if you're gonna spout be accurate.

also people will use what they think is best for them not what you think is the be all and end all.

[justinp]

Originally posted by quandarry:
show me one ****ing theme bbx has done for os x and i will eat my keyboard!

He hasn't. However, he is developing a massive theme for it right now; I'm pretty sure that qualifies him to comment. There is also the fact that he made numerous OS 9 themes (I don't care for any of them, but they exist nonetheless.) And don't forget the other work he has done, aside from OS theming.

I'm quite positive SS 1.5 will be great. Not only because it will continue to advance OS X theming, but also because it should be closely followed by Omega, which I'm sure we all can hardly wait to try.

On the topic of Xtender though, it seems as though it will be a great product as well, should it live up to what goMac has put forth.

I fear, though, that the major themers will look past this product even if it does end up being as great as it sounds. Even if CS includes some standard code which themers can inject, (goMac, you guys really need to do this; you've got an uphill battle as it is and how many themers want to code [or get someone else to] their own modules for this? None.) many themers have already thrown their lot in with SS and you're going to have to fight to get them out or at least develop their themes for your standard as well.

I wish the best of luck to Xtender. Competition is good, and you're off to a great start if you can offer (essentially) many of Unsanity's haxies in one theming application for less than the price of SS. However, without support you've got nothing. Joe's AquaMod, no matter how impressive the code injection, isn't going to cut it. So good luck getting it.

[goMac]

Originally posted by justinp:
(goMac, you guys really need to do this; you've got an uphill battle as it is and how many themers want to code [or get someone else to] their own modules for this? None.)

Gee.... I remember a time when everyone distributed lone rsrc files. I thought it might be a good idea if everyone distributed files in something called a "package". I even built a program that let you put these files together so you could theme lots of things.

Boy, that sure failed.

[quandarry]

Originally posted by justinp:
He hasn't. However, he is developing a massive theme for it right now; I'm pretty sure that qualifies him to comment. There is also the fact that he made numerous OS 9 themes (I don't care for any of them, but they exist nonetheless.) And don't forget the other work he has done, aside from OS theming.

I'm quite positive SS 1.5 will be great. Not only because it will continue to advance OS X theming, but also because it should be closely followed by Omega, which I'm sure we all can hardly wait to try.

On the topic of Xtender though, it seems as though it will be a great product as well, should it live up to what goMac has put forth.

I fear, though, that the major themers will look past this product even if it does end up being as great as it sounds. Even if CS includes some standard code which themers can inject, (goMac, you guys really need to do this; you've got an uphill battle as it is and how many themers want to code [or get someone else to] their own modules for this? None.) many themers have already thrown their lot in with SS and you're going to have to fight to get them out or at least develop their themes for your standard as well.

I wish the best of luck to Xtender. Competition is good, and you're off to a great start if you can offer (essentially) many of Unsanity's haxies in one theming application for less than the price of SS. However, without support you've got nothing. Joe's AquaMod, no matter how impressive the code injection, isn't going to cut it. So good luck getting it.

i agree with everything you said, but nothing that codywalton said.

[justinp]

I don't believe simply providing themers with the ability will pull them away from SS, which is already established. Many people have switched to the guiKit format and I doubt many of them are going to want to switch so soon (also consider they may have bought SS, they really aren't going to want to in those cases).

You may offer the ability to inject code. But without a starting point to actually showcase the feature, the possibilities, I doubt you'll see much codebase support (let alone expansion).

[goMac]

We don't think theme developers will pull away because of Xtender alone. After all, Xtender needs a pretty good theme editor to go with, don't you think? Maybe we'll see some of it next week with the site launch... hmm...

[justinp]

Bah!

[wibs]

Originally posted by goMac:
You don't understand our engine coder. He waits until he is sure everything is work, fully optimized, and then systematically comments the whole thing.

you missed the last part of his process. it's when he tells you to tell the forum that development on the project has been abandoned to work on The Next Big Thing.

some say people here jump on your back every time you hype something. i say just show me something. anything. and no, duality (aka crash.app) doesn't count.

what i find particularly funny about this whole thing is that in your last thread everyone said that they wouldn't hate you if you just didn't hype everything absurdly early and without anything of any substance to back it up... and then you promptly respond with more hype with nothing to back it up. seriously, hire yourself a PR department, and then tell it to never say anything at all, because your reputation has already been so shot to sh*t that it won't help any.

if your project ever sees the light of day i will gladly eat my words. my money is on that never happening.

[quandarry]

Originally posted by wibs:
if your project ever sees the light of day i will gladly eat my words. my money is on that never happening.

how about your keyboard with posted pics.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by quandarry:
sh!t...grrrr

show me one ****ing theme bbx has done for os x and i will eat my keyboard!

here we go again...

[Hobeaux]

[/B]

ROTFLMAO

[goMac]

Originally posted by wibs:
you missed the last part of his process. it's when he tells you to tell the forum that development on the project has been abandoned to work on The Next Big Thing.

Monolith and Xtender were both being developed at the same time. It was intended that we would release Duality 4.5 which would be Monolith based, and Duality 5 which would be based on portions of both. In Duality 5, Xtender would handle WindowShade and sound sets. Monolith would handle themes. However, we found a way to run themes through Xtender. At that point we decided further development on Monolith was not a good idea and that Monolith was rather complicated compared to Xtender (or Thing-a-ma-roo as we called it at the time). We've honestly been working on Xtender since last year, but never intended to rout themes through it. After that point we decided we would release Duality 4.5, based on Xtender, which would only do themes, and follow that with a full Xtender release. We didn't want to hit users with two pay upgrades back to back so we scrapped 4.5 (which already had a lot fo work in it).

So theres the history of Xtender in a nutshell. It 's not really a replacement project for Monolith, it was more of a companion project.

[cloudaj]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
here we go again...

oh man, thats priceless...good one.

[quandarry]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
here we go again...

ouch,,,thru the heart!



just tryin' to get peoples facts straight.
nothing to do with anything you're working on, your past work or your talent (which i am truely dazzled by).

i'm happy with where i'm at with KROMEX

[quandarry]

Originally posted by cloudaj:
oh man, thats priceless...good one.

too bad you lack the talent for a good bit of wit...

place rolleyes here ----->

[ambush]

Originally posted by goMac:
We don't think theme developers will pull away because of Xtender alone. After all, Xtender needs a pretty good theme editor to go with, don't you think? Maybe we'll see some of it next week with the site launch... hmm...

you certainly need to grow up a bit, and stop boasting like a fool.

what you sound like is an arrogant snotty teenager willing to change to world... and you always fail miserably

now shut your big mouth and release that **** already!

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by quandarry:
ouch,,,thru the heart!
just tryin' to get peoples facts straight

You just seem too eager to jump in and bring up the same thing every time, though - often enough that it's starting to feel like some sort of personal vendetta

[olorin15]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
You just seem too eager to jump in and bring up the same thing every time, though - often enough that it's starting to feel like some sort of personal vendetta

quandarry likes getting personal right off the bat ... he's quick with direct insults. I don't think it's really personal, i think that's the way he is i guess he gets a little too excited about these arguments ... I do too sometimes, so I can sort of understand

[SilentEchoes]

Originally posted by TheSpaz:

I support guiKits and Shape Shifter!

GoMac... get a life.

Yay! I fully support a closed format to! Lets force WMV down everyones throat while we are at it...

And ambush you really need to get of Unsanity's dick.

Sounds like a good ol' APE ripoff to me...

Right because all of Unsanitys ideas are original and have never appeared ANYWHERE before like say in OS 9?

This competition will be good for the consumers. As one I fully support the idea, BS or not.

you certainly need to grow up a bit, and stop boasting like a fool.

So at what point in his "growing up" does he get to resort to calling other people names or insulting them over an internet forum? Yeah thats what I thought.

what you sound like is an arrogant snotty teenager

I was thinking the same thing about you...


Anyways I like the idea and I hope it happens. You got my support.