[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

Don't you see the problem?

What problem ? All I am seeing is a flamefest and FUN

-t

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

Sorry to put this thread on the rails, but my opinion of the MM:

I used it for about 5 minutes at an Apple store last week. I really couldn't get into it. My problems:

1. The smooth surface. I like texture. smooth is all oily and gross (same reason why I don't use the old pro mouse)
2. The clit. It kinna works..sorta. It's too small, and unsubstantial feeling. More times than not, when I rolled it, my finger would end up hitting the mouse surface, stopping the rolling action. Diagonal movement is choppy, not freeform smooth like you would think a normal hand-tool would behave.
3. Right click. Apple's solution was grossly over-engineered, and it shows. The machinations to make a right click are just absurd, just so they could keep the buttonless smooth surface. Half my right clicks didn't register properly.
4. Side button. Didn't try it.

I think Apple took an overly cautious approach here. I really don't understand why they went to such great lengths to make a two-button-but-not mouse. It's a weird compromise and it shows. I see no reason why they couldn't have made a proper two-button mouse, including the scrollballl (made bigger imo), and keep the standard mouse. Everyone wins.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by james9490

Look Mr. Railhead, there are people who really can't use a computer mouse. i.e. elderly people with low motor skill, disabled people, etc. Your post might be amusing but it's quite offensive for those who struggle to use a mouse. I demand that you publicly apologize.

Your post shows just how little you value other people's needs, not to mention you don't value good user interface at all.

1) You're an idiot.

2) Elderly people are not the target market for a $50 mouse. Neither are crippled or stupid people who don't have the ability to figure it out. There is a large enough product variety out there to accommodate them. Apple doesn't need to make a mouse for every type of retard on the planet.

3) The user interface is fine given that most children above the age of 4 are quite adept at using more complicated input devices like a PS2 or xbox controller. A 3 minute trial run and a glance at the thing will be sufficient for the vast majority of technology literate individuals to use it.

4) I am an expert too. At money. This is a niche product. It is not meant to have huge sales figures to carry the company's earnings. It will sell just fine. It is not shoved down people's throats or included with every computer. It is an optional peripheral and those who want it will buy it. If your decrepit grandmother has a tough time using it then it would really be the fault of the dumbass who bought it for her not the person who designed it.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn

I see no reason why they couldn't have made a proper two-button mouse, including the scrollballl (made bigger imo), and keep the standard mouse. Everyone wins.

Because a couple dozen other companies already make those.
They would have lost money on manufacturing since your idea really wouldn't stand out enough in a crowded market to drive sales of that product. And since it would be branded "Apple" a lot of people wouldn't take the time to read the box saying it also works with PCs.
Apple is just making a couple bucks by selling the MM. It is trying to give its user base (who seemingly value sleek and stylish) an option from buying 3rd party mice. It is just one more thing you can buy from them rather than going to Kensington or someone else. If you like it buy it. If you don't no one will notice.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

1) You're an idiot.

2) Elderly people are not the target market for a $50 mouse. Neither are crippled or stupid people who don't have the ability to figure it out. There is a large enough product variety out there to accommodate them. Apple doesn't need to make a mouse for every type of retard on the planet.

3) The user interface is fine given that most children above the age of 4 are quite adept at using more complicated input devices like a PS2 or xbox controller. A 3 minute trial run and a glance at the thing will be sufficient for the vast majority of technology literate individuals to use it.

4) I am an expert too. At money. This is a niche product. It is not meant to have huge sales figures to carry the company's earnings. It will sell just fine. It is not shoved down people's throats or included with every computer. It is an optional peripheral and those who want it will buy it. If your decrepit grandmother has a tough time using it then it would really be the fault of the dumbass who bought it for her not the person who designed it.

Quoted for awesomeness.

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

Because a couple dozen other companies already make those.
They would have lost money on manufacturing since your idea really wouldn't stand out enough in a crowded market to drive sales of that product. And since it would be branded "Apple" a lot of people wouldn't take the time to read the box saying it also works with PCs.
Apple is just making a couple bucks by selling the MM. It is trying to give its user base (who seemingly value sleek and stylish) an option from buying 3rd party mice. It is just one more thing you can buy from them rather than going to Kensington or someone else. If you like it buy it. If you don't no one will notice.

Ok, I'll agree with this. But I think it begs the question, if something is worth doing, isn't it worth doing right? Personally, I don't think the MM was. But if others like, that's cool. I'll stick with my $30 Logitech wheelmouse

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Quoted for awesomeness.

Seconded.

-t

[Oisín]

Something is very wrong in this thread.

Both Chuckit, that chelonian fella up there, and now myself actually find ourselves agreeing whole-heartedly with no less than two Captain Obvious posts in a row.

The end is nigh.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Something is very wrong in this thread.

Both Chuckit, that chelonian fella up there, and now myself actually find ourselves agreeing whole-heartedly with no less than two Captain Obvious posts in a row.

The end is nigh.

Yeah, weird, init ? I couldn't remember the last time I wholeheartedly agreed with CO. On the other hand, idiots like james don't come here every day. So enjoy the fest.

Lata !

-t

[budster101]

So, where is the person (Troll, Baiter, Master of nothing) that started this thread in the first place?

[budster101]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

1) You're an idiot.

2) Elderly people are not the target market for a $50 mouse. Neither are crippled or stupid people who don't have the ability to figure it out. There is a large enough product variety out there to accommodate them. Apple doesn't need to make a mouse for every type of retard on the planet.

3) The user interface is fine given that most children above the age of 4 are quite adept at using more complicated input devices like a PS2 or xbox controller. A 3 minute trial run and a glance at the thing will be sufficient for the vast majority of technology literate individuals to use it.

4) I am an expert too. At money. This is a niche product. It is not meant to have huge sales figures to carry the company's earnings. It will sell just fine. It is not shoved down people's throats or included with every computer. It is an optional peripheral and those who want it will buy it. If your decrepit grandmother has a tough time using it then it would really be the fault of the dumbass who bought it for her not the person who designed it.

I have to give Captain some major props here. Quoted again for emphasis.

[effgee]

spooky.

**agrees with oisin**

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by budster101

I have to give Captain some major props here. Quoted again for emphasis.

Maybe we should promote him to Major Obvious?

[effgee]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Maybe we should promote him to Major Obvious?

tabCaptain Obvious
tabAddicted to MacNN
tab
tabJoin Date: Jul 2001
tabLocation: Across the river from Trump Chicago
tabPosts: 2,403 - 2 = 2401
tabStatus: Offline


Now, now, let's not get ahead of ourselves just yet ...

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

[awesomeness snipped]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Kevin]

James, you have officially been



I doubt we see him back though folks.

[budster101]

He ran away crying after we made him wet his microsoftpanties... what a crybaby. A real expert would have stood his ground and whined for at least 3 more pages.

[OpenStep]

[baw]

Yeah, ok. But when I post teh HA! HA! image, it gets tookinated.

[lavar78]

Maybe tooki's on break?

[Chuckit]

I think tooki is having trouble keeping up with all the damn HA! HA!s.

[khufuu]

Originally Posted by Paco500

I am an expert in asshats, I've known many asshats in the last 20 years, and I must say this: james9490 is THE biggest asshat I have ever seen in my entire life.

That being said, I'm not wild about the MightyMouse myself, but not really for any other reasons the asshat gave.

Something constructive here would have been appreciated.

[Kevin]

Yeah the toothy guy is cool. But only at 480 tops.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by james9490

Windows platform is dominant for good reasons.

Microsoft has billions upon billions of dollars and can use their dominant position to force out the competition and monopolize markets illegally?

I guess it's a good enough reason for Microsoft and its shareholders, but I'd have to say that I disagree it's a good reason for everyone else.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by turtle777

What problem ? All I am seeing is a flamefest and FUN

-t

And that is why I thing most people in this forum are immature, you being the prime example.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn

Sorry to put this thread on the rails, but my opinion of the MM:

I used it for about 5 minutes at an Apple store last week. I really couldn't get into it. My problems:

1. The smooth surface. I like texture. smooth is all oily and gross (same reason why I don't use the old pro mouse)
2. The clit. It kinna works..sorta. It's too small, and unsubstantial feeling. More times than not, when I rolled it, my finger would end up hitting the mouse surface, stopping the rolling action. Diagonal movement is choppy, not freeform smooth like you would think a normal hand-tool would behave.
3. Right click. Apple's solution was grossly over-engineered, and it shows. The machinations to make a right click are just absurd, just so they could keep the buttonless smooth surface. Half my right clicks didn't register properly.
4. Side button. Didn't try it.

I think Apple took an overly cautious approach here. I really don't understand why they went to such great lengths to make a two-button-but-not mouse. It's a weird compromise and it shows. I see no reason why they couldn't have made a proper two-button mouse, including the scrollballl (made bigger imo), and keep the standard mouse. Everyone wins.

EXCELLENT review. I finally found one reasonable person in this forum.

I tell you the truth: Mighty Mouse is a failure. It doesn't make sense. And I have the right to say it out loud. Apple should be harshly criticised for their lack of user-centered design philosophy.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

1) You're an idiot.

Back up your claim, please.

2) Elderly people are not the target market for a $50 mouse. Neither are crippled or stupid people who don't have the ability to figure it out. There is a large enough product variety out there to accommodate them. Apple doesn't need to make a mouse for every type of retard on the planet.

So, in your logic, Macintosh is for vertical market, targeting a specific group of people.

3) The user interface is fine given that most children above the age of 4 are quite adept at using more complicated input devices like a PS2 or xbox controller. A 3 minute trial run and a glance at the thing will be sufficient for the vast majority of technology literate individuals to use it.

PS2/xBox isn't personal computer. User interface implementation is totally different. You are using a bad example for this discussion.

4) I am an expert too. At money. This is a niche product. It is not meant to have huge sales figures to carry the company's earnings. It will sell just fine. It is not shoved down people's throats or included with every computer. It is an optional peripheral and those who want it will buy it. If your decrepit grandmother has a tough time using it then it would really be the fault of the dumbass who bought it for her not the person who designed it.

The problem, though, is that Apple is likely to make it a standard equipment. That's when your grandma and aunt will have huge issues.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Yeah, weird, init ? I couldn't remember the last time I wholeheartedly agreed with CO. On the other hand, idiots like james don't come here every day. So enjoy the fest.

Unlike some of you kiddies I have a full-time job. I think you should appreciate your mommy and daddy a lot more than you do. After all you have time and money to buy a computer, get on this web site and ridicule other people.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Kevin

James, you have officially been



I doubt we see him back though folks.

Who said that I went away? Besides, you haven't even touched me a bit. "Smackdown" is an overstatement. Smackdown for what? Listen to yourself before making fun of other people.

[baw]

This is a troll free zone.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by OpenStep

In spite of your insult the fact remains: Mighty Mouse is an utter failure, and Apple is responsible for inability to design their mouse the right way.

Now, are you gonna generate your silly HA HA picture again for me? Do you even have a real life of your own??

[baw]

Umm, dude. It is a $50 computer mouse. Get over it. No one forces you to use it. If you don't like it, there is always Logitech. If there is ever a time for a thread derail, this is it.


This thread is now about Don Kings hair.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Microsoft has billions upon billions of dollars and can use their dominant position to force out the competition and monopolize markets illegally?

I guess it's a good enough reason for Microsoft and its shareholders, but I'd have to say that I disagree it's a good reason for everyone else.

Yes, it is good for everyone. Many people complain about Microsoft monopoly, but it is actually good for consumers because it standardize the whole industry and have one big platform that everyone can play together. It's stupid that there are so many different browsers with different rendering behaviors for each browser. Things would be a lot more simplified if we have to design for just one browser (Internet Explorer). It's like having a music CD standard format and everyone conform to that standard. Right now it's like we have 15 different Audio CD standards. It confuses consumers, and it's bad.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by james9490

Who said that I went away? Besides, you haven't even touched me a bit.

Right, it's only a fleshwound eh?

[b]
"Smackdown" is an overstatement. Smackdown for what? Listen to yourself before making fun of other people.

Take for example, the smackdown Captain Obvious laid on you.

And yes, it was a smackdown.

And you know, I dislike MS mice. They give my hand cramps.

But I don't go into Windows forums making trollish statements of the like.

You seriously have issues of the zealous kind.

A Apple mouse must have beat you up on the playground.

[baw]

Originally Posted by james9490

Yes, it is good for everyone. Many people complain about Microsoft monopoly, but it is actually good for consumers because it standardize the whole industry and have one big platform that everyone can play together.

lol

You obviously never worked in tech support before.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

James,

I've used Maury's (that's Railhead) software (you should try JediMaker, it's fun) and never had trouble with the interface.

I also found it ironic that you are talking as if you know all about good user interfaces but yet you are defending Windows to the death, blaming it's security issues on the user. Stupid users, it's their fault. Um, ok, what happened to Mr. Usability?

I don't defend Windows. I never said in this forum that I like Windows UI. That's not the topic of this thread yet you are accusing me of something I haven't even said.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Okay, THAT'S IT! I've been called a Neocon, an asshat, a Nazi, bastard, and all kinds of other things -- but no one, NO ONE gets away with calling me an...

[FONT=Arial Black]OFFENSIVE POSTER!![/font]

I DEMAND a public -- and even a not-so-public -- apology!

You really ARE offensive, and you come out with a complete rudeness. If in doubt just have your wife or girlfriend review your posts and see what she says about them. (I would be surprised if you are even married or have a mate. Just what kind of crazy girl would marry/date an offensive guy like you?)

You can't give me a rat's a$$ because you *are* a rat's a$$ and you can't even give up on yourself. Now how's that for my apology, eh? Like I said, just review what you've posted so far with a cooled head. Repent your rudeness.

[jasonsRX7]

I have been trying to post in this thread since yesterday, but I couldn't figure out how to click the reply button with my Mighty Mouse. You are supposed to buy two of them, one for each hand... right?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by james9490

Windows platform is dominant for good reasons.

Originally Posted by james9490

I don't defend Windows.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by james9490

Back up your claim, please.

That's rich coming from you. Or is your idea of "backing up a claim" just repeating the claim a bunch of times?

Originally Posted by james9490

The problem, though, is that Apple is likely to make it a standard equipment.

Case in point.

Not only that, but even if Apple did make it standard equipment, most of your bitching is unimportant if people would specifically have to enable the features you are bitching about. (This was brought up before and then you bitched that they weren't enabled by default.)

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Millennium

It's true that RAILhead is fairly small as Mac developers go, but he has been a Mac user and UI advocate for many years, and he is more than worthy of respect in these areas. If you are such a UI expert, then let's see some UIs you've designed, and we will evaluate your expertise for ourselves. But I'm warning you, you're in Mac-land now, and Mac users are famous in the industry for being picky about user-interface issues. I hope you're up to the challenge.

Being curious I just checked his web site and I am appalled by Password Master's UI design. It doesn't use column view for different categories, and I could see at least dozen flaws in the UI implementation. I can find at least 10 password manager software that are better than his stuff. And you tell me he is an expert? Mac market must be really gracious or something.

Actually, Mac land tends to be a bunch of fans who are so afraid of small market share and developers leaving the platform they can't safely criticize bad design. So it's easier to sell poorly designed products at a higher price point.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Forget it. He doesn't get it. Doesn't register. He still thinks he is the only sane around here !
Mwhaahahahaha.

With the way you post your comments, how in the world could I possibly think that you are sane and mature??

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Millennium

That's not usability, it's convenience. Any real UI expert would know the difference between these things. Contextual menus are convenient, but their usability is very low, in large part because they're the textbook example of 'hidden UI'. I thought you hated hidden UI. That's the point of having the full functionality available via only one mouse button; expose the entire UI through a very usable interface for beginners, and then add conveniences such as contextual menus for more advanced users.

Convenience is a part of the usability equation. Without many convenient features there is no good usability. Simple.

Originally Posted by Millennium

Why is it obvious? Apple has held out against the multibutton crowd for over twenty years now, and they've got research to back it up. I was worried when I first heard about the Mighty Mouse that they would make it standard, but I'm relieved to find that this has not happened.

It's a step in a wrong direction. Apple has held out against the multibutton crowd because Steve Jobs is an egomaniac and he can't get over himself. It's also called "reality distortion field."

[james9490]

Originally Posted by smacintush

There are 2 universal truths we all need to understand to live properly:

#1 Apple makes crappy mice and it doesn't look like that will change anytime soon.

#2 James9490 doesn't know what the f*ck he's talking about.

+1

The word "f*ck" is actually quite an interesting element in your posting, because it really shows what you *really* are when you say it out loud publicly.

Would you clearify what the f*ck you are talking about a little better?

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

You guys are arguing with a Windows User. Don't you see the problem?

Oh yeah. And the Puck mouse was absolutely the worst!

How so?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by james9490

Actually, Mac land tends to be a bunch of fans who are so afraid of small market share and developers leaving the platform they can't safely criticize bad design. So it's easier to sell poorly designed products at a higher price point.

Okay, we definitely have a troll.

[esXXI]

Been a while since I've seen such whiney, selective posting by a newbie who is a super-dooper-UI-expert-that's-afraid-to-say-anything-about-his-work.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by james9490

Actually, Mac land tends to be a bunch of fans who are so afraid of small market share and developers leaving the platform they can't safely criticize bad design. So it's easier to sell poorly designed products at a higher price point.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by james9490

So, in your logic, Macintosh is for vertical market, targeting a specific group of people.

No, you stupid douche that isn't the correct train of thought at all.
You really didn't understand any of that did you?

What I said was that peripherals like that are made to cater to certain users because of their personal tastes. I don't use trackballs, bluetooth, or wireless mice because they do not satisfy my needs and tastes. But their existence in the market is not a failure because there is a demographic who desires them and will buy them despite the fact that I will not. The MM is targeted at filling a fairly defined void in the consumer mouse market. It is not meant to satisfy the needs of every graphic designers, gamer, or video editor. It is going after those Apple and PC users who care about the aesthetic value of their computer set up. It's primary goal was to be visually pleasing to those who like the look of Apple's designs and desire a programmable mouse. Couple that with the fact that its MSRP puts it outside of competition with many other similar items and you start to see who this was made for. Only certain people are willing to pay that premium a price and your Nana isn't one of them.

One stupid mouse does not diminish the potential market of future Macintosh buyers. In fact it might add to it as uneducated consumers realize that muliti-buttom mice are natively supported by Apple.

I bet the R&D and manufacturing costs that went into producing this will be covered with the sale of a fifty-thousand units over the product's lifetime. That's nothing in terms of sales volume. It is not a failure simply because the intention of the products was to only capture a fraction of a percentage point of the market. It will do that despite you and your granny not liking it.

PS2/xBox isn't personal computer. User interface implementation is totally different. You are using a bad example for this discussion.

It is quite relevant to the discussion. Maybe in 1970 the MM would have been too much for the average consumer to be comfortable with but this isn't that era anymore. The technological know-how of the average consumer has been raised so high by now that almost anyone can figure out devices like video games, mice, ATMs, cell phones within minutes of picking one up. Not because of the thought put into the design but because every area of our lives has been integrated with equally complex technological gadgets that people are already accustom to. If you can figure out how to use a VCR remote you will have the ability to use Apple's mice. It isn't the implementation it is the familiarity that will aid in its use.

The problem, though, is that Apple is likely to make it a standard equipment. That's when your grandma and aunt will have huge issues.

Wrong. There is no basis or proof for that assumption. If we are taking liberties like these then you may as well say Apple will include their Bluetooth mice instead. Even if Apple wanted to depart from one button mice making the MM standard would not be the logical or fiscally optimal choice. It costs more to produce and would cut into profit margins without increasing the overall value (and thus justify a price increase) of the computer it came with.
Furthermore, unless Neiman Marcus starts selling Apple computer peripherals my grams will not be picking anything like this up on her own. She will defer to one her grandchildren who understands her needs and is better veresed in technology to make her purchase.

Honestly, I am willing to believe you are some computer programming dork but you didn't go to business school. You are not qualified to designate this as failure from any standpoint. Give me hard numbers on what it cost Apple to make this, what their projected sales figures are, and a copy of the proposal that made Apple decide to venture into this already saturated market. There was some thinking into making this product because I know they didn't do it to capture huge marketshare. Given the price point of the item Apple isn't going to lose money on this venture. It’s a winner the day it breaks even.

You moron.

[Oisín]

I cannot believe this one hasn't been pounced upon yet. Seriously, guys, that's just too weak. Shame on you.

Originally Posted by james9490

It's stupid that there are so many different browsers with different rendering behaviors for each browser. Things would be a lot more simplified if we have to design for just one browser (Internet Explorer).

They would be more simplified, yes, but they would also be a lot worse off, since Internet Explorer is, debatably, the worst current browser out there in regards to rendering behaviour. (And don't bother asking me to back up my claim on this, simply use Google, you'll find several thousand pages to back it up)

To use your own example (sort of), things would also be much simpler if the Mighty Mouse was the only mouse available; we wouldn't have to worry about all those different buttons and different behaviours, then.

As you are no doubt aware, being the UI expert that you are, there are standards and rules for HTML, CSS, PHP, JavaScript, and pretty much any other language you can throw at a browser. The fact that Internet Explorer is the most widely used browser does not give it the right to dismiss these standards and render things as glaringly incorrectly as it does.

The W3C is there for a reason: to standardise Internet content, and make it equally viewable in all browsers. We may consider the standards that are determined and recommended by the W3C as the 'laws' of the Internet; by breaking them, Internet Explorer is thus breaking the 'laws'. Why should the standard be set by the one browser that consistently breaks more 'laws' than any other browser out there, just because it happens to be the most extensively used? The answer: it shouldn't.