[Doofy]

Amen Shif.

[design219]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

"Free speech" in no way gives anyone permission to say anything they want, especially harrassment or verbal/written abuse. Spray painting racial slurs is in no way protected under any part of the constitution.

Amen Adam.

[0157988944]

Also, why are "the Asians" who get mad about the Miley photo liberal? Sounds like you're taking the opportunity to equate things that have nothing to do with each other to get a jab in a liberals.. pretty elementary.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Actually, outside of the workplace, I've seen people get a hell of a lot more flak for talking about their conservative beliefs, both religiously and politically.

A guy wearing a freethinkers' society shirt on the bus is seen as a forward-thinking, open-minded progressive. A guy wearing a "Jesus died for my sins" shirt, on the other hand, is seen as a hyperconservative "fundie" Christian who shouldn't shove his viewpoints on others.

I don't just pull this out of my ass, either. I have seen in far too many situations, both online and IRL, open hatred, disrespect, and hostility toward people who aren't afraid to show the world that they don't support the liberal agenda.

On the bus this morning, I was talking to my neighbor about how I thought that giving money to black kids just for being black was racist, since it discriminates against white people. He started looking really nervous and tried to get me to shut up, because he was afraid of people around us hearing what I was saying.

Screw that. If I'm not allowed to say anything that might offend a liberal black atheist lesbian, then you better be damn sure you don't say anything that might offend a conservative white christian straight male.

Or, we could all just play nice and quit getting our damn undies in a bunch every time someone makes us feel bad. Hate speech is not a crime. It's this thing that we seem to have forgotten, yet is still guaranteed by the constitution...you know, that thing called freedom of speech. The fact is, while spraypainting "N!GGER" on a black guy's front door is a really cruel thing to do, the fact that it's a racial epithet does not make it any more of a crime (or any worse, really) than painting a frowny face instead.

See, what I've noticed is that when the liberal left types find something offensive, they go ballistic and it turns into a freaking federal case. When conservative right types find something offensive, they might get annoyed, but you don't see articles on Google News blasting someone for calling a Christian a fundie. Yet when Miley Cyrus takes a group picture with people squinting their eyes, the liberal Asians decide it's worth a $4bil lawsuit.

And, on a more personal example, I apparently caused some stupid chick on OKCupid to cry her eyes out for several hours because I wrote a post on that site about how stupid it was to only post "MySpace angle" photos on your profile. Sorry, but get the hell over yourself. You can't avoid offending people. Period. No matter what you do or say, someone somewhere can easily find some way to take offense at it. People need to quit obsessing over this self-esteem BS and realize that, as Eleanor Roosevelt once said, "nobody can make you inferior without your consent". People choose to be offended by anything. You can either choose to cause a sh!tstorm, or you can choose to be the better person and move on with your life.

I honestly don't really understand where our views contradict, except in terms of ideological loyalty. Of course you can't always avoid offending people. But by the same token, you can't reasonably expect to avoid the reaction of the people you have offended. It's the defensiveness to the reaction that's a problem, on both sides of the ideological spectrum. If racial minorities should "just get over it" with respect to the injustices they have experienced, perhaps religious conservatives should do the same.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Even when people do stupid things like that blasphemy project on YouTube or whatever it was, where people made videos of themselves committing "the unforgivable sin" (denying the existence of God), Christians are screamed at for being close minded and "fundies" for vocalizing their offense at that kind of behavior.

I find that comical, since it isn't what those particular verses are saying. Seems to me it's just a bunch of losers who decided to make seemingly controversial videos, because it's the "cool" thing to do. They're only doing it for shock value and it means absolutely nothing.

To grieve the Holy Spirit is to know in your heart, and without doubt, that God exists and interacts with you, and then willfully denounce God and "His" works. See, it would require perfect faith or knowledge, and then to turn your back while still knowing. As you can imagine, that's an extremely rare thing.

Sorry to diverge from the topic, but I thought I'd shine some light on that. It's been misinterpreted for so long the actual meaning has almost been lost.

[Railroader]

Since this is a confessional thread, I'll add my own little story:

I used to work for the residence halls for a quite liberal university. I believe I was hired because I marked "hispanic" on the application form. I was certainly the whitest person employed. Actually, I was the only non-black person employed. One night while playing cards with a few other members of staff (all liberal blacks) I got tired of the racist comments being thrown around. I heard one girl say she "jewed" a guy down at a garage sale and another girl complain because he date ended up being "dutch". During an opportune time during the card playing I accused another played of "renegging". The silence in the room was deafening. All of them got this "HA! Gotcha whitey" look on their faces. The night ended quickly and we all went to bed. The next morning, I was called to the director's office and told I was immediately fired, evicted form the dorms, and possibly would be brought to the dean to be booted from school for using such a racist term. I looked at her in befuddlement. When I asked her what word I used, she replied "Oh, you know". I said, "Was it 'Jewed' "? She looked at me puzzlingly and said "no". I said "was it 'Dutch' ". Again the puzzled look. She then said it was "renigged". I asked her if she meant "reneged, as in renegotiated". The look of deep disappointment was evident. Whitey would not be put down today. Headlines would not be written about the racist white boy being kicked from school. I then informed her about how the other employees used the racist terms they had used. You know what their punishment was? A verbal talking to about racial sensitivity.

Later in the semester I also used "Nipponese" correctly and had another office visit.

We currently have two Liberian boys living with us, and the racist looks these boys get angers me to the very core. And most of it is from blacks in black owned stores. I don't get a second look, but these kids are stared at the entire time they are shopping.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

I definitely agree (once again) that the cartoonist was being dense, but I am concerned that we can never again use monkeys and apes for humor, because they're friggin' hilarious.

I disagree. I showed this cartoon to a few unsuspecting friends of mine, both the rabid liberals and rabid conservative types and they all could NOT believe their eyes. Yeah people had no problem with comparing Bush to a chimp (because he looked exactly like one) but it was just internet junk, not the actual media. Would all you defenders who are saying that it's all in people's minds that there's a really sinister racist intent behind this cartoon be fine if this caught on and Obama became frequently or always portrayed as a monkey in cartoons? How about if all black politicians get portrayed that way from now on?

Or are you serious when you say that I should be interpreting the chimp to be Pelosi?

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by mrtew

Yeah people had no problem with comparing Bush to a chimp (because he looked exactly like one) but it was just internet junk, not the actual media. Would all you defenders who are saying that it's all in people's minds that there's a really sinister racist intent behind this cartoon be fine if this caught on and Obama became frequently or always portrayed as a monkey in cartoons?

I fail to see how portraying Obama as a monkey is worse than portraying Bush as a monkey. To me, they’re completely parallel, except that the opportunities for ‘separated at birth?’ diptychs are fewer with Obama than with Bush, as Bush’s facial features were indeed a bit more similar to certain apes. But apart from that, they’re equally offensive.

People who have no problem comparing Bush to a chimp, but take offence and “could NOT believe their eyes” at this cartoon that—not even directly, even—compared Obama to one are being hypocritical, if you ask me (which, granted, you didn’t).

[design219]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

I fail to see how portraying Obama as a monkey is worse than portraying Bush as a monkey.

I guess I can understand that as I don't think your country has anywhere near the same history of racism that America has. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[design219]

http://www.yesbutnobutyes.com/archiv....html#comments

This site has started a replacement caption contest. Some are pretty good.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by design219 

I guess I can understand that as I don't think your country has anywhere near the same history of racism that America has. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You think denmark wasn't in the slave business?
I am sure the Virgin Islands were worked and developed by little blond Scandinavians while they owned them.

I think what his country doesn't have to do is indulge professional race baiters who egg on a gullible populace by designating anything they see fit as "racism" so that they have something to justify their profession.

You know what I am waiting for... a good old public effigy burning of Obama in DC. I can't think of any president in my lifetime who didn't have one of him strung up and set ablaze by his critics at least once in their term.
I also can't remember that situation being made into anything other than an annoyance with little public fanfare. Just wait for it to happen to this president though. The very same sort of people who in years previous would defend it as an act of dissent are going to be calling for hate crime charges to be filed.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Indeed. Anyone who would claim that it isn't a reasonable interpretation to associate the monkey with Obama is simply woefully (and perhaps willfully) ignorant of the longstanding history of white media associating blacks with apes. Now perhaps that wasn't the intent of the author. But nevertheless, it's still a reasonable interpretation and someone on the editorial board should have had a clue. To dismiss the widespread outrage this has sparked by pretending that Al Sharpton is the only one making a fuss only makes the motivations of the NY Post even more suspect.

OAW

I gotta agree with OAW on this one. I'm looking at the cartoon and my first thought was; "what the hell is this supposed to be saying?" If it's the "monkeys at the typewriter" analogy, why not a bunch of monkeys and why the reference to finding "someONE" else to write it? I also think it's a bit of a stretch to claim this relates to the chimp story because if it does, it's an even dumber, more insensitive cartoon than I originally thought.

The cartoon is so lame, and so sloppy, and so vague that it's just stupid enough to have been cut before print. It's not funny and it's not clear. There's simply too much room for speculation on it. I say dumb move and the notion that it is racist is at least as clear as the "monkeys at the typewriter" notion.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious 

I think what his country doesn't have to do is indulge professional race baiters who egg on a gullible populace by designating anything they see fit as "racism" so that they have something to justify their profession.

While I'm in general agreement on this point and have railed on it in the past, this cartoon IMO is just vague enough that it could as easily be construed as racist as a "monkey at the typewriter" meme.

You know what I am waiting for... a good old public effigy burning of Obama in DC. I can't think of any president in my lifetime who didn't have one of him strung up and set ablaze by his critics at least once in their term.
I also can't remember that situation being made into anything other than an annoyance with little public fanfare. Just wait for it to happen to this president though. The very same sort of people who in years previous would defend it as an act of dissent are going to be calling for hate crime charges to be filed.

I agree with your take here. Riot police will most assuredly be involved. Dissent in this form will no longer be fashionable.

[Doofy]

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

I fail to see how portraying Obama as a monkey is worse than portraying Bush as a monkey. To me, they’re completely parallel, except that the opportunities for ‘separated at birth?’ diptychs are fewer with Obama than with Bush, as Bush’s facial features were indeed a bit more similar to certain apes. But apart from that, they’re equally offensive. People who have no problem comparing Bush to a chimp, but take offence and “could NOT believe their eyes” at this cartoon that—not even directly, even—compared Obama to one are being hypocritical, if you ask me (which, granted, you didn’t).

Really? You don't see any difference between an internet email comparing a guy who looks and acts and thinks like a chimp to a chimp and an actual published political cartoon where police shoot a murderous primate and then mistake him for the first black president. Please tell me on what basis that cartoon compares Obama to a chimp aside from his race? Is it a joke on his ears? Is it a typewriter joke? Please. Tell me. Or can you at least admit it's a bit old-timey racist?

[Doofy]

Get over yourself.

White president = chimp.
Black 50% white, 45% black president = chimp.

No racism there.

White president = chimp.
Black 50% white, 45% black president =/= chimp.

Racism!

If you can't see that, then you're a racist. Simple as that.

[mrtew]

Guy that looks like a chimp = chimp

No racism there.

Black guy = chimp

Racism!

Meaningless argumentitive lead-in phrases like "Get over yourself"

Priceless

[Doofy]

How, exactly, does Bush look more like a chimp than Obama?

Here's a picture of a chimp, just in case you've never seen one:

[mrtew]

Well all black people look more like chimps than your average person. That why they were called monkeys for so long and why it's the mark of a racist to keep doing it. It's called stereotyping. Comparing Bush to a chimp isn't stereotyping or racism it's just funny. Hard to tell if you're playing dumb or if it's for real.

Anyway here's your answer to your question.... "How, exactly, does Bush look more like a chimp than Obama?"





Which one is cute harmless fun with photos and which is horrific racist nonsense?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Well all black people look more like chimps than your average person.

They do?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Anyway here's your answer to your question.... which one is cute harmless fun with photos and which is horrific racist nonsense?

Which day did Obama write the stimulus bill?

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

They do?

Well, maybe not but that's the stereotype.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Which day did Obama write the stimulus bill?

So you are saying the cartoon is a Pelosi reference eh? Ok fine then it's not racist. I'm all wet. You win. Brilliant. You always end up winning by just spewing nonsense until everyone else gives up. OK I give up.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

So you are saying the cartoon is a Pelosi reference eh? Ok fine then it's not racist. I'm all wet. You win. Brilliant. You always end up winning by just spewing nonsense until everyone else gives up. OK I give up.

What a lame-ass comeback.

Well, does the cartoon mention Obama anywhere? Did Obama write the stimulus package? Or are you simply inserting Obama into an otherwise innocent joke (one which I use all the time without reference to any humans whatsoever - i.e. "who mixed this? Your pet chimp?") so you can run around like a headless chicken shouting "racist, racist!"?

[SpaceMonkey]

Good God we must have covered this ground like at least 5 times in the thread already.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

How, exactly, does Bush look more like a chimp than Obama?

Here's a picture of a chimp, just in case you've never seen one:

Actually, almost all of us--your incredibly handsome self excluded--will look like chimps in some way because of the close genetic similarities between the primates and the homo sapiens. So, yeah, those trying to say Bush is more chimp-like than Obama are really pushing the boundaries of credulity with their claims.


As my post above stated, I didn't think at first that this cartoon was about Obama and I still think it is a stretch to say it is and to get so up in arms about the possibility that it is a reference to Obama.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

Good God we must have covered this ground like at least 5 times in the thread already.

Don't tell me - tell the loonies who're not quite getting it.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Well all black people look more like chimps than your average person.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

They do?

They do?

Methinks mrtew has himself bought into the stereotype of black=monkey with that statement.

[Shaddim]

I've been niggardly with my praise about how you're handling this, good job.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Don't tell me - tell the loonies who're not quite getting it.

You mean the doofs?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

As my post above stated, I didn't think at first that this cartoon was about Obama and I still think it is a stretch to say it is and to get so up in arms about the possibility that it is a reference to Obama.

Exactly. And even if it is about Obama, it's time to get over it. Calling a white guy a chimp then denying a black mixed race guy the opportunity to be called the same is racism, when all's said and done.

[dcmacdaddy]

I think the problem here with comparisons of Bush and Obama to chimps/monkeys/apes is the discourse framework people are operating in.

Most people who say Bush = chimp are operating in the framework of chimp = dumb and are using that analogy as a way to criticise Bush's intelligence (or lack thereof).

whereas

Most people who say Obama = chimp are operating on the framework of chimp = sub-human and are using that analogy as a way to criticise every aspect of Obama's existence. (And this discourse framework has a long, long history in the United States of being used to criticise black people simply because of the color of their skin.)


This is not to say one discourse framework is right and one is wrong but trying to draw comparisons between Bush = chimp and Obama = chimp are faulty because the underlying premise of the comparisons are different. It is possible to criticise both Bush and Obama without resorting to banal and trite clichés. But for most people, banal and trite is all they know.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

This is not to say one discourse framework is right and one is wrong but trying to draw comparisons between Bush = chimp and Obama = chimp are faulty because the underlying premise of the comparisons are different.

That's kind of a major assumption, D.

Obama did try to get into the Oval Office via the window the other week. And anyone who actually wants the job of Prez is dumber than a sack of hammers in the first place, if you ask me.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

That's kind of a major assumption, D.

I think most logicians or linguists would agree with me on this one.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Obama did try to get into the Oval Office via the window the other week.

See, now THIS is a great way to compare Bush to Obama and criticise them both. We've all seen the video of Bush in China making a big scene because he tried to walk out of a locked door after a press conference. And a lot of us have probably seen the footage of Obama trying to walk into the Oval Office through the window. So, this is a great similarity to say, "look how dumb these guys are, they don't even know what are doors and how to open them."

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And anyone who actually wants the job of Prez is dumber than a sack of hammers in the first place, if you ask me.

You'll get no arguments from me on that assertion.

[Shaddim]

WTF? Through a window? How did I miss this bit of news?

Images of Bush in Beijing come to mind.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

WTF? Through a window? How did I miss this bit of news?

Images of Bush in Beijing come to mind.

You can find the pics of Obama on various news sites. Walking back to the Oval Office he approached one of the full-length windows--designed in the same style as the door--and tried to enter it.

And it is funny in a dumb sorta way. Just like Bush in China. You kinda shake your head, laugh, and think "we elected some clown who doesn't know what is a door or how to open it?"

[Doofy]

Not forgetting him banging his head when he tried to board Marine One last week.

[Jawbone54]

Bush or Obama?

Better with vehicles