[Super Mario]

It's got nothing to do with OpenDoc. It's about how a file makes itself ready for editing. Like it or not one of these days it will become an immediate natural process without the stupid splash screens. It's already happening on Surface and iPhone. Objects/files should be interactive. There shouldn't be a delay as you wait for an app to launch (unless it is a project file and not an image/text document/video/pdf file etc).

That's the way it is heading and it will gobble up memory but by then you'll be getting 4GBs of RAM for $100.

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by Eug 

So Automator now essentially dead?

Yeah it still exists in Leopard, but it seems nobody cares about it, not even Apple.

What makes you say that? Maybe it just hasn't been updated (like Exposé).

[krove]

Automator can record actions in Leopard.

[Chris Grande]

Originally Posted by lavar78 

What makes you say that? Maybe it just hasn't been updated (like Exposé).

Seems updated to me: http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/...automator.html

[JLL]

Originally Posted by Eug 

So Automator now essentially dead?

Yeah it still exists in Leopard, but it seems nobody cares about it, not even Apple.

Why do you think it's dead? The Leopard version is v2.0.

[Super Mario]

A review from marxy's musing on technology: Apple WWDC Keynote review

So far, the bad:

Bluetooth doesn't work, looks like there's no driver and blued constantly starts up and crashes.
I installed on battery, despite warnings, after using it for a while I guess it went flat but it suddenly shut the system down without any low battery warnings.
As with any new install spotlight indexing really kills the machine for a while, after installing developer tools the fan ran full for some time as a result
Microsoft Office X seems to have trouble, first time it just crashed before coming up. Second time it put up a window and then hangs.
NeoOffice also starts up but won't open a document or quit.
iChat has some problems with my buddy list from AOL, the same names appear several times for me.
The previous local build of python doesn't run:
"marxy:~ marksp$ python
-bash: /Users/marksp/ivms/bin/python: cannot execute binary file"
I guess it needs to be recompiled. Fair enough I guess.
My photos in iPhoto all look blurred for some reason in thumbnail size
All work: FireFox, BBEdit, TextMate, Komodo, Adium, OmniGraffle, GraphicConverter, iStumbler, SoundStudio, Yojimbo, Interarchy, MS RDC, Skype (as long as you don't try video),
I'm seeing some Font problems

The good,
Mail is really great, seems super fast
Spotlight much more responsive, no pauses as you type
Safari seems faster and now has that styled text editor as in FireFox (used in blogger for example)
New Finder, not as new as I had expected, seems solid and sensible.
Coverflow everywhere, yeah, whatever..
Quickview is useful I think, certainly seems fast.
Time Machine looks like it works really, really well.

I'll keep running it until I run into a show stopper, I guess NeoOffice and Word are a show stopper..

All in all, if this is the stability we we see four months before release , this is going to be a terrific version of MacOS X.

[smacintush]

I for one am 95% happy with what I've seen of Leopard.

Seriously, how overdue is new text2speech voices? I'd pay $129 just for a computer that doesn't sound like Joshua. (ok, maybe not…)

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

It's got nothing to do with OpenDoc. It's about how a file makes itself ready for editing. Like it or not one of these days it will become an immediate natural process without the stupid splash screens.

Then apps need to be written so they perform better and don't have load screens.

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

It's already happening on Surface and iPhone. Objects/files should be interactive. There shouldn't be a delay as you wait for an app to launch (unless it is a project file and not an image/text document/video/pdf file etc).

The iPhone loads fast because everything is stored in Flash and RAM. This is the idea behind speeding up programs by putting Flash memory into computers actually.

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

That's the way it is heading and it will gobble up memory but by then you'll be getting 4GBs of RAM for $100.

And programs will continue to grow and consume more RAM. I mean, I'd be thrilled if someone wrote a new version of Writenow so that my word processor used 180k of memory, but it's not happening.

Basically what you want is rolling back Multifinder and trying to roll everything back into one app. I don't think that really makes sense. Properly designed editors do launch near instantly on OS X anyway. You can open them and quit them on the fly to reallocate memory. And if one crashes it won't drag down the Finder with it. If we integrated programs with the Finder directly, we might as well just forget about protected memory.

Quick Look is the best way forward. It provides a method for a program to quickly preview a document without loading up a bunch more resources. If the user wants to edit the document, they can opt to throw more resources at it by sending it to an external editor, which if they already have open, will open the document instantly.

Once the Mac gets Flash memory support like Leopard supposedly has, we'll see app launch speeds start to get closer to app launch speeds on the iPhone.

[Super Mario]

Many apps will evolve into operating system plug ins. I am going to stick by that and when you see it happen you will eat it and love it. I have said it for years to people. Jobs has said that QuickLook has a plug in architecture and that is the foundation for the future when a designer won't have to launch an app like Photoshop anymore. Adobe will install Photoshop etc as a plug in and that will cut down lots of code because instead of using some of their own filters and open/save/print dialog boxes they can rely on Apple's own CoreImage etc frameworks to achieve the same ends.

Same with many other (but not all) apps. The only apps that will launch traditionally are those that save out to a project file that links to various files (like an FCP project file, etc). That would take more work to create a live preview icon that can scale up and allow work on immediately. We'll see the basic text, video and image documents do it first.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Many apps will evolve into operating system plug ins. I am going to stick by that and when you see it happen you will eat it and love it. I have said it for years to people. Jobs has said that QuickLook has a plug in architecture and that is the foundation for the future when a designer won't have to launch an app like Photoshop anymore. Adobe will install Photoshop etc as a plug in and that will cut down lots of code because instead of using some of their own filters and open/save/print dialog boxes they can rely on Apple's own CoreImage etc frameworks to achieve the same ends.

Same with many other (but not all) apps. The only apps that will launch traditionally are those that save out to a project file that links to various files (like an FCP project file, etc). That would take more work to create a live preview icon that can scale up and allow work on immediately. We'll see the basic text, video and image documents do it first.

And mankind will cease to exist as separate, selfish entities, but will combine into one consciousness of collective love.

I think mine is very slightly less likely, but not much. Again, read up on OpenDoc. You may say it has nothing to do with that, but that's somewhat contradicted by the fact that what you're talking about is exactly the same thing. Except your version is not only impractical, but it seems to ignore how technology actually works (developers don't have to actually write specific code to use CoreImage, they just somehow intend it into happening?).

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Many apps will evolve into operating system plug ins.

An application already is really a plug in to the operating system. It's executable code you are loading into your computers memory where it becomes part of your operating system. Except an application won't bring down your entire Finder when it crashes, unlike a Quick Look plugin.

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

I am going to stick by that and when you see it happen you will eat it and love it. I have said it for years to people. Jobs has said that QuickLook has a plug in architecture and that is the foundation for the future when a designer won't have to launch an app like Photoshop anymore.

This isn't a problem related to plugins though. Photoshop not using CoreImage is because of some internal decision at Adobe. Even so, CoreImage being part of OS X doesn't mean CoreImage is constantly primed and ready to go. Any CoreImage app still has to initialize CoreImage and OpenGL. And you still have to load up filters in CoreImage just like Adobe does.

The problem isn't that Photoshop's independent filter system is an issue, it's just that Adobe these days seems to poorly code anything they do. If Adobe had a version of Photoshop that used CoreImage, I bet it would have the exact same loading time as it instantiated all the CoreImage filters.

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Same with many other (but not all) apps. The only apps that will launch traditionally are those that save out to a project file that links to various files (like an FCP project file, etc). That would take more work to create a live preview icon that can scale up and allow work on immediately. We'll see the basic text, video and image documents do it first.

Again, what you're describing is the same thing we already have with applications. You tell the system you want to edit a document, it opens it in a window for you. You're complaining that applications don't open fast enough, which isn't really a flaw with the idea of an application. I've coded editors that open in a half a bounce. Really, with the applications that you're talking about, the reasons they take so long to open is because the programmers can't be bothered to properly optimize them. If you move those programs into Finder plugins, you're just moving all that bloat and memory usage into Finder. So now instead of Photoshop taking two minutes to load, your Finder will take two minutes to load, and in the meantime, you won't be able to get any work done. And if Photoshop crashes, it would crash your entire Finder, along with whatever other documents you were working on.

[mdc]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

anyone find images of the new folder icons?

That's about the best I noticed during the keynote.

[goMac]

I like the old Library icon better than the new one. Actually, I'm not sure I like the new ones at all. A little drab for my tastes. Give em back some color.

[- - e r i k - -]

Same as the current ProApps browser's folders by the looks of it.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I for one am 95% happy with what I've seen of Leopard.

Seriously, how overdue is new text2speech voices? I'd pay $129 just for a computer that doesn't sound like Joshua. (ok, maybe not…)

Any word on International support for Text-to-Speech? I have a vision-impaired friend who is *quite* interested in this.

[Super Mario]

Why doesn't goMac get the drift that I don't like him so stop wasting your keyboard on me. Such a majestic butt.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Why doesn't goMac get the drift that I don't like him so stop wasting your keyboard on me. Such a majestic butt.

And here I thought you two were having a discussion, where you were making fantasy wishes or stating the obvious or making ignorant comments, and he (and others) were explaining how things actually work and what is possible and what isn't.

And now your response is "Well, I never liked you anyway!"

I haven't heard that one since pre-school, except for comedic value!

[Hawkeye_a]

i dont like the new folder icons.

I think Stacks would have been more useful on the desktop where u click-and-hold and it expands into a comic-bubble.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

That is just the effect. I'm talking be able to edit and work on the document right when it scales up to full size. I know how Apple can achieve this but it requires application to install themselves as part of the OS and they run in memory (transparently in the background) when the OS boots up. When you enlarge a live preview icon and choose to edit the document then the tool bars appear.

An application does not have to be "part of the OS" and run all the time to show a zooming effect when a document is opened. All that needs to be done is passing the screen dimensions of the document to the application.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Any word on International support for Text-to-Speech? I have a vision-impaired friend who is *quite* interested in this.

http://www.cepstral.com/

[analogika]

Yeah, I know about those.

Would be nice not needing to bother, but I suppose they'll do.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

An application does not have to be "part of the OS" and run all the time to show a zooming effect when a document is opened. All that needs to be done is passing the screen dimensions of the document to the application.

I could have gone into more detail earlier about how it could work, how it doesn't effect the stability of the Finder (because it isn't part of the Finder...hint to goMac), how it could only load a part of the app at boot up time and then load other parts of the app as they are needed, etc etc. But that's Apple's job not ours to get into a huffy over. I am 1000% certain it will happen something like that to allow you to simply select your document and work on it right away. I'm even more certain that documents won't have a window drawn around them by the time 10.7 comes out or if 10.6 takes a long time then it will be by then.

[shinykaro]

Holy cow! I know this is sorta off-topic but there's definitely a correlation.

Anyone check the Apple stocks today? They're around $116 per share, early Monday morning they were over $125... that's a big drop... I guess people are underwhelmed by Leopard and nervous about the iPhone....

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by shinykaro 

Holy cow! I know this is sorta off-topic but there's definitely a correlation.

Anyone check the Apple stocks today? They're around $116 per share, early Monday morning they were over $125... that's a big drop... I guess people are underwhelmed by Leopard and nervous about the iPhone....

Like i said earlier this week, Google seems to be doing even worse. I guess people are nervous about the current "hot tech stocks" for whatever reason.

[Dakarʒ]

Funny, I was just thinking today, "When the hell did Google get to $500?"

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Like i said earlier this week, Google seems to be doing even worse. I guess people are nervous about the current "hot tech stocks" for whatever reason.

And of course, I had to buy at $520...

Oh well, at least I only bought two shares. And my main reason for doing it was that I love Google and live on most of their services now, so I figured owning a share or two would make the marriage complete.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by shinykaro 

Holy cow! I know this is sorta off-topic but there's definitely a correlation.

Anyone check the Apple stocks today? They're around $116 per share, early Monday morning they were over $125... that's a big drop... I guess people are underwhelmed by Leopard and nervous about the iPhone....

I've stopped trying to predict AAPL, but that said, it may just be part of that "buy on rumour, sell on news" phenomenon (esp. when that news is not that exciting).

Plus, everyone accuses Walt Mossberg of being an Apple schill, but he's almost dissing the iPhone.

“I don’t know whether I’ll give it a good review or not,” he said, noting that he will use the phone for the next couple of weeks before writing his review. “I can already see some things I don’t like about it. I see some other things that I do like a lot about it.”

He said a crucial question was whether the iPhone’s touch-screen keypad is an adequate replacement for the keyboards on BlackBerries and other advanced cellphones.

“They are claiming that through clever software they have figured out a way for this to be actually far more accurate and efficient than you think it will be, and I’m testing that proposition,” he said. “And I can tell you that in the first hour it works a little better than I thought, but I’m still not sure it works as well as a regular keyboard — and the first hour is not a very fair test, so I’m going to keep going at it.”

BTW, I sold at under $90. In retrospect that seems stupid, but then again I had made already 50% profit over what it cost to buy. Hindsight is 20/20, but 50% profit is still pretty damn good by most measures.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

That's the way it is heading and it will gobble up memory but by then you'll be getting 4GBs of RAM for $100.

That's a problem. As more resrouces are made cheaper and more available, source code is more crappily written (is crappily a word? ) and takes more resouces to use. Speed and overall increase in production do not increase.

86 Mac Plus Vs. 07 AMD DualCore. You Won't Believe Who Wins

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Plus, everyone accuses Walt Mossberg of being an Apple schill, but he's almost dissing the iPhone.

“I don’t know whether I’ll give it a good review or not,” he said, noting that he will use the phone for the next couple of weeks before writing his review. “I can already see some things I don’t like about it. I see some other things that I do like a lot about it.”

He said a crucial question was whether the iPhone’s touch-screen keypad is an adequate replacement for the keyboards on BlackBerries and other advanced cellphones.

“They are claiming that through clever software they have figured out a way for this to be actually far more accurate and efficient than you think it will be, and I’m testing that proposition,” he said. “And I can tell you that in the first hour it works a little better than I thought, but I’m still not sure it works as well as a regular keyboard — and the first hour is not a very fair test, so I’m going to keep going at it.”

I don't see any of that being a dis. It sounds more than reasonable to say you need to try it out for 2 weeks before you can give an opinion.

Just about every phones keypad I hate and am slow as hell with for the first month or so. After that I am a wiz at it.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I don't see any of that being a dis. It sounds more than reasonable to say you need to try it out for 2 weeks before you can give an opinion.

Just about every phones keypad I hate and am slow as hell with for the first month or so. After that I am a wiz at it.

That's why I said "almost".

But seriously, I betcha the main reason Mossberg got an iPhone is because he usually gives Apple products glowing reviews. For him to be ambivalent on the iPhone is probably a pretty negative vibe for some investors.

[Kerrigan]

Give Walt more credit than that... if he really were biased about Apple products, would he make this blatantly obvious by praising a product after using it for 1 hour? In this scenario, ambivalence is necessary.

[airfanh]

Anywhere I can download the keynote? Thanks

(I cant seem to stream it from Apple's website, they must have limited it to the US for now)

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

That's a problem. As more resrouces are made cheaper and more available, source code is more crappily written (is crappily a word? ) and takes more resouces to use. Speed and overall increase in production do not increase.

86 Mac Plus Vs. 07 AMD DualCore. You Won't Believe Who Wins

Well that benchmark test was all skewed fun. If you look at what happened in the last few years hardware specs have outraced software "bloat". From the look of things Leopard will run just as well on my G4 as Panther did when I bought my Mac. Tiger runs better than Panther. Photoshop CS3 runs better than the original CS. We are getting faster and cheaper hardware at a pace that software developers can't keep up with. It is the reverse of what was happening from 1995-2000 when software was pushing hardware. Now software developers are trying to figure out how to take advantage of all the hardware coming out. They'll never catch up at this pace until the chip (CPU, memory and GPU) makers hit a brick wall.

I pointed out too in my last post that software integrated as an OS plug in would be modular. Unlike today's apps that launch all in one go, an integrated app would load features and tools as you need them. That makes the initial application start up very lightweight.

One good example of a QuickLook plug in that would work as an app in 10.5 would be disc burning. A company like Roxio could develop a plug in so that when you select a .dmg file and press space bar, the file icon scales up into a window that shows the disc image's contents and gives you options to mount or burn the image to CD, make a DVD out of a video file, etc

[shinykaro]

Originally Posted by airfanh 

Anywhere I can download the keynote? Thanks

(I cant seem to stream it from Apple's website, they must have limited it to the US for now)

You can download it if you have Quicktime Pro. Not that I do...

[Lateralus]

You can?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

I pointed out too in my last post that software integrated as an OS plug in would be modular. Unlike today's apps that launch all in one go, an integrated app would load features and tools as you need them. That makes the initial application start up very lightweight.

Again, there is nothing stopping apps from loading what they need as they go, aside from developers being idiots.

Basically what you are suggesting is the same thing as applications. Except in your idea programmers aren't stupid.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Again, there is nothing stopping apps from loading what they need as they go, aside from developers being idiots.

Basically what you are suggesting is the same thing as applications. Except in your idea programmers aren't stupid.

I think I'll just block you because you don't get it when I say I'm not interested in talking to you at all.

[analogika]

I think he gets *exactly* what you're saying, but you're not getting what *he's* saying.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Eug 

the main reason Mossberg got an iPhone is because he is a tech journalist.

Fix0r3d.™

I somehow sincerely doubt that Walt Mossberg is the only journalist who got an iPhone for review.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by analogika 

I think he gets *exactly* what you're saying, but you're not getting what *he's* saying.

mmmm

block goMac
block analogika
block besson3c

That's better. A Mac forum free of Islamist apologist, a Linux coder wannabe who doesn't know jack **** about CSS and Dreamweaver, and a fat goat bearded Nintendo fanboy who thinks he knows everything and won't let you have an opinion.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Islamist apologist

only on MacNN!

Damn, there are some stupid people around.



So you're that Obi Wan's Asshole's alter-ego, eh? Interesting.

[Super Mario]

Damn I have get to read posts by nutcases when I am not logged in! DRATS. I was in MacNN iBliss. A forum free of three knuckleheaded self gratifiers. Double drats!

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by analogika 

only on MacNN!

Damn, there are some stupid people around.



So you're that Obi Wan's Asshole's alter-ego, eh? Interesting.

OK. Reported.

[Super Mario]

Ding dong!

Back to Leopard!

[- - e r i k - -]

Seems there might be some truth to that theory analogika. Funny how he suddenly showed up in this thread.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Seems there might be some truth to that theory analogika. Funny how he suddenly showed up in this thread.

Cmon, you're my alter ego. When the drugs wear off you will see.

[Dakarʒ]

This thread is happening.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by mdc 

Maybe not.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by analogika 

So you're that Obi Wan's Asshole's alter-ego, eh? Interesting.

Huh? You better not be talking about SWG.

[Dakarʒ]

6 posts up