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subego · Oct 29, 2012, 09:51 PM

http://m.cnet.com/news/apples-scott-forstall-ousted-over-maps-apology----wsj/57542297

Apple should have waited for the next Zynga layoff as cover.

sdilley14 · Oct 30, 2012, 06:56 AM

I can't say that I am terribly disappointed to see that iOS is going to be given a new head of design. And the fact that it is going to be headed up by Jony Ive is an exciting prospect. It seems with the last couple iterations of iOS things have started to feel somewhat fragmented and not very "streamlined". Maps has been a disaster, Siri is promising but still pretty crude, and the biggest turnoff to me has been the use of software skeuomorphism in various apps.

I would love to see the whole skeumorphism thing scrapped and have apps given a makeover with a more streamlined, industrial, modern look and feel. When I open apps like Game Center and Podcasts and have to see the tackiness of the skeumorphism they've implemented, it makes these apps feel amature. It's a joke. And they've done this skeumorphism thing on some apps but not others, making the whole experience feel even more fragmented. I can't believe this approach has actually made it this far and this deep in iOS. I can understand using some subtle elements here and there in different apps, but they've gone way too far in the areas they have implemented it. :S I am thrilled at the prospect of Jony taking over the iOS design team and scrapping this skeumorphic crap and giving iOS the facelift it needs.

/rant

ort888 · Oct 30, 2012, 07:31 AM

I too would like to see more interesting developments in iOS.

iOS 6 was pretty much blah, with very few new features worth talking about.

I'd like to see them loosen up a lot and let us have a little more control over things.

Phileas · Oct 30, 2012, 04:58 PM

This had been a long time coming. Ives hated Forstall for a long time, Jobs looked at him as a necessary evil. People disliked working for and with him intensely and when the maps disaster happend the inner circle finally had a reason to get rid of him.

With Ives at the helm, I think that's the end of skeumorphism.

turtle777 · Oct 30, 2012, 05:50 PM

Well, it should be interesting how this plays out.

iOS would not be what it is today w/o Forstall. Like him or not, he made a darn good mobile OS.

I think Apple is going to face some stiff competition from whoever gobbles up Forstall.

-t

besson3c · Oct 30, 2012, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Phileas

This had been a long time coming. Ives hated Forstall for a long time, Jobs looked at him as a necessary evil. People disliked working for and with him intensely and when the maps disaster happend the inner circle finally had a reason to get rid of him.
With Ives at the helm, I think that's the end of skeumorphism.

How in God's name do you know this to be true?

Spheric Harlot · Oct 31, 2012, 12:42 AM

From numerous sources over the past year that have all been unanimous on the subject.

What is your problem with this assessment, other than that you obviously haven't been following the Cupertino gossip?

besson3c · Oct 31, 2012, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

From numerous sources over the past year that have all been unanimous on the subject.
What is your problem with this assessment, other than that you obviously haven't been following the Cupertino gossip?

Because so much of this stuff is ridiculous and unbelievable the same way that tabloid publications are. Reducing complex individuals to simplistic caricatures should make all of us suspect, particularly since the media loves simplistic narratives that titilate.

Spheric Harlot · Oct 31, 2012, 02:10 AM

What, exactly, do you find "ridiculous"?

The only bit I've read so far that is ridiculous is that Forstall was fired over refusing to sign the Maps apology. (That may have been the final straw, though.)

It has been known for some time that he is a political animal intent on getting ahead, rather than along, and that especially other departments within Apple view him as divisive rather than cooperative. This worked fine when power was supremely concentrated in the One Steve, and because Forstall was apparently pretty damn good at the rest of his job.

We can all be thankful that he and Serlet (IIRC) won over the rest of the company for the decision of which OS to go with for the iPhone, and he's certainly done much for the company.

But even the wording of Apple's press release is telltale:
"Apple Announces Changes to Increase Collaboration Across Hardware, Software & Services"

besson3c · Oct 31, 2012, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

What, exactly, do you find "ridiculous"?
The only bit I've read so far that is ridiculous is that Forstall was fired over refusing to sign the Maps apology. (That may have been the final straw, though.)
It has been known for some time that he is a political animal intent on getting ahead, rather than along, and that especially other departments within Apple view him as divisive rather than cooperative. This worked fine when power was supremely concentrated in the One Steve, and because Forstall was apparently pretty damn good at the rest of his job.
We can all be thankful that he and Serlet (IIRC) won over the rest of the company for the decision of which OS to go with for the iPhone, and he's certainly done much for the company.
But even the wording of Apple's press release is telltale:
"Apple Announces Changes to Increase Collaboration Across Hardware, Software & Services"

It is ridiculous that it is "known for some time that he is a political animal". No, we don't know that. How can we? We can read gossip, possibly skewed by bias or who knows what other variables, but we cannot know this. We don't know that he was divisive for the same reason.

The inner workings of Apple employees or that of any other individual cannot be accurately assigned to some narrative the way we assign one to Kim Kardashian.

Spheric Harlot · Oct 31, 2012, 04:38 AM

FWIW, coverage of Forstall's political role within the company basically began with this comprehensive article back one year ago:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorcerers-apprentice-at-apple-10122011.html

And everything that has leaked, been reported, and happened since then has corroborated the article, including the very wording of the press release announcing that he's been fired.

By your reasoning, we also know absolutely nothing about Steve Jobs' personality, company politics, and leadership style, either.

Because everything we've heard about Jobs in that regard is based upon anecdotes, hearsay, internal sources, gossip, and rumors, and of course, what he chose to tell his biographer, which is obviously skewed by his own perspective.

Would you say that is true? Why weren't you all over the Steve Jobs threads making sure we were all aware of that?

What is your intent here?

I don't get your point.

besson3c · Oct 31, 2012, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

FWIW, coverage of Forstall's political role within the company basically began with this comprehensive article back one year ago:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorcerers-apprentice-at-apple-10122011.html
And everything that has leaked, been reported, and happened since then has corroborated the article, including the very wording of the press release announcing that he's been fired.
By your reasoning, we also know absolutely nothing about Steve Jobs' personality, company politics, and leadership style, either.
Because everything we've heard about Jobs in that regard is based upon anecdotes, hearsay, internal sources, gossip, and rumors, and of course, what he chose to tell his biographer, which is obviously skewed by his own perspective.
Would you say that is true? Why weren't you all over the Steve Jobs threads making sure we were all aware of that?
What is your intent here?
I don't get your point.

Biographical information about him and detailing journalistic perceptions of his personality and demeanor is different than saying that "people hated to work for him", as if we really have access to this sort of Inside Baseball Apple water cooler talk. I had the same problem when Freudling used to speculate about what Steve Jobs would think, say, and do as if by reading some biographies we can predict his every thought and make robot clones out of him.

Spheric Harlot · Oct 31, 2012, 08:06 AM

Well, that's not what we're doing, is it?

At least, not beyond what seemed reasonable in relation to Steve Jobs, as well.

Or do you just discount outright the reports of Steve's tantrums, the accounts of closed-door meetings, the elevator firings, and the entire contents of folklore.org?

I think it's entirely reasonable to construct an image of somebody's business demeanor based upon what other say about him and of him, and second-hand accounts of his actions. In fact, we do this all the time with people, and in fact, I HAVE to, because I need to have a general idea of whom I'm doing business with.

What is NOT reasonable is to psychoanalyze this image, or to extrapolate that into actions somebody WOULD have taken as if this were fact, especially if any argumentation about these ideas inevitably becomes intensely personal.

mattyb · Oct 31, 2012, 09:31 AM

Some pretty good info about this on Ars as well. And yes, I trust Ars Technica.

ort888 · Oct 31, 2012, 09:46 AM

I think there has been enough "smoke" around the idea that he can be hard to work with that it's probably true.

I mean, none of us know, but whatever, it's fun to speculate about.

lpkmckenna · Oct 31, 2012, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Phileas

Jobs looked at him as a necessary evil.

This is have never heard. On the contrary, I am lead to understand Forstall got away with being a jerk because Jobs protected and enabled him.

Everyone is blaming Forstall for skeuomorphism. Uh, how then did iOS skeuomorphism leak into Mountain Lion, where Forstall had no control? It seems to be a trend in Apple software design as a whole, from brushed metal in the past to denim backgrounds today.

But now that Ive is overseeing all hardware and interface design, we could see some interesting, unexpected changes.

Spheric Harlot · Oct 31, 2012, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Everyone is blaming Forstall for skeuomorphism. Uh, how then did iOS skeuomorphism leak into Mountain Lion, where Forstall had no control? It seems to be a trend in Apple software design as a whole, from brushed metal in the past to denim backgrounds today.

It's been pretty widely disseminated that it was JOBS who was one of the driving forces behind the stitched leather.

Phileas · Oct 31, 2012, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Biographical information about him and detailing journalistic perceptions of his personality and demeanor is different than saying that "people hated to work for him", as if we really have access to this sort of Inside Baseball Apple water cooler talk.

The Forstall saga has been widely reported on for years now, by reliable sources, from within Apple. Just because you haven't been keeping up with the news doesn't mean they didn't happen.

besson3c · Oct 31, 2012, 06:30 PM

Spheric and Phileas, I'll back off on my argument because I think I have made the point I wanted to make. I don't necessarily stand by it anymore in this specific case, but it is true that people cling to simple narratives and gossip thinking that they are a substitute for actual insider knowledge.

The same kind of thing happens with fans of sports teams, so I guess this is just human nature.

subego · Oct 31, 2012, 06:57 PM

Heh... "Apple's chief asshole".

Doc HM · Nov 1, 2012, 08:35 AM

So iTunes 11 has been put back. Ives' first action with rewgard to UI?

turtle777 · Nov 1, 2012, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Spheric and Phileas, I'll back off on my argument because I think I have made the point I wanted to make. I don't necessarily stand by it anymore in this specific case, but it is true that people cling to simple narratives and gossip thinking that they are a substitute for actual insider knowledge.

The same kind of thing happens with fans of sports teams, so I guess this is just human nature.

Geez, you really like to see yourself typing, don't you.

You always have to question any- and everything.

-t

ajprice · Nov 7, 2012, 12:15 AM

Interesting article today on TNW, saying that with Cue, Federighi, Mansfield, Ive and Schiller, Cook has his team set.

The next Apple

Phileas · Nov 7, 2012, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by ajprice

Interesting article today on TNW, saying that with Cue, Federighi, Mansfield, Ive and Schiller, Cook has his team set.
The next Apple

Yep. A solid team, I think. Now it's up to Ives to keep pushing forward.