[King Bob On The Cob]

Apparently, one of the terrorist groups is admitting they have 20 chemical tipped warheads or something and are willing to fire them into Israel.
Good way to get carpet-nuked.

[yakkiebah]

Gaza's rocket threat to Israel
Qassam rockets are homemade weapons that have been fired by Hamas and other Palestinian militants in their hundreds at Israeli communities near the Gaza Strip.

Katyusha rockets, a much larger and more lethal projectile with a longer range, have also begun appearing in the Gaza Strip, smuggled in from surrounding Arab states.

While only three Katyusha impacts have been detected to date, the routine Qassam attacks have had a powerful psychological effect on Israelis along the Gaza border, likened by one Israeli security analyst to "Chinese water torture".

Qassam technology has been developed by Hamas since the current intifada began in 2000 to use against Israeli civilians and retaliate for deadly incursions and assassinations of its activists.

And yet the delusional Palestinian leaders act(yes it's an act) as if they are surprised by the Israeli military reaction?

The only solution is to remove Hamas, including all militant groups, completely. There is no middle road.

[Cody Dawg]

I just want to say that a third party, who shall remain unmentioned, pointed out some facts to me - unintentionally - and I regret starting this thread.

To all the people in the Middle East that I have offended, I apologize.

I really do not advocate war, despite my strong belief system, for anyone or any country because it hurts innocent people.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I just want to say that a third party, who shall remain unmentioned, pointed out some facts to me - unintentionally - and I regret starting this thread.

To all the people in the Middle East that I have offended, I apologize.

I really do not advocate war, despite my strong belief system, for anyone or any country because it hurts innocent people.

I'm sorry, but there have been times when you have very clearly not only advocated, but called for, war.

[Cody Dawg]

I'm not apologizing to you, just so you know.



You, you're always an ass towards me and you can take a flying leap.

I'm apologizing to a select few people, including Kitten.

I'm apologizing for being narrowminded when it comes to certain religions and cultures.

I'm NOT apologizing for Israel or Israel's rights. Just want to be clear about that.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I have never supported ethnic cleansing, genocide, despite what VonWrangell accuses.

I challenge anyone to try and find me supporting such a thing.

Have you ever spoken out against those who DO call for the cleansing of the Palestinian people?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Have you ever spoken out against those who DO call for the cleansing of the Palestinian people?

Yes, I have.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Yes, I have.

And, what is your opinion of PacHead's statements in this thread?

[Kerrigan]

Cody I don't see anything offensive in the OP.

No doubt suffering should be avoided at all costs, and nobody in their right mind would suggest ethnic cleansing in Palestine, nor would any sane person suggest that we ignore the plight of Palestinian refugees who have actually been dealt with unjustly.

But the idea that this justifies terrorism makes me furious. So I have no reservations about being insulting and offensive towards Hamas, and the people who keep them in power.

Israel may be reactionary, but Palestine instigates the violence. The cycle could be broken if the terrorists were all killed or put out of operation. If they feel that they've been treated unjustly, then use peaceful measures like civil disobedience which I mentioned earlier. Deliberately targeting, kidnapping, and killing Israeli citizens does nothing but escalate violence. These acts are calculated to enrage Israel and provoke even more violence--they bring it on themselves.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

No doubt suffering should be avoided at all costs, and nobody in their right mind would suggest ethnic cleansing in Palestine

I think Pachead did...


Edit: missed your qualification "in their right mind".

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I think Pachead did...


Edit: missed your qualification "in their right mind".

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I'd give the Palestinians 48 hours notice to clear out to a neighboring country, and then thoroughly carpet bomb the place. Kinda like how people clear out roaches in their homes.

...

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Yes, I have.

FYI it is official knowledge Von Wrangell has called for the ethnic cleansing of 'white Jews' from Palestine.....originally the land of the Jews of many colors.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

And, what is your opinion of PacHead's statements in this thread?

Similarly to how we let a user continually harrass me personally, and make statements that were blatantly anti-semitic, anti-Jew, that we continued to let him post for a good long while.

Sometimes it's worthwhile to let people expose their beliefs for what they are so they can be ostracized for them.

How else are people to learn when their beliefs don't hold up under the light of day? How else can they motivate themselves to reform their views?

Is killing all Muslims a proposal on the table in any country in the world? No.
Is it a rational solution to anything? No.

Is fighting radical Muslims who wish to replace republics and democracies with Islamic rule and subjugate other religions beneath them reasonable? Yes.
Are there such Muslims in the world? Yes.
Are all Muslims actively supporting such overthrow? No.
Is this a problem worth discussion? Yes.

This is MacNN. We place some limits on what speech we'll allow. It's in the user agreement. We also respond to abuse reports. We try to balance that with not being so restrictive as to cause users to leave and to hamper interesting or useful discussion.

Is the fact that PacHead posts here an endorsement of his vile views by myself or MacNN? No. He's been banned in the past. He may well be banned in the future.

The same can be said of VonWrangell. The fact that he posts here with his veiled threats and support of those killing Americans and Israelis is likewise not an endorsement of his views by myself or MacNN. He too has been banned in the past.

I wasn't aware that you needed me to put my stamp of approval on everyone who posts something vitriolic.

[besson3c]

Why can't we all just get along?

Group hug?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Regarding the latest fighting over Gaza and the Palestinians abducting and killing young men (teenagers) I just want to say that I think that Israel has a right to wage war and I, for one, am proud of them standing up for what is right.

GO ISRAEL - - WE SUPPORT YOU

Just another perfect example of Israel over reacting, and proving it has no right to excist. Israel deserves what ever it gets, and I wont shed a single tear when its bombed off the face of the planet.

Assume for a minute some people in France crossed over into Germany, killed a couple guys, kidnapped one and ran back to France. You think the would would support a full invasion of France by Germany? No then wtf is it ok for Israel.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Oh, that's rich, von Wrangell.

At least they treat their women with equality and dignity and respect, something the Muslims cannot achieve.

To bad they cant treat Palestinians with the same respect they treat there woman. Go Nazi Israel.

[Kerrigan]

The same can be said of VonWrangell. The fact that he posts here with his veiled threats and support of those killing Americans and Israelis is likewise not an endorsement of his views by myself or MacNN. He too has been banned in the past.

Frankly I think vW poisons the atmosphere of any discussion by disguising his religious fundamentalism with secular European phraseology. It's obvious that he supports terrorism, but through a deceptive mix of prevarication, moral equivocation, and word-play, he casts himself as a victim of Western bias.

And he does a rather good job at it because he actually is a Westerner, and so he can play the delicate balancing act of being both a religious extremist and a typical European.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Monique

Of course they work and take care of the house, unfortunatly many men sit around do nothing and by having too much time on their hands they only think about destroying others.

Do you really think Israel would go around and drop bombs if the Palestinians would be peaceful people? The only reason why Israel is doing what it is doing, is because they are attack cowardly by terrorists and for the first times in their history, those Jews decided we are not going to be victims anymore, we are going to fight back. Good for them.

When you look at what happened to them just during the 2nd world war, you can understand why they have decided to fight back as they should.

How do you expect a people to become peaceful when bombs drop and kill love ones. Israels long history of over reactions help keep this endless cycle going.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I think it's good to ensure that women are not abused and killed in other countries, besson.

Don't you?

How can you ignore suffering of other human beings?

I cannot.

Pretty easy actually, I only worry about what I can see and touch. If I started to think about the guy in South Africa with HIV, or the kid in Congo starving to death or the Chinese minor trapped in a mine, or the teenager shoot and killed in LA, USA, I would imagine myself a pretty sad person.

[Kerrigan]

Athens, it's the responsibility of any people to put together a state which defends its citizens by reacting to threats. This is the cornerstone of any civilized people.

This is not the moral equivalent of targetting innocent people. Hamas targets innocent people because they know that this is a breach of ethics and that it provokes a profound emotional reaction from Israel. Killing innocent people always provokes a strong reaction, this is human nature. Hamas exploits this, and calculates their actions to enrage Israel as much as possible.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Athens

Pretty easy actually, I only worry about what I can see and touch.

Then what's the point of discussing injustice if you're not willing to acknowledge it? Pain is not an abstraction.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Tell that to the people who were burned and exterminated during the Holocaust who were ignored until the United States stepped in.

HA! Thats rich, the US only stepped in because it risked losing all the money owed to it for war suppliers if the UK lost, how many years did the US stay out of the war. And guess what the war was won with it with out the US, the only difference is how much of Eruope would have ended up being owned by Russia.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Frankly I think vW poisons the atmosphere of any discussion by disguising his religious fundamentalism with secular European phraseology. It's obvious that he supports terrorism, but through a deceptive mix of prevarication, moral equivocation, and word-play, he casts himself as a victim of Western bias.

And he does a rather good job at it because he actually is a Westerner, and so he can play the delicate balancing act of being both a religious extremist and a typical European.

Kerrigan, this is a pretty crazy jump going from saying that VW supports the Palestinians to saying that he supports terrorism, no?

Why don't we all cool it with the hot button labels? This includes who does or doesn't love America, support terrorism, support our troops, want peace, support religious fundamentalism, etc.

We all basically want the same thing, we just have different ideas as to how to get there.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Athens, it's the responsibility of any people to put together a state which defends its citizens by reacting to threats. This is the cornerstone of any civilized people.

This is not the moral equivalent of targetting innocent people. Hamas targets innocent people because they know that this is a breach of ethics and that it provokes a profound emotional reaction from Israel. Killing innocent people always provokes a strong reaction, this is human nature. Hamas exploits this, and calculates their actions to enrage Israel as much as possible.

And Israel always falls for it like a stupid fish byting into a hook. If Israel wants to end this, they have 2 choices, take out every person there or stop over reacting and allow a generation to grew up with out the violence they do now. The reason they respond the way they do now ie because they think they can user terror to end it, which makes them just as bad as Hamas.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Powerbook

PotHead, what are you doing in here??? The ain't the moron lounge.

Unlike me, you are in violation of the rules on this forum.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by vmarks

He's been banned in the past. He may well be banned in the future.

I don't think I was banned for my views. I think I was banned for the same thing that somebody is doing in this thread right now.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Are all Muslims actively supporting such overthrow? No.

Who claims that all are ? A great many are, just look at the percentages of people in certain Islamic countries which show support and sympathy for the terrorists.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Who claims that all are ? A great many are, just look at the percentages of people in certain Islamic countries which show support and sympathy for the terrorists.

Have you conducted a census, or is this just your good ol' gut feeling talking?

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Kerrigan, this is a pretty crazy jump going from saying that VW supports the Palestinians to saying that he supports terrorism, no?

That is a crazy jump, but you're the one that made it, not me.

Like vmarks said, vW has a history of making thinly veiled statements of support for those that kill innocent Americans, Europeans, and Israelis. He's a died in the wool Islamic fundamentalist, who by his own admission shares the philosophy of nutters like Ahmadinejad.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

That is a crazy jump, but you're the one that made it, not me.

Like vmarks said, vW has a history of making thinly veiled statements of support for those that kill innocent Americans, Europeans, and Israelis. He's a died in the wool Islamic fundamentalist, who by his own admission shares the philosophy of nutters like Ahmadinejad.

I have seen no evidence of him being an Islamic fundamentalist. I have no clue where you get that from.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Athens

The reason they respond the way they do now ie because they think they can user terror to end it, which makes them just as bad as Hamas.

This is pure moral relativism. You equivocate Israeli conventional military tactics with terrorism. You conveniently overlook the intentions of those involved.

What is the modus operandi of a terrorist? To use any means available to kill as many innocent people as possible.

What is the modus operandi of the Israeli army? To prevent terror attacks, to minimize collateral damage, and protect innocent people, all in the pursuit of terrorists.

In your world of moral relativism there is no difference between the two. But in a court of law, and in the execution of justice, intentions matter a great deal.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I have seen no evidence of him being an Islamic fundamentalist. I have no clue where you get that from.

I'm not going to go dig up the links b/c I've got better things to do with my time, but he has on several occassions expressed agreement with most of what Ahmadinejad says, he's equivocated American troops with vicious terrorists, he condones violent insurgency in Iraq, and even in his sig he issues a call to arms. Read between the lines a little and you'll see the message: Kill American and Zionist occupiers.

I hate to say this Besson but if you can't see this then you are a fool.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I'm not going to go dig up the links b/c I've got better things to do with my time, but he has on several occassions expressed agreement with most of what Ahmadinejad says, he's equivocated American troops with vicious terrorists, he condones violent insurgency in Iraq, and even in his sig he issues a call to arms. Read between the lines a little and you'll see the message: Kill American and Zionist occupiers.

I hate to say this Besson but if you can't see this then you are a fool.

Whatever Kerrigan, he disagrees with you. He sympathizes with the Palestinians. He's not crazy about the Bush administration. But now he's an Islamic fundamentalist?

Comon Kerrigan, cool it with the gut feelings.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by besson3c

But now he's an Islamic fundamentalist?

Yeah he is, anybody who reads the forum knows that. Converts are often fanatical in their views and he is no exception.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Yeah he is, anybody who reads the forum knows that. Converts are often fanatical in their views and he is no exception.

Well, not to sound argumentative, but it could be said that you are fanatical with your viewpoints, in case you are trying to insinuate that he is at fault for being fanatical.

[vmarks]

Hi,

Acting as a moderator here, this thread is getting a little too close to becoming a thread about forum members.

I know I've participated in it, especially when asked to by Wiskedjak and promtped by VonWrangell, but I will close it because we're definitely going off topic.

Back on, or lock, ok?

Thanks.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Similarly to how we let a user continually harrass me personally, and make statements that were blatantly anti-semitic, anti-Jew, that we continued to let him post for a good long while.

Sometimes it's worthwhile to let people expose their beliefs for what they are so they can be ostracized for them.

How else are people to learn when their beliefs don't hold up under the light of day? How else can they motivate themselves to reform their views?

Is killing all Muslims a proposal on the table in any country in the world? No.
Is it a rational solution to anything? No.

Is fighting radical Muslims who wish to replace republics and democracies with Islamic rule and subjugate other religions beneath them reasonable? Yes.
Are there such Muslims in the world? Yes.
Are all Muslims actively supporting such overthrow? No.
Is this a problem worth discussion? Yes.

This is MacNN. We place some limits on what speech we'll allow. It's in the user agreement. We also respond to abuse reports. We try to balance that with not being so restrictive as to cause users to leave and to hamper interesting or useful discussion.

Is the fact that PacHead posts here an endorsement of his vile views by myself or MacNN? No. He's been banned in the past. He may well be banned in the future.

The same can be said of VonWrangell. The fact that he posts here with his veiled threats and support of those killing Americans and Israelis is likewise not an endorsement of his views by myself or MacNN. He too has been banned in the past.

I wasn't aware that you needed me to put my stamp of approval on everyone who posts something vitriolic.

It's been said many times that those who don't speak out against the statements of terrorists or those who incite terrorism, support their views. Do you think that's a valid claim?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Hi,

Acting as a moderator here, this thread is getting a little too close to becoming a thread about forum members.

I know I've participated in it, especially when asked to by Wiskedjak and promtped by VonWrangell, but I will close it because we're definitely going off topic.

Back on, or lock, ok?

Thanks.

Its a very hot topic, I blasted Cowdy hard I think in a couple of my posts. But its such a emotional topic to. I dont think these topics could ever go with out things getting personal.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens

Its a very hot topic, I blasted Cowdy hard I think in a couple of my posts. But its such a emotional topic to. I dont think these topics could ever go with out things getting personal.

You also just called Cody a cow!

[Athens]

OH that was sooo a typo!!!!!!!! For the record I dont think Cody is a cow!!!! Now sometimes I think she has madcow because of her views but that shouldnt be taking personally lol

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens

OH that was sooo a typo!!!!!!!! For the record I dont think Cody is a cow!!!! Now sometimes I think she has madcow because of her views but that shouldnt be taking personally lol

Keep digging!

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

It's been said many times that those who don't speak out against the statements of terrorists or those who incite terrorism, support their views. Do you think that's a valid claim?

That's definitely a valid question.

It has two answers.

Unfortunately, they are 'yes' and 'no'.

I'll try and elaborate.

Yes, people who don't speak out against terrorists or those who incite terrorism by their silence permit terrorists to continue down their path. Some of those who are silent do actually support them, and some just permit them to continue by not protesting.

No, it doesn't always scale well to forums or smaller groups of people.
If at every opportunity we silence those who speak such nonsense, we'll have a harder time identifying who they are, and helping people change their views by exposing those views to some ridicule and education.

And let's be clear: there is no shortage of people willing to criticise what they perceive as unacceptable views or support for bad ideologies, whether it's one person's criticism of Judaism, Christianity, Bush, Islam, Israel, Iran, terrorism, and more.

When Allied forces finished the war with Germany, they didn't kill every person who had been a member of the Nazi party. They didn't imprison or kill every member of the Nazi armed forces.
Instead, these views held by the party became ostracized. Became ridiculed. In some cases, as Troll pointed out, became outlawed.

Which comes back to the 'free speech' concept. In a pure form, it's meant to protect political speech we disagree with. MacNN tempers that a little with the user agreement. I watch the news reports. Around the time of the Danish Cartoons of Blasphemy, there were people who spoke to the news reporters saying "I believe in free speech, BUT the Danish newspapers should be closed." The word BUT has the nasty characteristic of disqualifying anything that precedes it.
So there are problems with outlawing it, and with defining it as an absolute. We can first see if it is indeed political speech and then see if it complies with the user agreement where readers and posters agreed to temper their own speech. For myself, I believe in it as an absolute, with repercussions. (You can say what you please, but if you agreed to temper it in the agreement, don't be surprised if action is taken.)

If, everytime someone says something absurd and offensive, we ban that person and delete the post, then a few things will happen.

I will have a lot less time to work, see my family, or do much of anything. I'll be reading every thread and post into the wee hours of the night.
Readers will start to feel that this isn't a place where discussion can take place and will leave.
Which would sort of solve for the first event, but isn't the desired outcome.

I mostly attempt to post rather than exercise 'moderator privileges' because it is my belief that exercising those powers heavy-handedly alienates people (of course, so may my opinions.)

Unfortunately, it leaves many people dissatisfied and critical of me as a moderator, in part for the opinions I hold and post, and in part for not using the 'moderator powers' as they see fit. I don't use those powers in a biased fashion and I refrain from using them most of the time. But that's the nature of the P/L - it's a place where many people are dissatissfied.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by vmarks

That's definitely a valid question.

It has two answers.

Unfortunately, they are 'yes' and 'no'.

I'll try and elaborate.

Yes, people who don't speak out against terrorists or those who incite terrorism by their silence permit terrorists to continue down their path. Some of those who are silent do actually support them, and some just permit them to continue by not protesting.

No, it doesn't always scale well to forums or smaller groups of people.
If at every opportunity we silence those who speak such nonsense, we'll have a harder time identifying who they are, and helping people change their views by exposing those views to some ridicule and education.

And let's be clear: there is no shortage of people willing to criticise what they perceive as unacceptable views or support for bad ideologies, whether it's one person's criticism of Judaism, Christianity, Bush, Islam, Israel, Iran, terrorism, and more.

When Allied forces finished the war with Germany, they didn't kill every person who had been a member of the Nazi party. They didn't imprison or kill every member of the Nazi armed forces.
Instead, these views held by the party became ostracized. Became ridiculed. In some cases, as Troll pointed out, became outlawed.

Which comes back to the 'free speech' concept. In a pure form, it's meant to protect political speech we disagree with. MacNN tempers that a little with the user agreement. I watch the news reports. Around the time of the Danish Cartoons of Blasphemy, there were people who spoke to the news reporters saying "I believe in free speech, BUT the Danish newspapers should be closed." The word BUT has the nasty characteristic of disqualifying anything that precedes it.
So there are problems with outlawing it, and with defining it as an absolute. We can first see if it is indeed political speech and then see if it complies with the user agreement where readers and posters agreed to temper their own speech. For myself, I believe in it as an absolute, with repercussions. (You can say what you please, but if you agreed to temper it in the agreement, don't be surprised if action is taken.)

If, everytime someone says something absurd and offensive, we ban that person and delete the post, then a few things will happen.

I will have a lot less time to work, see my family, or do much of anything. I'll be reading every thread and post into the wee hours of the night.
Readers will start to feel that this isn't a place where discussion can take place and will leave.
Which would sort of solve for the first event, but isn't the desired outcome.

I mostly attempt to post rather than exercise 'moderator privileges' because it is my belief that exercising those powers heavy-handedly alienates people (of course, so may my opinions.)

Unfortunately, it leaves many people dissatisfied and critical of me as a moderator, in part for the opinions I hold and post, and in part for not using the 'moderator powers' as they see fit. I don't use those powers in a biased fashion and I refrain from using them most of the time. But that's the nature of the P/L - it's a place where many people are dissatissfied.

I must say, I think that's the most "moderatorly" thing I've seen you say.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I'm not going to go dig up the links b/c I've got better things to do with my time, but he has on several occassions expressed agreement with most of what Ahmadinejad says, he's equivocated American troops with vicious terrorists, he condones violent insurgency in Iraq, and even in his sig he issues a call to arms. Read between the lines a little and you'll see the message: Kill American and Zionist occupiers.

He also called for ethnic cleansing of 'white Jews' and if anyone mentions Palestine is historically Jewish he stays low until it blows over.

[Cody Dawg]

COWdy?





It's okay to call me a cow.



I'm not and I don't think I look like one, but you can call me that if you want. After all, I do breastfeed my babies.



The fact of the matter is that if the *people* in the Middle East who are not Jews would leave Israel ALONE we would have many less problems. But, they don't. The Jews are historically peaceful...when left alone, see?

My grandfather, a Jew, was run out of his home once in Eastern Europe. We're sick of being run out wherever we go by anti-Semitic people. When left alone we have very close families, we are kind, we are well educated, and we benefit whatever community we live in. Best of all, we don't try to convert anyone to our ways of thinking so you can rest assured that we will never try to influence other people or children except to be kindly and neighborly. Our God does not demand that we convert people to our way of thinking nor does our God condemn others because of race or religion nor does our God want to convert the entire world to Judaism...or take over the world.

The Jews are not going to be pushed around anymore, that's all. Not in Eastern Europe, not in the Middle East, and not in the United States.

I'm screwed up in the head when it comes to religion because although I have a Jewish history, I was also raised in a Christian household, so I have the opportunity to perceive something different than someone who is only Jewish or an Israeli or someone who is only Christian.

But one thing I am sure of: I am proud of my family and our Jewish ancestry and listening to the stories of the atrocities suffered by my family so long ago makes my blood boil when people or nations target the Jews or Israel.

[Athens]

First, I really didnt mean to call you a cow
Second, this has more to do with the State of Israel being placed where it is and them being booted off there land then it being about Jews. I bet you if the same thing had happened but with a Christian group, or a hindu group the results would have been the same. The very fact that Israel is a Jewish country has in my opinion little to do with it.

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by Athens

The very fact that Israel is a Jewish country has in my opinion little to do with it.

For you any many others who critize Israel maybe not but for Hamas it does.

[Nicko]

I saw a news story on BBC a few minutes ago that said that since Israel blew up the Palestinian power plant the sewage processing plants in gaza have been out of operation. To avoid outbreaks of epidemics they have been forced to redirect the raw sewage directly into the sea in some places. Once the sewage reaches the sea it inevitably washes up onto the pristine Israeli beaches to the north.

It seems like a metaphor for what is happening there.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Oh right VW, you can't kidnap soldiers in a war, but you can kidnap civilians and murder them. That's very bizarre logic.

As I pointed out earlier nobody is ignoring the plight of Palestinian refugees who have actually suffered. The whole world seems to sympathize with them. But this does not justify the barbaric manner in which terrorists are stirring up sh*t and causing problems in Israel.

Palestinians ought to vote for peaceful politicians to represent them, and then force Hamas to lay down their arms. Civil disobedience is a far better choice than indiscriminant violence against citizens. But civil disobedience requires a firm sense of civic duty, something which Palestinians don't have. They prefer the firebrand rhetoric and idiotic violence of Hamas.

Why should they lay down their arms when they are being treated like they are? The only reason anyone cares about what is happening in Palestine is because they have resorted to a) the horrible tactic of terrorism and b) legitimate resistance.

Look at what has happened to any talk of creating Kurdistan. It's all died after they stopped using those two methods. The same will happen in Palestine if they give that up.

We all obviously prefer peaceful solutions to violent ones. But those of us who are privileged and who have had the good fortune of peaceful change should never moralize about it, never try to appear virtuous in relation to those who have been forced to take up arms to liberate themselves. If we do, we have forgotten our own past.

Olof Palme
There Is No Middle Ground in Southern Africa Between Oppressors and the Oppressed

Speech at the United Nations Conference in Support of the Peoples of Zimbabwe and Namibia,
Maputo, May 20, 1977

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

FYI it is official knowledge Von Wrangell has called for the ethnic cleansing of 'white Jews' from Palestine.....originally the land of the Jews of many colors.

Really? Can you show me where I said that?