[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Randman

Hardly. Do you know anything about them?

Heck, in Islam, Jesus is even revered as the No. 2 prophet behind Mohd.

Even though the Quran mixes up the whole Mother of Jesus/Sister of Aaron thing?

An Imperfection in the Perfect Quran

By Kimble K. Smith

The Quran is the perfect word of Allah and cannot have errors. Written by Allah, its perfection has existed since time began.

There is a passage in the Quran that describes the mother of Jesus of Nazareth as the sister of Aaron. It goes like this: “At length she brought (the babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: ‘O Mary! Truly a strange thing has thou brought! O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste!’" (Sura 19:27-28).

But Aaron, the brother of Moses, lived and died centuries before Mary, the mother of Jesus was born; and Aaron’s sister was Miriam, not Mary. In the Arabic language, the word for Mary and Miriam is the same word, (Maryam) perhaps the cause of this mistake. It is an error that an Arab of the 7th Century might make, to confuse Mary with Miriam, but not a mistake that the all-knowing Allah would make.

The above error was discovered during Muhammad’s lifetime, and it was brought to his attention. He had an answer for it.

His explanation went as follows: “The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them.” (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book on General Behaviour (Kitable Al-Adab), Book 025, Number 5326).

There is no way that Muhammad could have known that this was the reason that Mary was called “sister of Aaron” in the Quran unless Allah told him. Mary is never addressed anywhere (and for any reason) as “the sister of Aaron” in any of the Jewish or Christian scriptures. So either Allah gave this explanation to Muhammad as the reason why Mary was addressed in the Quran as “the sister of Aaron,” or Muhammad lied.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No. I know Christianity to be the correct way.

Just like a Muslim knows Islam is the correct way, and some one like me who thinks neither is right, Christians and Muslims are both fools

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Athens

Just like a Muslim knows Islam is the correct way, and some one like me who thinks neither is right, Christians and Muslims are both fools

No, the true fool is someone who doesn't get any religion at all.
I may believe the muslims to be misled but at least they've tried to get themselves a faith.

Let's go with the old chestnut:

If I, as a Christian, die and find that you're right and there isn't a Heaven then there's no harm done - I'll just rot in the box same as you.
If you, as an atheist, die and find that I'm right and there is a Hell, you're in serious trouble.

Who's the fool?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Can a Muslim be true friends with non-Muslims?

Yes, as I have many Muslim friends.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No, the true fool is someone who doesn't get any religion at all.
I may believe the muslims to be misled but at least they've tried to get themselves a faith.

Let's go with the old chestnut:

If I, as a Christian, die and find that you're right and there isn't a Heaven then there's no harm done - I'll just rot in the box same as you.
If you, as an atheist, die and find that I'm right and there is a Hell, you're in serious trouble.

Who's the fool?

Religion is MAN MADE, a product of man to explain god and that which can not be explained. Religion is not holly but in the name of holly.

And by your old chestnut, if you are Christian and find your wrong that Islam is the true faith your stuck in hell all the same. But hey you at least tried a faith non the less

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Athens

Religion is MAN MADE, a product of man to explain god and that which can not be explained.

No. It's real. God is more real to me than you are. If you spent as much time investigating God as you do trying to figure out how to save the planet, you'd see the reality too.

Originally Posted by Athens

And by your old chestnut, if you are Christian and find your wrong that Islam is the true faith your stuck in hell all the same. But hey you at least tried a faith non the less

In the islamic faith, doing what is right and believing in God are enough to get you into Heaven (if God is merciful). Seeing as the Christian faith incorporates these items, there should be no problem.
Doesn't quite work the other way around though.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No. It's real. God is more real to me than you are. If you spent as much time investigating God as you do trying to figure out how to save the planet, you'd see the reality too.



In the islamic faith, doing what is right and believing in God are enough to get you into Heaven (if God is merciful). Seeing as the Christian faith incorporates these items, there should be no problem.
Doesn't quite work the other way around though.

Again you are associating religion with god, that is the difference between you and I. I believe in God I don’t believe in religion. God is real to me, religion is just a man made empire.

[Athens]

Hehe this is a good quote

Are all Muslims radicals?

No. Although Shi'ites tend to be more radical, the average Muslim is like the average Christian. They know enough to call themselves Muslims, but basically they are materialistic, want a good job, and hope to live a good comfortable life.

[Athens]

Do Muslims understand what Christianity is all about?


The average Muslim around the world has a tremendous misunderstanding of Christianity. This is largely due to fact that their only understanding of Christianity comes from movies, music and television shows such as "Baywatch," "Madonna," Rated-R films, etc. Because they believe America is a Christian nation, they assume everything that comes out of America is Christian.

How do they view Christianity?

Muslims think Christians believe in three gods: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Mother (Mary). They believe that Christians and Jews have changed the Bible; therefore, although the Quran acknowledges the Gospel of Christ, the Torah of Moses and the Psalms of David, the existing copies can't be trusted. In any case, they are all superseded by the Quran. Because of pornography from the West and the Western media, they equate Christianity with free sex, drugs, alcohol, rape, divorce ... all the evils of the West. This misconception confirms their belief that Islam is the true and final religion for all mankind.



What do Muslims believe in?


"Islam has seven fundamental beliefs that every Muslim must accept as a part of his/her religion (the Emanul Mufassil, or Faith Listed in Detail). Every Muslim learns this formula as a part of his/her religious training." *

"Belief in God" (who, in Arabic, is named "Allah")
"Belief in the angels" (both good and bad)
"Belief in the revealed Books of God
Belief in God's many prophets" (including Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, and other Christians and Jews are familiar with)
"Accepting that there will be a Last Day
Belief in the divine measurement of human affairs
Belief in life after death"


What do Muslims think about Jesus?


All Muslims believe Jesus was born of a virgin and that he was a great prophet--yet he was only a man. They believe he was sent by God to help people obey God. Islam claims Jesus spoke as a baby, healed the sick, and raised the dead. The Quran refers to Jesus as the breath of God, the spirit of God, the life of God and the word of God. Muslims do not think Jesus died on the cross. They believe that right before he was to be killed, God took him up to heaven and someone else (probably Judas) replaced him on the cross. They trust that Jesus will return to the earth again to usher in the final judgment from God and confirm that Islam is the true and final religion for all mankind. (Yes, Muslims believe in the second coming of Christ!)

As a works-oriented religion, Islam requires that its adherents earn their way to heaven by performing the five pillars of the faith.

Say the confession of faith. A Muslim must confess, "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is the prophet of God."
Pray. Muslims are supposed to pray five times a day: shortly before sunrise, mid-morning, noon, mid-afternoon, and after sunset.
Give alms. Muslims are to give about 2.5 percent of their wealth.
Fast during Ramadan. For one lunar month, from sunrise to sunset, Muslims are not to allow anything to pass down their throat. (Theoretically, a good Muslim would even spit out his or her saliva.) Then from sunset to sunrise, they are permitted to eat as little or as much as they want. This is their way of developing discipline and relating to the poor. (Travelers, young children and pregnant or nursing mothers do not need to keep the fast.)
Make a pilgrimage to Mecca. Every Muslim who is financially able is supposed to travel to the birthplace of Islam once in his or her lifetime.
>> What is Ramadan?

But do Muslims have any guarantee of salvation?

Muslims have no guarantee of being saved. They believe that all their works will be accounted for and that on Judgment Day, if your bad works outweigh your good works, you are going to go to hell. But if your good works outweigh your bad works, you'll probably go to heaven. (Since God is all-powerful, they concede that He may do with you as He pleases, even if you have been very righteous. They hope He won't be having a "bad day" at Judgment.) A third possibility is that you could go to hell and burn your sins off for a while and then be allowed into heaven. The only way Muslims can be guaranteed to go to heaven is through "jihad." Although it is often translated "holy war," "jihad" literally means "exerting force for God." One could be in "jihad" by writing a book about Islam, or by sharing his faith to bring others to Islam, or by physically fighting for the cause of Islam. If a Muslim dies in "jihad," he is guaranteed to go to heaven.


Do Muslims understand what Christianity is all about?


The average Muslim around the world has a tremendous misunderstanding of Christianity. This is largely due to fact that their only understanding of Christianity comes from movies, music and television shows such as "Baywatch," "Madonna," Rated-R films, etc. Because they believe America is a Christian nation, they assume everything that comes out of America is Christian.

How do they view Christianity?

Muslims think Christians believe in three gods: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Mother (Mary). They believe that Christians and Jews have changed the Bible; therefore, although the Quran acknowledges the Gospel of Christ, the Torah of Moses and the Psalms of David, the existing copies can't be trusted. In any case, they are all superseded by the Quran. Because of pornography from the West and the Western media, they equate Christianity with free sex, drugs, alcohol, rape, divorce ... all the evils of the West. This misconception confirms their belief that Islam is the true and final religion for all mankind.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Athens

I believe in God I don’t believe in religion.

religion |rɪˌlɪdʒ(ə)n|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God

You must be mistaking "religion" and "organised religion".

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Doofy

You must be mistaking "religion" and "organised religion".

how nice of you to point out a man made definition of religion. Again man made is the key word. God is god, religion is man.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Athens

The average Muslim around the world has a tremendous misunderstanding of Christianity. This is largely due to fact that their only understanding of Christianity comes from movies, music and television shows such as "Baywatch," "Madonna," Rated-R films, etc. Because they believe America is a Christian nation, they assume everything that comes out of America is Christian.

Correct, when applied to muslims from islamic countries. Because in their own countries islam is so pervasive, they don't realise that "the West" is largely secular.

Related interesting thing: Most islamic-country muslims don't understand why Christians celebrate the birth of Christ with alcohol. Because alcohol is forbidden in their religion, they don't understand that it's not forbidden in Christianity.

Originally Posted by Athens

Muslims think Christians believe in three gods: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Mother (Mary).

The never-wrong koran screwed up a bit there, didn't it? Probably because the Christians that mohammed had contact with showed images of the Virgin Mary. We have to remember that he was supposed to be illiterate, so had to copy what he saw and heard, not what he read.

Originally Posted by Athens

All Muslims believe Jesus was born of a virgin

What possible logical reason could there be for that?

Originally Posted by Athens

and that he was a great prophet--yet he was only a man. They believe he was sent by God to help people obey God. Islam claims Jesus spoke as a baby, healed the sick, and raised the dead. The Quran refers to Jesus as the breath of God, the spirit of God, the life of God and the word of God. Muslims do not think Jesus died on the cross. They believe that right before he was to be killed, God took him up to heaven and someone else (probably Judas) replaced him on the cross. They trust that Jesus will return to the earth again to usher in the final judgment from God and confirm that Islam is the true and final religion for all mankind. (Yes, Muslims believe in the second coming of Christ!)

An exact copy but with the important bits left out.

Originally Posted by Athens

The only way Muslims can be guaranteed to go to heaven is through "jihad." Although it is often translated "holy war," "jihad" literally means "exerting force for God." One could be in "jihad" by writing a book about Islam, or by sharing his faith to bring others to Islam, or by physically fighting for the cause of Islam. If a Muslim dies in "jihad," he is guaranteed to go to heaven.

Hence all the suicide bombers.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Athens

how nice of you to point out a man made definition of religion.

And the definition you're using was made by a kangaroo?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Doofy

And the definition you're using was made by a kangaroo?

God is not religion, God is God. Religion is man.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Athens

Do Muslims understand what Christianity is all about?


The average Muslim around the world has a tremendous misunderstanding of Christianity. This is largely due to fact that their only understanding of Christianity comes from movies, music and television shows such as "Baywatch," "Madonna," Rated-R films, etc. Because they believe America is a Christian nation, they assume everything that comes out of America is Christian.

SHould have added this too

Do Christians understand what Islam is all about?


The average Christian around the world has a tremendous misunderstanding of Islam. This is largely due to fact that their only understanding of Islam comes from movies, music and television shows such as "CNN," etc. Because they believe Middle East is a Islamic nation, they assume everything that comes out of the Middle East is Islamic.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Athens

God is not religion, God is God. Religion is man.

Belief in God (or any other higher being) is religion, whether organised or not. Let's not marklar the marklar definitions of the English marklar just to suit your failing marklar.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Can a Muslim be true friends with non-Muslims?

Of course.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Belief in God (or any other higher being) is religion, whether organised or not. Let's not marklar the marklar definitions of the English marklar just to suit your failing marklar.

So your saying god created the english language? And the meanings of words? Do you have this proof.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Athens

So your saying god created the english language? And the meanings of words? Do you have this proof.

1) We are conversing in English.
2) English has a set of definitions for the words used therein.
3) The word "religion" means "a belief in God".

[Athens]

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=religion

S: (n) religion, faith, religious belief (a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny) "he lost his faith but not his morality"
S: (n) religion, faith, organized religion (an institution to express belief in a divine power) "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


I dont see in either of those sites, religion = god. Looked up a paper dictionary I have too, God is no where to be found for religion.

[Randman]

Discussing religion with a born-again veggie Pentecostal is doomed from the start, methinks.

[rambo47]

Originally Posted by Randman

Discussing religion with a born-again veggie Pentecostal is doomed from the start, methinks.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Athens

I dont see in either of those sites, religion = god. Looked up a paper dictionary I have too, God is no where to be found for religion.

Dude. Go re-read the thread.

Nobody is saying religion = God.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Athens

Yes, as I have many Muslim friends.

It is good they are friendly toward you if you are friendly to them, if what VW has already posted represents Quranic teachings. But here's some MORE things I didn't know which suggests a different interpretation than VW's.

The following is excerpted from 'Answers to common questions to new Muslims' (Published 1993 by the Islamic Assembly of North America):

Mixing with non-Muslims Removes One' s Religious Pride and Jealousy

Question: I live in an area in which most of the residents are from our brethren Christians. We eat and drink with some of them. Is my prayer not valid and my living with them not allowed?

Answer: Before responding to the question, I would like to comment on something that I hope you said unintentionally. This is your statement, "Our brethren Christians". There is never any brotherhood between Muslims and Christians. Brotherhood must be based on faith. As Allah says: "Verily the believers are but a brotherhood" (al-Hujurat 49:10). If blood relationships come to an end because of differences in religion, how can brotherhood be confirmed for people of different religions and no blood relations?

Allah says about Noah and his son: "[Noah said,] 'O my Lord, verily my son is of my family! And certainly your promise is true, and You are the Most Just Of the judges.' He [Allah] said, 'O Noah! Surely he is not of your family, his work is unrighteous"' (Hud 11 :45-46) There is never brotherhood between a believer and a disbeliever. In fact, it is obligatory upon the believer not to take a disbeliever as his close friend and ally. Allah says in the Quran, "O believers! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the Truth" (al-Mumtahana 60:1).

Who are those enemies of Allah? The enemies of Allah are the disbelievers. Allah says, "Whoever is an enemy to Allah, His Angels, His Messengers, Gabriel and Michael, then verily, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers" (al-Baqara 2:98). Allah also says, "O Believers! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends and helpers. They are but friends to one another. And if any among you takes them as friends and allies, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah does not guide the wrongdoers" (al-Maida 5:51). Therefore, it is not permissible for a Muslim to describe any disbeliever as a brother - whatever type of disbeliever he is, be he Christian, Jew, Magian or atheist. Be aware, dear brother, of making such a statement.

Now as for the response to your question, I state : You should try to remain away from mixing with non-Muslims because mixing with them removes your religious zealousness and pride from your heart and may lead you to having love and compassion in your heart for them. Allah has stated, "You (O Muhammad) will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kin. For such He has written faith in their hearts and strengthened them with proofs from Himself And We will admit them to gardens through which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the party of Allah, Verily, it is the party of Allah that will be the successful." (al-Mujadalah 58:22).


A Disbeliever is not a Muslim' s Brother

Question: I live with a Christian who calls me his brother and we are like brethren, we eat and drink together. Is this kind of deed permissible?

Answer: A disbeliever is not a Muslim's brother. Allah has said, "Verily the believers are but brethren" (al-Hujurat 49:10). The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said, "A Muslim is a brother to a Muslim". A disbeliever, whether he be Jew, Christian, Magian, Socialist or whatever, is not a brother to a Muslim. It is not allowed to take him as a companion and close friend. However, if one eats with him sometime, without taking him as a companion, due to a general invitation or specific gathering, there is no harm in that. But to take him as a companion, close friend and dining associate, this is not allowed. Allah has cut off such ties of love, loyalty and friendship between Muslims and disbelievers. Allah says in His Noble Book, "Indeed, there is an excellent example for you in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, 'Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred forever - until you believe in Allah alone'" (al-Mumtahana 60:4).

Allah has also said, "You (O Muhammad) will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kin. For such He has written faith in their hearts and strengthened them with proofs from Himself And We will admit them to gardens through which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the party of Allah. Verily, it is the party of Allah that will be the successful" (al-Mujadalah 58:22)

Therefore, it is obligatory upon a Muslim to be free of the people of infidelity and to hate them for the sake of Allah. However, one must not harm them, hurt them or oppose them without justice and rights to do so, as long as they are not fighting us. At the same time, though, one does not take them as comrades or brothers. If one coincidentally eats with them at a general invitation or specific event, without companionship, loyalty or love for them, then there is no harm in that act. It is obligatory upon Muslims to deal with disbelievers in an Islamic fashion with proper behavior, as long as they are not fighting the Muslims. One must fulfill one's trusts to them, must not deceive them, must not betray them or lie to them. If there is a discussion or debate between them, one must argue with them in the best manner and be just with them in the dispute. This is in obedience to Allah's command, "And argue not with the People of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) unless it be in a way that is better, except with such of them as do wrong" (al-Ankabut 29 :46).

It is sanctioned for the Muslim to invite them to the good, to advise them and to be patient with them at the same time being neighborly and polite with them. This is so because Allah has stated, "lnvite to the way of your Lord with wisdom (of the Quran) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better" (al-Nahl 6: 25). Allah has also said, "Speak good to people" (al-Baqara 2:83). The Prophet (peace be upon him) has also said, .'The one who guides to good will have the same reward as the one who does that good". Actually, there are numerous verses and hadith with the same meaning.


The Ruling About Mixing with the Disbelievers

Question: What is the ruling concerning mixing with the disbelievers and being soft and gentle with them in hopes that they will embrace Islam?

Answer: There is no doubt that a Muslim is obliged to hate the enemies of Allah and be free of them. This was the way of the messengers and their followers. Allah says, "Indeed, there is an excellent example for you in Abraham and those with him. when they said to their people, 'Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred forever - until you believe in Allah alone"' (al-Mumtahana 60 :4). Allah has also said, "You (O Muhammad) will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kin. For such He has written faith in their hearts and strengthened them with proofs from Himself " (al-Mujadalah 58:22).

Based on these, a Muslim is not allowed to have love and compassion in his heart for the enemies of Allah who are in reality his own enemies. Allah has stated, "O believers! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the Truth". (al-Mumtahana 60: 1). But there is no harm for a Muslim treating them with kindness and gentleness in hopes that they become Muslim. This is a type of reconciling their hearts to Islam. However, if one despairs in their becoming Muslim, then one may treat them in the way that they may be treated. And this is dealt with in detail in the law books, in particular ibn al-Qayyim's Ahkam ahl al-Dhimmah.


The Ruling Concerning Having Love for the Disbelievers

Question: What is the ruling concerning having love for the disbelievers and preferring them to the Muslims?

Answer: There is no doubt that the one who loves the disbelievers more than he loves the believers is committing a great sin. It is obligatory upon him to love the Muslims and to love for them what he loves for himself. If he loves the enemies of Allah more than he loves Muslims this is very dangerous and forbidden. In fact, it is not even allowed to love them even if one loves them less than he loves the Muslims. Allah has stated, "You (O Muhammad) will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers, or their sons. or their brothers. or their kin. For such He has written faith in their hearts and strengthened them with proofs from Himself And We will admit them to gardens through which rivers flow. to dwell therein (forever). Allah is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the party of Allah. VeriIy. it is the party of Allah that will be the successful." (al-Mujadalah 58:22).

Allah has also said, "O believers! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends. showing affection towards them. while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the Truth" (al-Mumtahana 60: ). Furthermore, whoever praises them and prefers them over the Muslims in deeds and otherwise, then he has committed a sin and has not had proper thoughts about his brethren Muslims. And he has had good thoughts about those people who are not deserving of such thoughts. It is obligatory upon the believer to prefer Muslims over others in every aspect, in deeds and otherwise. If one finds shortcomings in Muslims. he must advise them. warn them and explained to them the wrong they are doing. Perhaps, Allah may guide them through his hands.'


Ruling Concerning Honoring a Disbeliever by Giving Him Wine

Question: Is it allowed for a Muslim to honor his non-Muslim friends by giving them food or drink that is forbidden in Islam?

Answer. Islam is the religion of forgiveness, easiness and simplicity. At the same time, though. it is a religion of justice. Generosity is an Islamic character. However, if the person is a disbeliever, then the ruling concerning that generosity differs depending on the intention of the person himself and depending on what he offers as an act of kindness. The intent could be legally sanctioned. If he wants to make some contact with the person until he invites him to Islam and rescues him from disbelief then that is a noble intention. One of the principles of Islamic law is that the means has the same ruling as the goal. If the goal is obligatory, then the means become obligatory. If the goal is forbidden, then the means are also forbidden. If there was no legally sanctioned goal behind the generosity and the person would not be harmed by not being kind, then it is permissible for him not to be so. However, it is not allowed to do acts of generosity or kindness with things that Allah has forbidden. such as pork or alcohol. By giving such items, the person has disobeyed Allah and obeyed them. He has preferred their rights over that of Allah. A Muslim must stick to his religion. In a non-Muslim land, he must openly demonstrate his applying Islam in order to be a caller to Islam in both word and action.


The Ruling Concerning Business Transactions with the Disbelievers

Question: Is it valid to have business transactions or trading with the disbelievers while we are aware that they are disbelievers? And, in particular, when we are in need of what they manufacture?

Answer. Allah willing, there is no harm in using what the disbelievers manufacture if there is some need to do so, as is what is happening these days as items, products, appliances and so forth are imported from non-Muslim countries. This need makes us come into agreements with them concerning price, amount and quality and how the items will be received and paid for [All of this is allowed.]'


Ruling Concerning Greeting a Disbeliever

Question: How shall we respond to a disbeliever if he greets us?

Answer: It is confirmed that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said. ."Do not be the first to greet a Jew or Christian with peace. And if you come across them in the walkway, force them to the edges." Muslim recorded this in his Sahih. He (peace be upon him) also said, .'If the People of the Book greet you with peace. say, 'Wa alaikum (and unto you).'" This was recorded by al-Bukhari and Muslim. The People of the Book are the Jews and Christians. The ruling concerning the other disbelievers is the same as the ruling of the Jews and Christians in this matter since there is no evidence to show otherwise. In general, one does not first greet a disbeliever. However, if he starts the greeting, then one must respond by our statement, "And upon you", in accord with the order from the Messenger (peace be upon him). There is no prohibition to say after that, something like, "How are you? How are your children?" Some of the scholars, including ibn Taimiya, has said that this is permissible. This is especially acceptable if there is some Islamically sanctioned reason for that, such as hoping the person will become Muslim or making him susceptible to your calling him to Islam. Allah has stated, "Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom (of the Quran) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better" (al-Nahl 16: 125). Allah has also said, ."And argue not with the People of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) unless it be in a way that is better, except with such of them as do wrong" (al-Ankabut 29:46).'


The Ruling Concerning a Gift from the Ad-hiya to non-Muslim Neighbors

Question : Does the non-Muslim neighbor have a portion of the adhiya or not?

Response: It is permissible for a Muslim to assist his non-Muslim neighbor by giving him some meat from his sacrificed animal. He may give it to them in order to soften their hearts and to fulfill the rights that neighbors have upon one another. This is so because there is no evidence prohibiting such an act and due to the generality of Allah's statement in the Quran, "Allah forbids you not to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity". (al-Mumtahanah 60:8). In fact, the Permanent Committee gave a ruling on this question. This is the text of their response:

Yes. it is allowed for us to give food to the disbelievers living under the Islamic state and wayfarers from the meat of the sacrificed animal. It is allowed to give to them on the basis of their poverty, blood relation, being a neighbor or to soften their hearts. The ritual act is the actual act of slaughtering which is an act of worship and getting closer to Allah. As for the meat of said animal, it is best for the person to consume one third of it himself and to give one-third of it as a gift to his relatives and neighbors and friends, and to give another third away in charity to the poor. If the shares are slightly off from those portions. there is no harm as the matter is a wide one and not strict. However, one should not give such meat to a harbi (someone who is fighting against the Muslim state) be cause in their case, the obligation is to suppress and weaken them and not assist or strengthen them with charity. In fact, that is the ruling with respect to all forms of voluntary charity, based on the generality of the verse in the Quran, "Allah forbids you not to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity" (al-Mumtahanah 60 :8). Furthermore, the Prophet (peace be upon him) ordered Asma bint Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with her) to help her mother out with money although she was a polytheist.


Giving Voluntary Charity to non-Muslims:

Question: Is it permissible to give charity to non-Muslims?

Response: It is not permissible to give zakat to the non-Muslims. Furthermore, it is disliked to give voluntary charity to the non-Muslims because, in so doing, you are supporting them in their disbelief Allah says in the Quran, "But do not help one another in sin and transgression" (al-Maidah 5:2). However, if you hope for someone to be Muslim. then there is no harm in giving him some charity in the hope that it might encourage him to become Muslim. If you fear that someone is about to die, it is permissible to save him from death in order to let him know about the beauty of lslam.


Observing or Recognizing the Holidays of the Jews and Christians is not Allowed

Question: some Muslims recognize the holidays of the Jews and Christians. When a Jewish or Christian holiday comes, they close the Islamic schools because of those holidays. However, on Muslim holidays, they do not close the schools. They argue that by observing the Christian and Jewish holidays, those people might be led to Islam. We would like you to clarify this matter.

Answer: First, the practice is to publicly display the signs of Islam among Muslims and to avoid anything that goes against the guidance of the Messenger (peace be upon him). It is confirmed that he said, ."You should follow my way (sunnah) and the way of the rightly guided successors..."

Second, it is not allowed for Muslims to participate with the disbelievers in their holidays or to show joy and happiness for such occasions. Similarly, one cannot cancel work for such an occasion. This is true whether the occasion be a religious or secular holiday. To do so would be a forbidden imitation of the enemies of Allah. It is confirmed that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said, "Whoever imitates a people is one of them."

We advise you to refer to the book lqtidha al-Sirat al-Mustaqeem by Shaikh al-lslam ibn Taimiya as it is very beneficial concerning this matter.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Randman

Discussing religion with a born-again veggie Pentecostal is doomed from the start, methinks.

Only in the way that discussing the Earth's flatness was a doomed effort with Christopher Columbus after he returned from the New World.

Through hard work and some sacrifice he came to understand some truths the others didn't.

[mojo2]

But it is good that Islam has a policy regarding the proper conduct towards slaves.

(4) Revenge and account to be taken for cruel treatment to slaves and servants.

Abu Hurairah (R.A.) relates that he heard the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) say "Whoever beats the slave or servant unjustly, revenge will be taken from him on the Day of Judgement."

Abu Mas'ood (R.A.) narrates that "Once I was beating my slave when I heard a voice behind - (saying)" Oh Abu Mas'ood! Remember that Allah has a greater power and authority over you than you have over the poor slave" I turned around and saw that it was the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.) whereupon I said "Oh Prophet of Allah - he is now free for the sake of Allah (I have set him free)." The Prophet (S.A.W.) observed that "Be informed that had you not done so (i.e. set him free) you would be consumed in the fire of Hell!"

(5) Loyalty of slaves and servants to their masters

Whilst enjoining the masters to be fair and generous in their treatment of the slaves and servants, The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) also emphasized upon the slaves and servants their duty to remain faithful to their masters.
The Prophet (S.A.W.) is reported to have said, "it is a matter of great success and good fortune for a slave or servant that Allah raises him from this world (gives him death) in a state that he is a worshipper of the Creator and he is loyal to his master."

In another hadeeth related by abdullah ibn Umar (R.A.), the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) said, "When a slave or servant is faithful to his master and also worships his Creator, he is deserving of a double reward (in the hereafter)."

The principal feature of The Holy Prophet's teachings is that he urges each class and individual to fulfil the rights of others with a full sense of responsibility and consider it a source of good fortune in both the worlds. He, thus, enjoins upon the masters to fear Allah in respect of their slaves and servants, (by treating them fairly and kindly) and he enjoins upon the slaves and servants to be loyal and sincere to their masters.

It's in the section marked, "General Conduct."

General Conduct
General teaching of the Prophet(S.AW.)
Kind and merciful treatment
Policy of forgiveness
Revenge and account to be taken for cruel treatment
Loyality of slaves and servants to their masters
Behaviour of the old and young towards each other

Between Muslims
Rights of Islamic Brotherhood
Islamic Unity enlikened to a strong building
Some special rights and claims
Defending the honour of a Muslim
A Muslim is like a mirror unto a fellow Muslim
Mutual hatred, jealousy, back-biting etc. is strictly forbidden

Animal Rights
Duties towards Mankind in General, and to all other created beings
Kindness to animals
Severity of cruelty to creatures

Epilogue

Return to Islam.tc

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Q...a00000046.aspx

[Randman]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Only in the way that discussing the Earth's flatness was a doomed effort with Christopher Columbus after he returned from the New World.

That is a modern-day myth. Many writers of the days (and most sailors) knew that a flat-earth was an impossibility. That said, there are still people in this day and age who belong to the flat-Earth Society.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No, the true fool is someone who doesn't get any religion at all.
I may believe the muslims to be misled but at least they've tried to get themselves a faith.

Let's go with the old chestnut:

If I, as a Christian, die and find that you're right and there isn't a Heaven then there's no harm done - I'll just rot in the box same as you.
If you, as an atheist, die and find that I'm right and there is a Hell, you're in serious trouble.

Who's the fool?

And you have just explained why so many people are religious . . . It is the fear of the after-life, of what comes after death, that drives them to be religious. There's nothing wrong with that, Sherwin. I greatly appreciate your willingness to share your cautious, practical faith with us. I think so many in this forum have the same motivations as you for being religious yet are not courageous enough to come forward and admit the truth of their motivations. I thank you for your honesty and sincerity. Cheers!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

And you have just explained why so many people are religious . . . It is the fear of the after-life, of what comes after death, that drives them to be religious. There's nothing wrong with that, Sherwin. I greatly appreciate your willingness to share your cautious, practical faith with us. I think so many in this forum have the same motivations as you for being religious yet are not courageous enough to come forward and admit the truth of their motivations. I thank you for your honesty and sincerity. Cheers!

Let's not be mistaken. Hedging my bets wasn't the reason why I became Christian. The fact that it became apparent to me that it is the truth was what did it.

So let's not attempt to twist things for your own ends, eh?

[dcmacdaddy]

dp.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Let's not be mistaken. Hedging my bets wasn't the reason why I became Christian. The fact that it became apparent to me that it is the truth was what did it.

So let's not attempt to twist things for your own ends, eh?

No twisting going on here. Until this post your reasons for why you embraced Christianity have never been clearly and succintly articulated. Now they have. Thanks!

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

No twisting going on here. Until this post your reasons for why you embraced Christianity have never been clearly and succintly articulated. Now they have. Thanks!

I am glad you came to that realization. My reasons for becoming a Christian are the EXACT same as his.

Originally Posted by Doofy

...that it is the truth was what did it...

VERY well said. And just in case you are truly as dense as you appear: by "it" he means Christ's sacrifice as our saving grace.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I am glad you came to that realization. My reasons for becoming a Christian are the EXACT same as his. VERY well said. And just in case you are truly as dense as you appear: by "it" he means Christ's sacrifice as our saving grace.

As some one that seems to be more level headed about religion, do you feel that it is possible that Islam is also could be as true as Christianity, or that there is a God but religion is not the path. I know you believe in Christianity, but my question is, do you also accept that Christianity could also not be the true and only one.

[Randman]

Funny that most of the religious-minded folk on this site spend so much time and energy knocking others' views and beliefs rather than trying to promote positive things.

Religious zealots all have a case of "my god has a bigger schlong that your god. And I'm going to get a bonus from him instead of passing away by saying you go God.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Athens

I know you believe in Christianity, but my question is, do you also accept that Christianity could also not be the true and only one.

No.

John 14:6 (NIV) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Randman

That is a modern-day myth. Many writers of the days (and most sailors) knew that a flat-earth was an impossibility. That said, there are still people in this day and age who belong to the flat-Earth Society.

So noted. Thanks.

Maybe I should have cited Galileo's discovery that the Universe did not revolve around the Earth? But of course my analogies only invite further opportunities to veer from the important job of discussing Islam's intent to be THE compulsory "religion of choice" of every person on Earth.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Athens

Just like a Muslim knows Islam is the correct way, and some one like me who thinks neither is right, Christians and Muslims are both fools

Athens, you will have to give up that kind of thinking once Islam achieves it's goal. You will have to choose to follow the Quran or you will be forced to do so under pain of severe punishment in your very existence. Sorry. No other option.

But, look at the bright side, you are charged with maintaining "a regular contact with men of faith and knowledge so as to benefit from their company."

That can't be ALL bad.

Caring for the moral and religious status of neighbours

The foregoing sections dealt with the material welfare of neighbours - paying regard to their needs and feelings etc., hereunder is an explanation of the caring for their moral and religious welfare, which is also a right of the neighbour.

On one occassion the Prophet (S.A.W.) is reported to have said "What has happened to those, whom Allah has favoured with the understanding of faith and religious knowledge, and they do nothing by way of teaching it to, their neighbours (who are in need of it) or creating an awareness in them?. They neither give good counsel, nor discharge the duty of enjoining what is good and lawful, and forbidding what is bad and prohibiting. And what has happened to the uninformed ones that they make no effort to learn from their neighbours?

By Allah it is the duty of those who possess the knowledge to impart it to their neighbours (who are wanting in it) - through good counsel and by enjoining what is lawful and forbidding what is prohibited. In the same manner it is the duty of the ignorant and uninformed to acquire the knowledge from their neighbours (who are learned) and to take advice from them - otherwise, (if neither party does its duty) a severe punishment will befall them in their very existence."

The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) has thus enjoined upon the people of all localities and regions, who possess the understanding of faith and religious knowledge, to impart it to those living in the neighbourhood and to work for their moral and spiritual instruction and improvement. On the other hand he has charged those who are lacking in this field to maintain a regular contact with men of faith and knowledge so as to benefit from their company.

Unfortunately, due to the neglect of this hadeeth and its likes, a vast majority of Muslims lack (are wanting in) religious knowledge and attachment to Allah and His Messenger (S.A.W.).

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Q...ul%20treatment

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Randman

Funny that most of the religious-minded folk on this site spend so much time and energy knocking others' views and beliefs rather than trying to promote positive things.

Nobody from the religious-minded camp is knocking others' views. We're simply stating and defending our own. You're surely not trying to knock our views with the above statement, are you? That'd be doing exactly what you're accusing us of, wouldn't it?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Athens, you will have to give up that kind of thinking once Islam achieves it's goal. You will have to choose to follow the Quran or you will be forced to do so under pain of severe punishment in your very existence. Sorry. No other option.

But, look at the bright side, you are charged with maintaining "a regular contact with men of faith and knowledge so as to benefit from their company."

That can't be ALL bad.



http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Q...ul%20treatment

Thinking what way, that both is wrong?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Nobody from the religious-minded camp is knocking others' views. We're simply stating and defending our own. You're surely not trying to knock our views with the above statement, are you? That'd be doing exactly what you're accusing us of, wouldn't it?

Im sorry but yes you have been knocking down other views, some where up there you said Islam is just a bad copy of Christianity, thats knocking down. And on another point, you said, yourself said that believing in god is religion, no its not.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Athens

Im sorry but yes you have been knocking down other views, some where up there you said Islam is just a bad copy of Christianity, thats knocking down.

No. I stated that Islam was a copy of Christianity (fact) - I didn't say it was a bad one. To all intents and purposes, it's a pretty good one - it got its intended job done, didn't it?

Originally Posted by Athens

And on another point, you said, yourself said that believing in god is religion, no its not.

Yes it is. The definition of "religion" is "a belief in God". This is how "religion" is defined in the dictionary. Argue with that all you like but you'd be wrong.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Railroader

No.

..John 14:6...

Good that you quoted that verse. Because it shows that Muslims will "meet our Father" as well.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No. I stated that Islam was a copy of Christianity (fact)

In the same way as Christianity is a copy of Judaism.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

In the same way as Christianity is a copy of Judaism.

No.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No.

Why not?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Good that you quoted that verse. Because it shows that Muslims will "meet our Father" as well.

No. The quoted verse means "the only way to the Father is to accept and believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins". Which you guys don't believe.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No. The quoted verse means "the only way to the Father is to accept and believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins". Which you guys don't believe.

Or to believe in Jesus (pbuh) and follow his teachings. But then, I know Christians are more stuck on Jesus' (pbuh) death than life.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Why not?

It's an extension. Stuff added for the benefit of gentiles, nothing removed. Islam isn't an extension as it's removed key points, which makes it a copy.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Or to believe in Jesus (pbuh) and follow his teachings. But then, I know Christians are more stuck on Jesus' (pbuh) death than life.

Jesus' "death" was the entire point of Him being here.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

It's an extension. Stuff added for the benefit of gentiles, nothing removed. Islam isn't an extension as it's removed key points, which makes it a copy.

OK, mhmmm. Yup.


btw, did Jesus (pbuh) ever say that he was the last prophet/messenger and that his message was the last message from God?