[vmarks]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So there is no choice for the children of female converts to Judaism. I get it. You are forced to be a Jew for your whole life because your mother converted.

Does that mean there are Jewish-Atheists, Jewish-Christians, Jewish-Muslims etc etc etc?

[/b]

There are Jews who choose to practice something other than Judaism. There's no punishment for it unlike that specified for apostasy in the Hadiths for Islam.
[b]

But from what you said the biological argument for calling Jews a race is non-existent.

I'm not sure how you conclude that I even had a biological argument for this label. Amongst ourselves, Jews debate: Are we a people, a race, a religion, or some combination of the three? Among Ashkenazi Jews there are genetic traits and similarities, including common DNA markers and liklihood for Tay Sachs.

- For the most part, Jews marry Jews and have Jewish children. A convert who has Jewish children who marry Jews who then have Jewish children... and so forth.

Besides, you may wish to recall that the "Jewish Race" was something put upon Jews by anti-semites, not created by Jews.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So there is no choice for the children of female converts to Judaism. I get it. You are forced to be a Jew for your whole life because your mother converted.

Does that mean there are Jewish-Atheists, Jewish-Christians, Jewish-Muslims etc etc etc?

But from what you said the biological argument for calling Jews a race is non-existent.

In the opinion of certain Orthodox Jewish Rabbis, you are a "Jew" under their defined circumstances. Others, including the Supreme Court of Israel and many Reform congregations, have different opinions. This is like using the opinion of a Roman Catholic Cardinal as to what is a Christian. Somewhen an ancestor of every Jew converted from something unless you believe that all came from Adam and Eve who were born Jews. The question of the existence of a race was legal as once the US government assigned races as a condition for immigration. They used the term "Hebrew" just as they used the term Czechoslovak or Russian. Now they use the term Hispanic (and I have a relative whose father went from Latvia to Brazil and he then came here. So is he Hispanic, Latvian, or what?). Americans are all human and thereby African-Americans. http://www.halcyondays.com/dna/haplo...ssignments.htm is a rough guide to races. sam

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by SVass

In the opinion of certain Orthodox Jewish Rabbis, you are a "Jew" under their defined circumstances. Others, including the Supreme Court of Israel and many Reform congregations, have different opinions. This is like using the opinion of a Roman Catholic Cardinal as to what is a Christian. Somewhen an ancestor of every Jew converted from something unless you believe that all came from Adam and Eve who were born Jews. The question of the existence of a race was legal as once the US government assigned races as a condition for immigration. They used the term "Hebrew" just as they used the term Czechoslovak or Russian. Now they use the term Hispanic (and I have a relative whose father went from Latvia to Brazil and he then came here. So is he Hispanic, Latvian, or what?). Americans are all human and thereby African-Americans. http://www.halcyondays.com/dna/haplo...ssignments.htm is a rough guide to races. sam

The Reform and Conservative Rabbis accept Orthodox conversions. The Supreme Court of Israel accepts Orthodox conversions as well as Conservative and Reform ones. The Rabbinate of Israel devotes a lot of resources to tracking matrilineal geneaology as well- other country's Rabbinates may or may not be as detailed. There is no central authority, no position analgous to a "pope" so in the end, one country's rabbinate accepts the word of another.

[christ]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Of course, Jews are not born Muslims (as the Muslim might claim) because Jews are born of Jewish mothers and do not believe in Islam.

How does a new-born Jew believe in anything? My assumption would be that they don't 'believe' in Judaism either, but that apparently is no bar to being a Jew.

If such a one were reared by Muslims, might it not 'believe in Islam'?

Does a Jew have to believe in anything to remain a Jew? (apparently not)

If a Jewess converts to Christianity, is her child a Jew?

I have oft wondered what makes a Jew a Jew, and this is of more than passing interest, but your definition appears to be 'any child of a Jewess, regardless of belief'. This makes it most definitely a biological trait rather than a theological one.

Or is it your contention that a child of a Jewess, even if reared by non-Jews, would still believe in Judaism?

Confused.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by christ

Or is it your contention that a child of a Jewess, even if reared by non-Jews, would still believe in Judaism?

Confused.

Think of Jewishness as a state of being and Judaism as something seperate. If you're a Jew, then Judaism claims to apply to you, whether your believe in it or not. So you can be a Jew without believing in Judaism and you can believe in Judaism without being a Jew (unless/until you actually convert). Arguably Christians and Muslims (who weren't born Jews) are non-Jews that believe in Judaism.

So the child of Jewess is a Jew, will always be a Jew, and, according to the precepts of Judaism, is bound by Jewish law. However if he was raised by non-Jews he will most likely not belive in Judaism and probably not follow Jewish law.

I think I got that right ...I'm hungry.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

B It might be biologically Jewish(although that distinction is slowly disappearing)

Wha?

But since we are all born free of sin and are all born good every child will be allowed into Heaven.

Or as the Christian Bible teaches, we are all born into sin, but there is an age of accountability.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So there is no choice for the children of female converts to Judaism. I get it. You are forced to be a Jew for your whole life because your mother converted.

Not even close.. Jews can convert anytime they wish. Have you never heard of "Jews For Jesus" ?

[bubblewrap]

Or Messianic Jews.
My dispatcher is one.

[Taliesin]

I took the time to research what the Quran has to say about apostacy, and I found these verses:

Sura 3:

81. Behold! God took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an apostle, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." God said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

82. If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors.

83. Do they seek for other than the Religion of God.-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will, and to Him shall they all be brought back.

84. Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the book/message) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will."

85. If anyone desires a religion other than submission to God., never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

86. How shall God guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but God guides not a people unjust.

87. Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of God, of His angels, and of all mankind;-

88. In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be (their lot);-

89. Except for those that repent after that, and make amends; for verily God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

90. But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have gone astray.

91. As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers.

and

Sura 4:
137. Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- God will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way.

and

Sura 16:
104. Those who believe not in the Signs of God,- god will not guide them, and theirs will be a grievous penalty.

105. It is those who believe not in the Signs of God, that forge falsehood: it is they who lie!

106. Any one who, after accepting faith in God, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from God, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty.

107. This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and God will not guide those who reject faith.

In all of these and more God clearly says that anyone who rejects faith in the one God after he/she accepted it, will find no help and God will punish him in this life and espescially in the after-life. Nowhere does God say to kill people that change faith, but instead to leave it to God.

Interesting to note is that the Quran defines the faith in God as submission to God and includes by this the religion of the people of the book and their messages and prophets, and so if God says to leave the punsihment of those, that changed their faith to polytheism after they accepted monotheism, to God, then it is even more so for those that change faith from one monotheistic religion to another that preceded it.

While it is strange why someone would want to change faith to an older version of it, eventhough the newer one includes the older messages and prophets, (probably the change was done for monetary reasons and a position as a church-preacher..), it is according to the Quran not for us humans to punish or judge it but for God to decide.

Taliesin

[Weyland-Yutani]

Islam isn't Judaeism 1.2 Taliesin. Christianity Judaeism 1.1? Evangelism Judaeism 1.05b? Mormons.. uh..

There is a lot these religions have in common but not fundamentally. The absolute fundamental element of Christianity is the knowledge that Christ was the Son of God. That has a deep and important meaning.

Islam recognizes Christ as a prophet but that changes everything. He is no longer then a part of the Trinity. A very very very fundamental change.

Judaeism doesn't recognize Christ as anything but a rebel or terrorist or something. At best a misguided, discontent Jew who meant well.