[moki]

::lights the fuse and runs away quickly::

from: http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=4741

.....

Pickett: The Roots of American Self-Loathing

Musings and comments of a like minded writer...

By Joseph Pickett - The Washington Times

If it were possible to seize a phrase of the English language by the vowels, drag it behind the barn and blast it center mass with old Dad's 12 gauge, I would cheerfully nominate the vile "Why do they hate us?"

This sick question, along the lines of asking a bloodied, violated woman "Why did he rape you?", has been posed approximately 417,541,520 times since Sept. 11, 2001 by a gaggle of allegedly intelligent American self-loathers who fancy themselves as good world citizens. I reluctantly suspect them of intelligence because most who mouth this phrase have all the normal trappings of the brainy class.

For example, garden-variety self-loathers find more fault with America than with butchers in the Middle East who treat their people worse than we treat body lice. The self-loathers respect the opinion of the thugocratic United Nations, that delightful unelected international body, chockablock with murderous tyrants, dictators, and slightly more palatable EU socialists. Self-loathers have flawless teeth whitened by fluoridated water, gilded diplomas hanging elegantly on the pastel walls of their tastefully decorated homes, the latest New York Times sheathed in recycled blue bags and plopped in their smooth concrete driveways, environmentally-conscious vehicles sitting in their 2.5 car garages, and clean fingernails. Self-loathers live lovely and comfortable lives, enough so that they have the heretofore unimagined luxury of denigrating the very country whose Constitution, values, and economic system has given them the unprecedented opportunity to bask in a luxurious existence where the most dire question is not where to find a protein source or potable water today, but which Ivy League school to send Junior to 12 years hence? Or, more to the point, why do bloodthirsty Muslim terrorists want to turn us into bloody vapor with C-4 and nails instead of give us a tender group hug?

According to the self-loathers, everyone in their Sunday knitting circles is debating the roots of misguided, warped Muslims' unfortunate tendency to blow up things with infidels in them. And they mean everyone they know - their 82 year-old mothers, brothers, friends, street mimes, dock workers, heck, everyone except the 16 year-old pimply bag boy at Safeway, who undoubtedly would be asking 'Like, you know, why do they hate us, dude?' if government education had taught him to read at the 8th grade level at which most newspapers are written.

The answer, according to self-loathers? "Fear, envy, frustration, poverty, cultural conflict." Now that's par-for-the-course, boilerplate pabulum from the self-loathing class. Strictly bush league stuff. But hold on. I have also read other 'root causes' recently that self-loathers blame for our troubles. Ready? They also blame:

American tourists, who are, "overloud, overweight, over here...who misbehave without even knowing they are causing offense." That's right, my fellow world travelers! The reason that doll-faced 4 year-old non-Muslim tots are disemboweled each day by Islamofascists is because - drum roll please! - loud, obese American tourists are contributing American dollars to the economies of Egypt, Turkey, and Indonesia! Of course! Why didn't I think of that? Recall the tourists ASAP. (Not so fast - I know those old ladies are hard on the eyes, but John, these economic basket cases can use all the greenbacks they can get.) Free tip to travelers: If you are going abroad, remember to speak in hushed tones and wear a potato sack.

American consumers, who "use things up." From having the audacity to wash our Pontiacs with precious fluids and not saying a prayer of thanks beforehand, to driving those gas-gobbling SUVs to the grocery store, to taking 15 minute showers, ordinary Americans are causing genocide just by how they go about their daily lives! Imagine, the next time you daydream in the shower about Laurie Dhue, boom. Another innocent life snuffed out in Sudan! Free tip to consumers: Even though Muslim nations have practically self-immolated with their horrific human rights records, the enslavement of half their populations, and their totalitarian economies, forget about all that. Save a life. Cut those showers short, and walk to work. Don't work hard when you get there, either.

American oil consumers. Those pesky consumers again, doggone it! Apparently, in his trips to the Middle East, John can't explain how Americans manage to use so much oil. Free tip to drivers: If someone asks you this, point out that the United States produces 25 percent of the world's stuff and has about 5 percent of the world's population. If you suspect the person who asks you could be a terrorist though, just nod and make sympathetic noises.

American entertainment. A lot of our worst culture - action movies, soft porn, reality TV, Friends (gag) - is gobbled up eagerly by audiences abroad. I would blame human nature in general for this one, but what the heck, blame Hollywood. Self-loathers blame everyone else in America, so why not overpaid actors and directors? Free tip to Hollywood: Start exporting documentaries on frolicking beavers, but for God's sake, make sure the beavers look unhappy and aren't fornicating.

These original answers to "Why do they hate us?" should win the author a life achievement award for brazen self-hatred and a free year of psychoanalysis. But, really, it's just more of the same bilge this crowd has been spouting since 9/11. Like all the self-loathers' explanations for terrorist actions, each of them holds Americans personally responsible for the unfriendly feelings that others harbor against us. Why? If a Muslim kills me because I have a nicer house than he does, is it his fault or mine? Reverse the situation. If I kill a Saudi national on the streets of D.C. because he drives a nicer car than I do, is it his fault? Or mine? If I don't like the turban Mohammed is wearing on the subway platform and I push him in front of a train, is his religion to blame? Or am I? If peasants in Saudi Arabia relieve themselves in holes in the ground and have no drinkable water while their leaders live in golden palaces, is it my fault? Or the Saudi government's fault? Are the successes (and excesses) of successful nations responsible for the violent actions of others?

The self-loathers, of course, would answer it's my fault when I do something bad, and also my fault when a Muslim is offended by something I do and does something bad in response, as well. This highlights the breathtaking arrogance at the foundation of their specious arguments. The self-loathers are assuming that Muslims can't be held to the West's own elevated standards. The poor Muslims are more like wild animals, whose savagery should not be provoked by our foolishness. When we do provoke them, the consequences are entirely our fault. This isn't simply arrogance. It's moral racism. But through it all, the self-loathers feel good about themselves, which is what the game is all about anyway.

Despite the self-indulgent, arrogant navel-gazing by the self-loathers who always blame America, some free-thinking Americans believe that America isn't the problem and Muslims aren't primitive savages who can't help themselves. Rather, if the world's Muslim peoples could prosper under semi-modern governments (say, 19th century?) that embrace democracy, freedom, free markets, secularism, and human rights, terrorism would wither away. Some of us think that the heart of the terrorist problem rests with the so-called 'governments' that run Muslim nations, what people in less polite circles refer to as 'repressive Third World dictatorial fascist states with GDPs less than Des Moines' that use the USA and Israel as scapegoats to explain their miserably failed societies.' After all, when you think of an Islamic nation success story, a real economic powerhouse and a beacon of freedom and religious tolerance, one thinks of.....Saudi Arabia? Egypt? Qatar? Says a lot, doesn't it?
Dec. 8, 2002
J.M.P.

The Wonder Years - Thank God I Missed Them
1970 wasn't exactly a high water mark in the history of the Republic. It was the year of Apollo 13, the Vietnam War was blowing up nicely in our faces, and the first Earth Day took place in May of that year (a seminal event in the lives of some, no doubt). Plus, knee-capping hothead Tonya Harding came into the world on November 12, 1970, and so did I. No, definitely not a perfect year by any stretch.

Still, I could have done a heck of a lot worse than to be born in 1970. I could have been born a year earlier. I could have been born in the 1960s. For most of my adult life, I have had to bear people with gray ponytails as they wax orgasmic about the 60s. All that free love, cheerful embracing of communist murder states, those heady 'Hanoi Jane' years, and living in smelly VWs sound tempting, I grant you, but I thank my maker that I missed out. You see, after years of careful observation and gathering facts from CNN, the New York Times, and Maureen Dowd columns, I have reached this highly scientific conclusion: A hair-raising number of people who 'came of age' in the 1960s are out of their friggin' minds.

(continues)

[moki]

My parents were already adults with adult responsibilities in the mid-60s, and they taught me that I'm supposed to respect my elders. But when a sizable group of people in their 40s and 50s act like their heads are full of boiled oatmeal, sorry, I have to speak up.

They are whacked, my friends. Toys in the attic. Their brains went on a permanent Magical Mystery Tour around 1968 and were never heard from again. They make Michael Jackson look well-adjusted (who just so happens to have come of age in - the 1960s). Many of these people are 20 years+ older than I am, and I wouldn't trust them to water my petunias for the weekend. People of that age generally run the United States Congress today, which explains a lot.

I'm not sure what happened to these folks (I will refer to them as 'the brain dead' or TBD, from here on out). I was but a thought in my parents' minds when CCR was in their hey-day, so I can only speculate what caused the brain development of TBD to cease in mid-to-late adolescence. Drugs? Maybe, but I did pot in 1988-89, and today I don't view the United States and Iraq as moral equivalents, or the thugocratic UN as a beacon of democratic light. What's TBD's excuse? Rebellion? I have passing familiarity with the tendency to oppose parental influence during adolescence. The infamous gallon-of-cheap-red-wine incident circa 1988 comes to mind. But I settled into relatively normal adulthood after college when the mortgage and car payments began to kick in. Why are TBD, who also are saddled with adult responsibilities now, so mindlessly obtuse when it comes to the defense of our nation and countless other issues? A few examples in the arena of public policy when the empty craniums of TBD are embarrassingly on display:

The 2nd Amendment - According to TBD, only government militias have the right to bear arms (And if a killer is breaking down your door? Dissuade him with race and gender-neutral harsh language and call 911). Funny, when I was in high school, we learned that the young United States had broken from the tyrannical Crown by killing people and breaking things with arms (not with words and peace treaties, Mr. Carter, or by breaking bread with tyrants, for that matter). So the Founding Fathers responded by guaranteeing the right to bear arms to...the government? Note to the brain dead: Please write 1,000 times on the nearest writing surface: All rights under the Constitution are vested in individuals by God.

Iraq - TBD give many reasons why we shouldn't take out the murderous thug Saddam Hussein. The US didn't do anything about him before (The difference: 9/11), we gave him some of his current weapons during the Iran-Iraq war (The difference: 9/11), his tendency to torture dissidents, rip out tongues, employ professional rapists didn't bother us before (The difference: 9/11), why don't we hit Iran and N. Korea as well (one at a time, fellas. And remember the difference: 9/11). Somehow, the vicious murder of 3,000 innocent Americans on a sunny late summer day, which caused the largest shift in US foreign policy since World War II, doesn't seem to have registered with TBD. Were they watching PBS that day?

After terrorist savages ran planes into buildings on 9/11, I thought for awhile that TBD would be jolted into reality, but no. The other day when I was leaving the gym, I saw a graying 50ish man climb into his Ford Focus. On the rear was this bumper sticker - "Stop Terrorism. Stop Bush." Two things are certain in this life: My Cleveland Browns will never appear in the Super Bowl, and TBD will always be just that.
J.M.P.

Knocking Themselves Out
I once saw a kid on the playground whose face was a bloody mess. He had been running like hell on the playground and not watching where he was going. He ran full tilt into a brick wall headfirst. He survived, but I think he rode the short bus after that day.

The Democrats are like that. Since the 2002 elections, they've been concentrating so hard looking back on why they lost control of Congress, they aren't looking out for those sturdy brick walls in front of them. They're going to knock some teeth loose if they keep this up. Picking Nancy Pelosi to be minority leader in the House is one example. The Democratic caucus has to be pretty woozy to pick a San Franciso Marxist like Nancy as the 'new' face of the party. I am breathless in anticipation for her fresh ideas - the Soviet Union already tried bread lines and five-year plans. Postscript: They didn't work, and these days, former Warsaw Pact nations are clamoring to join NATO.

Another is Tom Daschle's bizarre news conference recently when he implied that criticism of him on the Rush Limbaugh radio program had increased the threats against Daschle's family. Any hard evidence backing this slanderous accusation wasn't disclosed.

The New York Times reports Daschle as saying, "What happens when Rush Limbaugh attacks those of us in public life is that people aren't satisfied just to listen," Mr. Daschle said. "They want to act because they get emotionally invested. And so, you know, the threats to those of us in public life go up dramatically...that's very disconcerting."

The Times continues, "If entertainment becomes so much a part of politics," he said, "and if that entertainment drives an emotional movement in this country....that troubles me about where politics in America is going."

More: "...we think, [regarding terrorism] how can religious fundamentalism become so violent? Well, it's that same shrill rhetoric, it's that same shrill power that motivates. Somebody says something, and then it becomes a little more shrill the next time... and pretty soon it's a foment that becomes physical in addition to just verbal. And that's happening in this country."

Let's digest this, shall we, class? Tom Daschle is implying that:

A hugely popular mainstream conservative (Want proof? Limbaugh has a contract worth about $25 million and 21 million listeners) is inciting people to violence by having the nerve discuss news topics and analyze political stories of the day.


Limbaugh's listeners are robotic barbarians who need only to have their violent tendencies channeled and directed for them to be transformed into frothing criminals (that is, Limbaugh exercising his 1st Amendment rights causes people to do bad things, and it's Limbaugh's fault when they do).


Limbaugh exercising his right to free speech and our hearing his words is akin to militant Islamofascists, who think Jews are apes, telling their followers to kill the infidel.

Hmmm. One wonders, is an assault on a highly popular media personality and slandering the intelligence of a sizable chunk of the electorate a standard play in the Democratic Party primer when they come up short on Election Day? Is this their winning strategy to get back in the voters' good graces? This is a most curious political strategy. What's next? Persuade men to vote for higher taxes by kneeing them in the groin? Ask women to support abortion by stabbing them in the uterus? I would think they would want to try something more basic, such as detail their policy positions and explain why Americans should support them. Well, that's why Terry Mac and James Carville get the big bucks. They must know something I don't.

Still, I wonder if Daschle is listening to the same show I am. Here's a quote from Limbaugh's show recently: "Guess who John F. Kerry is getting presidential candidacy advice from, ladies and gentlemen? None other than The Loser, Michael S. Dukakis. I don't think God is generous enough to give us another liberal Massachusetts Democrat to run against."

What barbarism. What moral depravity. Now put the knives back in the drawer, right-wingers. Sit back in your Lazy-Boy, pop another beer, and please don't kick the dog. No threats or violence, okay?

What I don't understand is why is Daschle only concerned with what is coming from right-wing radio. If he is so concerned about shrill rhetoric that incites violence, he should examine what comes from people on his side of the aisle. How about two years ago when CBS ran a shot of Gov. George Bush at the GOP convention with a caption underneath that said "Snipers Wanted"? What a laugh riot - my sides are splitting - and even more amusing after the recent sniper rampage in the D.C. area. How about when Alec Baldwin suggested that Rep. Henry Hyde and his family should be stoned to death? Pretty harsh, but at least Baldwin was culturally inclusive of Islam in his choice of death sentence for Hyde and his loved ones. What about the DNC ad last month of Bush pushing an old-timer in a wheelchair off a cliff? Did Daschle ask the NAACP to pull its TV ad in 2000 that basically accused Bush of lynching a black man in Jasper, Texas? Amusing episodes, all.

Perhaps Sen. Daschle really believes that Rush Limbaugh reading Wall Street Journal op-eds on the air and commenting on them causes people to beat their wives and attack politicians with sharp instruments. It appears to the casual observer, however, that he is sniveling and whining after a hard day at the ballot box, and also that his path to future victory is to silence the people who disagree with him. One also wonders if this is the beginning of a sinister campaign to limit the freedoms of talk radio with the new 'campaign finance reform laws' (also known as a blatant violation of the 1st Amendment). Remember how Clinton tied the right-wing to Timothy McVeigh? This isn't just poor sportsmanship. It's un-American.

As a Republican, if Daschle and his cohorts in the Democratic Party want to keep bashing their skulls like this, I'll be happy to keep pointing them in the direction of the nearest brick wall on which to bloody themselves. I think their next target should be apple pie - I heard somewhere that eating it causes racism and low self-esteem in children of color.

[eklipse]

Drivel.

[theolein]

Wow, the first couple of paragraphs could have come from you personally, moki. The rest of the piece makes me think that the author hates himself almost as much as he hates his parents for being hippies and spends exactly one line on the vietnam war, while expanding on his disgust with a generation that had had taken an experimental and unexpected turn in "nation building" as you so findly call it.

He verily froths at the mouth in his hatred of communism, which while it is very true that most communist states were masters of oppression and murder, doesn't even attempt to ask why the young people of the time were so against fighting in war that they had nothing to do with.

He, in yet another boring article of total misunderstanding, takes the easy and delusional road and paints his world view in exactly two colours: Black and White.

It is exactly that mindset and form of thinking that is the problem with nationalists and Islamic fanatics alike and is responsible for so many of the horrors of human history. The fact that there are so many shades of grey between those two extremes is what makes life difficult and that which makes those unable to cope grasp for a simpler view of things, this giving psychopathic killers and ultra nationalists something in common.

I'm sure you don't believe me, but for that I have a simple answer. What happens in almost every country when the economy or the health of the country is in a bad state? People tend to then vote for the party that will promise them salvation from their trials and tribulations. This is the reason so many Moslems support conservative Islam which promises salvation. This is the reason so many Germans voted for the Nazis in 1933 after the depression. This is the reason the communists originally got so much support in countries that had had oppresive dictators before. This is the reason why conservative political parties generally do well in Europe and the USA when things are looking bleak.

It's not rocket science...

at least not to everyone

[icruise]

These are so long that I really can't take the time to address everything, but the whole idea that liberals "hate America" really makes my blood boil. Which does you think is a better example of love, a parent who praises whatever their children do, no matter what? Or one who takes their children to task if they do wrong, and tries to make them a better person? Liberals don't hate America. It's because they love it that they want to make it a better place. What is so hard to understand about that?

[moki]

Originally posted by theolein:
Wow, the first couple of paragraphs could have come from you personally, moki.

Oh puhlease, give me some credit... sheesh. Just because I post something doesn't mean I agree with it...

[christ]

He's right, Americans are doing nothing wrong, it is the rest of the world that are at fault.

And the rest of the world should know that, because:

American tourists, who are, "overloud, overweight, over here...who misbehave without even knowing they are causing offense." help to show the rest of the world that America is right, and not arrogant at all.

American (oil) consumers, who "use things up." have every right to do so, after all they can afford it, and its not their fault that others can't.

Again moki, this chap's insight into the fact that 'why does the rest of the world hate you' actually means 'why do we hate ourselves' is spot on, and following his line will win you worldwide respect.

OTOH, I would suggest that you read this article, in detail, as if it were a 10th grade essay, and point out to yourself every fallacious sentence. Delete those, and you will be left with a by-line and not much else.

[theolein]

Originally posted by moki:
Oh puhlease, give me some credit... sheesh. Just because I post something doesn't mean I agree with it...

Why should I? Your string of propaganda articles in your campaign to bedevil other countries' form of government andpromote your own fits in nicely with this mans views, even if your own are less extreme.

How about actually writing a comment longer than one sentence instead of the usual one liner and long quoted article, for a change? Explain why you post the things you do. You know, engage in the debate that you supposedly want to create instead of enflaming opinions.

[moki]

Originally posted by theolein:
Why should I? Your string of propaganda articles in your campaign to bedevil other countries' form of government andpromote your own fits in nicely with this mans views, even if your own are less extreme.

Oh GIVE IT A REST. Discussing the pension system in countries in Europe is not "bedeviling" anything. They were not "propaganda" articles, they were very accurate, poignant articles, and you'll find dozens like them in various publications all over Europe.

You just took it personally that someone was discussing an issue that involved the underbelly of a country other than the US. Or are you going to tell me that pension reform is not a massively huge issue in many countries in Europe?

It's really rather ridiculous -- my brother lived in Europe (Madrid) for 8 years, and I've come to love many things about Europe. This bizarre label you've slapped on me simply because I have discussed a very few issues concerning Europe the same way you've discussed a great many issues concerning the US in the same manner.

[chris v]

When a Republican expresses skepticism towards a Democratic administration, it is righteously casting a jaundiced eye on a bloated, self-serving and untrustworthy bureaucracy.

When a Democrat expresses skepticism towards a Republican administration, it is "American self-loathing."

This is just about the most clear-cut case of cognitive dissonance I can think of.

CV

[moki]

Originally posted by chris v:
This is just about the most clear-cut case of cognitive dissonance I can think of.

Amazing what partisanship will do, no?

[chris v]

Originally posted by moki:
Amazing what partisanship will do, no?

I'm skeptical of everybody.

I don't give the Dems a free ride, either. It's amusing, though, now that the shoe's on the other foot, how suddenly the Govt. can do no wrong, according to the same people who 4 years ago basically wanted the fed abolished.

CV

[Spliffdaddy]

whoa.

Direct hit.

That article exactly sums up the America-haters.

[petehammer]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
whoa.

Direct hit.

That article exactly sums up the America-haters.

Direct hit? You okay?

The article is a bunch of "holier-than-thou" crap, furthering the "our way or the highway" propaganda.

So, America is without fault? Other countries hate us just to have something to do?

[chris v]

Originally posted by petehammer:
Other countries hate us just to have something to do?

Afghani notes-to-self:

Monday A.M. Plant poppies P.M. Sweep sidewalk
Tuesday A.M. Make mudbricks P.M. Freetime-- Hate America? (Check w. Osama)

CV

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by chris v:
Afghani notes-to-self:

Monday A.M. Plant poppies P.M. Sweep sidewalk
Tuesday A.M. Make mudbricks P.M. Freetime-- Hate America? (Check w. Osama)

CV

ROTFLMAO!!!

Thanks, I needed that. Post of the week.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by chris v:
When a Republican expresses skepticism towards a Democratic administration, it is righteously casting a jaundiced eye on a bloated, self-serving and untrustworthy bureaucracy.

When a Democrat expresses skepticism towards a Republican administration, it is "American self-loathing."

Right. You know, just as many conservatives blamed the US for 9/11 as liberals. You still hear them blaming the Clinton administration. Didn't Pat Robertson blame it on gays in San Francisco or something?

If there's a problem with America, it sure as hell isn't too much self-loathing. We are the self-esteem society. We're #1! You-Ess-Ayy, You-Ess-Ayy! The level of patriotism and feelings of cultural superiority here is probably higher than in any other (well maybe except France). We're constantly told that what's great about America is that we can speak our mind and elect our leaders, as if we're somehow the only liberal democracy in the world.

Nope, self-loathing is hardly a problem; a little more self-criticism would be a good thing.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Why? If a Muslim kills me because I have a nicer house than he does, is it his fault or mine? Reverse the situation. If I kill a Saudi national on the streets of D.C. because he drives a nicer car than I do, is it his fault? Or mine? If I don't like the turban Mohammed is wearing on the subway platform and I push him in front of a train, is his religion to blame? Or am I? If peasants in Saudi Arabia relieve themselves in holes in the ground and have no drinkable water while their leaders live in golden palaces, is it my fault? Or the Saudi government's fault? Are the successes (and excesses) of successful nations responsible for the violent actions of others?

And as usual, no one could address head on a single point the article made, or answer a single question raised.

Typical.

[thunderous_funker]

Seems Arabs are smart enough to realize what Americans continue to be in denial about--those despotic regimes wouldn't surive without the overt manipulation and support of the US government.

Victimhood begins with thinking that crimes happen in a vaccuum. As always, it is the innocent caught in the middle of these global struggles that suffer the most. While the victims slash at each other in a hatred-filled cycle of violence, the tyrannies that pull the strings quietly concentrate their power and escape justice.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by petehammer:
Direct hit? You okay?

The article is a bunch of "holier-than-thou" crap, furthering the "our way or the highway" propaganda.

So, America is without fault? Other countries hate us just to have something to do?

You're missing the point. You can't really argue with... well, anything, really.
What spliffy means is that if people disagree with the article and say so, it MUST be a direct hit. Make sense? No? Well, there it is. It is spliffy's answer for ANY argument with which he agrees. In fact, that is a huge answer for quite few arguments here. The harder you argue, the "more right" that against which you argue MUST be correct.


chris- nice post. Well put.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by maxelson:
You're missing the point. You can't really argue with... well, anything, really.
What spliffy means is that if people disagree with the article and say so, it MUST be a direct hit. Make sense? No? Well, there it is. It is spliffy's answer for ANY argument with which he agrees. In fact, that is a huge answer for quite few arguments here. The harder you argue, the "more right" that against which you argue MUST be correct.


chris- nice post. Well put.

brilliant observation...as per usual.

nice to see you back in the trenches.

[theolein]

Originally posted by moki:
Oh GIVE IT A REST. Discussing the pension system in countries in Europe is not "bedeviling" anything. They were not "propaganda" articles, they were very accurate, poignant articles, and you'll find dozens like them in various publications all over Europe.

You just took it personally that someone was discussing an issue that involved the underbelly of a country other than the US. Or are you going to tell me that pension reform is not a massively huge issue in many countries in Europe?

It's really rather ridiculous -- my brother lived in Europe (Madrid) for 8 years, and I've come to love many things about Europe. This bizarre label you've slapped on me simply because I have discussed a very few issues concerning Europe the same way you've discussed a great many issues concerning the US in the same manner.

Moki, I was NOT the person who made five (5) seperate new threads in one(1) week, ALL of which were on the SAME subject! I am NOT one of those people who make regular criticisms of the USA on idealogical grounds. I dislike specifically George Bush's government and it's policies and am simply amazed at the way he spends money. I still maintain that you made that string of posts in order to prove a point where you had to be badgered into coming out and saying what it is you directly dislike, instead of just making the point yourself in the first place. Even spacefreak says what he likes and dislikes...

P.S. I (personally) worked for the USAF in Berlin for a while in the 80's. Should that make me take another position on this???

[zigzag]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
And as usual, no one could address head on a single point the article made, or answer a single question raised.

Typical.

I could easily address the original piece point-by-point but it would take 2 days and clog up the servers. Not because the guy doesn't make any valid points - he does - but because the piece is long, rambling, and oversimplified, and a response would by necessity be even longer and more rambling in order to deal with the issues with any depth. It's a rant, not an analysis, and it's inherently difficult to respond to rants in an orderly way. What do you say to someone who describes everyone with a different point of view as "brain dead"? I generally just stop reading when I see that stuff, whether it comes from the left or right. Everyone's entitled to a good rant now and then but responding is usually futile.

[rampant]

Some people are always cherry-picking sensationalistic stories that make the US look good and ignoring anything remotely negative.

[moki]

Originally posted by rampant:
Some people are always cherry-picking sensationalistic stories that make the US look good and ignoring anything remotely negative.

Sorry my simian friend, but I have indeed said many things critical of the administration.

[rampant]

Originally posted by moki:
Sorry my simian friend, but I have indeed said many things critical of the administration.

You used the word "simian" as some kind of hyper-elitist insult! How witty and refined, you must be intelligent!

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by moki:
Sorry my simian friend, but I have indeed said many things critical of the administration.

can you guys just fight over PMs?

[maxelson]

I suppose this begs the question: HAS the US done anything wrong in this action? Soldiers, civilians, Administration? Anything? Anyone? Or are we simply Spliffy's constantly alluded to ideal that Might Makes Right?

I ask the question because it seems that no matter the critique, there is a group that will jump up and slam it down. I want to see that group's critiques. I want to know where YOU think the US has gone off the mark, has committed crimes, has erred in spectacular and ugly fashion. I want to know where you think Bush is WRONG in relation to this whole series of events. Is there, in fact, ANY evidence that there are any screw ups at all? Intentional or otherwise? WHAT, exactly, do you party faithful question (besides the liberal media conspiracy)?

Last question: what magical news source have you guys got that is beyond reproach?

[chris v]

Well, laws being what they are, and breaking them being illegal and all, I'd have to say that perhaps we should scrutinize the American Govt.s activities in Iran in the 50's Guatemala from the early 1900's on up the the late 80's Chile in the 70's Nicaragua and the clearly illegal funding of the "Contras," East Timor in the 70's, El Salvador in the 80's, Venezuela just last year, The D.R. of the Congo in '63, and Hiroshima, Nagasaki, both in 1945.

But to even think that our foreign policy blunders I've just listed might have had negative consequences or caused a jaundiced view of the U.S. by the people of those and other countries would just be self-loathing America-hatred.

Jail me, now, I'm a traitor.

CV

[Sven G]

Militarism is disgusting (and stupid!), IMO - from anywhere it comes, US or not US...

[Spliffdaddy]

This thread is CLASSIC.

Every America-hater chimed-in in an effort to minimize the *SMACKDOWN* they recieved from the article.

Look for yourself.

This thread reads like the who's who of peacenik liberalism.

DIRECT HIT.

I love it!

[petehammer]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
This thread is CLASSIC.

Every America-hater chimed-in in an effort to minimize the *SMACKDOWN* they recieved from the article.

Look for yourself.

This thread reads like the who's who of peacenik liberalism.

DIRECT HIT.

I love it!

Spliffdaddy, how can you be in a circlejerk if you're doing it to yourself?

Are you the circle?

[Spliffdaddy]

No, but now you are.



Thanks for propping-up my point.

I thought we were missing a peacenik.
one, two, three, four...

[christ]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
This thread is CLASSIC.

Every America-hater chimed-in in an effort to minimize the *SMACKDOWN* they recieved from the article.

Look for yourself.

This thread reads like the who's who of peacenik liberalism.

DIRECT HIT.

I love it!

OK then spliff, now you try - why do they hate you?

[Spliffdaddy]

envy

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
This thread is CLASSIC.

Every America-hater chimed-in in an effort to minimize the *SMACKDOWN* they recieved from the article.

Look for yourself.

This thread reads like the who's who of peacenik liberalism.

DIRECT HIT.

You got that right.

[christ]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
envy

So the author of the article was wrong, they do hate you, because they envy you, and the people that ask the question are right to do so, because that way lies enlightenment. It is not self-loathing after all.

Durn, he almost had me believing him.

[petehammer]

Originally posted by christ:
So the author of the article was wrong, they do hate you, because they envy you, and the people that ask the question are right to do so, because that way lies enlightenment. It is not self-loathing after all.

Durn, he almost had me believing him.

Solid!

[icruise]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
This thread is CLASSIC.

Every America-hater chimed-in in an effort to minimize the *SMACKDOWN* they recieved from the article.

Look for yourself.

This thread reads like the who's who of peacenik liberalism.

DIRECT HIT.

I love it!

Republicans eat babies and worship the devil.

[icruise]

Originally posted by Icruise:
Republicans eat babies and worship the devil.

DIRECT HIT!!!

And if they try and contest this claim, it'll just prove how very right it was.

Thanks Spliff! This way of arguing is fun!

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
This thread reads like the who's who of peacenik liberalism.

and by contrast then, are you a bloodthirsty warmongering conservative?
If the worse thing you can say about me is I love peace, I'll be happy to go the father with that on my tombstone...what will be on yours?

[eklipse]

[maxelson]

I see our moral guidance and pointer-outers of ye proper smackdown have yet to actually answer my question.
Telling.
Must've scored a direct hit.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by maxelson:
I see our moral guidance and pointer-outers of ye proper smackdown have yet to actually answer my question.
Telling.
Must've scored a direct hit.

you get used to it. *shrugs*

cheerleaders very seldom score touchdowns of their own.

[Spliffdaddy]

As if there was any doubt before...

the peacenik liberals are STILL wallowing in defeat days later.

never have I seen a thread with so much whining and excuse-making.

"Answer MY question, Spliff (so we won't have to keep sitting here looking like losers. we need a chance to get even. you can't just record a *smackdown* and walk off. we need an opportunity to try and belittle you. to save face.)" waaaaa!

Of course Dubya has made mistakes. Just not the number or level of mistakes that are claimed by the anti-American peaceniks.

Oh, and you want examples, too?

Isn't that what YOU'RE here for? To show Dubya in a bad light every chance you get?

Ahh - the article is sooo telling. It exposes the anti-American mindset with a bright and sharply focused beam of light.

Read it again. Learn about yourselves.

[Lerkfish]

As I said, no touchdown.
It requires no thought to merely gainsay what others say or be in the peanut gallery or a cheerleader. To actually demonstrate cognition on their own is too hard. They dance, they pirouette, they skip around it but they never, actually, make a touchdown themselves.

[Spheric Harlot]

Michael Jackson was born August 29, 1958.

By what stretch of the phrase did he "come of age" in the 60s?

-s*

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
As I said, no touchdown.
It requires no thought to merely gainsay what others say or be in the peanut gallery or a cheerleader. To actually demonstrate cognition on their own is too hard. They dance, they pirouette, they skip around it but they never, actually, make a touchdown themselves.

Your posts remind me of last night's Hannity and Colmes interview with the MoveOn.org president. He was so delusional, even Alan Colmes dismissed his and his group's rhetoric as utter nonsense.

Ironically, notes of this interview are not posted anywhere on the moveon.org website, and they usually post whatever publicity they can get.

I guess being exposed on national TV as having fraudulent intentions and delusional views isn't noteworthy enough for them.

[maxelson]

This isn't arguing a point. This is nothing but garbage. Poking, prodding. Ask a question- a direct question and what do you get. Nothing. Again, telling. Not long ago, I asked a question about Judicial confirmations. It was a straightforward question, but not easy to answer. It got left twisting. Not because it wasn't a legit question, but because there was no answer that the "opposition" (to call it otherwise is plain stupid) had no answer. that could show their cause in a favorable light. I asked these questions about environment, about war, about foreign and domestic policy. All that is returned is weak abuse and poor logic.
Paper tigers. No substance.

Pathetic.

Looks like you were right about amateurism, Spliffy. All the way around, you were right.

You guys have singlehandedly pushed me so far away from conservatism- further than I have ever been- and you did it. Was that your goal? It seems to be. Nothing but abuse and disdain. No rational, reasonable or respectful arguments, just "you're a fvcking moron because you look liberal to me." In letter or spirit- same message.

[DBursey]

You're all laboring under a massive cloud of delusion. America's self loathing stems from its twin losses to Canadian national teams in Olympic hockey at Salt Lake City.

Despite the inherent lack of shame in losing to the world's greatest country and preeminent hockey nation, one can't help but notice the crestfallen nature with which our esteemed southern neighbor has since carried herself.