[Logic]

Sharon plan 'blocked peace talks'

[Splinter]

seriously who the hell cares?! so some people oppose it some people endorse it either way whatever happense the terrorists wont stop. I dont see why this is such a big issue for people. if we pull out of gazaa the terrorists wont stop, if we dont pull out of gaza the terrorist wont stop...

[constrictor]

Originally posted by Logic:
Sharon plan 'blocked peace talks'

Logic, I'd like to ask you to outline what you'd like to see happen in the Israel-Palestine conflict. If it's the Israelis being driven into the sea, then say that. If it's something else, say that. I'm too lazy to look up any of your past posts where you may have outlined what you're looking for.

My second question is whether or not you think the Palestinians will stop attacking Israel if your "goal" is acheived.

Thanks.

[Ratm]

Originally posted by Splinter:
seriously who the hell cares?! so some people oppose it some people endorse it either way whatever happense the terrorists wont stop. I dont see why this is such a big issue for people. if we pull out of gazaa the terrorists wont stop, if we dont pull out of gaza the terrorist wont stop...

they care (will someone please think of the emoticons) ----->

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Splinter:
if we pull out of gazaa the terrorists wont stop, if we dont pull out of gaza the terrorist wont stop...

Exactly and it's because Israel is deliberately avoiding dealing with what the real issues are. It was obvious from the moment this Gaza pullout 'plan' was announced that the intention was to detract from the broader peace initiative. Peres's comments are exactly right:

Can Israel expect to stop diplomatic processes around the world? We should not delude ourselves. Until we have peace we [cannot expect] calm and security,

[Splinter]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Exactly and it's because Israel is deliberately avoiding dealing with what the real issues are. It was obvious from the moment this Gaza pullout 'plan' was announced that the intention was to detract from the broader peace initiative. Peres's comments are exactly right:

the real issue is Israel I jstu had this discussion with somone on another forum he said remove the issue and the terrorists will lose thier support the only problem is in this case the issue is the existence of Israel itself.

[constrictor]

Originally posted by Splinter:
the real issue is Israel I jstu had this discussion with somone on another forum he said remove the issue and the terrorists will lose thier support the only problem is in this case the issue is the existence of Israel itself.

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the terrorists will not stop until Israel is no more, right?

[djohnson]

Originally posted by constrictor:
So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the terrorists will not stop until Israel is no more, right?

That is what it sounds like to me. Why not just remove the terrorists? Same outcome....

[Splinter]

Originally posted by constrictor:
So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the terrorists will not stop until Israel is no more, right?

thats right

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights. "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Today, Palestinian Islamic Jihad is committed to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel through a jihad (holy war).

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Terrorism/PIJ.html

Fatah online constitution: Article (19) Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated.
Article (22) Opposing any political solution offered as an alternative to demolishing the Zionist occupation in Palestine, as well as any project intended to liquidate the Palestinian case or impose any international mandate on its people.

http://www.fateh.net/e_public/consti...les%20of%20the

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Splinter:
the real issue is Israel I jstu had this discussion with somone on another forum he said remove the issue and the terrorists will lose thier support the only problem is in this case the issue is the existence of Israel itself.

That's bullsh1t.

The moment Israel withdraws from all the occupied territories and Palestine becomes an independent state, Palestinians will have no reason to continue to attack Israel. Those extremist groups who advocate complete destruction of Israel would quickly will lose any legitimacy they may currently have by the general Palestinian populace.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
That's bullsh1t.

wow and posting that right below a post that proves what i was writing is the opposite... jees lady you have some gaul ill give you that.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
That's bullsh1t.

The moment Israel withdraws from all the occupied territories and Palestine becomes an independent state, Palestinians will have no reason to continue to attack Israel. Those extremist groups who advocate complete destruction of Israel would quickly will lose any legitimacy they may currently have by the general Palestinian populace.

No, they'll just want more. It's typical of their type.

[constrictor]

Originally posted by Splinter:
thats right


http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm


http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Terrorism/PIJ.html


http://www.fateh.net/e_public/consti...les%20of%20the

I'm sorry, but he's out of his ****ing mind. If he wants to obliterate Israel so badly, stop the terrorist attacks, take the time to amass and train a real army, put on a uniform, and go to work. If Israel kicks the **** out of his boys, then just stop the bullsh*t. Fight them in uniform if he's so full of pride and conviction, and not like the dogs they are...actually HOPING to kill innocent women and children.

As an independant, I've read a lot of these arguments against Israel, and I've read a lot of crazy right-wingers spout off their typical "kill all the ragheads" crap, but I've kept silent. But this crap is way over the top. If this is their "just plan," then they deserve to have a cruise missile fly right up their collective ass. Good luck with that.

[Logic]

Originally posted by constrictor:
Logic, I'd like to ask you to outline what you'd like to see happen in the Israel-Palestine conflict. If it's the Israelis being driven into the sea, then say that. If it's something else, say that. I'm too lazy to look up any of your past posts where you may have outlined what you're looking for.

My second question is whether or not you think the Palestinians will stop attacking Israel if your "goal" is acheived.

Thanks.

edit to answer questions.

I'll give you the short answer to what I want now. I want a full and complete withdrawal from the occupied territories. I want the '49 borders to be respected. I want the Israeli government to tell the settlers that they'll have to decide for themselves if they want to live in Palestine or move back to Israel. I think Palestine should have complete control over their own territory. To begin with I think that the UN should guard the borders and have strict checkpoints to prevent any attacks on Israel and/or Palestine.

That is what I want and I don't think that is such a unreasonable request.

[Logic]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, they'll just want more. It's typical of their type.

Their type?

[An Alias]

The Palestinians pretty much acknowledge the State of Israel. I know, I know, there's those hard-line groups that wish it was washed into the sea. Thing is, the more Israel treats the Palestinians as they do, the further they cement, and grow the view that Israel should be destroyed. If you give the Palestinians a break, pull-out of the Occupied Territories, I'msure we'll see an end to terrorism in Israel.

Their only beef is to get Israel out of their faces. But like I said, if Israel keeps on acting like the fcukin aggressor, they're only creating more desperate people who want to blow themselves up, and rather than wantng just the OT, they want an end to Israel.

It's pretty damn stupid, and utterly mindnumbingly dumb to assume that Palestinians are just ging to stop attacking Israel, while Israel makes their lives a misery. They are on the defensive, they are the ones who are probaly psychologically harmed by the continual bullsh!t they get from those scumbag Israeli soldiers, and politicians.

[An Alias]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, they'll just want more. It's typical of their type.

Their type? You mean Arabs, or Palestinians, or Christian Arabs, or Muslim Arabs, or druze, or... what exactly are you implying?

You sound quite racist if you don't mind me saying.

[Ratm]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, they'll just want more. It's typical of their type.

I thought that was a concept associated more with the Jews.

Your comment (as does mine) tells us more about your mentality than it does these poor people.

SMF

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by An Alias:
Their type? You mean Arabs, or Palestinians, or Christian Arabs, or Muslim Arabs, or druze, or... what exactly are you implying?

You sound quite racist if you don't mind me saying.

Oh, yeah, I'm quite racist... Was that a knee-jerk I just witnessed?

I was talking about terrorists, not a particular race or ethnic group.

Was funny though.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Logic:
Their type?

*sigh* terrorists. Sheesh.

[Logic]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
*sigh* terrorists. Sheesh.

Would you say that Zionists want more than they were originally given?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Logic:
Would you say that Zionists want more than they were originally given?

Wouldn't have happened if the "Zionists" weren't provoked.


(waiting for imminent reply)

[constrictor]

Originally posted by Logic:
edit to answer questions.

I'll give you the short answer to what I want now. I want a full and complete withdrawal from the occupied territories. I want the '49 borders to be respected. I want the Israeli government to tell the settlers that they'll have to decide for themselves if they want to live in Palestine or move back to Israel. I think Palestine should have complete control over their own territory. To begin with I think that the UN should guard the borders and have strict checkpoints to prevent any attacks on Israel and/or Palestine.

That is what I want and I don't think that is such a unreasonable request.

You imply through your mention of UN border forces that you know the Palestinian terrorists will not stop their attacks on Israel even if they do all the things you wish. Do you deny this will be the case?

[Taliesin]

This newsbit just confirms what I was saying all along, that Israel isn't interested in peace, and I have already pasted the reasons in another thread, so I will just copy-paste it here, as it fits better in this thread:

*Copy-Paste-start:
It's not that difficult to understand why Israel doesn't want peace: Because it can't win much through peace, instead loses much. Numerous problems would arise, should Israel really agree to a peace-aggreement (in the version of seperated independent states, not in the version of the unified Israel-Palestine-solution, which would be even more problematic for Israel) with the palestinians:

1. Territory-loss: Israel would have to give up the dream of the recreation of "Eretz Israel". East-Jerusalem would have to be given back to the palestinians, the settlers in Westbank would either have to accept to live in a palestinian state or return to Israel. Regardless what decision the settlers come to, the israeli army would have to withdraw from Westbank nonetheless.

2. Water-loss: Probably not many know that, but one of the most important issues, but not discussed in main-stream-media, is the issue of water. Currently the water in the region in Gaza and espescially in Westbank is being used nearly completely by Israel, while the palestinians aren't allowed to dig new wells. So a peace-aggreement would have to make the sure that the water used by Israel and Palestine is evenly split.
But I've heard of a technology which makes it economically possible to transfer sea-water into drinkable water, so that could help.

3. Financial-loss: the 3 billion dollars a year would be surely reduced considerably once peace is achieved with the palestinians, as the US would decide to help the new palestinian state to build up..

4. Ideological loss: The great unifier of the israeli society was always the propaganda of being in a state of defense-war against the arabs, a sort of fight for survival in an unwelcoming place. The retaliation-operations of Hamas and others have strenghtened that perception, and let all other problems in Israel take a second- or third-place in mind. After peace with all neighbouring countries as well as with the palestinians, that great tool of "we versus rest" would diminish, and all the suppressed problems of israeli society would come to surface, like the animosities between the arabic jews and european/russian/american jews, or the animosities between the jewish and islamic israelis, etc...

Copy-paste-end.*

For Sharon and his government it's an easy calculation: On the one hand, he has the occasional retaliation-operations in form of suicide-bombings, which can be reduced considerably with the wall (another element in this conflict I have formerly claimed to be used by Sharon as an offensive weapon), on the other hand he has the Westbank and East-Jersualem. Obviously he has decided that peace is too expensive, while occasional palestinian violence in Israel is bearable.

So, it seems all to play out in favour of Sharon, he withdraws 7500 settlers from Gaza and transferrs them to the 400,000 settlers in East-Jerusalem and Westbank, while stopping peace-process with the palestinians, building the wall on palestinian land dividing the Westbank into chunks, so that the settlements are connected to Israel and protected by the wall, and controlling Gaza's borders, airspace and coastline. All that with the approval of the US.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

But there is still another strategy of Sharon at work. He tries desperately to force the UN to withdraw its humanitarian organizations from the occupied areas by trying to damage its image of a neutral helper. These UN-humanitarian organizations provide "regular food aid to about 1.5m Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It also runs schools and clinics, and provides shelter for thousands of Palestinians made homeless by Israel's house demolition policy." (Quote from the BBC-article you can reach through the links in this post.)

So, obviously Sharon tries to stop that help for the palestinians in order to make life even more miserable for them.

The latest rediculous propaganda-lie was to claim that UN-hospital-cars transport Kasseem-rockets:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3719432.stm

Another interesting newsbit about Israel, though not as crucial is Israel's violations of other countries souvereignities, in this case Cyprus' airspace:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3719876.stm

Taliesin

[vmarks]

The UNRWA has already allowed terrorists to use its vehicles as personal transport.

http://mideastview.com/videos/pub/_6...-ambulance.wmv

The UNRWA head has already declared that he doesn't mind if Hamas (yes, terrorists) are employed by the UNRWA.

"The Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) Peter Hansen on Monday told the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that he was sure members of the militant Hamas organization were on the payroll in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but that he did not “see that as a crime.”

“Oh I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don’t see that as a crime,” the CBC web site quoted Hansen as saying."

- Haaretz.

Between the UN's mishandling of Israel and UNRWA and the oil-for-food scandal, Sharon doesn't have to do anything to damage the image of the UN as a neutral helper- the UN is doing the damage themselves.

As for the report on Israel responding to steer away a plane-bomb-threat that Germany deemed not serious, I think it is an unfortunate truth that Israel has had experience with airplane threats ( here for example ). So Germany deems a threat to not be serious- Israel gets to determine that for themselves, since the plane has to land in their country. America turned away hundreds of flights September three years ago, each country gets to have a say in how they wish to treat threats. Israel and Cyprus have good relations and diverting to there or Athens would be appear to be normal.

[An Alias]

Originally posted by vmarks:
The UNRWA has already allowed terrorists to use its vehicles as personal transport.

http://mideastview.com/videos/pub/_6...-ambulance.wmv

The UNRWA head has already declared that he doesn't mind if Hamas (yes, terrorists) are employed by the UNRWA.

Oh yeah, I forgot, Hamas is a really organised military power. Christ almighty, Hamas is made up of kids in their teens, under 10's, women, etc. I wouldn' be surprised if every Palestinian said they were in Hamas. So how on earth can the UN avoid letting members of Hamas use their vehicles? What you are trynig to do, is link the UN with Hamas bombings, that Hamas use the UN to carry out such things.

All I've seen so far, is the Israeli FUD army putting out a video that shows a van with UN on it, that the UN said was carrying nothing but tubes, not rockets.

[vmarks]

Clarification in case you missed the point:

The video I link to above is an earlier video showing armed terrorists using a UN van as their personal transport.

Hansen attempted to draw a distinction between 'political' and 'militant' Hamas members. Both the United States and the European Union do not accept this distinction, however, and have outlawed or blacklisted all branches of Hamas and have frozen all Hamas assets.

* Sept. 2003: After the Israeli military court convicted three UNRWA employees for terrorist activities, Israel detained at least 16 other UNRWA staff members for various security-related matters.

* Dec. 2002: An Israeli intelligence report indicated that numerous UNRWA facilities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza had been used by Palestinian terrorists as meeting grounds and for weapons storage.

* Sept. 2002: Nahd Attala, a senior official of UNRWA in Gaza, revealed that in June-July 2002, he used his UNRWA car for the transportation of armed Fatah members on their way to carry out a missile attack against Jewish communities. In addition, Nahd said he used an UNRWA car to transport a 12-kg. explosive charge for his brother-in-law, a Fatah member.

* August 2002: Nidal Nazzal, a Hamas member and ambulance driver employed by UNRWA, confessed to transporting weapons and explosives in an UNRWA ambulance. He said he had taken advantage of the freedom of movement he enjoyed as part of his UNRWA job to transmit messages among Hamas members in various PA-controlled towns.

* February 2002: Ala Muhammad Ali Hassan, a Tanzim member, confessed to having carried out a sniper shooting from the school run by UNRWA in the al-Ayn refugee camp near Nablus. He also told his interrogators that bombs intended for terrorist attacks were being manufactured inside the UNRWA school's facilities.

As reported yesterday, the salaries of UNRWA workers are paid through contributions that UNRWA receives from 38 contributing countries. The U.S. provides 30% of that budget, Canada contributes 4%, and the European countries contribute well over 55%. "This," concludes HonestReporting.Com, "[is] despite the fact that the use of US taxpayer funds for foreign refugees who have engaged in acts of terrorism is illegal under the amended Section 301(c) of the 1961 Foreign Assistance Act."

[Splinter]

Originally posted by An Alias:
Oh yeah, I forgot, Hamas is a really organised military power. Christ almighty, Hamas is made up of kids in their teens, under 10's, women, etc. I wouldn' be surprised if every Palestinian said they were in Hamas. So how on earth can the UN avoid letting members of Hamas use their vehicles? What you are trynig to do, is link the UN with Hamas bombings, that Hamas use the UN to carry out such things.

All I've seen so far, is the Israeli FUD army putting out a video that shows a van with UN on it, that the UN said was carrying nothing but tubes, not rockets.

hmm vmarks we need a good clip of one of the hamas marches... unless 100,000 arab kids under 10 can grow beards and be 6 feet tall you are fataly decivied.

edit: but maybe your right they look like a bunch of kids to me









Thatll do id like to see you face those bunch of kids.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Clarification in case you missed the point:

The video I link to above is an earlier video showing armed terrorists using a UN van as their personal transport.

Hansen attempted to draw a distinction between 'political' and 'militant' Hamas members. Both the United States and the European Union do not accept this distinction, however, and have outlawed or blacklisted all branches of Hamas and have frozen all Hamas assets.

* Sept. 2003: After the Israeli military court convicted three UNRWA employees for terrorist activities, Israel detained at least 16 other UNRWA staff members for various security-related matters.

* Dec. 2002: An Israeli intelligence report indicated that numerous UNRWA facilities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza had been used by Palestinian terrorists as meeting grounds and for weapons storage.

* Sept. 2002: Nahd Attala, a senior official of UNRWA in Gaza, revealed that in June-July 2002, he used his UNRWA car for the transportation of armed Fatah members on their way to carry out a missile attack against Jewish communities. In addition, Nahd said he used an UNRWA car to transport a 12-kg. explosive charge for his brother-in-law, a Fatah member.

* August 2002: Nidal Nazzal, a Hamas member and ambulance driver employed by UNRWA, confessed to transporting weapons and explosives in an UNRWA ambulance. He said he had taken advantage of the freedom of movement he enjoyed as part of his UNRWA job to transmit messages among Hamas members in various PA-controlled towns.

* February 2002: Ala Muhammad Ali Hassan, a Tanzim member, confessed to having carried out a sniper shooting from the school run by UNRWA in the al-Ayn refugee camp near Nablus. He also told his interrogators that bombs intended for terrorist attacks were being manufactured inside the UNRWA school's facilities.

You can't deny that Sharon and other israeli governments always wanted to get humanitarian organizations out of the occupied areas, because they help the palestinians with food, medicine, education, house-building, etc.., which are contraproductive for Israel's zionistic plans of squashing palestinian resistance and the driving out of palestinians from Westbank.

What you have told here is even more proof for that analysis, all these "confessions" were made under torture and you should know that everyone who is tortured says anything that the torturer wants to hear, in order to stop the pain.

Taliesin

[saab95]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
That's bullsh1t.

The moment Israel withdraws from all the occupied territories and Palestine becomes an independent state, Palestinians will have no reason to continue to attack Israel. Those extremist groups who advocate complete destruction of Israel would quickly will lose any legitimacy they may currently have by the general Palestinian populace.

Now that's BS.

The Oslo accords gave Palestine legitimacy, so they ran with it and their terrorists continued terrorist attacks.

Granting Palestine an independent state is NO guarantee that they will stop sponsoring terrorism. Especially if they become a totalitarian "islamic republic."

Were Palestine to become a secular constitutional republic with no religious partnership, then we might have a chance at peace in the region. Please tell me the chances of this happening.

[constrictor]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
That's bullsh1t.

The moment Israel withdraws from all the occupied territories and Palestine becomes an independent state, Palestinians will have no reason to continue to attack Israel. Those extremist groups who advocate complete destruction of Israel would quickly will lose any legitimacy they may currently have by the general Palestinian populace.

After a day or so to think about it, PLEASE tell me you know this is wrong.

[Logic]

Originally posted by constrictor:
After a day or so to think about it, PLEASE tell me you know this is wrong.

She's right.

There will be some nutjobs that will continue to attack Israel but they will lose all support in Palestine in a matter of months at the most. But while the Palestinians see their land being occupied they will support whatever means necessary to become free.

[lil'babykitten]

The longer this conflict goes on, the more extreme the Palestinians will become in their demands. There is only so much sh1t a human being can take. Many young Palestinians are being 'taught' at a young age to 'hate the Jews'. They're knowledge of what the actual conflict is about is limited. It's completely irresponsible on the part of their parents because there is plenty of legitimate reasons to despise the Israeli occupation, them being Jewish should have nothing to do with it. It's in Israel's best interests, her security included, to resolve the situation before the moderates in Palestinian society die out.

Regardless however, it's like I said, if Israel were to completely withdraw from the occupied territories and allow for Palestinian independence, even if some extremist groups were to continue attacking Israel, they would quickly lose any support they once might have had. The occupation and lack of state-hood is at the very roots of this conflict. I guess you can liken this to a 'problem plant' - once the 'problematic roots' of this conflict are removed, the rest of the plant gradually dies. There would be a period of uncertainty to begin with but eventually things would settle down.

[aberdeenwriter]

This is a war against an enemy that has repeatedly declared that first and foremost they want to eliminate Israel entirely- that taking Haifa and Tel-Aviv/Jaffa is more important than having an independent state.

Why, when the Palestinians refuse to accept reasonable deals time and time again, should the deals get sweeter each time?

It has been in the interest of corrupt PA non-leaders, headed by Arafat, to continue this intractablity. His followers have elevated his greed and stubbornness to the level of an official government policy! The people look at that type of abberrent behavior and want to emulate it!

(Watch someone come along to say it is the fault of the Israelis! HA!)

Every time Israel offered peace and a two state solution,
Palestinians said, 'No, forget about Liberty. Instead, give me death!' Death for themselves and for as many women and children of Israel that they can kill.

[Splinter]

lets say LBK and Logic are right and the terrorists lose the popular support of the people... that still wouldnt stop them because thier funding and REAL support they need to continue this conflit comes from 1. Other countires... Iran Syria some rich guys in Saudi Arabia and crazy nut jobs in Europe...
2. People who have no interest in the well being of the Palestinian people only their own selfish gains in seeing the destruction of Israel.

[Isaac]

Originally posted by Splinter:
lets say LBK and Logic are right and the terrorists lose the popular support of the people... that still wouldnt stop them because thier funding and REAL support they need to continue this conflit comes from 1. Other countires... Iran Syria some rich guys in Saudi Arabia and crazy nut jobs in Europe...
2. People who have no interest in the well being of the Palestinian people only their own selfish gains in seeing the destruction of Israel.

then your fight obviosly isn't with Palistein is it... the PA, Hezoballa, or Isreale, all the same totalitarian f*ckers... Hamas might be more acceptablbe, but I doubt it.... I think the people of Isreale and Palistein need to unite and tell both Sharon and Arafat to go f*ck themselfs.... not a probable solution, but that would be the best solution to this whole conflict in my oppion... otherwise, I think the Palistinians need to hone there fighting skills for defensive operations and maybe counter-offensive operations targeted at police/military, not just random civilians... also, the Isreale treatment of the media, pointing 120 mm smoothbores right in the face of camera men at point blank and firing machine gun rounds from the top of a APC at the feet of reporters, expresses an intrest in perventing the disemination of information... and considering the things we do know about the Isreale occupation, such as firing AP tank rounds into playgrounds or bulldozing entire refugee camps, such things should not be tolerated at all...