[Hash]

Originally posted by Millennium:
For what it's worth, Hash, I don't think her threats to divorce you were ever sincere, or she'd have done it already. Even now, you'll note that she's begging you to divorce her, and not the other way around.

I don't doubt that her feelings are just as she says they are. But something is keeping her from leaving. I don't know what it is, and it may not be a good thing, but if you truly want to save your marriage then it's your last hope, and you need to find out what it is. If it's good, hold onto it and make it grow. If it's bad, then you're in a real mess, because leveraging it would be outright abusive. In such case, your only hope would be to help her heal it, and hope that by the time that's done she won't want to leave anymore. This is risky -after all, you're handing her what she needs to leave and hoping she'll decide against it after all- but if you want a solution where everyone is happy then it's your only chance. Staying together for the sake of the kids isn't a permanent option; that needs to be resolved one way or the other as soon as possible.

I do not know too, what is that something keeping her from leaving (fortunately for me, I guess). Though she says (when we talked about that) she can leave me any moment she wants, she is ready for that and she is not afraid of raising kids alone. So what would be the things to keep her from leaving? I am puzzled too. She once said (recently) she still have some feelings for me. But I am thinking that its kids rather than feelings (supposedly died long ago). She is wonderful mother, best i ever seen, and I think she is worried for them. Or maybe she is waiting for a good moment to leave, when her work will be finished and she ll have some time to reopen her business in other place, I do not know. I wish I could read future, but i can't. Strangely, I have now peace of mind.

Basically I do what good spouse is supposed to do, some extra maybe - but nothing special - and I am waiting for her decision. So all problems sorted out and solved for me now - I decided that those little affairs - and now I do not even if they are really affairs- do not bother me anymore. The internet guy seem to disappear and never replied me (I would be though surprised if he did.. what would he write?), the second one basically does not bother me too, I too happen to have lunches with people, though I do not send them afterwards love messages, but some freaks may, why bother then? - if wife decides to stay, she will decide what to do with him, and of course, then she will have to leave - cause I told her that I cannot tolerate that one as well but the only reason i am not making fuss of that is that I am trusting her words it is not serious- and is she leaves, its her choice to meet anyone she wants to. So, its now game of patience. Maybe someday I will learn what was keeping her. Kids are still happy and do not notice anything strange. We pretend to be good parents and talk normally when people visit us. And we still have some normal talks, about kids or work, since I am helping her now, we have some common topics to discuss, which are not about cheating or marriage. I am wearing wedding ring as well as she does. Interestingly, she still intends to see the internet guy though she insists its a business meeting. Talk about women. You are unhappy with them and without them. Maybe someday I will laugh recalling these days. Its really surreal, for one thing - I cannot for sure say, for example, am I a married person or not (formally yes, but actually?), does still our family exist or not (on paper - yes), how long it will continue? How its gonna end?

[Vi0]

Originally posted by Spliff:
You both need to see a marriage counsellor, separate sessions for each of you.

Hahaha!

counselors and other "professional help" is bullsh*t. the fact is if you can't help yourself, nobody can.

[Vi0]

Originally posted by Hash:
I do not know too, what is that something keeping her from leaving (fortunately for me, I guess). Though she says (when we talked about that) she can leave me any moment she wants, she is ready for that and she is not afraid of raising kids alone. So what would be the things to keep her from leaving? I am puzzled too. She once said (recently) she still have some feelings for me. But I am thinking that its kids rather than feelings (supposedly died long ago). She is wonderful mother, best i ever seen, and I think she is worried for them. Or maybe she is waiting for a good moment to leave, when her work will be finished and she ll have some time to reopen her business in other place, I do not know. I wish I could read future, but i can't. Strangely, I have now peace of mind.

Basically I do what good spouse is supposed to do, some extra maybe - but nothing special - and I am waiting for her decision. So all problems sorted out and solved for me now - I decided that those little affairs - and now I do not even if they are really affairs- do not bother me anymore. The internet guy seem to disappear and never replied me (I would be though surprised if he did.. what would he write?), the second one basically does not bother me too, I too happen to have lunches with people, though I do not send them afterwards love messages, but some freaks may, why bother then? - if wife decides to stay, she will decide what to do with him, and of course, then she will have to leave - cause I told her that I cannot tolerate that one as well but the only reason i am not making fuss of that is that I am trusting her words it is not serious- and is she leaves, its her choice to meet anyone she wants to. So, its now game of patience. Maybe someday I will learn what was keeping her. Kids are still happy and do not notice anything strange. We pretend to be good parents and talk normally when people visit us. And we still have some normal talks, about kids or work, since I am helping her now, we have some common topics to discuss, which are not about cheating or marriage. I am wearing wedding ring as well as she does. Interestingly, she still intends to see the internet guy though she insists its a business meeting. Talk about women. You are unhappy with them and without them. Maybe someday I will laugh recalling these days. Its really surreal, for one thing - I cannot for sure say, for example, am I a married person or not (formally yes, but actually?), does still our family exist or not (on paper - yes), how long it will continue? How its gonna end?

you're a wimp, dude. that's why your woman is leaving you. i just can't believe you let a woman tell you she's going to divorce you. that's gay to 10th power. it's over. find another woman and pretend to be a real man if you can.

[f1000]

Originally posted by Hash:
If she does not love me (as she already said) and wants divorce, then I should not bother with trying to find more information about her affairs - she is (in my understanding) is a free person and entitled to meeting anyone she chooses.

Hash, this doesn't sound like a marriage to me. Stay with her if it makes you happy, but I doubt that you will be able to tolerate her selfishness for long. You've waited for your wife to come around long enough; now it's time to get her to go to counseling, a clergyperson, or the in-laws. Whatever your flaws, your wife should not be flirting with other men.

[Hash]

Originally posted by f1000:
Hash, this doesn't sound like a marriage to me. Stay with her if it makes you happy, but I doubt that you will be able to tolerate her selfishness for long. You've waited for your wife to come around long enough; now it's time to get her to go to counseling, a clergyperson, or the in-laws. Whatever your flaws, your wife should not be flirting with other men.

Thats for sure, I do not want other flirts. However, what I mean either she s in or out - and in both cases it clear-cut and in both cases the solution depends now on her herself.

[f1000]

Originally posted by Hash:
Thats for sure, I do not want other flirts. However, what I mean either she s in or out - and in both cases it clear-cut and in both cases the solution depends now on her herself.

Unless she goes to counseling, I don't think you're going to like her decision. You cannot modify your behavior for a few weeks and expect your wife to suddenly stop flirting with other men. First off, I doubt she's ever been honest with you about what's been truly bothering her. That's why you need someone who can criticize you both with an objective eye. You must correctly diagnose the disease before you can fix it.

[Hash]

Originally posted by f1000:
Unless she goes to counseling, I don't think you're going to like her decision. You cannot modify your behavior for a few weeks and expect your wife to suddenly stop flirting with other men. First off, I doubt she's ever been honest with you about what's been truly bothering her. That's why you need someone who can criticize you both with an objective eye. You must correctly diagnose the disease before you can fix it.

Yes, thats very true. You will not believe she said almost same words - "You changed a lot in few last weeks, I am not the one who can change overnight.. It all (the bitterness) grew for years..I need time to evaluate all options, to see how its gonna be and then decide" ( I guess when she said she cannot change I don't think think she meant flirting, rather the bitterness, she had been a very trustworthy spouse and never ever flirted before).

I cannot also find a message which was here - I read it- about being whimpy, but I just wanted to say that dumping is an easiest option. I do not wanna dumping, I want her love\back, thats different things. Do not forget that I don't have forgive say, if she left me and lived with other men, all I have forgive is few e-mails, calls and lunches (as far as I know - there is no evidence for anything more) and it is quite possible and not as difficult. As about outcome I may not like- well, its up to her now, thats her choice and if its her final decision, I wanna respect it. We all free individuals and I think trust is most powerful thing ever in human relations, one which is a base for friendship and love. If i do not trust her, then there is no meaning at all leaving together. But so far evidence I have and merits of saving family far outweigh any merits of break-up.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Hash:
Yes, thats very true. You will not believe she said almost same words - "You changed a lot in few last weeks, I am not the one who can change overnight.. It all (the bitterness) grew for years..I need time to evaluate all options, to see how its gonna be and then decide" ( I guess when she said she cannot change I don't think think she meant flirting, rather the bitterness, she had been a very trustworthy spouse and never ever flirted before).

I cannot also find a message which was here - I read it- about being whimpy, but I just wanted to say that dumping is an easiest option. I do not wanna dumping, I want her love\back, thats different things. Do not forget that I don't have forgive say, if she left me and lived with other men, all I have forgive is few e-mails, calls and lunches (as far as I know - there is no evidence for anything more) and it is quite possible and not as difficult. As about outcome I may not like- well, its up to her now, thats her choice and if its her final decision, I wanna respect it. We all free individuals and I think trust is most powerful thing ever in human relations, one which is a base for friendship and love. If i do not trust her, then there is no meaning at all leaving together. But so far evidence I have and merits of saving family far outweigh any merits of break-up.

I think what the other poster wanted to tell you is to get up and stop being passive. You shouldn't just wait for a decision. You always talk about changing yourself, but both of you need to work on themselves if you want to stay together.

[f1000]

Originally posted by Hash:
Yes, thats very true. You will not believe she said almost same words - "You changed a lot in few last weeks, I am not the one who can change overnight.. It all (the bitterness) grew for years..I need time to evaluate all options, to see how its gonna be and then decide" ( I guess when she said she cannot change I don't think think she meant flirting, rather the bitterness, she had been a very trustworthy spouse and never ever flirted before).

This is what I'm talking about. While she claims that her bitterness is due to your past behavior, she may simply be imagining these slights as a means to justify her own poor behavior. You need to find someone who can observe and criticize you both if you want to save your marriage. Unless your wife is willing to address her own failings, all your hand-wringing and forgiving will be for naught.

[Hash]

Originally posted by f1000:
This is what I'm talking about. While she claims that her bitterness is due to your past behavior, she may simply be imagining these slights as a means to justify her own poor behavior. You need to find someone who can observe and criticize you both if you want to save your marriage. Unless your wife is willing to address her own failings, all your hand-wringing and forgiving will be for naught.

OK, thats true. I'll try to get counseling for both us. Dunno know if she will go to, though.

[Hash]

Well, for those who advocated counseling: wife refused any kind of counseling, said that she will decide on her own and will not listen to anyone (including her sister, when I proposed her as a possible neutral person to sort out our problems). Well, I sort of expected it and I am not surprised at all. So, couple counseling and family counseling are not solutions.

Second, we had a talk today, I asked her about what she is thinking of future of our marriage, and she said that she still cannot decide. But she added that the only reason why she has not left is the fact that I am trying to change and revive our relationship, that and kids is what still holding us together. Do not know if it means progress or not. She said that she is giving a chance to our family, but does not know how much time will be needed to revive our relation and if there is necessity to make me wait for a [positive] answer, while chances of that are slim. She also cried telling this, and I have to admit I am feeling myself rather dumb, cause I do not know why she would cry while talking about it.

[Moderator]

I mean no offense but..it sounds like even if things get "better" now..you'll be dealing with the same situation two or three years from now...if not sooner.

she's bluffing...the only reason she's not sure is because she doesn't have anything better/secure to go to...if that dude's married then he's out...she's not gonna leave you to be alone...but at some point she won't have to.

it'd still be best for you to get out now and start rebuilding..

not even sure why you wanna be in this anymore...there are plenty of great people out there why waste your life with someone who doesn't respect you

[budster101]

Originally posted by Hash:
Well, for those who advocated counseling: wife refused any kind of counseling, said that she will decide on her own and will not listen to anyone (including her sister, when I proposed her as a possible neutral person to sort out our problems). Well, I sort of expected it and I am not surprised at all. So, couple counseling and family counseling are not solutions.

Second, we had a talk today, I asked her about what she is thinking of future of our marriage, and she said that she still cannot decide. But she added that the only reason why she has not left is the fact that I am trying to change and revive our relationship, that and kids is what still holding us together. Do not know if it means progress or not. She said that she is giving a chance to our family, but does not know how much time will be needed to revive our relation and if there is necessity to make me wait for a [positive] answer, while chances of that are slim. She also cried telling this, and I have to admit I am feeling myself rather dumb, cause I do not know why she would cry while talking about it.

She needs a slap in the face. (VERBAL)

Here is a story from another thread:

Originally posted by jebjeb:
Well, we have had some bad luck. My wife had a miscarriage late last week. It was fairly early (about 13 weeks) into the pregnancy but still not a fun thing.

We are both doing pretty well and my wife is healthy which is the main thing. We keep going back to the fact that when we first found out we were pregnant that we were just happy to know everything was working as we had been trying for nearly a year.

Oh well, guess we just start trying again in a few months!

Reading about it, it is quite amazing how common it is. Supposedly 1 in 3 pregnancies results in a miscarriage but that includes a lot of occasions when the woman had not yet known she was pregnant. For "known" pregnancies it is about 1 in 6.

It seems to be a topic that people don't really discuss. Initially, we thought we would not tell people we were pregnant until after the first trimester but then thought that people would either work it out or they already knew we were trying for a family. As people knew that we were pregnant, I have told quite a few that we have lost it. It is surprising how many have said that they have gone through the same thing or how a family member or close friend has been through it.

I like to think that we are dealing with it quite well. We are talking about it together a fair bit and are just getting on with things. I suppose a slight consolation is that we can try again and, fingers crossed, everything will be fine with the next pregnancy.

She should count her blessings!!!

[dav]

once again, sorry Hash. i can't understand why your spouse would refuse any counseling. perhaps she doesn't want to confront the possibility that she's the one in the wrong?

[budster101]

Originally posted by Moderator:
I mean no offense but..it sounds like even if things get "better" now..you'll be dealing with the same situation two or three years from now...if not sooner.

she's bluffing...the only reason she's not sure is because she doesn't have anything better/secure to go to...if that dude's married then he's out...she's not gonna leave you to be alone...but at some point she won't have to.

it'd still be best for you to get out now and start rebuilding..

not even sure why you wanna be in this anymore...there are plenty of great people out there why waste your life with someone who doesn't respect you

NAIL! meet the HAMMER!.
Well said.

[wolfen]

Hash -- Well you're certainly taking the option that I would take. I would never do it "for the kids" because that's what my parents did and it was a nightmare for all of us. I wish they would have just gotten divorced.

But aside from that, you're taking a very mature approach. The key, now, is to not put so much pressure on it. That will feel impossible, but it's the only way. Who wants to be in a reliationship that's constantly charged with tension and analytical glances? "Have you decided, yet? What are you gonna do...?" etc. etc. Create a positive, hopeful vision for the relationship and keep your actions in that direction.

Play happy homemaker, be the best husband you know how to be, and see what she decides. Don't even put pressure on her -- other than to tell you if she starts to see someone else. Give her all the time she needs.

HOWEVER --> You are living in a little bit of a delusion. You keep referring to her as a smart, intelligent, honest, etc. person. She's just human. She's frail like you. Anyone who would deal with their relationship issues by withdrawing and withdrawing and never having it out with you has problems. Real problems, not just the quaint and endearing sort. Get my drift? SHE needs counseling. Whether or not you do is another matter, but if she has to flirt all over the world to meet her needs but CAN'T deal with her actual partner in an honest way, she's messed up.

So while you're doing the right thing, IMHO, I think you need to keep your eyes open to the reality of the situation. Yes, you messed up in your insensitivity, lack of support and kindness when and where she needed you. Ok, how did she deal with that? It shouldn't have to be a cryptic "didn't you understand my signals?" communication system at work. A mature adult with integrity confronts such issues head on and works relentlessly to resolve these things in a marriage. She doesn't really know how to do that. That's a problem, and it's not going to go away by you playing suck-up for the next 50 years.

Furthermore, you have to understand that such people will simply repeat that pattern -- hoping to find effortless harmony in lieu of actual work. This is fantasy. And the repeated flirtations reinforce this value in her life -- fantasy. She's not living in reality much of the time. The idea that she's going to flirt her way into a confrontation with you is a perfect example of her poor relationship skills.

Avoidance/escapism is one of the most destructive coping tools we humans have, and its intended for short-term problems -- not lifelong relationships. She needs to learn better, with you or without you. So even if you guys find a way to stick together for a while, don't close your eyes to this problem.

Book #1 > When I say No, I Feel Guilty.
Book #2 > Learning to Say No: Establishing Healthy Boundaries

All relationships go through this phase of managing confrontation and getting everyone's needs met. It's never FUN. She's got to be mature enough to deal with this inescapable fact of life.

[wolfen]

part 2 to this situation: You need to find ways to make her feel special...cherished. Flowers, phone calls, emails. Make it sappy but also give solid feedback on what makes her worth fighting for. How she handles....? The way she....? Her intellect, her wisdom, her kindness? What makes this person the joy that she can be?

You need to aim at filling the holes that SHE'S trying to fill. She wants someone who will see her and love her for who she is, not what she does for others. And stir up a few memories of your own! Like the time you did something sweet for her, the romantic moment you surprised her with x or y -- and how you look forward to giving her romantic surprises for the rest of her life.

Candlelight, music, etc...your home can be a haven for her or a burden. The idea that the kids destroy that is nonsense. Turn off all the lights in the house and light a couple dozen candles -- and watch everyone's mood change. There are lots of things you can do to make life sweet, special, and memorable for the people you love. This is the perfect time to do it. And if nothing else, it's good practice.

And for Pete's sake, get the hell out of the house and go for a walk as a family.

[Hash]

I think these are great advises. I think that we have missed here one point, everyone including me thinks that she has committed adultery, while strictly speaking, she may be absolutely innocent. Yes, she exchanged some romantic e-mails with her high school sweetheart, and had some lunches with a college friend. While these are things, which I cannot approve, its not adultery and maybe she was trying to find some care, I could not provide her at that time. Yes, these things made her look bad and certainly she understands it (thats why the apology), she needs to work on these issues, but the fact that it has been only few last months, coinciding wth time she had difficult business and family-related issues (with her brother), makes me think it was not a serious chronical issue but a temporary slide, and we can reach full understanding and never repeating it.

I am preparing some surprise gifts for her as well as a family trip and a barbecue (though its still a bit cold outside) and also want to help her brother financially, I guess I owe to the guy. You can disagree with me, but I want to do that at least for my inner peace. And I hope that inner peace will someday bring peace in our relationship. There is absolutely no doubt that I am not going to dump her or be the one to break family.

I am now hoping that most difficult times are close to an end. Something tells me so, though I cannot be assured.

[Moderator]

see you back here in 6 months

[f1000]

Originally posted by Hash:
Yes, these things made her look bad and certainly she understands it (thats why the apology), she needs to work on these issues, but the fact that it has been only few last months, coinciding wth time she had difficult business and family-related issues (with her brother), makes me think it was not a serious chronical issue but a temporary slide, and we can reach full understanding and never repeating it.

I'm convinced more than ever that your wife has psychological problems. She seems to have work issues, in-law issues, AND marital issues, all of which are centered around her.

Her brother's problems are not your fault. Unless you actually caused her brother to fail, not volunteering to spend your life savings and your children's future college funds on a habitual loser does not make you a bad husband. Did any of the cads who sent love letters to your wife also send money to her brother?

Originally posted by Hash:
I am preparing some surprise gifts for her as well as a family trip and a barbecue (though its still a bit cold outside) and also want to help her brother financially, I guess I owe to the guy.

You didn't marry your brother-in-law, nor did you sign a business contract with him. Don't give him more money than you can afford to lose, and don't expect to be paid back.

[budster101]

Runaway. <monty python>

[Hash]

Originally posted by f1000:
I'm convinced more than ever that your wife has psychological problems. She seems to have work issues, in-law issues, AND marital issues, all of which are centered around her.

Her brother's problems are not your fault. Unless you actually caused her brother to fail, not volunteering to spend your life savings and your children's future college funds on a habitual loser does not make you a bad husband. Did any of the cads who sent love letters to your wife also send money to her brother?



You didn't marry your brother-in-law, nor did you sign a business contract with him. Don't give him more money than you can afford to lose, and don't expect to be paid back.

I had some sort of counseling (she did not go and even did not know about that), and yes, it seems she has some problems and has to get rid of them if she wants stable marriage or life. But it seems that she has not committed any serious things to be really condemned, as well, so i was told to relax. One thing is she failed to understand that flirts seeming innocent to her, did not seem so to others. I do now know if she fully understood it, but so far her behavior has improved, as far as I understand.

About her brother, I did not cause his failures, but maybe there were moments when he expected more help (of course, its when banks refuse to deal with him) and he did not get it. I knew he was very upset, and recently I sent him a small sum, as much as i can afford and seemed appropriate. I also helped a bit her sister. Of course, no one from SOBs sent her relatives money, its clear. Anyway, I did it for my inner peace and I am not going to go any further, nor I can afford to.

[f1000]

Originally posted by Hash:
I had some sort of counseling (she did not go and even did not know about that), and yes, it seems she has some problems and has to get rid of them if she wants stable marriage or life. But it seems that she has not committed any serious things to be really condemned, as well, so i was told to relax. One thing is she failed to understand that flirts seeming innocent to her, did not seem so to others. I do now know if she fully understood it, but so far her behavior has improved, as far as I understand.

Ultimately, whether or not she is to be condemned is up to you. I'm glad that you're not the resentful type, and I hope that your wife can match your level of maturity for everyone's sake.

[f1000]

Hash, I just caught this episode of "This American Life" on NPR. If you miss the live broadcast, you can listen to it next week over RealAudio. It's a very interesting show on couple dynamics and predicting divorce.

http://www.thislife.org/

[Hash]

Originally posted by f1000:
Ultimately, whether or not she is to be condemned is up to you. I'm glad that you're not the resentful type, and I hope that your wife can match your level of maturity for everyone's sake.

I really do not know.. I don't want to condemn her and maybe I do not have a right to, cause I screwed things in the first place and after that the she felt lonely and helpless and so on. To be honest, I am quite a resentful and jealous guy, but in this case, I felt I have to overcome myself - thats why I am saying i am trying to change myself. Losing family over few e-mails and even lunches is a too high price for sticking to principles which ultimately led to the fiasco of our marriage, which I am trying to rebuild now.

We had a barbecue party, with barbecue, beer and wine, joined by my sister's family (we gathered there) and her sister's and it was a nice party, though I got a headache from smoke afterwards, but it was fun and wife was happy and smiling. I realized I have not seen her much smiling and having fun recently, certainly before and after her e-mail affair was discovered. First, she was very reluctant to go to party but suddenly the day before the planned party became quite enthusiastic. Overall, we had fun.

Don't know why, but I felt sorry for her. I know its me who's screwed, but cant stop feeling sorry for her. Even if she leaves me, which is now is a somewhat unlikely, I think i still will sorry for her. She is a good woman, but creating so many problems for her and people around yet is a only savior for her poor brother

[Hash]

For a first time in almost a half year, we had a normal talk, laughter and smiles. Maybe it was a very special day, but I learned hard way to cherish even small things. I am happy as far as its's possible.

[f1000]

Originally posted by Hash:
For a first time in almost a half year, we had a normal talk, laughter and smiles. Maybe it was a very special day, but I learned hard way to cherish even small things. I am happy as far as its's possible.

It sounds like you're making progress. By the way, that radio program I mentioned last week is now online, http://www.thislife.org/ra/261.ram

[Hash]

Thank you very much, f1000, for the link. Last week I went to the site, but the link wasn't there. I think that methodology of Dr. Gotman (not sure about his name) is quite interesting. Two things which I learned from the radio discussion, I think were quite important things, one is contempt in relationship and another is conflict deceleration. These are things which are applicable to everyday life, without any special training, yet are so effective in managing mutual relationship. Reduction of contempt, actually listening to other side- and conflict deceleration seem to me, more I think about it, more and more important. Actually listening to other side was what I think, Millenium suggested and it is a cornerstone. I tried to recall what my wife was telling me or trying to make me understand last couple of years, and I found early signs of the problems. If I only could be smarter then and actually understood what she meant.. I would have much less problems by now.

Someone may suggest that I sound too whimsy or whatever, but actually managing family and family relations is, if we think about that for a moment, the single most important task a human may face in management in his life. And I guess, its far more difficult than managing even a large corporation. How many successful managers there divorced or have hollow marriage? I think quite a few.. and its paradoxically, a man can manage a company but cannot his own family.. and ultimately his life is not a company but his family - and which one is more important then? When you look from a view point of whole life span at your career, I guess, business and work mean much less, so much less one can even wonder why one should sacrifice his family for those faceless cubicles and fantom power..

Thats what I am thinking now. Of course, you cannot be fully engaged in family management for 24 hours, since we still have to earn for our living, but then the importance of familiy management for the rest of the day or time we got for life- is so, so important.

Another thing I learned from the radio talk-
The signs of happy couple - for example, the ratio of positive to negative of about 5 to 1- seemed very important to me. Take this not as a sign but as a cause - for example, if you make or try to make 5 positive things in your relationship for each negative moment- then you've surely got less conflicts and more stable relationship. Thats what I mean this ratio may be not only a result but a be causal factor, thats there is feedback to relationship quality..



Again, thanks a lot for advices and all things you told me here, budster, MIllenium, f1000, all others. I do not know whether my family is saved - but there no more late strange calls, ****ink e-mails, wife is not talking about divorce anymore, I have a sort of inner peace now, knowing that I did my best (and will do for the rest of my life) and the responsibity now lies in her court. We are not back yet to the level of family life we had before the crisis but its becoming closer by a small step with each passing day. I still have no certain answers, but maybe time will come for them, I guess, and even if its gonna be answers I won't like, I have no remorses anymore. And if its gonna be answer I am waitin for, then all this hard work had a meaning I guess.

[Hash]

Unfortunately, it seems those of you who were pessimistic were right. After some period I caught her sending mail to her mate, planning the meeting and saying smth like "I can't wait to meet you, bla-bla". This is after she repeatedly told how she's trying to save our marriage. I want to file for divorce. There are only 2 things that are precluding me from doing this: in 2 weeks there will anniversary of our marriage, and her meeting with the guy did not yet happen.

[olePigeon]

Hash, tell her outright. Tact has no place here, there's no easy way to get this accross:

* I'm serious about our relationship. (tell her how much you lover her.) At this point I really don't feel comfortable with you seeing your ex-boyfriend. If you're committed to our marriage, please do not continue seeing him. It is not OK, and it is not healthy for our relationship.

Then call her boyfriend and tell him:

* I understand that you and my wife were ex-lovers and I don't feel comfortable with you seeing her. Please stop calling, emailing, and sending gifts. Good bye.


In case of rebuttals:

Wife: I can see whatever friends I want. Stay out of my personal life. (some other excuse so she can see him)
You: (very calm, NEVER lose your temper) We are married, I love you. Some things are private, but not relationships. I trust your decisions, but I don't want you seeing your ex-boyfriend. I don't think it's healthy for our relationship and that is where I'm putting my foot down.

Ex-boyfriend: Hey pal, I can see whoever I want! (insert excuse to see your wife, threats, insults, etc.)
You: Stay the f*ck away from my wife.

---

Make sure your wife knows you do NOT want her to see him. This is not a jealousy thing, this not being over-protective. She's spending a lot of time with an ex-lover, and that is NOT OK. If she refuses to stop seeing him at risk of ending your marriage, then it's not important enough to her. Make sure you get the dog and the car, and joint custody if you have kids. Not much else you can do.

[wolfen]

It's sad, but it's time to move on.

[Mithras]

I must respectfully disagree with olePigeon. The time for clear statements has passed. Hash has made the situation and the seriousness clear to his wife, and she has shown that she does not accord the relationship the same seriousness. I suspect that the only thing keeping her from conceding that she wants out is an unwillingness to think of herself as a bad person. Hash, I'm really sorry it's come to this, but you really have to pursue the divorce now.

Do make sure you get to see a lawyer soon, anniversary or no. In fact, the anniversary will be incredibly painful anyway, so you might even feel better if you have things underway by then.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, i have two close friends who have undergone this recently, and both are really doing better now that they could ever have imagined before. This really will be an opportunity for you.

[Hash]

ok, met a lawyer today. I have copies of her some e-mails, letters the guy sent her. Received advice from the lawyer not to hurry with filing and wait for few days until dust settles and picture become clearer. Had a conversation with wife last night, she wanted divorce but when the talk began about actual filing and other legal matters, got a bit angry, don't know why. I will wait with filing for few days but I am quite tired of her nonsense.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally Posted by Hash

ok, met a lawyer today. I have copies of her some e-mails, letters the guy sent her. Received advice from the lawyer not to hurry with filing and wait for few days until dust settles and picture become clearer. Had a conversation with wife last night, she wanted divorce but when the talk began about actual filing and other legal matters, got a bit angry, don't know why. I will wait with filing for few days but I am quite tired of her nonsense.

Get rid of her and don't feel a bit of remorse. Anyone who starts a love triangle is irresponsible and not worth hanging on to. When you put her behind you you'll feel incredible liberated and creative again. As they say, plenty of fish in the sea. Something I didn't believe in before but now see that there are some great people out there who wouldn't ever do a thing to be untruthful or hurtful to you.

[goMac]

It sounds to me like she was hoping to lead you on as long as she could, keeping the marriage and her stuff on the side. As soon as she realized she hadn't pulled the wool over your eyes, she backed out immediately and went for divorce. But she won't be happy about it, she'd rather have the stability of the family and her stuff on the side.

Everything above however is opinion of me and may very well not be close to reality, but thats what I feel is happening.

[mrgaskell]

Originally Posted by Xeo

It's not up to him to get angry at the other guy.

F@@@ that! If a guy knows my wife is married and tries to get in there and get him some lovin', I'm kicking the crap out of him. And if I can't I find someone who can! Nothing worse than a guy who will mess with a married woman.

Woman are petty and superficial, men are supposed to be above that and have a little honor. That is why he deserves to die.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally Posted by mrgaskell

F@@@ that! If a guy knows my wife is married and tries to get in there and get him some lovin', I'm kicking the crap out of him. And if I can't I find someone who can! Nothing worse than a guy who will mess with a married woman.

Woman are petty and superficial, men are supposed to be above that and have a little honor. That is why he deserves to die.

It's not the other guys fault. It's hers. It's always the fault of the person getting the most - either money, sex, attention, whatever. It's called being selfish. He had no duty, she did.

[mrgaskell]

Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose

It's not the other guys fault. It's hers. It's always the fault of the person getting the most - either money, sex, attention, whatever. It's called being selfish. He had no duty, she did.

He has a moral obligation as a married man, a father and as a member of the community to NOT mess with someone else's wife, whether she is asking for it or not! To excuse his permissive behavior is rediculous, and denies the fact that we ALL have personal responsibility, no matter what prime time TV and the courts say.

All I know is if I catch you trying to shag my wife and you KNOW she is married, I will snip you off with an AR-15 from 500 meters and you will only hear the whistling of the round right before it hits you. I don't know about Hash, and this may come off insulting, but that just may be the reason why his marriage is this way: lack of passion/lack of showing his love for his family.

My wife knows I love her. She knows I will enthusiasticly lay down my life for her or our two daughters. She also knows how I feel about cheating, playing little games, and accomplises to cheating. The HB wants to be "playa" and shag his high school sweetheart? Well, he'd get what was coming to him. A good sized can of whoop-ass and a stern warning to not only not contact her, but to run the opposite direction.

BTW, the reason why ladies hate us is because we ASSUME they know how we feel. Females are physiologically verbal animals: They need to be told DAILY that they are beautiful, sexy and loved. In fact, I'm getting off the internet and am going to let her know that right now. I suggest you all do the same.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally Posted by mrgaskell

I will snip you off with an AR-15 from 500 meters and you will only hear the whistling of the round right before it hits you.

Base, unevolved animal instincts. People like you and cheating partners are only good for The Jerry Springer Show. When one considers what little value that show has then the kind of people who participate in it have less value and appeal than a moldy Big Mac a year past its sell by date. Do humanity a favour. Shoot yourself and please don't breed.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by mrgaskell

BTW, the reason why ladies hate us is because we ASSUME they know how we feel. Females are physiologically verbal animals: They need to be told DAILY that they are beautiful, sexy and loved. In fact, I'm getting off the internet and am going to let her know that right now. I suggest you all do the same.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Hash

Unfortunately, it seems those of you who were pessimistic were right. After some period I caught her sending mail to her mate, planning the meeting and saying smth like "I can't wait to meet you, bla-bla". This is after she repeatedly told how she's trying to save our marriage. I want to file for divorce. There are only 2 things that are precluding me from doing this: in 2 weeks there will anniversary of our marriage, and her meeting with the guy did not yet happen.

If her meeting with the guy hasn't happened yet, but was scheduled for sometime in April, then this puts it uncomfortably close to your anniversary. Not that any time would be 'comfortable', but this only serves to add insult to injury.

I'm sorry to hear about this, Hash. But everything I said before still applies, if not more so. You fought the good fight, and you went down with the proverbial sword in your hand.

However, that phase seems to be finished. Here's where we move from sympathy mode to protective mode. Get yourself a good lawyer, protect your evidence, and try to get custody of the kids. Let their mother have appropriate visitation rights -the custody battle will get nasty, but this should prevent the worst possibilities- but for their sake and yours, get custody for yourself. Don't settle for joint custody; that will be harder on them in the long run.

The only other thing I can think to do is that if you can stand to wait until summer, it would be a Good Idea to do so. Aside from being easier on your kids (since it won't disrupt the school year), it also gives you more time to gather evidence. However, this only works if you don't tell her you're going to do it, though, and that may weigh on your conscience. There's no shame in that; indeed, it's a Good Thing if it does.

If you can't wait that long, then there is no shame in that. This kind of pain does Things to people. I would warn you again to do nothing in anger -anger is natural, but it will get in your way- but do it now if you feel you must.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose

Get rid of her and don't feel a bit of remorse. Anyone who starts a love triangle is irresponsible and not worth hanging on to. When you put her behind you you'll feel incredible liberated and creative again. As they say, plenty of fish in the sea. Something I didn't believe in before but now see that there are some great people out there who wouldn't ever do a thing to be untruthful or hurtful to you.

One word: kids and also I don't want to give up to scumbag

[OreoCookie]

Maybe it's a good idea to take some time off, go somewhere with your kids (without her), maybe you can give the kids to your parents and then think about everything.

If you made the decision for yourself, and you're sure of it, make sure to discuss with her how you tell the kids. Remember: kids ain't stupid, good chances that they feel something is wrong.

[Mithras]

If you're willing to share, Hash, what state are you in? The rules vary quite a bit from state to state, and we might be better able to know what you can expect if you let us know...
...but if you'd rather not say, I understand.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by Millennium

If her meeting with the guy hasn't happened yet, but was scheduled for sometime in April, then this puts it uncomfortably close to your anniversary. Not that any time would be 'comfortable', but this only serves to add insult to injury.

I'm sorry to hear about this, Hash. But everything I said before still applies, if not more so. You fought the good fight, and you went down with the proverbial sword in your hand.

However, that phase seems to be finished. Here's where we move from sympathy mode to protective mode. Get yourself a good lawyer, protect your evidence, and try to get custody of the kids. Let their mother have appropriate visitation rights -the custody battle will get nasty, but this should prevent the worst possibilities- but for their sake and yours, get custody for yourself. Don't settle for joint custody; that will be harder on them in the long run.

The only other thing I can think to do is that if you can stand to wait until summer, it would be a Good Idea to do so. Aside from being easier on your kids (since it won't disrupt the school year), it also gives you more time to gather evidence. However, this only works if you don't tell her you're going to do it, though, and that may weigh on your conscience. There's no shame in that; indeed, it's a Good Thing if it does.

If you can't wait that long, then there is no shame in that. This kind of pain does Things to people. I would warn you again to do nothing in anger -anger is natural, but it will get in your way- but do it now if you feel you must.

I will wait. I will not give up. I will fight till last gasp for my family. We lived together happily more than 10 years and I am not going to give that all up cause one scumbag wants to ruin it, get my wife, get my wife's money and apartment (she has one in downtown she uses as an office), I know that he is seasonal construction worker, married and with kids, whom he hates (or so he writes in his mail). I invested all our saving into wife's business, all my love and life into supporting her and making her a successful entrepreneur and I am not going to give up only because one lazy fat a** is looking for easy money pretending being an eternal lover (after not seen her for 10 years).. yeah.. as soon as she told him about her business, he became suddenly such a loving person, who loved her all those years... yeah tell me that ********. I wish I could just shoot him, but I will never let him that luxury of ruining my life.. his fat a** does not cost even second of my life for me and I am going to live happily and prosper despite whatever this fat scumbag is planning, with my wife, with my kids, in my home and he will get 0 cents of our assets. Period!

[Mithras]

I'm happy to to see your anger, Hash. Sometimes I worried you were turning all of this onto yourself, putting yourself to blame, and just getting ground into the dirt. I think the anger means that you can stand on your two feet, or will eventually. And your analysis of his motives sounds very cogent.

(though I'd note that your wife could be the object of your anger, too.... but for your kids' sake, maybe it's better if you let it be externalized to this jerk.)

good luck, man.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Maybe it's a good idea to take some time off, go somewhere with your kids (without her), maybe you can give the kids to your parents and then think about everything.

This may not be a bad idea, but make sure you discuss this with your wife first if you plan on doing it. If you don't, you could be charged with kidnapping, and that would be bad.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Hash

I will wait. I will not give up. I will fight till last gasp for my family. We lived together happily more than 10 years and I am not going to give that all up cause one scumbag wants to ruin it, get my wife, get my wife's money and apartment (she has one in downtown she uses as an office), I know that he is seasonal construction worker, married and with kids, whom he hates (or so he writes in his mail). I invested all our saving into wife's business, all my love and life into supporting her and making her a successful entrepreneur and I am not going to give up only because one lazy fat a** is looking for easy money pretending being an eternal lover (after not seen her for 10 years).. yeah.. as soon as she told him about her business, he became suddenly such a loving person, who loved her all those years... yeah tell me that ********. I wish I could just shoot him, but I will never let him that luxury of ruining my life.. his fat a** does not cost even second of my life for me and I am going to live happily and prosper despite whatever this fat scumbag is planning, with my wife, with my kids, in my home and he will get 0 cents of our assets. Period!

Good. As much as I warn you to do nothing in anger, I'm glad to see that there is anger there. You have good self-control; you can bring it to the surface when you need it (and there are times when it's needed), but you don't let it get in your way.

This said, I'm confused. Earlier you mentioned talking to a lawyer and filing for divorce; have you changed your mind about this?

[Hash]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Good. As much as I warn you to do nothing in anger, I'm glad to see that there is anger there. You have good self-control; you can bring it to the surface when you need it (and there are times when it's needed), but you don't let it get in your way.

This said, I'm confused. Earlier you mentioned talking to a lawyer and filing for divorce; have you changed your mind about this?

Sorry for being unclear. When I found her new email, I decided its enough. I met then a lawyer, a friend of mine, who also promised his cooperation in my case, but he asked me to postpone the filing decision until things become clearer. I am sorry to confuse everyone here, but I am as much confused as you all. I thought I no longer can tolerate her behavior; I was asked to wait; and I decided to postpone this decision. Things are so unclear now that everyone is confused, including me, wife and our families, thats mainly because my wife managed to make everything so unclear and she openly admits now she is confused as well.

There was also another happening. I discussed the divorce with wife's sister on phone and after that her sister talked to wife.
It seems that my decision to file for divorce made everything suddenly accelerate; her sister is on my side basically - of course, I screwed a lot of things before, but she said she strongly disapproves wife's behavior. I guess that kind of family counseling had some effect on the wife. I could not manage her to visit counseling, but she had to listen to her sister. I do not know what her sister told her precisely, but maybe wife finally got a clue about how others view her behavior. She actually met her sister twice that day.

Her sister after the talk also asked me to wait. Since then I still had no talk with wife about problems, and basically I was so fed up with all these talks that even mentioning this mess causes me headache.

Now all talk about divorce is suddenly not any longer on agenda; I wonder what I am supposed to do. You see when I finally decided to divorce, everyone around jumped asking me to stop, reconsider and wait. And I suddenly thought as well what are motives of the other side of the e-mail affair. It was few hours ago and I seem to finally find a clue. Maybe I am wrong but the guy is after her money. Should I initiate divorce, she will get a major share of our assets, hell, i am going to surrender it to her just for kids. But thats a sweet pie for a construction worker without real job. I guess its his hidden target and not really his high school sweetheart, really long forgotten but suddenly found to be quite prospering. If its true, his plan is to get us divorced, then he has a chance. I do not know if its his real intention, but suddenly it makes everything clear. The only one victim is our kids; of course, scumbag never gave a **** about our kids. And I decided I will not file for divorce. These all things have happened last 24 hours.

[OreoCookie]

Take some time off, see my post above. Use it to clear your head. All this talk and advice is not gonna do any good. Also, this gives your wife time to decide, it's basically her decision.