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Gul Banana · Jul 2, 2002, 09:01 PM

If you had read the thread, you would know that, and would see that the only viable solution that has been posted (As opposed to 30+ posts saying "This isn't really a problem") was to use cocoAspell. Which works perfectly

colour color colour whee!
wait, not perfectly. Argh. cocoAspell still thinks "color" is spelt correctly, even thought it lets me type "colour" with no redlining.. let me try a few things
civilisation civilization
Once again, neither of them is underlined. Hmm. This isn't really much better than the "Add to Dictionary" "solution". Hanging out for Jaguar I am:/
gordongle
Actually, I'm starting to suspect I didn't install it properly. Surely "gordongle" is not correct spelling? correct korrect correkt. Definitely not installed properly.
And yet, I have the service in ~/Library/Services, the preference pane in ~/Library/PreferencePanes, the dictionary set to British English and Enabled, it set to load at startup, yadda yadda... according to ps, cocoaAspell is running. Has anybody else had this problem?

undotwa · Jul 2, 2002, 09:38 PM

I don't see how whining will make it come any faster. We already know it's coming in Jaguar, so why bother whining?

Seriously, both us British English people and Americans are really acting like babies...

cpt kangarooski · Jul 3, 2002, 02:26 AM

And what I find very humorous about all this is that there were some very interesting design choices made in the 80's as the Mac and Lisa were being developed that were intended to support internationalization. Resource forks, for example. (permitting translators to change strings, etc. in ResEdit w/o having to know how to recompile the software)

It's pretty clear though that Apple's been negligent. The amount of work it takes for proper internationalization -- especially given that it's been done before -- is fairly low. Interns or temps with the requisite knowledge, or at least the ability to look it up from Apple's existing records could do this.

The solutions being offered by the apologists here though are just half-assed. Most countries, if not all, have pretty stable positions on things like paper sizes, units of measurement, time and date formats, languages, etc. Just selecting your country off of a list ought to be sufficient to take care of the defaults in 99.44% of cases, with the individual settings available for tweaking.

As for the dictionaries -- which could really do to be supplemented with definitions, thesauruses, grammars, style manuals, etc. -- I'd personally like to see some extensibility here. A standard U.S. English dictionary is fine for me a lot of the time, but having a Black's and an ALWD or Bluebook cite checker available as supplemental services would really kick ass.

JKT · Jul 3, 2002, 04:31 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by asxless:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JKT:
The most irritating aspect to the arguments in this thread is not that these settings are impossible to have, it is that they are all there in the system and Apple simply hasn't bothered to make them change to UK settings (or whatever) by default at initial set-up and also then makes them impossible to change without resorting to hacks. Call it a bug if you like, but I would say it justs represents a lack of appreciation on Apple's part for its international users (more than 50% of its customers, btw).<hr /></blockquote>NO. The most irritaitng aspect of the arguments in this thread is the presumtion that these internationalization bugs are any more of an indiaction of a "lack of appreciation on Apple's part for its international users", than ANY OTHER BUG in OS X demonstrates a lack of appreciation for the effected market segment (e.g. MIA PowerBook/iBook specific Energy Saver features or MIA shared USB printer support, etc.)

Get a grip. These internationalization bugs are BUGS like many others in OS X 10.1.5. Luckily there ARE workarounds for these bugs. Use them and quit ranting about it.

asxless in iLand<hr /></blockquote>Well, I would argue that there is a world of difference between switching on something* that is already there in the system (e.g. the date and A4 issues are solved by changing two strings in two .plists) and having to code an entirely new solution (e.g. power management and USB printer sharing). Apple has released ten revisions to OSX since 10.0... would it really have been that hard to solve the date and A4 issues at the least? Anyway, as things go it is an irritation at the most and not the end of the world...

(*or enabling them to be switched on by the end user without having to resort to third party hacks).

FWIW, Apple has been pretty bad in respect to international users since long before OS X was ever conceived. OS X is a big step in the right direction at least... roll on Jaguar. Looking forward to it.

JKT · Jul 3, 2002, 04:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gul Banana:
If you had read the thread, you would know that, and would see that the only viable solution that has been posted (As opposed to 30+ posts saying "This isn't really a problem") was to use cocoAspell. Which works perfectly

colour color colour whee!
wait, not perfectly. Argh. cocoAspell still thinks "color" is spelt correctly, even thought it lets me type "colour" with no redlining.. let me try a few things
civilisation civilization
Once again, neither of them is underlined. Hmm. This isn't really much better than the "Add to Dictionary" "solution". Hanging out for Jaguar I am:/
gordongle
Actually, I'm starting to suspect I didn't install it properly. Surely "gordongle" is not correct spelling? correct korrect correkt. Definitely not installed properly.
And yet, I have the service in ~/Library/Services, the preference pane in ~/Library/PreferencePanes, the dictionary set to British English and Enabled, it set to load at startup, yadda yadda... according to ps, cocoaAspell is running. Has anybody else had this problem?<hr /></blockquote>You've probably worked this out yourself already, but sometimes an App will not recognise Services. Did you load it at login by any chance? If you did I would guess that the app launched itself before Services kicked in (it has happened to me a few times with apps launched at login). Just quit the app and relaunch it. Services should start working again. If not logout and back in again.

Mediaman_12 · Jul 3, 2002, 05:42 AM

The other solution to the Dictionary thing (that is solved in 10.2 anyway) is to have other dictionarys (not the language settings for the menus etc) available for download, this way Apple would keep from 'bulking up' eveyones systems with dictionarys thay would never use (I would allmost naver use a German dictionary, for example) So why should it sit there taking up MB's of space on my HD.
With a 'Download ditionary' option somewere (in the 'International' pref pane perhaps), any user could install or remove any dictionary as neaded.

TiDual · Jul 3, 2002, 06:16 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by asxless:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TiDual:
You honestly believe that there are more OS X machines in the US/Canada than in the rest of the world (i.e. A4 users) combined. Europe alone is a bigger market for Apple. Please don't perpetuate the American stereotype ...<hr /></blockquote>Maybe everyone should check a few published facts before they continue on this 'which market is bigger' tangent and perpetuating the 'Europe vs the US' stereotype.

Apple's most recent SEC <a href="http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=AAPL&script=800&layout=8" target="_blank">filing</a> shows...
[CODE]Net sales for geographic operating segments and Macintosh unit sales
by geographic segment and by product follow
(net sales in millions and Macintosh unit sales in thousands):

...

Note: In this financial breakdown the "Americas" includes Mexico and the Central & South American markets. Since these markets use both Letter and A4 size papers, they are not very useful in determining the size of the 'Letter vs A4' markets. In any case, the page size printer defaults issue is a BUG like many others in OS X 10.1.5 and should be fixed regardless of the size of the market segment.

asxless in iLand
<hr /></blockquote>Nice facts. I did try to find them and stand partially corrected ... though as you point out yourself, "Americas" stands for 2 continents, not just USA. Further, when other regions are included, the US is well below half of Apples market (since your figures show it as 50% when including all the Americas).

Bottom line, the original statement suggesting there are more OS X users in the US was false.

[ 07-03-2002, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: TiDual ]

JKT · Jul 3, 2002, 08:25 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
The other solution to the Dictionary thing (that is solved in 10.2 anyway) is to have other dictionarys (not the language settings for the menus etc) available for download, this way Apple would keep from 'bulking up' eveyones systems with dictionarys thay would never use (I would allmost naver use a German dictionary, for example) So why should it sit there taking up MB's of space on my HD.
With a 'Download ditionary' option somewere (in the 'International' pref pane perhaps), any user could install or remove any dictionary as neaded.<hr /></blockquote>This would be a nice touch (expandable dictionary options), but if e.g. I was German, I would resent having my dictionary treated as "other" and only available by download - it would have to be no dictionary installed and all only available by download which is just not sensible. However, if the OSX disk installer was practical, the German dictionary wouldn't get installed if the German localisation wasn't also installed, etc (and you can currently select to not have other language localisations installed, so...). Even better would be for the options for what is and what is not installed to be much broader than they currently are with 10.1.x.

asxless · Jul 3, 2002, 09:09 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TiDual:
Nice facts. I did try to find them and stand partially corrected ... though as you point out yourself, "Americas" stands for 2 continents, not just USA. Further, when other regions are included, the US is well below half of Apples market (since your figures show it as 50% when including all the Americas).

Bottom line, the original statement suggesting there are more OS X users in the US was false.<hr /></blockquote>I notice you did not quote/mention that "The Europe segment includes European countries as well as the Middle East and Africa", which the last time I checked, included 2 continents as well. Using all of the "Europe" figures combined with "Japan" and "Other" to compare to a discounted "Americas" based on the "2 continents" argument is a little misleading because one has to make assumptions about the size of the markets in Mexico and South America. At this point, the size of those markets are pure speculation.

Bottom line, the original statement suggesting there are more OS X users in the US was not directly addressed with these figures.

FWIW my orginal post was to point out that there is published factual information on 'market shares' that make your assertion that "Europe alone is a bigger market for Apple [than the USA/Canada market]." unlikely. But it is not proveable or disprovable with the figures from Apple's SEC filings, because Apple does not break down their financials that finely. Unless you have factual information about the size of Apple's 'European' and 'USA' markets, I suggest that the best we can do is compare the "Americas" and "Europe" (both covering 2 continents) just as Apple does.

asxless in iLand

[ 07-03-2002, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: asxless ]

dazzla · Jul 3, 2002, 09:23 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by undotwa:
I don't see how whining will make it come any faster. We already know it's coming in Jaguar, so why bother whining?

Seriously, both us British English people and Americans are really acting like babies...<hr /></blockquote>I asked here because I wasn't aware of the issue being resolved in Jaguar. Plus, I've now got he added benefit of cocoAspell until jaguar hits.

asxless · Jul 3, 2002, 09:30 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JKT:
Well, I would argue that there is a world of difference between switching on something* that is already there in the system (e.g. the date and A4 issues are solved by changing two strings in two .plists) and having to code an entirely new solution (e.g. power management and USB printer sharing). Apple has released ten revisions to OSX since 10.0... would it really have been that hard to solve the date and A4 issues at the least? Anyway, as things go it is an irritation at the most and not the end of the world...

(*or enabling them to be switched on by the end user without having to resort to third party hacks).

FWIW, Apple has been pretty bad in respect to international users since long before OS X was ever conceived. OS X is a big step in the right direction at least... roll on Jaguar. Looking forward to it.<hr /></blockquote>I agree about the relative difficulty of the some fixes compared to the specfic examples I gave but there are lots of simple fixes to the Finder that Apple has chosen not to implement (yet) as well (e.g. a menu item to sort icons by anything other than name, etc.). Apple seems to be focused on 'bigger things' and has neglected to fix lots of small and large bugs in OS X that would appear to have been easy fixes. Luckily many of the smaller things do have 3rd party freeware applications, like "A4 defualts", which cover for Apple's omissions.

Lets all hope our pet bugs are fixed and MIA functionality included in Jaguar.

asxless in iLand

JLL · Jul 3, 2002, 09:57 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by asxless:
I notice you did not quote/mention that "The Europe segment includes European countries as well as the Middle East and Africa", which the last time I checked, included 2 continents as well. So using all of the "Europe" figures to compare to a discounted "Americas" based on the "2 continents" argument is a little misleading. <hr /></blockquote>Huh? Do they speak US English in the Middle East or in Africa? No!

The "problem" with the Americas is that the number includes American speaking AND non American speaking Mac users.

The Europeas number - even if it includes the Middle East and Africa - is only non American speaking users.

JLL · Jul 3, 2002, 10:01 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by asxless:
I agree about the relative difficulty of the some fixes compared to the specfic examples I gave but there are lots of simple fixes to the Finder that Apple has chosen not to implement (yet) as well (e.g. a menu item to sort icons by anything other than name, etc.). Apple seems to be focused on 'bigger things' and has neglected to fix lots of small and large bugs in OS X that would appear to have been easy fixes. Luckily many of the smaller things do have 3rd party freeware applications, like "A4 defualts", which cover for Apple's omissions.

Lets all hope our pet bugs are fixed and MIA functionality included in Jaguar.

asxless in iLand<hr /></blockquote>The problem is that they have spent time actually designing the default paper size choice in a wrong way - it's not because they "are focused on bigger things".

It wouldn't have taken them longer to design it correctly in the first place.

But hopefully they will make it as in LaserWriter8 where you can save your default paper size in the Page Setup dialog - that way you can choose Letter in Denmark or A4 in the US if you want to.

seb2 · Jul 3, 2002, 10:29 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dazzla:
I asked here because I wasn't aware of the issue being resolved in Jaguar. Plus, I've now got he added benefit of cocoAspell until jaguar hits.<hr /></blockquote>agree, cocoaspell is quite nice. the only problem with it is that it doesn't allow me to add words to my custom dictionary with umlauts in them... i can't even add my own last name to my custom distionary which is kind of... sad.

[edit: typo]

[ 07-03-2002, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: seb2 ]

asxless · Jul 3, 2002, 11:08 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by asxless:
I notice you did not quote/mention that "The Europe segment includes European countries as well as the Middle East and Africa", which the last time I checked, included 2 continents as well. So using all of the "Europe" figures to compare to a discounted "Americas" based on the "2 continents" argument is a little misleading. <hr /></blockquote>Huh? Do they speak US English in the Middle East or in Africa? No!

The "problem" with the Americas is that the number includes American speaking AND non American speaking Mac users.

The Europeas number - even if it includes the Middle East and Africa - is only non American speaking users.<hr /></blockquote>The reply you clipped this from was about "market share" (as it said the part you did not quote) not about which languages are spoken in the various market segments.

asxless in iLand

asxless · Jul 3, 2002, 11:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLL:
The problem is that they have spent time actually designing the default paper size choice in a wrong way - it's not because they "are focused on bigger things".

It wouldn't have taken them longer to design it correctly in the first place.

But hopefully they will make it as in LaserWriter8 where you can save your default paper size in the Page Setup dialog - that way you can choose Letter in Denmark or A4 in the US if you want to.<hr /></blockquote>If you want to believe that Apple "spent time actually designing the default paper size choice", that's your prerogative.

I prefer to believe that the programmer that picked the default paper size simply chose the one appropriate for the closest printer knowing that more options would be added later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

asxless in iLand

asxless · Jul 3, 2002, 11:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by undotwa:
I don't see how whining will make it come any faster. We already know it's coming in Jaguar, so why bother whining?

Seriously, both us British English people and Americans are really acting like babies...<hr /></blockquote>I agree. And trying to discuss these OS X issues any further, without getting embroiled in the underlying 'USA vs the World' stuff, is a waste of time.

ciao - asxless

Oops, ciao was underlined. Maybe it needed another vowel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[ 07-03-2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: asxless ]

Sharky K. · Jul 3, 2002, 11:25 AM

I am using international english for the OS because I just like it. But I would like to set spelling to dutch and paper size at A4.

I have not yet seen these two options in OS X 10.2 pre-release. I hope they implement these two options.

Jan Van Boghout · Jul 3, 2002, 12:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sharky K.:
I am using international english for the OS because I just like it. But I would like to set spelling to dutch and paper size at A4.

I have not yet seen these two options in OS X 10.2 pre-release. I hope they implement these two options.<hr /></blockquote><img src="http://www.janvb.com/jaguar/printA4.jpg" alt=" - " />

<img src="http://www.janvb.com/jaguar/spellcheck.jpg" alt=" - " />

Sharky K. · Jul 3, 2002, 02:36 PM

does it remember system/application wide what dictonary you are using or do you have to reset it everytime on the right language

JLL · Jul 3, 2002, 03:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by asxless:
If you want to believe that Apple "spent time actually designing the default paper size choice", that's your prerogative.

I prefer to believe that the programmer that picked the default paper size simply chose the one appropriate for the closest printer knowing that more options would be added later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

asxless in iLand<hr /></blockquote>I told you how Mac OS X defines the default paper size.

It looks at the available localizations in an app. If I use Mac OS X in Danish and I run an app that has a Danish localization, it'll choose A4 as the default paper size.

But if the app doesn't have a Danish localization it looks at number two in your priority which for many Danes is English.

Unfortunately US English is the only English language available and Mac OS X chooses Letter as the default paper size in that app.

Had Apple made Mac OS X define the paper size according to the settings in International, it wouldn't be a problem - nomatter what localization you use in an app.

Christopher Ellis · Jul 3, 2002, 03:25 PM

As far as the market share is concerned, I would just like to point out one thing:

MOST OF THE WORLD WILL NOT USE ENGLISH AS THEIR DEFAULT IF THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE IS AVAILABLE.

So, despite the fact that British English is taught in German schools, they have set up their systems to use German (most likely), the same is no doubt true for every other language supported. Just because these people might speak and write British English, doesn't mean they even care or have a serious interest in whether or not British or American English is to be considered "International" in terms of Apple's English support.

So, just as it might not be fair to lump Central and South America into the "Americas" pot, it's probably not fair to include the majority of Europe/Asia into the "rest of the world" group.

asxless · Jul 3, 2002, 04:29 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLL:
I told you how Mac OS X defines the default paper size....<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for the clarification. I thought your previous post...
"Mac OS X looks at what your language priority is, and if British English (or any other A4 using country) is at the top it should use A4.

The problem is that applications only have one (1) English localiz(s)ation and that's US English - thus the use of Letter as default.

Designed correctly, Mac OS X should look at what your settings in International are when it comes to dates, times, paper sizes and so on and ignore the available localizations in the apps."
...was describing how you thought it should work (in the first sentence) not how it does work. It is clear now that OS X was designed to work this way.

Your previous post also points to an alternative that would solve more than the dates, times, paper sizes settings issue. If applications had more than "one (1) English localiz(s)ation" (i.e. a 'British English' localization) they could also provide support for a 'British English' dictionary if/when it becomes available.

In any case, I agree with one of your other points in a previous post, that it would be nice if Page Setup settings could be saved as they are in OS 9.x. That way I could use my US English localization when I am working outside the US and still set the default page size to A4 for the duration of the trip. It would also allow users to set page size/orientation by application (e.g. Graphics apps - Tabloid/B5, Word processing apps - Letter/A4 portrait, and Spreadsheet apps - Legal/A4 landscape).

ciao - asxless in iLand

Gul Banana · Jul 4, 2002, 01:27 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JKT:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gul Banana:
If you had read the thread, you would know that, and would see that the only viable solution that has been posted (As opposed to 30+ posts saying "This isn't really a problem") was to use cocoAspell. Which works perfectly

colour color colour whee!
wait, not perfectly. Argh. cocoAspell still thinks "color" is spelt correctly, even thought it lets me type "colour" with no redlining.. let me try a few things
civilisation civilization
Once again, neither of them is underlined. Hmm. This isn't really much better than the "Add to Dictionary" "solution". Hanging out for Jaguar I am:/
gordongle
Actually, I'm starting to suspect I didn't install it properly. Surely "gordongle" is not correct spelling? correct korrect correkt. Definitely not installed properly.
And yet, I have the service in ~/Library/Services, the preference pane in ~/Library/PreferencePanes, the dictionary set to British English and Enabled, it set to load at startup, yadda yadda... according to ps, cocoaAspell is running. Has anybody else had this problem?<hr /></blockquote>You've probably worked this out yourself already, but sometimes an App will not recognise Services. Did you load it at login by any chance? If you did I would guess that the app launched itself before Services kicked in (it has happened to me a few times with apps launched at login). Just quit the app and relaunch it. Services should start working again. If not logout and back in again.<hr /></blockquote>I had, but thanks anyway. That wasn't _quite_ the problem, actually - cocoAspell needed a bit more time to "Warm up". The next OW window I opened it worked fine in.

Northform · Jul 4, 2002, 01:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Group51:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dazzla:
This has been one of my annoyances on OS X, I've got everything I can see set to british, but any apps that take advantage of system side spell checking think I'm american.

Take Omniweb for example:

<img src="http://idisk.mac.com/dazzla2/Public/spelling.png" alt=" - " />

It's so annoying. I can't see what else to change. On internation in system settings, I've got the language set to british english, I've also tried english, keyboard is british and that's about it. I can't think of any other places.

Surely i'm not the only owner of OS X in the UK this is happening to...<hr /></blockquote>[rant]

Its a disgrace, and it doesn't happen on Windows. Apple stopped supporting British English, which if I may remind readers, is the written lanugage of every other English speaking country, including India, except the United States, a while back. Given OS X's support for multiple languages, I foolishly hoped this would be a temporary suspension of service. However the US-centricism is continued and furthered in OS X.

Not only is it an insult that our language is not supported, but in software like AppleWorks, they have the cheek to call our version International English. International English, which is actually Amercan English.

To compound this, the printer drivers are set by default to a non-standard format called US letter. I don't know what US letter is, but it causes Print Center to give an error, and I need to re-set it to the internationally standard A4 paper size.

And finally, to show that all of this isn't some fluke, when one clicks on the menubar clock to reveal the date, it is displayed in a confusing non-standard format. In the US, it seems, the month comes before the day, and the year after the day!

Furthermore, after this (which today shows me the date is the 7th of January, 2002) despite me informing the computer in the International settings that as a modern European, I choose to the the 24-hour clock, a see the time revealed is 12-hour.

[/rant]<hr /></blockquote>The reason they call it international English is because it is used internationally (even if you are in England or one of the other countries that use it). It is easier than putting British English, Irish English, Indian English, South Africian English, Hong Kong English while having them all use the same resource. It's not like they refer to what Americans use as plain English; they refer to it as North American English.

Personally I would like to see them call it Proper English. Maybe rename North American English to Bastard English?

biscuit · Jul 4, 2002, 01:44 PM

Dagnamit! Its gonna be "British English" in Jaguar!

Thats just not fair! At least call the other one "American English", the US doesn't own the language.

biscuit

JLL · Jul 4, 2002, 02:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by biscuit:
Dagnamit! Its gonna be "British English" in Jaguar!

Thats just not fair! At least call the other one "American English", the US doesn't own the language.

biscuit<hr /></blockquote>US English is there because Canadian English can be different from US English (according to my dictionary).

MrBS · Jul 4, 2002, 05:32 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Northform:
Personally I would like to see them call it Proper English. Maybe rename North American English to Bastard English?<hr /></blockquote>Somebody's bitter.

::notes date::

Oh...

~BS

kickinbut_takinnames · Jul 4, 2002, 07:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MrBS:
Originally posted by Northform:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Personally I would like to see them call it Proper English. Maybe rename North American English to Bastard English?[/qb]<hr /></blockquote>Somebody's bitter.

::notes date::

Oh...<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, it seems ironic, but also in character, for many of the Brits on this forum to keep this thread alive, whining on about "US English", "British English", etc. on the very day that the USA celebrates having declared independence from Britain.

[ 07-04-2002, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: kickinbut_takinnames ]

clebin · Jul 5, 2002, 03:23 PM

I think the answer is, no, there's nothing that 10.2 can't do..

To whoever said 'for the handful of words that are different'.. There's more than a handful, I can assure you. There's a whole load of words that end in ise/ize and then you have to contend with internationise, internationalised, internationalising, internationalisation and so on and so on. But who cares - it's in Jag.

What I really want to know is - can you hack OS X to change Trash to Wastebasket??

I miss that! Solutions please!

Chris

Northform · Jul 5, 2002, 05:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kickinbut_takinnames:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MrBS:
Originally posted by Northform:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Personally I would like to see them call it Proper English. Maybe rename North American English to Bastard English?<hr /></blockquote>Somebody's bitter.

::notes date::

Oh...<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, it seems ironic, but also in character, for many of the Brits on this forum to keep this thread alive, whining on about "US English", "British English", etc. on the very day that the USA celebrates having declared independence from Britain.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>That was simply an odd coincidence. I'm not British; I'm Irish. I'm not bitter; I was actually tring to be funny.

kickinbut_takinnames · Jul 5, 2002, 09:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Northform:
That was simply an odd coincidence. I'm not British; I'm Irish. I'm not bitter; I was actually tring to be funny.<hr /></blockquote>Either you take full responsibility for your post or you don't. Don't try to weasel out, to deflect criticism due to its content.

It really doesn't matter whether you are British, Irish or Swahili. The term "Brit", in the context of my post, referred to the 'attitude' that pervades many of the posts in this thread and on these fora, regardless of the poster's genealogy or place of birth. Your post captures that attitude quite well by referring to US English as "Bastard English". If you hang with Brits, you get hung with the Brit moniker. Wear it.

Whether or not you admit it, if you think that "Personally I would like to see them call it Proper English. Maybe rename North American English to Bastard English?" is funny, you are bitter about something.

Northform · Jul 5, 2002, 10:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kickinbut_takinnames:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Northform:
That was simply an odd coincidence. I'm not British; I'm Irish. I'm not bitter; I was actually tring to be funny.<hr /></blockquote>Either you take full responsibility for your post or you don't. Don't try to weasel out, to deflect criticism due to its content.

It really doesn't matter whether you are British, Irish or Swahili. The term "Brit", in the context of my post, referred to the 'attitude' that pervades many of the posts in this thread and on these fora, regardless of the poster's genealogy or place of birth. Your post captures that attitude quite well by referring to US English as "Bastard English". If you hang with Brits, you get hung with the Brit moniker. Wear it.

Whether or not you admit it, if you think that "Personally I would like to see them call it Proper English. Maybe rename North American English to Bastard English?" is funny, you are bitter about something.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for only quoting my post (I hate that "feature" that they introduced). The bastard english was a joke. You trolls need to lighten up (and so does the person who started this topic). I don't use those face icons and people assume that if I don't use them I must be serious. I don't hang with brits. I think this entire thread is rediculus. People can't deal with words being corrected? C'mon. The person who started this thread obviously was just boared and so was I when I posted that.

Would ""Personally I would like to see them call it Proper English. Maybe rename North American English to Bastard English?

" be more to your liking? Hey, it's Americans who are always making fun of Canadians for stupid things like that. It doesn't mean anything.

I actually like it correcting my writing (most of the time my words don't come out that way anymore anyway) since I like to assimilate.

The only possible way that I feel that might not be in line with your own thoughts is that if it is important to the person who posted it it should be taken seriously since, even though the rest of us think it's pointless, he doesn't.

I was the one that came out in support of calling British English International English.

Finally, lighten up people. What has the world come to when you can't make derogatory jokes (just kidding)? I was affraid you were going to take that one seriously as well.

This is serious: What would I be bitter about? My spelling of centre/center not being the most used? What a petty stupid thing. I couldn't care less.

I just want to make it very clear that I don't dislike the US or anything like that (hence I live here). The thing that bothers me the most about the US is how they incist on calling it a Sony WEGA instead of VEGA (joke).

Wow this post will annoy people.

To rehash: I don't care. I tell jokes in long threads.

EDIT: it wouldn't let me write pi** people off. It came out as 4 stars and looked like I meant to say the "F word". (tangent) It's the one magical word...

[ 07-05-2002, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Northform ]

kickinbut_takinnames · Jul 6, 2002, 01:20 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Northform:
Thank you for only quoting my post (I hate that "feature" that they introduced). The bastard english was a joke. You trolls need to lighten up (and so does the person who started this topic). I don't use those face icons and people assume that if I don't use them I must be serious. I don't hang with brits. I think this entire thread is rediculus. People can't deal with words being corrected? C'mon. The person who started this thread obviously was just boared and so was I when I posted that....<hr /></blockquote>Here, let me show you how this is done...

Sorry, I thought your original post was at least semi-serious and would probably fuel further posts of a similar nature. My original post was to remind everyone that July 4th wasn't a really good time for posts like yours but was not actually directed at you.

I stand by my second post. A joke in poor taste and/or with poor timing is not improved by appending emoticons or long explanations. A simple.. 'Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone' post would carry a lot more weight (assuming I've interpreted your most recent post correctly).

6116 · Jul 8, 2002, 02:58 AM

Couldn't one edit the default dictionary? Where is it? Could Sherlock indexing and searching as root do find it?

GRAFF · Jul 8, 2002, 05:20 AM

Trying to put all this nationalistic muck aside, here is what I need from a system dictionary:

I am an American working at an International Organization in France. At home, I tend to write in American English. At work, I have to use standard UK spellings. I also need to create documents in French. At home I share my Mac with someone who writes both in Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese! The system default language is set to American English. (I don't worry too much about the screen clock, as I have a fairly good idea of what month it is.)

The ideal solution for me would be to install all the dictionaries to which I need access. I would type my text, select it, and then apply the appropriate dictionary to check its spelling. Sounds a lot like MS Word? I shouldn't have to type everything in Word first and then paste it into another application, but that's just what I do.

Nathan Adams · Jul 8, 2002, 11:00 AM

Going on a slight tangent, but why must America refuse to adopt international standards?
International English, the Metric system, paper sizes, the list goes on.
What's worse is because of the omnipresent nature of american culture everywhere in the world - it just makes things a pain in the ass. Why must there be this insistance on being difficult?

Oh, and I want proper english too - I'm australian and I like my ou's and s's, not o's and z's

absmiths · Jul 8, 2002, 12:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nathan Adams:
Going on a slight tangent, but why must America refuse to adopt international standards?
International English, the Metric system, paper sizes, the list goes on.
What's worse is because of the omnipresent nature of american culture everywhere in the world - it just makes things a pain in the ass. Why must there be this insistance on being difficult?

Oh, and I want proper english too - I'm australian and I like my ou's and s's, not o's and z's<hr /></blockquote>Since we are retooling all of our machine shops and manufacturing plants - and buying new cars/autos to suit your preference, why not also rebuild all power plants to produce 220/50, or 240/50 or whatever voltage people outside of our country prefer? Rewiring all of our neighborhoods and homes seems reasonable, too - as long as we are compatible. While we are at it, we can adopt the PAL standard and ditch all of our VCRs and DVDs!

Out of curiosity, which language would you have us use?

absmiths · Jul 8, 2002, 12:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Group51:
Apple stopped supporting British English, which if I may remind readers, is the written lanugage of every other English speaking country, including India, except the United States, a while back.
<hr /></blockquote>I couldn't get this off my mind - that is one messed up sentence. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Group51:

However the US-centricism is continued and furthered in OS X.
<hr /></blockquote>And that is an anti-American sentiment.

Nathan Adams · Jul 8, 2002, 12:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by absmiths:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nathan Adams:
Going on a slight tangent, but why must America refuse to adopt international standards?
International English, the Metric system, paper sizes, the list goes on.
What's worse is because of the omnipresent nature of american culture everywhere in the world - it just makes things a pain in the ass. Why must there be this insistance on being difficult?

Oh, and I want proper english too - I'm australian and I like my ou's and s's, not o's and z's<hr /></blockquote>Since we are retooling all of our machine shops and manufacturing plants - and buying new cars/autos to suit your preference, why not also rebuild all power plants to produce 220/50, or 240/50 or whatever voltage people outside of our country prefer? Rewiring all of our neighborhoods and homes seems reasonable, too - as long as we are compatible. While we are at it, we can adopt the PAL standard and ditch all of our VCRs and DVDs!

Out of curiosity, which language would you have us use?<hr /></blockquote>Just like in our local car factories, we have to produce left side drive cars to export to you guys? Hey, I don't care about voltage - because I use multivoltage adapters where possible, and PAL IS superior to NTSC, but I won't get into that now...

I'd have you all use actual english. It's always baffled me why it morphed into 'american english' in the first place.

and regarding the other post that pointing out how alot of things are american-centric was anti-american sentiment - What's anti about it? It's a spot on observation. Try living outside of America for a while (europe, aus, whereever) and have a look at your country (note I said 'country', not 'people') from an outside perspective <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[ 07-08-2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Nathan Adams ]

sgrup · Jul 8, 2002, 01:19 PM

let's face it - English is called English because it is the language spoken in England and the English language was brought to America by English colonisers and only subsequently evolved into what is today referred to as American English. So let's hope that we don't see English used as referring to American English in 10.2

.. and i'm not English myself so..

s

Judge_Fire · Jul 8, 2002, 01:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Christopher Ellis:
As far as the market share is concerned, I would just like to point out one thing:

MOST OF THE WORLD WILL NOT USE ENGLISH AS THEIR DEFAULT IF THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE IS AVAILABLE.<hr /></blockquote>Probably so, but interestingly:

1: Every Mac owner I know uses English instead of Finnish. That's more than 20 individuals. Reasons for this include 'weirdness' of the jargon used in the localization, confusing multi- linguality as most apps don't include Finnish anyway and, perhaps quite importantly, English is the language of choice in the learning material on the web and in books.

2: All our lab/office systems have traditionally been in English because of a high percentage of foreign students and faculty. Due to this, there's a wealth of teaching material with screen shots and step-by-step guides with English UI - references.

For reasons like the ones above, many schools, businesses and even individuals outside the English- speaking countries still choose English over the localized version.

Related to this thread:

- I want to use a US or International English UI with A4 paper and other Finnish settings without defaulting to Letter. Hopefully all is well in 10.2. Alternatively, I'll import a few boxen of Letter Paper from the US

- I want to use two languages simultaneously in the Spell Checker. I've advocated this before, I'll evangelize it now. In the current situation, my spell checking is off, because the other language would be massively underlined in red. It doesn't require a lot of AI to figure out which one of, say, two selected languages is being typed and then focus on correcting that.

Many of us work bi(or more)lingually.

J

Spirit_VW · Jul 8, 2002, 02:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nathan Adams:
Going on a slight tangent, but why must America refuse to adopt international standards?
International English, the Metric system, paper sizes, the list goes on.
What's worse is because of the omnipresent nature of american culture everywhere in the world - it just makes things a pain in the ass. Why must there be this insistance on being difficult?

Oh, and I want proper english too - I'm australian and I like my ou's and s's, not o's and z's<hr /></blockquote>Because it's our right to not do so if we don't want to, and we don't want to. Because we have a different culture than other countries. Because the American people have not yet expressed any major desire to do so. How about we also force Japan and China to stop speaking those silly languages and adopt International English?

I don't dislike Europe. Not at all. But you know, this whole "one world order," "the entire world should all do the same thing" radical stuff doesn't sit right with me. Celebrate differences, y'all.

[ 07-08-2002, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Spirit_VW ]

seb2 · Jul 8, 2002, 02:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Judge_Fire:
...
For reasons like the ones above, many schools, businesses and even individuals outside the English- speaking countries still choose English over the localized version
...<hr /></blockquote>sorry but that's just not true.

i don't know anybody who chose english as the default language for his os, no matter whether they're using mac os, windows or linux.

all apps i use are localized, as well. my university's computers all use german versions of whatever os and all applications run in german, as well.

i wouldn't have a problem having to use an english application when it comes to usage; i'd have a mental problem with it. -- and, i do speak three foreign languages quite fluently besides my native language.

i mean, face it: most of the stuff i type is in german, many of the documents i read are in german -- so i want my spell checker to be able to find typos in those documents.

and believe me, all foreign countries i've been to used an os in the local language, that includes all of the places in the former in the ussr i've been to -- and that's a lot of places.

asxless · Jul 8, 2002, 04:24 PM

I'll try one more time to post a few suggestions without getting embroiled in the continuing World vs USA issues.

There are good reasons for EVERYONE to install CocoAspell. Yes, even the people who prefer US English spell checking. CocoAspell checks 2 and 3 character words and allows user control of the suggested words.

Note for multilingual OS X users... You can also select the dictionary that you wish to use ON THE FLY via the Spelling... dialog in Cocoa apps. For example, I am posting this via OmniWeb and I just switched from the American English to British English dictionary and the word dialog is now marked as misspelled and the pop-up suggested dialogue. The same thing happens in TextEdit and hence presumably in all Cocoa apps.

Also, there is a pair of nice FREE applications which will let you switch the default paper size to A4 or US Letter whenever you want.

asxless in iLand

JLL · Jul 8, 2002, 04:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by seb2:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Judge_Fire:
...
For reasons like the ones above, many schools, businesses and even individuals outside the English- speaking countries still choose English over the localized version
...<hr /></blockquote>sorry but that's just not true.

i don't know anybody who chose english as the default language for his os, no matter whether they're using mac os, windows or linux.

all apps i use are localized, as well. my university's computers all use german versions of whatever os and all applications run in german, as well.

and believe me, all foreign countries i've been to used an os in the local language, that includes all of the places in the former in the ussr i've been to -- and that's a lot of places.<hr /></blockquote>Try visiting your neighbor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Many Danes run their OS and apps in English.

Lew · Jul 8, 2002, 04:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by asxless:
I'll try one more time to post a few suggestions without getting embroiled in the continuing World vs USA issues.

There are good reasons for EVERYONE to install CocoAspell. Yes, even the people who prefer US English spell checking. CocoAspell checks 2 and 3 character words and allows user control of the suggested words.

Note for multilingual OS X users... You can also select the dictionary that you wish to use ON THE FLY via the Spelling... dialog in Cocoa apps. For example, I am posting this via OmniWeb and I just switched from the American English to British English dictionary and the word dialog is now marked as misspelled and the pop-up suggested dialogue. The same thing happens in TextEdit and hence presumably in all Cocoa apps.

Also, there is a pair of nice FREE applications which will let you switch the default paper size to A4 or US Letter whenever you want.

asxless in iLand<hr /></blockquote>Woo-hoo! The red lines have gone!

talisker · Jul 8, 2002, 04:47 PM

For #@&%*@'s sake Americans, the majority of comments from non-Americans here are not bashing the USA, rather they are pointing out some differences in cultures, language etc, and making some silly but often amusing jokes. The fact that some were posted on 4 July is irrelevant, it doesnt mean anything to people outside your country. Stop being so incredibly defensive about your country and have a laugh about yourselves in the same way other nationalities do. And just to explain, the suggestion that american english be named bastard english is not (as far as I can see) suggesting that Americans are bastards, but is simply inherently funny because bastard is a funny word. And regarding using different language, measurements etc from the rest of the world, the problem isnt that you do so in your own country, but that you export these standards to the rest of the world ignoring the fact that they are nonsensical in other countries. Lighten up guys!

kickinbut_takinnames · Jul 8, 2002, 07:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by talisker:
... Stop being so incredibly defensive about your country and have a laugh about yourselves in the same way other nationalities do. And just to explain, the suggestion that american english be named bastard english is not (as far as I can see) suggesting that Americans are bastards, but is simply inherently funny because bastard is a funny word....<hr /></blockquote>Just like Gumboot and Paddock are inherently funny words. So it would demonstrate a complete lack of international sophistication, if anyone suggested that I am not just trying to be funny when I say that OS X needs a Gumboot or Paddock English dictionary to handle the dialect used by Kiwi youth to whisper sweet nothings in their true love's ear.

talisker · Jul 8, 2002, 11:21 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kickinbut_takinnames:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by talisker:
... Stop being so incredibly defensive about your country and have a laugh about yourselves in the same way other nationalities do. And just to explain, the suggestion that american english be named bastard english is not (as far as I can see) suggesting that Americans are bastards, but is simply inherently funny because bastard is a funny word....<hr /></blockquote>Just like Gumboot and Paddock are inherently funny words. So it would demonstrate a complete lack of international sophistication, if anyone suggested that I am not just trying to be funny when I say that OS X needs a Gumboot or Paddock English dictionary to handle the dialect used by Kiwi youth to whisper sweet nothings in their true love's ear.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed, you get my point. As I'm not a kiwi I probably shouldnt answer for them, but then again I am Scottish so the same could apply.