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Eug · Jun 7, 2007, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Oversoul

If it were a material fact, then I'd call for full disclosure. But I see haven't seen The Digital Bits or Greg Suarez taking money from the BDA for Bill Hunt to write his column or Greg to write his defense. Is Greg acting in anything but a personal and non-pecuniary interest? The latter is certainly the feel of his defense as I read it.

Not really. I agree with the mods at AVS. Basically nobody knew who Greg was, yet he didn't volunteer that he was one of the group at the Bits. At best, it's extremely bad netiquette, to say it politely. That thread was immediately closed when the mods found out he was a Bits guy, as it should have been.

Originally Posted by starman

Beta
Minidisc
UMD
Memory Stick

All failed. This isn't JUST about Beta. Sony has a terrible way of marketing their proprietary stuff, and Blu is no different. So many titles are now cancelled/delayed that the future of BR is in serious doubt.

Blu-ray isn't actually proprietary to Sony.

icruise · Jun 7, 2007, 02:08 PM

Does it really make any sense to say that because a flash memory or portable audio format "failed" that a totally unrelated HD video format will also fail? What do the two formats, markets, and technologies have in common? Very little, except Sony itself. You might as well say that because Apple backed the Pippin, the Newton, and eWorld, that the iPhone will be a flop.

Originally Posted by starman

So many titles are now cancelled/delayed that the future of BR is in serious doubt.

You're kidding, right?

starman · 02:28 PM

What relates them is they were formats that Sony made, thinking that people will buy them in droves. They didn't.

I'm still not convinced that Blu-Ray will win. I see NOTHING that shows this. Studios can be swayed at any moment so that argument doesn't hold up. I'm very apprehensive on the Fox and Disney delays. We've seen with Beta that better doesn't always win the war. Sure, BR has higher capacity but that doesn't mean that something silly can't push HD-DVD. Cost is a big, BIG factor with HD now. TVs are dropping in price but not to the point where people aren't pushing their wallets to buy them. With BR at TWICE the cost of HD-DVD for the hardware, it's a compelling reason to go with HD-DVD.

I bought the HD-DVD and BR versions of Superman Returns and there's no difference between them (as other reviewers have stated). Since the BR and HD-DVD formats are just TRANSPORTS for the same stream on some titles, there shouldn't be a difference anyway.

So what's left? Features? Size? Price? Studio support? NONE of them are the single factor to push BR or it would have crushed HD-DVD last summer.

Oh, and if BR is so badass, why aren't studios pushing the discs out the door? Where's Predator? Star Trek? Die Hard? Bond (older)? Star Wars? You can only watch crap like "50 First Dates" so often.

EDIT: I just thought of one major advantage HD-DVD has over BR: No region coding.

Eug · 02:40 PM

The Sony BDP300 is $425 at Tech Depot. That's $75 off MSRP. That's a pretty good deal for a player with 1080p support and 6-channel analogue audio outputs.

However, it's still too high for entry level. I'm not sure if it supports Blu-ray Profile 1.1 either.

Originally Posted by starman

I just thought of one major advantage HD-DVD has over BR: No region coding.

Yeah, it's pretty nice. I just picked up a couple of HD DVDs from the UK. Plus, some of the Blu-ray exclusives are on HD DVD in Europe so some of the American HD DVD guys get their fill that way, without having to resort to getting dual players.

I'm still hoping for that $299 dual-format player though.

Oversoul · Jun 7, 2007, 04:21 PM

Unfortunately, there's some doubt as to whether the BDP-S300 will have 5.1 analogue out. Specifications on SonyStyle's product page show:

Analog Audio Output(s)
2 ch; 1 (Rear)

SonyStyle

Eug · Jun 7, 2007, 10:33 PM

In truth, I personally don't give a damn about 5.1 analogue outputs.

However, it seems many of the people looking forward to this sub $500 Blu-ray player were looking forward to those. They won't be happy. Without the 5.1 analogue out, it becomes a lot less interesting to many in this price range.

Eug · Jun 8, 2007, 12:06 AM

Gizmodo Video: Problems With Blu-ray's BD-J Spec Causes Headaches For Early Adopters

Remember when we talked about inconsistent Blu-ray BD-Java implementation and how it would cause problems for users? This video illustrates what we mean. A guy recorded himself updating the firmware of his Sony Blu-ray player, then attempting to go and play the Liar's Dice game in Pirates of the Caribbean 2. The end result is comical.

jokell82 · Jun 8, 2007, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

In truth, I personally don't give a damn about 5.1 analogue outputs.

However, it seems many of the people looking forward to this sub $500 Blu-ray player were looking forward to those. They won't be happy. Without the 5.1 analogue out, it becomes a lot less interesting to many in this price range.

Why is anyone looking for 5.1 analog out? Would the DAC on the player be better than a standalone receiver? Methinks not on a sub-$500 player...

Eug · Jun 8, 2007, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Why is anyone looking for 5.1 analog out? Would the DAC on the player be better than a standalone receiver? Methinks not on a sub-$500 player...

Because lots of people have analogue inputs. Not everyone has a receiver that is capable of dealing with high-bandwidth 6-channel HDMI audio.

P.S. I'm guessing the DAC on the Sony is actually quite reasonable.

Dakarʒ · Jun 8, 2007, 09:03 AM

I have a 5.1 analog out. I have to say I've liked it better than the optical out.

Edit: on reg DVDs

Montezuma58 · Jun 8, 2007, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Why is anyone looking for 5.1 analog out? Would the DAC on the player be better than a standalone receiver? Methinks not on a sub-$500 player...

The point of analog outputs is that you won't have to upgrade your audio system. You'd be able to take advantage of uncompressed or loss-less compressed audio if you have an audio system with multi channel analog in and without HDMI inputs.

Eug · Jun 10, 2007, 11:58 AM

Crutchfield has the Toshiba HD-A2 for $199.99, with $10.99 shipping in the US.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jun 10, 2007, 12:17 PM

Workaround Found for Toshiba HD-XA2 Low Bass Issues | High-Def Digest

Montezuma58 · Jun 10, 2007, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Crutchfield has the Toshiba HD-A2 for $199.99, with $10.99 shipping in the US.

HHGregg is giving a free HD-A2 with the purchase of a TV of $999 or more.

Eug · Jun 10, 2007, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Montezuma58

HHGregg is giving a free HD-A2 with the purchase of a TV of $999 or more.

I was predicting this would happen on Black Friday, with Chinese HD DVD players.

I guess I was wrong on both counts.

jokell82 · Jun 10, 2007, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Crutchfield has the Toshiba HD-A2 for $199.99, with $10.99 shipping in the US.

Holy crap! I knew my $249 deal would eventually be beat, but I didn't think it'd be this fast!

Veltliner · Jun 10, 2007, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by starman

I just thought of one major advantage HD-DVD has over BR: No region coding.

Absolutely! I hate companies restricting their customers where to buy and play their discs.

Region coding prevents me to send movies as presents to Europe, and locks me out of all regional releases of European movies that do not reach the USA.

The region coding made sense for film studios at the time when movies first came out in the USA, and only later (often months later) in other parts of the world. Today they have the same roll-out dates world-wide (possibly in order to prevent word of mouth, what garbage the latest blockbuster was). But today region coding is just customer kicking.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jun 12, 2007, 04:11 PM

Hold on to your panties HD fans! Even at $199 and #1 player sales on Amazon something still seems to push consumers to BR. Must be the whole BR studio support thing and not HD's must have Java PiP.

"Toshiba's shipping numbers for HD DVD will be scaled back, the company's digital consumer head Yoshihide Fujii has revealed. Having first planned to sell 1.8 million movie players to Canada and the US by the end of 2007, the company now says it has reduced the forecast to just 1 million -- a 44 percent drop, a second senior manager said. The cut has been attributed to low existing sales, which would make it difficult to recover in the second half of the year.

"Such news quickly follows the company's boasting that it reportedly leads HD movie player sales, commanding 60 percent of the player business versus its opponent, Blu-Ray. In the new development, however, the company has admitted that its figures didn't include Sony's PlayStation 3, which it considers only a game console despite its ability to play Blu-Ray movies. Most PS3 owners buy movies only sparingly compared to those who buy the players alone, claims Universal Studios Home Entertainment VP Ken Graffeo."

Once again, I DID by my PS3 for the BR, so did many others. Pretty crafty for HD to not include even a reasonable 20% PS3's in player sales for mostly movies.

Electronista | Toshiba HD DVD sales far lower than planned

jokell82 · Jun 12, 2007, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Hold on to your panties HD fans! Even at $199 and #1 player sales on Amazon something still seems to push consumers to BR. Must be the whole BR studio support thing and not HD's must have Java PiP.

"Toshiba's shipping numbers for HD DVD will be scaled back, the company's digital consumer head Yoshihide Fujii has revealed. Having first planned to sell 1.8 million movie players to Canada and the US by the end of 2007, the company now says it has reduced the forecast to just 1 million -- a 44 percent drop, a second senior manager said. The cut has been attributed to low existing sales, which would make it difficult to recover in the second half of the year.

"Such news quickly follows the company's boasting that it reportedly leads HD movie player sales, commanding 60 percent of the player business versus its opponent, Blu-Ray. In the new development, however, the company has admitted that its figures didn't include Sony's PlayStation 3, which it considers only a game console despite its ability to play Blu-Ray movies. Most PS3 owners buy movies only sparingly compared to those who buy the players alone, claims Universal Studios Home Entertainment VP Ken Graffeo."

Once again, I DID by my PS3 for the BR, so did many others. Pretty crafty for HD to not include even a reasonable 20% PS3's in player sales for mostly movies.

Electronista | Toshiba HD DVD sales far lower than planned

HD DVD sales spike in wake of price cuts

Oh, and linked to on that page is an article that is very true IMO:
Why early high-def disc adoption rates don't really matter

goMac · Jun 12, 2007, 04:23 PM

Apple is supporting both Bluray and HD-DVD in Leopard.

Leopard to support HD DVD and Blu-ray? - Engadget

So much for "Apple doesn't support HD-DVD so why would Mac users support it!?!?"

analogue SPRINKLES · Jun 12, 2007, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

HD DVD sales spike in wake of price cuts

Oh right they are selling so well they had to cut sales forcasts by 44% the day after that story comes out.

goMac · Jun 12, 2007, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Oh right they are selling so well they had to cut sales forcasts by 44% the day after that story comes out.

Well, if Toshiba is decreasing their forecasts, but they sell more standalone players than the Bluray camp...

Dakarʒ · Jun 12, 2007, 04:52 PM

...then both sides suck.

Eug · Jun 12, 2007, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ

...then both sides suck.

Indeed. Sony is predicting they'll ship 600000 Blu-ray players in the US in 2007.

P.S. I always thought Toshiba's 1.8 million number for the US made little sense. 1 million is feasible (if optimistic).

goMac · Jun 12, 2007, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ

...then both sides suck.

Ding ding ding!

Eug · Jun 12, 2007, 05:42 PM

Standalone HD DVD recorder, with hard drive. (300 GB and 600 GB models)

icruise · Jun 12, 2007, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Standalone HD DVD recorder, with hard drive. (300 GB and 600 GB models)

Cost around $1250 - $1700, depending on the model.

Originally Posted by goMac

Apple is supporting both Bluray and HD-DVD in Leopard.

Leopard to support HD DVD and Blu-ray? - Engadget

So much for "Apple doesn't support HD-DVD so why would Mac users support it!?!?"

What I and most of us have been arguing about is Apple's support for one HD format or the other in its hardware and in its consumer video editing software, and we still have no idea what they're going to do on that front. Hell, the "support" in dvdplayer.app is probably just a placeholder that they put in while they figure out what they're going to do. You know, kind of like those icons that had everyone thinking that iTunes would start supporting WMA a while back?

goMac · Jun 12, 2007, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

What I and most of us have been arguing about is Apple's support for one HD format or the other in its hardware and in its consumer video editing software, and we still have no idea what they're going to do on that front.

Both?

Originally Posted by icruise

Hell, the "support" in dvdplayer.app is probably just a placeholder that they put in while they figure out what they're going to do.

This late in the game? With DVD Player for Tiger already supporting unencrypted HD-DVD's? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by icruise

You know, kind of like those icons that had everyone thinking that iTunes would start supporting WMA a while back?

iTunes does support WMA. iTunes for Mac isn't the only version of iTunes.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jun 12, 2007, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Indeed. Sony is predicting they'll ship 600000 Blu-ray players in the US in 2007.

Plus 6 million PS3's. So even if 1/3 use it for just a couple BR movies it is still way ahead of HD.

icruise · Jun 12, 2007, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

iTunes does support WMA. iTunes for Mac isn't the only version of iTunes.

Um, no it doesn't. It will convert WMA files to other formats for use in iTunes, but as far as I know you can't even play WMA files in iTunes, much less use them on an iPod or the like. You call that "supporting WMA?"

goMac · Jun 12, 2007, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

Um, no it doesn't. It will convert WMA files to other formats for use in iTunes, but as far as I know you can't even play WMA files in iTunes, much less use them on an iPod or the like. You call that "supporting WMA?"

I don't think you get it. The icon in iTunes is not a placeholder. iTunes for Windows uses the icon file for WMA files and allows you to open WMA files in iTunes.

So iTunes imports the files. Big whoop. That's not the point.

goMac · Jun 12, 2007, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Plus 6 million PS3's. So even if 1/3 use it for just a couple BR movies it is still way ahead of HD.

Sony hasn't sold 6 million PS3's.

icruise · Jun 12, 2007, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

I don't think you get it. The icon in iTunes is not a placeholder. iTunes for Windows uses the icon file for WMA files and allows you to open WMA files in iTunes.

So iTunes imports the files. Big whoop. That's not the point.

But my point is that at the time people first discovered the icon, it was a placeholder. And people took it to mean that iTunes was going to fully support WMA, which it never did. (I believe this all happened before it was released for Windows.) We don't know what Apple has in mind with regard to dvdplayer.app. They may very well support both HD-DVD and Blu-ray on the software side (although I don't expect that to be the case with hardware) but you can't say that for sure based on this kind of flimsy evidence.

goMac · Jun 12, 2007, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

But my point is that at the time people first discovered the icon, it was a placeholder. And people took it to mean that iTunes was going to fully support WMA, which it never did. (I believe this all happened before it was released for Windows.) We don't know what Apple has in mind with regard to dvdplayer.app. They may very well support both HD-DVD and Blu-ray on the software side (although I don't expect that to be the case with hardware) but you can't say that for sure based on this kind of flimsy evidence.

But that doesn't make any sense. Why would Apple be adding placeholders at this point in development? Adding preferences is usually one of the last things you do after you implement support.

Saying it's a placeholder 3 months away from release is a stretch.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jun 12, 2007, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Sony hasn't sold 6 million PS3's.

By YEARS END.

But no need to explain, BR is winning on all counts for months.

goMac · Jun 12, 2007, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

By YEARS END.

But no need to explain, BR is winning on all counts for months.

Great. We're talking right now. Get back to us at years end.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jun 13, 2007, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Great. We're talking right now. Get back to us at years end.

Right now and for the past 6 months BR is winning. You get back to us if that changes.

Oh, and Microsoft is really standing behind HD:

"If Microsoft has its way, DVD, Blu-Ray Disc and HD DVD will all be rendered obsolete within 10 years, according to Richard Doherty, Microsoft’s program manager for Media Entertainment Convergence.

“I don’t know that [HD] will be delivered on an optical disc in five to 10 years,” he said, pointing to downloads and broadband delivery. “At Microsoft, we’d rather it wasn’t [on a disc].”

"Gaines predicted that the HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray battle will be won based on the number of available titles. "

Home Media Magazine - Bringing Digital Entertainment To You

Oversoul · Jun 13, 2007, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

"If Microsoft has its way, DVD, Blu-Ray Disc and HD DVD will all be rendered obsolete within 10 years, according to Richard Doherty, Microsoft’s program manager for Media Entertainment Convergence.

To be fair though, 10 years is a looooooong time in terms of digital media. DVDs just hit their 10 year anniversary last month, and already their standard definition content is considered obsolete. Of course DVD is still the winner among the consumer masses, but the point remains that DVD technology is seeing its way out.

Eug · Jun 13, 2007, 08:50 AM

The Inq

HD DVD reader, Blu-ray writer from Hitachi:

Toshiba laptop HD DVD writer:

analogue SPRINKLES · Jun 15, 2007, 02:09 PM

Fifth Element Blu-ray exchange program details announced - Engadget HD

Kerrigan · Jun 17, 2007, 07:21 PM

Blockbuster chooses Blu-ray: is the war over? - Engadget

"In a huge blow to Toshiba, Universal, and the rest of the HD DVD devotees, rental giant Blockbuster has decided to stock only Blu-ray discs in the vast majority of its nationwide locations, although HD DVD titles will continue to be offered online and in the 250 (out of 1,450) stores that have been testing both formats since last year."

icruise · Jun 17, 2007, 07:57 PM

Wow.

Interestingly enough, it seems that content -- and not price -- was the deciding factor for consumers...

Yep.

jokell82 · Jun 17, 2007, 09:00 PM

Blu-ray disc coatings starting to rot? - Engadget

icruise · Jun 17, 2007, 09:15 PM

Yeah, looks like (wait for it) a bad batch of discs. I've even had similar things happen with poorly made CDs.

starman · Jun 18, 2007, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

Wow.

Yep.

Yep what? Do we know the details of these test markets? Did they stock 'A' list titles on both formats, or did they offer crap like "Happy Feet" on HD-DVD while offering "Superman Returns" on Blu-Ray?

When DVD debuted, there were only a handful of decent titles. It took a long time for companies to get on board. Even now with the list of Paramount and Universal titles coming out until the end of the year, there are a lot of big holes in the catalog that need to be filled with HD versions.

analogue SPRINKLES · 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Blockbuster chooses Blu-ray: is the war over? - Engadget

"In a huge blow to Toshiba, Universal, and the rest of the HD DVD devotees, rental giant Blockbuster has decided to stock only Blu-ray discs in the vast majority of its nationwide locations, although HD DVD titles will continue to be offered online and in the 250 (out of 1,450) stores that have been testing both formats since last year."

HD-DVD fans better start praying it isn't true and GoMac can start coming up with excuses as to why blockbuster doesn't matter.

icruise · Jun 18, 2007, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by starman

Yep what? Do we know the details of these test markets? Did they stock 'A' list titles on both formats, or did they offer crap like "Happy Feet" on HD-DVD while offering "Superman Returns" on Blu-Ray?

I was merely agreeing with the sentiment that title selection (both current and future) is more important to most people than saving money on the player.

starman · Jun 18, 2007, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

I was merely agreeing with the sentiment that title selection (both current and future) is more important to most people than saving money on the player.

Then explain to me why I have 3x as many HD-DVDs as I do BR movies.

goMac · Jun 18, 2007, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

HD-DVD fans better start praying it isn't true and GoMac can start coming up with excuses as to why blockbuster doesn't matter.

Excuses as to why Blockbuster doesn't matter? Excuse me? How about excuses why Blockbuster does matter. I can tell you the last time I rented a movie from Blockbuster. Oh wait, excuse me, I've never actually rented a movie from Blockbuster, but my family did. When I was six.

I really don't think some has been movie renting place who's glory days were in the early nineties means much in the format war. Everyone I know is on Netflix (except for my parents, who use Hollywood Video), and Blockbuster is still carrying HD-DVD's online, in addition to 250 of their brick and mortar locations. Not that I care. I still don't plan on renting from Blockbuster any time soon.

icruise · Jun 18, 2007, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by starman

Then explain to me why I have 3x as many HD-DVDs as I do BR movies.

I have NO idea.