[swrate]

Originally Posted by Troll

First off vmarks, it's no wonder you have a completely skewed version of this thing if you read websites like France-echos!!!
Why don't you name some of these countries you're talking about that don't have ghettos. I don't know any country with a population the size of France's that doesn't have this problem.
Uhmm, did you miss the riots two weeks ago in the UK? You know, real race riots between Asians and whites.
Funny, you post a picture of a demonstration - whites, blacks, Arabs all marching peacefully with T-Shirts saying "Dead for no reason" and somehow you turn that into an Intifada! Maybe you need to read a little more about France. Demonstrations like that are a daily occurrence.

As for the comparison with the LA Riots or the Intifada, maybe some of you forget that in 1992, thousands of people went on a rampage for 6 days solid. 60 people were killed in Los Angeles, 2,000 people were injured, damage of around $800 million was done. 10,000 people were arrested. The Al Aqsa Intifada has claimed over 1,000 Israeli lives and about 2,400 Palestinian lives. It has been going on for 5 years.

The "riots" in Paris have happened at night only. There have been no deaths. Let's look at what has happened:

Thursday
Police were called to Clichy-sous-Bois after a dozen youths tried to break into a hut on a building site. Two of them apparently ran away from the Police, scaled the wall of an electrical relay station, touched a transformer and died. The Police say that they did not chase the boys and even if they had, the deaths are hardly the cops' fault. The Paramedics come to help the boys and are attacked by a gang of thugs. It is common for youths to attack the "Pompiers" when they intervene in the cité. Don't ask me why. 15 vehicles are burned during the night. The Police decide to react.

Friday
On Friday night, in the Chêne-Pointu quarter, 400 youths face off against 250 Policemen. The Police are fired on and a Police officer is wounded. 30 vehicles are set alight. 13 youths (including a minor) are arrested.

Saturday
500 people of all races march in silence to pay hommage to the 2 boys who died. That's the photo vmarks posted. Some of them wore T-Shirts saying "Dead for nothing." There is no violence during the night but 17 dustbins are set alight. 12 people are arrested for carrying bottles of petrol.

Sunday
In the Forestière area, violence begins at nightfall. The teargas cannister goes off inside a mosque and the Police (who deny responsibility) are blamed. Six Policemen are injured and 11 people arrested.

Monday
At nightfall, youths set fire to cars and dustbins at Clichy-sous-Bois but the situation is generally calm. 11 people are arrested.

Tuesday
Violence erupts in Seine-et-Marne, les Yvelines at le Val-d'Oise. 100-150 youths are involved. They set alight 8 cars. 11 people are arrested last night.

Have a look at this video to see what it's about. Then go and download some footage of the L.A. Riots or the Intifada and tell me it's even close to the same thing. http://www.lemonde.fr/web/vi/0,[email protected],0.html

What you have in Paris is a bunch of white, black, Asian and Muslim youths who are used to having control over their neighbourhoods. They're used to running the show through fear and intimidation. And now they're unhappy that the Police have decided to step in and take back control of the cité. The people involved in the violence are a tiny minority of young people that are quite openly saying that the Police shouldn't be doing their job in the cité. They are holding up banners accusing the Police or having chased people attempting to commit burglary!!!! Only in France!! On the other side, you have the demonstrations that we had a month or so back by thousands of people from the cité demanding that law and order be restored to the cité after a bunch of youths gunned down a ten year old child in the entrance to his building during some drug war.

There's a minority that likes the disorder, that lives off it and that is exploiting the situation to maintain the anarchy. This is criminal activity, in my opinion. Given the numbers of people involved, I wouldn't even call it a riot and given the variety of races involved, it's certainly not a race riot. There's a gap between rich and poor in France, just as there is in every country on the planet. That difference can breed violence very easily. When you try to address some of the effects of that gap, it causes tension.

yes, merci

They should hire many these youths in the Police, and send them in those suburbs as they used to do, at least in the social services, instead of cutting on the funds. In France, they hardly hire "coloured" "typed" Policemen, whereas in UK security is held by all sorts of ethnicities.

Witnesses said those kids were chased after, if the cops knew those kids were there, i hope they will be charged with homicide: "non assistance à personne en danger"
the story reminds me of the UK cops; authority feels covered by the hierarchy and fires at innocents, or lets innocents be electrocuted….or…..

Power trip of a few, added to racism, superiority complexes, in zones where the differences are growing and showing. Equal chances? Mon oeil. Anyway.
same ole same ole same ole, all over, evidenced in NO,
Bronx, or some areas in Queens anyone?

[nonhuman]

So if some Muslims were Nazis and that is now an indictment on all Muslims, shouldn't it also be an indictment on all Europeans?

If we can accept modern Europeans as good people despite the actions of some past Europeans, then why can't we accept modern Muslims as good people despite the actions of some past Muslims?

The subsets of Muslims who did and even continue to do horrible things are no different than the subsets of Europeans who did or even continue to do horrible things. Despite them, there are plenty of good European people and plenty of good Muslim people.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by swrate

Witnesses said those kids were chased after, if the cops knew those kids were there, i hope they will be charged with homicide: "non assistance à personne en danger"

Doesn't the police have the right to chase suspects?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Doesn't the police have the right to chase suspects?

Yeah, I don't get this either. Everyone agrees that the Police were called because these kids were trying to break into a building. Everyone agrees that they ran away.

So the only questions really are:

1) Did the Police know the boys had fried themselves on the transformer?
2) If so, did they not do all they could have done to help them?

Bearing in mind, that death by touching a high voltage transformer is pretty instantaneous and that there isn't much you can do to save someone once they're welded to it. About the only thing you can do is call the electricity company and ask them to turn the thing off. And by the time you've done that, the kids are dead anyway. As for the cops knowing that they were chasing the kids to their death, who do you think knows the area better, the cops or the kids?

Actually, I don't think it's really that that the parents are complaining about. I think they're upset that the cité are such a dead end that kids die committing crime. They just need to learn to channel their energy toward positive change rather than reinforcing the issues that caused their kids to turn to crime.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

The subsets of Muslims who did and even continue to do horrible things ...

How is this point related to this story? The Paris violence has nothing to do with religion. It's not Muslim groups committing the violence.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Troll

How is this point related to this story? The Paris violence has nothing to do with religion. It's not Muslim groups committing the violence.

Why is the BBC reporting it as such then?

Correspondents say anger grew after a tear gas canister was hurled into a mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois on Sunday night.

Clichy saw five successive nights of confrontation between police and young people from the mainly north African Muslim communities in the north-eastern suburb.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399510.stm

I mean, c'mon - earlier in this thread you stated that the recent UK riots were between Asians and whites. If you didn't get that right, what makes you so sure you're getting this right?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Why is the BBC reporting it as such then?

Huh? Read what you posted. The BBC never said this was a racial thing. Non-Muslim crowds are entitled to get angry when teargas is fired into a mosque and the fact that the areas are predominantly Muslim doesn't mean that the 100 youths that are causing trouble are also Muslim. That's like saying that if there's a riot in a Jewish area, it must be jews that are rioting!

You're reading things into the BBC report that aren't there. The report says "Unemployment and social problems are rife in many of France's poorer suburban areas." That's about the closest they come to offering a reason for the problems. Not once do they mention religion or race as a the cause. And if you look at the pictures and videos, you'll see people of all races involved.

Originally Posted by Doofy

I mean, c'mon - earlier in this thread you stated that the recent UK riots were between Asians and whites. If you didn't get that right, what makes you so sure you're getting this right?

Oh come on! I started off writing about how the UK had had numerous race riots in recent times and that vmarks had to be blind to have missed what happened in 2001 and 2005. Then decided that it gave the wrong impression and cut it all down leaving a mixed reference between what happened in 2001 and 2005. You're right of course. Can't tell what religion they are, but assuming they're Muslim seems a stretch.

[Monique]

The BBC is reporting it as such because it makes better sensational press and makes us talk and the British hate the French.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Troll

First off vmarks, it's no wonder you have a completely skewed version of this thing if you read websites like France-echos!!!
Why don't you name some of these countries you're talking about that don't have ghettos. I don't know any country with a population the size of France's that doesn't have this problem.
Uhmm, did you miss the riots two weeks ago in the UK? You know, real race riots between Asians and whites.

In almost every other country that has ghettos, the police have no fear of entering them when needed for enforcement or prevention.

You made it sound as if every country in the world has a ghetto where the police are afraid to enter and the firefighters are called as a means of luring them to an ambush. You have to know that such a practice is atypical for most of the world.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Troll

Huh? Read what you posted. The BBC never said this was a racial thing. Non-Muslim crowds are entitled to get angry when teargas is fired into a mosque

I suppose the tear gas was fired into the mosque to subdue all the Hindus hiding there?

Originally Posted by Troll

and the fact that the areas are predominantly Muslim doesn't mean that the 100 youths that are causing trouble are also Muslim. That's like saying that if there's a riot in a Jewish area, it must be jews that are rioting!

That's fair enough. I'm extrapolating a little due to past experience.

Originally Posted by Troll

Oh come on! I started off writing about how the UK had had numerous race riots in recent times and that vmarks had to be blind to have missed what happened in 2001 and 2005. Then decided that it gave the wrong impression and cut it all down leaving a mixed reference between what happened in 2001 and 2005. You're right of course. Can't tell what religion they are, but assuming they're Muslim seems a stretch.

I'll let you off with the edit thing.
Your last statement is correct as far as Paris goes at this current time. It's completely incorrect as far as the UK goes - it's an absolute certainty that they were muslims in the UK events.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Monique

The BBC is reporting it as such because it makes better sensational press and makes us talk

That'd be really unlike the BBC, as they're very ethnically-friendly.

Originally Posted by Monique

and the British hate the French.

No we don't. We have friendly competition with the French but we don't hate them.

[vmarks]

Of course, there are other countries with rioting- even at this present moment, you're focused on France, and ignoring Denmark.

http://viking-observer.blogspot.com/...n-denmark.html appears to be the only English language page on it, and it's a blog post so ignore the comments and take the author for what he is- an opinionated person.

Oh, we got trouble
Right here in River City
Right here in River City
With a capital 'T' and that rhymes with 'P' and that stands for 'pool'
That stands for pool
We surely got trouble
We surely got trouble
Right here in River City
Right here

[Monique]

What proof is there that the police were chasing the young men. Wasn't there a good reason why they would be chasing them (if they were in fact doing it)? You can't take always the testimony of a biaised witness as true.

[Monique]

double post

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Troll

How is this point related to this story? The Paris violence has nothing to do with religion. It's not Muslim groups committing the violence.

There was a whole lot of 'discussion' going on in this thread about Muslims, that's what I was responding to...

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

Huh? Read what you posted. The BBC never said this was a racial thing. Non-Muslim crowds are entitled to get angry when teargas is fired into a mosque and the fact that the areas are predominantly Muslim doesn't mean that the 100 youths that are causing trouble are also Muslim. That's like saying that if there's a riot in a Jewish area, it must be jews that are rioting!

You're reading things into the BBC report that aren't there. The report says "Unemployment and social problems are rife in many of France's poorer suburban areas." That's about the closest they come to offering a reason for the problems. Not once do they mention religion or race as a the cause. And if you look at the pictures and videos, you'll see people of all races involved.

Oh come on! I started off writing about how the UK had had numerous race riots in recent times and that vmarks had to be blind to have missed what happened in 2001 and 2005. Then decided that it gave the wrong impression and cut it all down leaving a mixed reference between what happened in 2001 and 2005. You're right of course. Can't tell what religion they are, but assuming they're Muslim seems a stretch.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...855202,00.html

The defiant anti-government talk of Mohamed and Sidi is the norm among the disaffected Muslims of the estates after clashes with France’s heavyhanded riot police. After a seventh night of destruction, however, it was clear that they had a point.

M Sarkozy’s provocative tactics and his feuding with Dominique de Villepin, the Prime Minister, appear to have fed the unrest in districts that are permanent cauldrons of anger.

For a nation that's supposed to have all the answers they don't seem to be sharing those answers with the rowdy Muslim yoots.

But actually, I'd bet the Muslim organizations and their leaders have planned this and are just sitting back and watching their handiwork play out. You have to tip your cap to them...it's brilliant, actually.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

There was a whole lot of 'discussion' going on in this thread about Muslims, that's what I was responding to...

From the Wikipedia front page:

Rioting in Paris suburbs, triggered by the death of two Muslim teenagers, continues for a sixth consecutive night.

and the BBC wrote

...the riots illustrate that Muslims in the ghettos of Paris feel alienated due to French society's traditional values of assimilation, secularism, and due to French fears of "the worldwide rise of Islamic militancy," reporting that "the assertiveness of French Islam is seen as a threat not just to the values of the republic, but to its very security."

So yeah. There is and should be discussion in this thread about Muslims, for they seem to be the centerpiece in these riots.

cheers

W-Y

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

So yeah. There is and should be discussion in this thread about Muslims, for they seem to be the centerpiece in these riots.

cheers

W-Y

Cue: Daniel Pipes!

By the way, Pipes has a way of cutting through the BS and presenting information that is borne out by facts and events over time and anyone doing their due diligence will find it hard to unearth anyone as consistently accurate and painfully so to those who want to hide their secrets behind smokescreens and diversions and character assassination.

www.danielpipes.org/article/2100

The Islamic States of America?

by Daniel Pipes
FrontPageMagazine.com
September 23, 2004

The hardest thing for Westerners to understand is not that a war with militant Islam is underway but that the nature of the enemy's ultimate goal. That goal is to apply the Islamic law (the Shari‘a) globally. In U.S. terms, it intends to replace the Constitution with the Qur'an.

This aspiration is so remote and far-fetched to many non-Muslims, it elicits more guffaws than apprehension. Of course, that used to be the same reaction in Europe, and now it's become widely accepted that, in Bernard Lewis' words, "Europe will be Islamic by the end of the century."

Because of the American skepticism about Islamist goals, I postponed publishing an article on this subject until immediately after 9/11, when I expected receptivity to the subject would be greater (it was published in November 2001 as "The Danger Within: Militant Islam in America"). I argued there that

The Muslim population in this country is not like any other group, for it includes within it a substantial body of people—many times more numerous than the agents of Osama bin Ladin—who share with the suicide hijackers a hatred of the United States and the desire, ultimately, to transform it into a nation living under the strictures of militant Islam.

The receptivity indeed was greater, but still the idea of an Islamist takeover remains unrecognized in establishment circles – the U.S. government, the old media, the universities, the mainline churches.

Therefore, reading "A rare look at secretive Brotherhood in America," in the Chicago Tribune on Sept. 19 caused me to startle. It's a long analysis that draws on an exclusive interview with Ahmed Elkadi, the Muslim Brotherhood leader in the United States during 1984-94, plus other interviews and documentation. In it, the authors (Noreen S. Ahmed-Ullah, Sam Roe, and Laurie Cohen) warily but emphatically acknowledge the Islamists' goal of turning the United States into an Islamic state.

Over the last 40 years, small groups of devout Muslim men have gathered in homes in U.S. cities to pray, memorize the Koran and discuss events of the day. But they also addressed their ultimate goal, one so controversial that it is a key reason they have operated in secrecy: to create Muslim states overseas and, they hope, someday in America as well. …

Brotherhood members emphasize that they follow the laws of the nations in which they operate. They stress that they do not believe in overthrowing the U.S. government, but rather that they want as many people as possible to convert to Islam so that one day—perhaps generations from now—a majority of Americans will support a society governed by Islamic law.

This Brotherhood approach is in keeping with my observation that the greater Islamist threat to the West is not violence – flattening buildings, bombing railroad stations and nightclubs, seizing theaters and schools – but the peaceful, legal growth of power through education, the law, the media, and the political system.

The Tribune article explains how, when recruiting new members, the organization does not reveal its identity but invites candidates to small prayer meetings where the prayer leaders focus on the primary goal of the Brotherhood, namely "setting up the rule of God upon the Earth" (i.e., achieving Islamic hegemony). Elkadi describes the organization's strategic, long-term approach: "First you change the person, then the family, then the community, then the nation."

The French populace, by and large, have been conditioned to accept the Muslim plan. The community roll-out has now begun. Let's see how long it takes for the nation of France to be totally changed.



BTW, I was doing some digging and saw that vmarks introduced the newspaper expose Pipes referred to, to these pages last year!

[Spliffdaddy]

stop. stop. stop.

all of you.

This thread was intended to belittle France, its policies, and its citizens. And you turned it into some sort of worthwhile discussion. Some of you even make good points. Some have merit.

In essence, you've all ruined this thread.

Let's get back on topic, mkay?

Tell me how France sucks. Explain how much worse of a nation it is - compared to the USA.

[Troll]

It's not a race thing. It's not a religious thing. Look at the photo vmarks posted. Read any of the reports in the French papers. Even the BBC isn't calling it a race thing. The kids who were killed were Muslim and some of the people involved in the protests now are Muslim too. Big deal. If your point is to try to draw some parallel between this and terrorism, then ask yourself what kind of a Muslim is caught breaking into a shed? You think that teach that behaviour at fanatical mosques? And if we're going to start classifying criminals by their religion, then what conclusions do you wish to draw from the fact that the vast majority of crime in France is committed by Christians.

Some of you are just really desperate to label everything bad in this world "muslim". The log in your own eye and all of that.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

stop. stop. stop.

all of you.

This thread was intended to belittle France, its policies, and its citizens. And you turned it into some sort of worthwhile discussion. Some of you even make good points. Some have merit.

In essence, you've all ruined this thread.

Let's get back on topic, mkay?

Tell me how France sucks. Explain how much worse of a nation it is - compared to the USA.

I was thinking about this on the way into work this morning. I know it's partly meant ironically, but I'll tell you this. What's happening in Paris now is the most serious problem that society faces. It's what is breaking up the United States, it's fracturing Europe. It's what's already at the heart of international and local crime. It's at the heart of most of the wars on the planet and it's going to be the cause of the next few. The widening gulf between rich and poor and the discontent that breeds. That's what the riots in the cités are about. That's what the discontent in New Orleans was about, it's what the violence in Brazil and South Africa and Denmark and the UK is about. It's part of what Al Qaeda is about. It's what Palestine is about.

I grew up in a microcosm of that world and I've thought a lot about how you solve the problem and I haven't come up with a solution. And I think a lot of other people out there have done the same. Except that they do come up with solutions - dishonest solutions. Solutions that label the people committing the violence anti-establishment, anti-globalisation, terrorists, [insert racial epithet] thugs, looters, Islamic fundamentalists etc. That sort of compartamentalisation is a convenient way of explaining what's going on in society. It's easier to eliminate Islamic fundamentalist terrorists or anti-globalisation protesters than it is to eliminate the gulf between rich and poor. So blame it all on something tangible like the colour of their skin or their religion. That's what I think is behind the insistence of some people here to turn this into a religious conflict.

The people in the cité can't be mad that two kids were killed while committing a crime. They're angry because the kids are out there committing crime in the first place. They're angry because they see precisely the reaction I just described - a government that doesn't intervene to bridge the poverty divide and all of the sh1t that goes with being poor. They only see a government that kicks them when they're down. That comes in to beat them and arrest them when the delinquency the situation is breeding gets too much for the rich to handle.

I don't know what the solution to this problem is. I know that the solution doesn't involve letting the poor drown in their own filth by letting rampant crime get out of control. Sarkozy says the right things I think. That the solution to the problem is both to socially uplift the areas AND stop the crime, but how do you do that practically. And how do you do that without causing more harm than good.

One positive to come out of this is that I think that this incident is provoked by the fact that the French government, unlike many others, recognises the problem and is doing something (who knows if it's the right thing) to try to change things. This is a country criticised for being too socially minded and yet it's a social problem that's at the heart of this thing! I look at South Africa with it's Black Empowerment policies, Affirmative Action etc. and wonder if THEY maybe hold the key. I don't know. They're trying. But what sickens me is people using this situation to make their own political points. It's not just about France. Pointing at the poor in New Orleans and gloating about the failure of capitalism, pointing at the poor in Cuba and gloating about the failure of communism - it's all the same. We all face this problem. I think all of us feel uneasy about it and I suspect we all feel uneasy about labelling it a French problem or a capitalism problem or an Islamic terrorist problem. This is OUR problem and the sooner we see that we have it on local, regional and international levels, the sooner we can get some clever people to think about a solution and commit to resolving it. I think we try to solve it from time to time, but too often we're treating the symptoms.

[Troll]

Update:

The first two of the young people arrested over the "riots" were sentenced yesterday. They got 10 month sentences suspended for 7 months, so 3 months of time behind bars. The 18 year old was in possession of tear gas cannisters and arrested for assault. Both of them have prior criminal records.

Three others got suspended sentences and a sixth was exonerated.

Two admitted having thrown rocks at the Police. "I did not think," explains one who says he wants to become a Fireman!!! His lawyer described him as "a big child, completely immature." "I won't start again." promissed another.

The 4 others denied having thrown projectiles and said they were there out of curiousity and for excitement.

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,...-704172,0.html

[Y3a]

Seems they just wanna talk to those doing the violence. They are gonna have to put a curfew out, and shoot to kill, so the rioters will get the message - or a bullet in the head. Talk. LOL!!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Troll

I was thinking about this on the way into work this morning. I know it's partly meant ironically, but I'll tell you this. What's happening in Paris now is the most serious problem that society faces. It's what is breaking up the United States, it's fracturing Europe. It's what's already at the heart of international and local crime. It's at the heart of most of the wars on the planet and it's going to be the cause of the next few. The widening gulf between rich and poor and the discontent that breeds. That's what the riots in the cités are about. That's what the discontent in New Orleans was about, it's what the violence in Brazil and South Africa and Denmark and the UK is about. It's part of what Al Qaeda is about. It's what Palestine is about.

You can keep burying your head in the sand if you like. Just don't be surprised when the real reason bites you in the ass.

[Y3a]

There will ALWAYS be a disparity between rich & poor! That does NOT excuse ignorance, immaturity and violence.

[Y3a]

dbl post

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

It's not a race thing. It's not a religious thing. Look at the photo vmarks posted. Read any of the reports in the French papers. Even the BBC isn't calling it a race thing. The kids who were killed were Muslim and some of the people involved in the protests now are Muslim too. Big deal. If your point is to try to draw some parallel between this and terrorism, then ask yourself what kind of a Muslim is caught breaking into a shed? You think that teach that behaviour at fanatical mosques? And if we're going to start classifying criminals by their religion, then what conclusions do you wish to draw from the fact that the vast majority of crime in France is committed by Christians.

Some of you are just really desperate to label everything bad in this world "muslim". The log in your own eye and all of that.

In a desperate attempt to deny that religion has anything to do with the violence, Troll you are tearing away the factor which caused the violence in the first place.

Why are you so eager and determined to do so?

Oh, and the BBC not calling it a race thing? The Brits have very strict race speech laws don't they?

Also, political correctness is a HUGE factor contributing to this dynamic of discrimination, feeling of empowerment/entitlement, anger, violence and anyone got any clue to what comes next?

Societal blackmail.

"Well monsieur, if you wish to AVOID such things as happened here from happening in PARIS or of breaking out ALL OVER FRANCE, then you must allow the headscarves (or insert other 'demands' here) for the school girls."

Inch by inch.

˅ Read ˅ the ˅ sig ˅

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

Update:

The first two of the young people arrested over the "riots" were sentenced yesterday. They got 10 month sentences suspended for 7 months, so 3 months of time behind bars. The 18 year old was in possession of tear gas cannisters and arrested for assault. Both of them have prior criminal records.

Three others got suspended sentences and a sixth was exonerated.

Two admitted having thrown rocks at the Police. "I did not think," explains one who says he wants to become a Fireman!!! His lawyer described him as "a big child, completely immature." "I won't start again." promissed another.

The 4 others denied having thrown projectiles and said they were there out of curiousity and for excitement.

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,...-704172,0.html

Troll, you are subtly painting the picture of those perps to emphasize their youth and innocence however, the facts are that the terrorists planting ied's in Baghdad are probably the same age. And they are not only killing but dying for their crimes.

And you might say, "yes, but these yoots hurt no one. In fact it was two of their OWN who died!"

Ahhh, those two died while HIDING from police. They were electrocuted when they chose to HIDE from Police in a electrical sub station or the like.

Furthermore, in the psychology of law enforcement it's a well known fact that in a mob situation there are ALWAYS one or two people who will commit a relatively minor act but a CRUCIAL act in crossing a particular invisible boundary .

In the videos of looting during Katrina, you saw people standing around outside a store, then ONE or TWO people simply broke a window or a door and that allowed the situation to escalate.
They EMPOWERED the mob and greater damage was done and increased lawlessness occurred than had been to that point.

These criminals escalated the violence. Where will it end? No one knows. What they did was not a minor thing.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by mojo2

In a desperate attempt to deny that religion has anything to do with the violence, Troll you are tearing away the factor which caused the violence in the first place.

Mojo, the king of the vacuous post. Not a single bit of evidence in there to back up what you're saying. When there were race riots in the UK, the BBC and CNN and Le Monde call it that. No one - not the BBC, Le Monde, Le Figaro, Liberation, CNN, News 24, AFP - no one is saying that this is a religious thing.

But I did not deny that religion has NOTHING to do with it. I specifically said that ONE of the groups that wants to keep the banlieue ungovernable is the Islamic radical groups. The last thing they want is integration of the disaffected youth into French culture. They feed off the disaffected youth. But that is by far not the most powerful group involved. Drug traffikers, crime syndicates and gangs are far more important in this thing.

The problem is that you pop into discussions on France only to rubberneck at French misfortune. You seem to lack continuity in your interest. You have no clue what caused the violence in the first place which is why you suggest the headscarf ban has something to do with it. Here's what you're missing - 2 murders (one kid and one father) in the last 2 months have persuaded Sarkozy that he needs to get tougher in the banlieue. So, whereas in the past, the criminals had the run of the roost in the cité, it's now becoming more difficult. And so, when these two kids broke into a shed (with 10 of their mates), the cops reacted quicker than they normally do. And they were killed accidentally and THAT caused a rampage which the Police have met with violence that has fuelled the rampage. That is the cause. Nothing to do with headscarves or religion.

The banlieue all around Paris are filled with people. that by French standards are relatively poor. That's about all that binds them. Some of the areas where there has been violence are predominantly Muslim, others are not. People of all religions have been arrested. People of all religions have been involved in the peaceful protests against the deaths. Not once has any member of the two families, member of local or national government or any victim, person involved in the violence or any leader, religious or otherwise, suggested that this is about religion.

I mean this point is just absolutely ridiculous drivel from you!

Originally Posted by mojo2

"Well monsieur, if you wish to AVOID such things as happened here from happening in PARIS or of breaking out ALL OVER FRANCE, then you must allow the headscarves (or insert other 'demands' here) for the school girls."

You honestly think that this has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with headscarves?!!! Did you see any of the people marching in that crowd with banners about headscarves? Have you got a quote from anyone involved in this thing saying that headscarves is an issue? No you haven't. Here's why. Because by and large, Muslims in France (and Jews and Rastas and Christians and rappers and everyone else who can't wear a hat to school) accept the headgear ban. Sheesh, how out of touch with reality do you have to be to even suggest that the two are related. The only person I've ever heard mention that kind of link is Le Pen and HIS agenda is to derive power by mongering fear. What's YOUR agenda?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Troll

Mojo, the king of the vacuous post. Not a single bit of evidence in there to back up what you're saying. When there were race riots in the UK, the BBC and CNN and Le Monde call it that. No one - not the BBC, Le Monde, Le Figaro, Liberation, CNN, News 24, AFP - no one is saying that this is a religious thing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4401670.stm

Dalil Boubakeur, the head of the Paris mosque and the president of the French Council for the Muslim Religion, said living conditions for Muslim immigrants in the suburbs were unacceptable.

They "must be given the conditions to live with dignity as human beings", not in "disgraceful squats"

Read between the lines much Troll?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Troll, you are subtly painting the picture of those perps to emphasize their youth and innocence

Conspiracies are your forté aren't they. The foreign agents are subtly painting pictures. What I posted was a translation from the article. Additionally, I was showing that the first two that have been jailed (who BTW are NOT MUSLIM), had criminal records already.

Originally Posted by mojo2

Ahhh, those two died while HIDING from police. They were electrocuted when they chose to HIDE from Police in a electrical sub station or the like.

Why is this such a revelation to you? Last year, a young French, Christian (he was wearing a cross and a St Christopher) guy decided to break into our offices (located in a very nice area of Paris near the Champs Elysees). Got himself locked into an office unwittingly. We called the Police and he was arrested just before he jumped off the 4th floor balcony to try to escape. Criminals of all religions hide from Police and they do stupid things when the Police chase them. It happens every day.

What doesn't happen every day is that it gets turned into a cause celebre. What's the difference between this event and other murders in the banlieue? The Police reaction. Sarkozy has had enough and he's sending in the big guns. That's what changed and that's why the burning of cars (which has always gone on in the cités) has gone on for 7 nights. As I said, I don't know if Sarkozy is right or wrong to go about things this way, but pretending that this is part of a greater Muslim plan is ridiculous. There is no Muslim Illuminati deciding to keep Muslims poor and involved in crime! Just as there is no black, Albanian, Portugese, Serbian, Polish or Russian Illuminati keeping their people poor and disaffected.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Doofy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4401670.stm



Read between the lines much Troll?

Read between the lines?? Read the quote you provided. Read it again. It confirms precisely what I'm saying. You post the only bit of the whole report that mentions the word "Muslim", that does so in a way that just confirms MY point that it's the gap between rich and poor that is the root cause. He is saying clearly that people that are in social housing shouldn't be put into "disgraceful squats". He is raising living conditions and the gap between people in the cité and other French people as the reason for the violence. He does not say that religion is the fuel for the violence. He doesn't complain about discrimination against Muslims. Now go and read some French newspapers. Or heck, read what the BBC correspondent says is the cause. From the same article:

French politicians are facing up to the reality that many of the mainly immigrant populations in cities have long been in a state of chronic tension, says the BBC's European Affairs correspondent William Horsley.

Immigrants and their offspring make up 10% of France's population, but many are without French citizenship and the right to vote. They also suffer the highest rate of unemployment, and their relations with the police are generally difficult or hostile, our correspondent says.

Do you see the word Muslim there? Do you see the word religious persecution there? Do you see the word terrorism there? Immigrants that in dire straits.

Look, the West has this thing called globalisation. It has these things called import tariffs. It has this thing called quality of life that people in the rest of the world can only dream of. Instead of addressing the gap between rich and poor, Europe and America stand by and watch it expand. They make it expand by the way they structure the global economy. What's the result? People leave those failing, warring countries and they come to France and the UK and elsewhere. And there they find it difficult to break out. They stay poor, they get involved in crime, they find a society that is hostile towards them, a society that wants to stay rich and keep them poor. The reason these kids were breaking into that shed and the reason the Police reacted the way they did has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with the gap between rich and poor. You want to stop immigration which causes poverty which causes tension, which causes riots like these? Start thinking about why the African boys came to Paris in the first place and once there why they wound up breaking into a shed. And then tell me wtf religion has to do with that.

You probably don't WANT to see that because you like to believe that the world is a big flat playing field where everyone has the same opportunities and where you got to the top of the pile because you're better than the rest. You don't want to believe that you're a spoilt brat that lives off the suffering of others any more than I do. And that's why you prefer to call every Somali that picks up a gun, a psychopath, every Iraqi that joins the Insurgency a terrorist and every Ethiopian that enters Italy illegally, an illegal alien. Because dealing with the symptoms is so much easier.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

I was thinking about this on the way into work this morning. I know it's partly meant ironically, but I'll tell you this. What's happening in Paris now is the most serious problem that society faces. It's what is breaking up the United States, it's fracturing Europe. It's what's already at the heart of international and local crime. It's at the heart of most of the wars on the planet and it's going to be the cause of the next few. The widening gulf between rich and poor and the discontent that breeds. That's what the riots in the cités are about. That's what the discontent in New Orleans was about, it's what the violence in Brazil and South Africa and Denmark and the UK is about. It's part of what Al Qaeda is about. It's what Palestine is about.

I grew up in a microcosm of that world and I've thought a lot about how you solve the problem and I haven't come up with a solution. And I think a lot of other people out there have done the same. Except that they do come up with solutions - dishonest solutions. Solutions that label the people committing the violence anti-establishment, anti-globalisation, terrorists, [insert racial epithet] thugs, looters, Islamic fundamentalists etc. That sort of compartamentalisation is a convenient way of explaining what's going on in society. It's easier to eliminate Islamic fundamentalist terrorists or anti-globalisation protesters than it is to eliminate the gulf between rich and poor. So blame it all on something tangible like the colour of their skin or their religion. That's what I think is behind the insistence of some people here to turn this into a religious conflict.

The people in the cité can't be mad that two kids were killed while committing a crime. They're angry because the kids are out there committing crime in the first place. They're angry because they see precisely the reaction I just described - a government that doesn't intervene to bridge the poverty divide and all of the sh1t that goes with being poor. They only see a government that kicks them when they're down. That comes in to beat them and arrest them when the delinquency the situation is breeding gets too much for the rich to handle.

I don't know what the solution to this problem is. I know that the solution doesn't involve letting the poor drown in their own filth by letting rampant crime get out of control. Sarkozy says the right things I think. That the solution to the problem is both to socially uplift the areas AND stop the crime, but how do you do that practically. And how do you do that without causing more harm than good.

One positive to come out of this is that I think that this incident is provoked by the fact that the French government, unlike many others, recognises the problem and is doing something (who knows if it's the right thing) to try to change things. This is a country criticised for being too socially minded and yet it's a social problem that's at the heart of this thing! I look at South Africa with it's Black Empowerment policies, Affirmative Action etc. and wonder if THEY maybe hold the key. I don't know. They're trying. But what sickens me is people using this situation to make their own political points. It's not just about France. Pointing at the poor in New Orleans and gloating about the failure of capitalism, pointing at the poor in Cuba and gloating about the failure of communism - it's all the same. We all face this problem. I think all of us feel uneasy about it and I suspect we all feel uneasy about labelling it a French problem or a capitalism problem or an Islamic terrorist problem. This is OUR problem and the sooner we see that we have it on local, regional and international levels, the sooner we can get some clever people to think about a solution and commit to resolving it. I think we try to solve it from time to time, but too often we're treating the symptoms.

As a member of a racial minority, I understand the thought of those who, through no fault of their own, have the doors to opportunity closed to them. Who closes those doors?

The MAN! Whitey! Peckerwoods.

Yet, they say that "some of their best friends are colored."

Then let's look at who these best friends are.

They have the same values, the same education. maybe went to the same schools.

So, they are similiar to each other.

But don't the men who hire have colored friends who are SOMEWHAT different? Look at skin color, for instance!

Yes, but, most people don't CARE about the skin color, per se. They care about what it means. Just like my grandad always liked the way the WWII Nazi uniforms looked, he hated the Nazis. Skin color is a uniform. It gives a general clue as to what a person's values are. Two people can have different colors and be quite different in a number of ways, but if they aren't SIMILAR in one important way then they will not be friends and they MAY be discriminated against.

What is this important similarity?

I haven't read enough to know how closely science backs me up on this but the important similarities, IMHO, are these:

Willingness to work hard, diligently, honestly, and get along with everyone in whatever environment were talking about.

That they be supportive of the societal and governmental organizations that act as a gird or a framework upon which everything in this country/community derives strength and stability and assures the possibility of continuing the way of life we enjoy.

That certain basic fundamental assumptions are embraced, like, not doing anything illegal or associating with people who do. Not likely to physically endanger anyone. Not likely to prove to be an embarrassment.

When you look at ALL cases of dis-empowerment at the personal or community level, IMHO, IT ALWAYS boils down to these factors.

A few days ago either barbara or laura Bush said that kids shouldn't get tattoos if they want an easier time getting employment.

Why would this be true, if it is true?

(I say it is.) Because there's a lingering stigma that says most of the people who wear tats have a different set of values from those I mentioned above. Therefore, the manager or business owner will look for someone else. Sure, the tat girl might be a Sunday school tecaher and the person hired INSTEAD of tat girl could be dating a drug dealer.

That's the way it works! You don't have to like the game, just so you UNDERSTAND THE RULES.

With regard to the immigrant Muslims in France, they have multiple things going against them.

Immigrant. Color. Young. Muslim.

Immigrants are different than the natives of any country. Things that are different are suspect. Thus, not similar. There's strike one. They are colored. Some people still use color as a uniform to identify those with different values. Rightly or wrongly, strike two. Young. Everyone knows young people are suspect. They just can't escape it. Yet, every old person was once young. And if a young person has drive and ambition and is courteous and has good grades and APPEARS to have the right values (See values mentioned above) the hiring person may see him or herself in that young person and give them a chance. Muslim. For many people, the desire to NOT be unfair will prompt them to hire a Muslim. And, being just like any other person, that Muslim employee will do a good job or not. There should be no difference in regarding a person simply due to their religion. That is just wrong and abominable. But there IS a difference in religions.

And as people come to see for themselves and understand exactly what the religion of Islam calls for and what is happening BECAUSE of this religion then it becomes and has become a reason, an understandable reason why some people might not want to hire a Muslim or even rent to one.

There is something about the religion that forces their followers to take over whatever organization they are in and something about the religion that forces some of their followers to murder non-Muslims.

There is my analysis of the problem you describe.

The solution, at least for the muslims, is completely up to them. Or else, the non-Muslim world will impose IT'S solution which won't be as nice or easy.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Troll

Read between the lines?? Read the quote you provided. Read it again. It confirms precisely what I'm saying. You post the only bit of the whole report that mentions the word "Muslim", that does so in a way that just confirms MY point that it's the gap between rich and poor that is the root cause.

Your point is wrong. Rich and poor has nothing to do with it. It's about territory.

Originally Posted by Troll

He is saying clearly that people that are in social housing shouldn't be put into "disgraceful squats".

No. Read it again. He's saying that muslims, not people, who are in social housing shouldn't be put into "disgraceful squats". He doesn't give a crap about non-muslims. This is part of the problem - non-integration. And why the non-integration? Because they don't want infidels on muslim territory (hey, sounds like what's happening in Iraq, doesn't it?).

Well hey, it's not the job of a government to house immigrants (of any religion). If it is, then make mine a ranch in Colorado.

Originally Posted by Troll

Look, the West has this thing called globalisation. It has these things called import tariffs. It has this thing called quality of life that people in the rest of the world can only dream of. Instead of addressing the gap between rich and poor, Europe and America stand by and watch it expand. They make it expand by the way they structure the global economy. What's the result? People leave those failing, warring countries and they come to France and the UK and elsewhere. And there they find it difficult to break out. They stay poor, they get involved in crime, they find a society that is hostile towards them, a society that wants to stay rich and keep them poor.

You do know that the participants in the 2001 UK "riots" in my city turned up in BMWs and Mercs, yes?

Originally Posted by Troll

every Ethiopian that enters Italy illegally, an illegal alien.

Ummm... By definition, every Ethiopian who enters Italy illegally is an illegal alien.



I'll say it again. This is about territory. It's about not wanting infidels policing muslim territory. There may be other opportunist criminal elements involved taking advantage of the situation but the root is territory.
If you think it's about anything else you're being hoodwinked by your political bias (so convenient to blame it all on the rich western capitalist again, isn't it?).

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

So if some Muslims were Nazis and that is now an indictment on all Muslims, shouldn't it also be an indictment on all Europeans?

If we can accept modern Europeans as good people despite the actions of some past Europeans, then why can't we accept modern Muslims as good people despite the actions of some past Muslims?

The subsets of Muslims who did and even continue to do horrible things are no different than the subsets of Europeans who did or even continue to do horrible things. Despite them, there are plenty of good European people and plenty of good Muslim people.

If a telemarketing call center manager has some CSR's who are dependable and ethical and others who are liars and schemers but the company says to them to 'make sales' they will still be who they are, personally and some will use ethical or non, or less abrasive ways to get the sales. Others will lie, cheat steal or whatever they can to make sales.

Some Muslims are very nice. Others are not. JUST LIKE ANYONE ELSE.

It is what they are CHARGED TO DO that makes them feared.

You might say that 'some telemarketers have given ALL telemarketers a bad name.' No, it's the company that tells them what and how to do it that is to blame.

Ultimately, a telemarketer who doesn't like being discriminated against can just leave the business.

Unfortunately, the Mulim who tries to change to a different religion is called an apostate.

And that can be a fatal condition for the apostate.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No. Read it again. He's saying that muslims, not people, who are in social housing shouldn't be put into "disgraceful squats". He doesn't give a crap about non-muslims.

He's the head of the Paris mosque and the head of the Muslim council (look up what that is before you reply). It's his job to represent Muslims!

Originally Posted by Doofy

This is part of the problem - non-integration. And why the non-integration? Because they don't want infidels on muslim territory (hey, sounds like what's happening in Iraq, doesn't it?).

So how do you explain the violence in non-Muslim areas last night then?

Originally Posted by Doofy

Well hey, it's not the job of a government to house immigrants (of any religion).

Um, yes actually it is the job of government to house immigrants. The cité are predominantly government run housing projects. Remember immigrants dying in fires in Paris? The complaint is that the living conditions of immigrants is bad. And the guy who speaks for Muslims says the same thing that the mayor of Clichy sous Bois says, which is the same thing Delanoe says which is the same thing Sarkozy says which is the same thing the families of the victims say. Nothing to do with Muslims trying to keep infidels off their territory and if you had a single scrap of evidence to support that, you would have posted it by now.

Originally Posted by Doofy

I'll say it again. This is about territory. It's about not wanting infidels policing muslim territory.

Right okay, so rewind about two weeks when the Muslim community urged Sarkozy to enforce laws in the balieue after a father was gunned down by a gang. Why did they invite the infidel into their territory then? Also, how do the Muslims get all of these non-Muslims to do jail time for them?

It may be about territory but not Muslim territory. Criminals controlling their territory. Showing the cops that they must stay away, probably. Nothing to do with religion.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by mojo2

With regard to the immigrant Muslims in France, they have multiple things going against them. Immigrant. Color. Young. Muslim.

What about all of the non-Muslim immigrants? Do you have any proof that being Muslim makes life harder for French immigrants? If so, please post it, otherwise, let's scratch Muslim-ness from your list. Our firm is a French employer and Muslimness is no barrier whatsoever to employment here. Most of the time we don't even know what religion our employees are. Look at where the immigrants come from: the Caribbean, the Atlantic islands, countries like the Congo, Haiti, Eatern Europe, Ivory Coast, Algeria and think about what goes on in those countries. Their situation isn't like a black man living in America. It's altogether more precarious.

What you seem to ignore is that a refugee (economic or political) has many other disadvantages too. They arrive with nothing at all. As a result, they wind up at the mercy of the government. They may not speak the language, they often have psychological problems as a result of violence they've suffered. Most importantly, they can't work because they do not have working papers.

Originally Posted by mojo2

And as people come to see for themselves and understand exactly what the religion of Islam calls for and what is happening BECAUSE of this religion then it becomes and has become a reason, an understandable reason why some people might not want to hire a Muslim or even rent to one.

Even if you had a point, you only offer an explanation for the Muslims involved in these riots. What about the non-Muslims. What's driving them if not their evil religion? And what is this Muslim world that will impose itself. The French state is neither Muslim nor Christian nor Jewish nor any other religion. That's precisely what the headgear ban is about!

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

Conspiracies are your forté aren't they. The foreign agents are subtly painting pictures. What I posted was a translation from the article. Additionally, I was showing that the first two that have been jailed (who BTW are NOT MUSLIM), had criminal records already.
Why is this such a revelation to you? Last year, a young French, Christian (he was wearing a cross and a St Christopher) guy decided to break into our offices (located in a very nice area of Paris near the Champs Elysees). Got himself locked into an office unwittingly. We called the Police and he was arrested just before he jumped off the 4th floor balcony to try to escape. Criminals of all religions hide from Police and they do stupid things when the Police chase them. It happens every day.

THIS HAPPENS EVERY DAY? (This is your quote here, btw...)

Thursday
Police were called to Clichy-sous-Bois after a dozen youths tried to break into a hut on a building site. Two of them apparently ran away from the Police, scaled the wall of an electrical relay station, touched a transformer and died. The Police say that they did not chase the boys and even if they had, the deaths are hardly the cops' fault. The Paramedics come to help the boys and are attacked by a gang of thugs. It is common for youths to attack the "Pompiers" when they intervene in the cité. Don't ask me why. 15 vehicles are burned during the night. The Police decide to react.

And as far as my being king of whatever you called it, I appreciate the title, and so you can imagine the distress I feel at having to exchange barbs with...well, noblesse oblige and all that!

What doesn't happen every day is that it gets turned into a cause celebre. What's the difference between this event and other murders in the banlieue? The Police reaction. Sarkozy has had enough and he's sending in the big guns. That's what changed and that's why the burning of cars (which has always gone on in the cités) has gone on for 7 nights. As I said, I don't know if Sarkozy is right or wrong to go about things this way, but pretending that this is part of a greater Muslim plan is ridiculous. There is no Muslim Illuminati deciding to keep Muslims poor and involved in crime! Just as there is no black, Albanian, Portugese, Serbian, Polish or Russian Illuminati keeping their people poor and disaffected.

Ok. Just wait until you find out more that what I'm saying is true and you'll be *beep-beep-beep* back tracking to admit that, yes moj, you were right, AGAIN!

Hahaha! I was too late! I read where you posted an admission that the Islamic leadership DOESN'T want the Muslim community to assimilate! And then you edited it out. Hahahaha!

[mojo2]

BACKGROUND

Discrimination
An unequal job market is feeding racial tensions

Deaths that set Clichy ablaze
Headscarf defeat riles Muslims
Ghettos shackle French Muslims
Country profile: France

HAVE YOUR SAY

Paris riots: Your reaction

AUDIO/VIDEO
Scenes of riots


Immigrants and their offspring make up 10% of France's population, but many are without French citizenship and the right to vote. They also suffer the highest rate of unemployment, and their relations with the police are generally difficult or hostile, our correspondent says.

Dalil Boubakeur, the head of the Paris mosque and the president of the French Council for the Muslim Religion, said living conditions for Muslim immigrants in the suburbs were unacceptable.

They "must be given the conditions to live with dignity as human beings", not in "disgraceful squats".

Maybe the next group of immigrants who arrive should settle in your community, Troll, or your home and then, when they can't won't or simply don't assimilate they should demand that YOU should give them better living conditions! (BTW, they were ok living conditions when they moved in!)

Cut and pasted from the BBC link Doofy posted.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Cut and pasted from the BBC link Doofy posted.

Oh please. I grew out of that debating style around about the time I discovered Crayola. Around about that time I learned that anyone can play that game:

From the link Doofy posted;

Wednesday night's violence erupted in 10 areas across the Paris department of Seine-Saint-Denis, home to poor, largely immigrant communities with high levels of unemployment.

Mr Sarkozy has caused controversy by labelling the rioters as "scum" and saying many of the suburbs need "industrial cleaning", but Mr de Villepin has preached a more conciliatory message, urging ministers not to "stigmatise" vast areas.

Immigrants and their offspring make up 10% of France's population, but many are without French citizenship and the right to vote. They also suffer the highest rate of unemployment, and their relations with the police are generally difficult or hostile, our correspondent says.

You guys need to read more:

Le Monde: Banlieues en colère : aux origines de la crise
The Independent: http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article324306.ece - no mention of religion
ABC News: http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ory?id=1276521 - no mention of religion
Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...=1811&ito=1490 -sigh ... no mention of religion.

All you have is a comment from a guy who's job it is to talk about Muslims saying that poor living conditions are the cause. You sound just like the right wing thugs that turn everything into a Muslim, foreign conspiracy. Give it up. You've been hit out of the park.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

What about all of the non-Muslim immigrants? Do you have any proof that being Muslim makes life harder for French immigrants? If so, please post it, otherwise, let's scratch Muslim-ness from your list. Our firm is a French employer and Muslimness is no barrier whatsoever to employment here. Most of the time we don't even know what religion our employees are. Look at where the immigrants come from: the Caribbean, the Atlantic islands, countries like the Congo, Haiti, Eatern Europe, Ivory Coast, Algeria and think about what goes on in those countries. Their situation isn't like a black man living in America. It's altogether more precarious.

What you seem to ignore is that a refugee (economic or political) has many other disadvantages too. They arrive with nothing at all. As a result, they wind up at the mercy of the government. They may not speak the language, they often have psychological problems as a result of violence they've suffered. Most importantly, they can't work because they do not have working papers.
Even if you had a point, you only offer an explanation for the Muslims involved in these riots. What about the non-Muslims. What's driving them if not their evil religion? And what is this Muslim world that will impose itself. The French state is neither Muslim nor Christian nor Jewish nor any other religion. That's precisely what the headgear ban is about!

Re-read my post and you will see I addressed ALL conditions of discrimination.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Troll

The Independent: http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article324306.ece - no mention of religion
Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...=1811&ito=1490 -sigh ... no mention of religion.

Neither allowed to mention religion without substantial penalties.

Originally Posted by Troll

ABC News: http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ory?id=1276521 - no mention of religion

The majority of Americans are unaware of how such things occur - because freedom is endemic in the US, most don't understand that there are people out there who don't want freedom.

Originally Posted by Troll

All you have is a comment from a guy who's job it is to talk about Muslims saying that poor living conditions are the cause.

And substantial amounts of precedent.

Originally Posted by Troll

You sound just like the right wing thugs that turn everything into a Muslim, foreign conspiracy.

And hey, guess what? You sound just like the left wing morons that turn everything into a western, capitalist conspiracy.

Do yourself a favour. Go find any country which has recently become "islamic". Then go look at the history of that country and find out how they did it.

[Monique]

It is not up to the government to do everything for the immigrants; it is up to the immigrants to find work, to find a place to stay. Stop being so lazy and do something to adapt yourself to the country you are moving to.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Monique

It is not up to the government to do everything for the immigrants; it is up to the immigrants to find work, to find a place to stay. Stop being so lazy and do something to adapt yourself to the country you are moving to.

Yeah okay, but if the French government decides that it IS going to take responsibility for immigrants, then it needs to do something better than put them into ghettos outside Paris and buildings that routinely burn down IN Paris.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Doofy

And hey, guess what? You sound just like the left wing morons that turn everything into a western, capitalist conspiracy.

It's no conspiracy. I don't believe that the world economic order is the result of a coordinated conspiratous plan. And I don't believe capitalism is to blame either. I specifically said that communism had caused a gap too! Frankly, it doesn't matter to me how the gap came to exist. It simply matters that there is a gap. I also sound like every single press agency that has reported on this. Poor, depressed ghettos breeding disaffected youths that commit crime and hate the cops go on a rampage just like they do every other week except that they do it for 7 nights in a row.

You guys on the other hand see an Islamo-fascist conspiracy to take over the world! No journalist so far dares to write about that. Predictably, as loony toons do, you say we're too blind to see it and too politically correct to report on it. But the possibility also exists that you're just cuckoo and so afraid of the ghosts under the bed that you see something that isn't there; something a sane reporter would get fired for reporting about unless he worked for News of the World. Predictably, you also have nothing to back up your claims.

That Aberdeen (Mojo2), the guy who had to change logins because of the poor rep he got for his crackpot conspiracy theories (like the one about foreign agents using MacNN to affect US democracy), spews this sort of crazy stuff is predictable. Why you fall for it, I don't know. Although, as I said before, I think the demonisation of Muslims that you lot engage in is the same scapegoat game played endless times before. You're avoiding the real issues as others have.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by mojo2

If a telemarketing call center manager has some CSR's who are dependable and ethical and others who are liars and schemers but the company says to them to 'make sales' they will still be who they are, personally and some will use ethical or non, or less abrasive ways to get the sales. Others will lie, cheat steal or whatever they can to make sales.

Some Muslims are very nice. Others are not. JUST LIKE ANYONE ELSE.

It is what they are CHARGED TO DO that makes them feared.

You might say that 'some telemarketers have given ALL telemarketers a bad name.' No, it's the company that tells them what and how to do it that is to blame.

Ultimately, a telemarketer who doesn't like being discriminated against can just leave the business.

Unfortunately, the Mulim who tries to change to a different religion is called an apostate.

And that can be a fatal condition for the apostate.

Try going to a mosque some time and see if that's true.

Yes, in some mosques they might preach that kind of crap. In most, they do not.

[Kerrigan]

As it usually goes, the continental Europeans of MacNN deceive themselves to the point where they can't even see the issue clearly. The riots in the north eastern area are between Muslims/North Africans and the police, full stop. People like Troll spin this until it no longer makes sense, but the truth is that the rioting is driven by poor race relations in Paris.

This is what happens when you allow waves of unskilled, hopeless immigrants into your country: they will bring your cities down to their level. I have personally been through St-Denis several times, out of sheer curiousity, and I find that the district looks as though it has been directly transplanted from North Africa. It is a sad sight.

Flame away.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Troll

You guys on the other hand see an Islamo-fascist conspiracy to take over the world! No journalist so far dares to write about that. Predictably, as loony toons do, you say we're too blind to see it and too politically correct to report on it. But the possibility also exists that you're just cuckoo and so afraid of the ghosts under the bed that you see something that isn't there

It's real easy Troll.

1) Go read the koran and hadiths.
2) Go look at the history of countries "recently islamicised".

All the evidence is there if you take your blinkers off and simply look at it.

Let's look at a statement I made earlier: "all conflicts involving muslims are about territory". If it's wrong, name me one conflict where it's not about territory. We'll exclude OBL's bunch of whackos from this test, just to be sure that we're not actually talking about just the terrorists.

[Spliffdaddy]

^That's probably true.

Although, to be fair, nearly all conflicts are about territory.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Although, to be fair, nearly all conflicts are about territory.

This is true. However, muslim territorial conflict tends not to be just about control, but also tends to include pushing out any infidels once they've secured control. Exclusivity... Happening all the way from Kosovo to The Sudan to the main park in my nearest city (if you're not muslim you don't go in there at night. Period).