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Aldie G · Jun 1, 2002, 06:55 AM

Since yesterday, there are nightly builds of Chimera/Navigator available at:
<a href="ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/chimera/nightly/latest-trunk/" target="_blank">ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/chimera/nightly/latest-trunk/</a>

Keep in mind that these are a bit more rough then the milestones, but at least you can get a peek at the new features of version 0.3. As far as I can see, they implented some more prefs.

cya

Mac Zealot · Jun 1, 2002, 07:41 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Aldie G:
Since yesterday, there are nightly builds of Chimera/Navigator available at:
<a href="ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/chimera/nightly/latest-trunk/" target="_blank">ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/chimera/nightly/latest-trunk/</a>

Keep in mind that these are a bit more rough then the milestones, but at least you can get a peek at the new features of version 0.3. As far as I can see, they implented some more prefs.

cya<hr /></blockquote>Chimera is quickly becoming my favorite browser.

ambush · Jun 1, 2002, 09:08 AM

How about they include the version in the filename ( on the ftp )

Like 0.2.8 build#85347985 or something so we can identify them..

starfleetX · Jun 1, 2002, 02:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ambush:
How about they include the version in the filename ( on the ftp )<hr /></blockquote>Why? The build number for Mozilla projects is simply the date and hour of the build and, well, the date is right by the file name.

macmike42 · Jun 1, 2002, 03:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by starfleetX:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ambush:
How about they include the version in the filename ( on the ftp )<hr /></blockquote>Why? The build number for Mozilla projects is simply the date and hour of the build and, well, the date is right by the file name.<hr /></blockquote>Whoa. Normally I would agree with this, but my current nightly build (from two days ago *sigh*) says "1904010103". Is the OS X nightly build server having clock battery troubles.

Also, DAMN YOU CHIMERA DEVELOPERS, DAMN YOU! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I was just about done cleaning up my nightly update script for public consumption, now I must add another browser. I hope they keep the file name the same, it was hard enough creating a reliable way to keep track of the URL for the OmniWeb sneakypeeks.

It would be interesting to see if Microsoft followed suit with this "new web browser nightly" scheme.

intastella · Jun 1, 2002, 08:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It would be interesting to see if Microsoft followed suit with this "new web browser nightly" scheme.
<hr /></blockquote>How about an "ExplorerDevelopmentIsNotDead-Build"?

Don

Gul Banana · Jun 1, 2002, 09:08 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by intastella:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> It would be interesting to see if Microsoft followed suit with this "new web browser nightly" scheme.
<hr /></blockquote>How about an "ExplorerDevelopmentIsNotDead-Build"?

Don<hr /></blockquote>Problem is that it is, the mac version, anyway.

Parvulesco · Jun 1, 2002, 10:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gul Banana:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by intastella:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> It would be interesting to see if Microsoft followed suit with this "new web browser nightly" scheme.
<hr /></blockquote>How about an "ExplorerDevelopmentIsNotDead-Build"?

Don<hr /></blockquote>Problem is that it is, the mac version, anyway.<hr /></blockquote>Sorry, that simply is not true.

restbeckett · Jun 1, 2002, 10:56 PM

If only Chimera would not crash as often, it would be a great browser even if it is in its infancy.

It is even now my fav browser. It's Omniweb with tabbed browsing which I have come to love.

Mr. Blur · Jun 2, 2002, 12:40 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by restbeckett:
If only Chimera would not crash as often, it would be a great browser even if it is in its infancy.

It is even now my fav browser. It's Omniweb with tabbed browsing which I have come to love.<hr /></blockquote>yup....it's been said many times already....but this browser is showing enormous potential. while it's not really ready for primetime yet, I keep watching for new builds and trying them all out. My 2 browsers of choice are Mozilla and Omni - Chimera looks to give me the best of both.

KidRed · Jun 2, 2002, 01:04 AM

Chimera has a looong way to go before it's usable on a daily basis for the majority of users.

As for Mozilla, the latest release doesn't give me a text field at a lot of sites, and that's annoying. It doesn't load background cell colors on my excite homepage. As far along as it is, Mozilla still has a way to go. I love OW, but it has a ways to go as well, java script, css, dhtml, etc.

So, ho hum, it's IE till everyone else catches up. Too bad IE is crap and crashes 3 times a day on X!?!?

undotwa · Jun 2, 2002, 02:28 AM

I checked out the latest nightly build, way too unstable for me. I'm going back to 0.2.7.

Guy Incognito · Jun 2, 2002, 02:32 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Sorry, that simply is not true.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>How do you know? Do you work for Microsoft? Are you working on a super-secret new build of IE? Until you can prove this to us...your whole existence is simply 'not true'.

[ 06-02-2002, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]

Gul Banana · Jun 2, 2002, 06:10 AM

While I wouldn't put it quite like that, I agree. IE 5.1 for X was released at the same time as 10.0 itself, and there have been no updates since other than to fix security holes. Contrast this with the frantic browser development going on with the other major parties (the Omni group, chimera.mozdev.org, etc).

[APi]TheMan · Jun 2, 2002, 06:16 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Sorry, that simply is not true.<hr /></blockquote>How do you know? Do you work for Microsoft? Are you working on a super-secret new build of IE? Until you can prove this to us...your whole existence is simply 'not true'.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>I agree. Parvulesco: Are you defending IE on MacOSX? OmniWeb is slow and it hogs CPU on my Pismo 400 mhz, but I don't even question it and I still use it day to day.

It's Cocoa. It's cool. IE is lame.

[ 06-02-2002, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: [APi]TheMan ]

undotwa · Jun 2, 2002, 11:22 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by [APi]TheMan:
I agree. Parvulesco: Are you defending IE on MacOSX? OmniWeb is slow and it hogs CPU on my Pismo 400 mhz, but I don't even question it and I still use it day to day.

It's Cocoa. It's cool. IE is lame.

[ 06-02-2002, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: [APi]TheMan ]<hr /></blockquote>While I may not like IE, what do you know on Microsoft's development schedule for IE? Chimera and OmniWeb have been releasing betas almost everyday to get the public to help beta test their products. Microsoft may actually be developing IE with about as twice as many engineers OmniWeb has. How long has it taken OmniWeb to release 4.1? They haven't even officially released it yet. We've been on 4 since the OS X Public Beta. IE has been stuck on 5.1 since the Public Beta. How do you know Microsoft isn't releasing new builds internally? There might very well be IE 5.5 coming this July at MacWorld (not that I know anything), but until Microsoft has officially stopped development of IE for Mac, don't diss it like a dead product, because it's closed source, you don't know how active the project is.

Gul Banana · Jun 2, 2002, 11:38 AM

Actually, according to Microsoft's evidence in the DoJ trial, they have 1000+ engineers working on Explorer, so I guess you can't call it dead. You can, however, wonder how on EARTH it manages to suck so much... I guess that once you get beyond a certain point, more people is harmful rather than helpful.

Fotek2001 · Jun 2, 2002, 11:54 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Banana:

Actually, according to Microsoft's evidence in the DoJ trial, they have 1000+ engineers working on Explorer, so I guess you can't call it dead. You can, however, wonder how on EARTH it manages to suck so much... I guess that once you get beyond a certain point, more people is harmful rather than helpful.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, that's the Windows version not the Mac version. Having said that, it does seem like overkill especially when the browser's not even that complex.

Mr. Blur · Jun 2, 2002, 12:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Fotek2001:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Banana:

Actually, according to Microsoft's evidence in the DoJ trial, they have 1000+ engineers working on Explorer, so I guess you can't call it dead. You can, however, wonder how on EARTH it manages to suck so much... I guess that once you get beyond a certain point, more people is harmful rather than helpful.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, that's the Windows version not the Mac version. Having said that, it does seem like overkill especially when the browser's not even that complex.<hr /></blockquote>...but they need all those extra hands in there to make sure it's "part of the operating system" and to make sure people can't remove it. that's a lot of work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

KaptainKaya · Jun 2, 2002, 01:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Sorry, that simply is not true.<hr /></blockquote>How do you know? Do you work for Microsoft? Are you working on a super-secret new build of IE? Until you can prove this to us...your whole existence is simply 'not true'.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Here's <a href="http://www.railheaddesign.com/" target="_blank">proof</a>. It may not be a cocoa build, but its an update at the least.

[ 06-02-2002, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: KaptainKaya ]

Mr. Blur · Jun 2, 2002, 02:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Sorry, that simply is not true.<hr /></blockquote>How do you know? Do you work for Microsoft? Are you working on a super-secret new build of IE? Until you can prove this to us...your whole existence is simply 'not true'.<hr /></blockquote>Here's <a href="http://www.railheaddesign.com/" target="_blank">proof</a>. It may not be a cocoa build, but its an update at the least.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>While I don't really doubt that an update to IE will come sooner or later, I think pointing to an article on a "rumour" site as "proof" is hardly credible.

Guy Incognito · Jun 2, 2002, 02:08 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mr. Blur:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Sorry, that simply is not true.<hr /></blockquote>How do you know? Do you work for Microsoft? Are you working on a super-secret new build of IE? Until you can prove this to us...your whole existence is simply 'not true'.<hr /></blockquote>Here's <a href="http://www.railheaddesign.com/" target="_blank">proof</a>. It may not be a cocoa build, but its an update at the least.<hr /></blockquote>While I don't really doubt that an update to IE will come sooner or later, I think pointing to an article on a "rumour" site as "proof" is hardly credible.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>You pretty much summed up what I was about to reply. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Jun 2, 2002, 02:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mr. Blur:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Sorry, that simply is not true.<hr /></blockquote>How do you know? Do you work for Microsoft? Are you working on a super-secret new build of IE? Until you can prove this to us...your whole existence is simply 'not true'.<hr /></blockquote>Here's <a href="http://www.railheaddesign.com/" target="_blank">proof</a>. It may not be a cocoa build, but its an update at the least.<hr /></blockquote>While I don't really doubt that an update to IE will come sooner or later, I think pointing to an article on a "rumour" site as "proof" is hardly credible.<hr /></blockquote>You pretty much summed up what I was about to reply. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>I really wonder how many times posts can be quoted :-)

billybob · Jun 2, 2002, 03:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SteveJobs:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mr. Blur:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Sorry, that simply is not true.<hr /></blockquote>How do you know? Do you work for Microsoft? Are you working on a super-secret new build of IE? Until you can prove this to us...your whole existence is simply 'not true'.<hr /></blockquote>Here's <a href="http://www.railheaddesign.com/" target="_blank">proof</a>. It may not be a cocoa build, but its an update at the least.<hr /></blockquote>While I don't really doubt that an update to IE will come sooner or later, I think pointing to an article on a "rumour" site as "proof" is hardly credible.<hr /></blockquote>You pretty much summed up what I was about to reply. Thanks.

<hr /></blockquote>I really wonder how many times posts can be quoted :-)[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>I dont know but this is getting ridiculous

[ 06-02-2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: billybob ]

AKcrab · Jun 2, 2002, 04:06 PM

Stope the nested quote madness. The feature has been <a href="http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=45;t=005851" target="_blank">thoroughly tested</a>.

dark3lf · Jun 2, 2002, 05:26 PM

Chimera looks better with each build, but it still crashes each time the MRJ plugin is called. Why is Chimera able to use plugins but Mozilla mach-o is not?

zerologic · Jun 2, 2002, 08:01 PM

someone please tell me why any browser is better than IE on OS X?

Guy Incognito · Jun 2, 2002, 08:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zerologic:
someone please tell me why any browser is better than IE on OS X?<hr /></blockquote>Quite a few reasons...

Chimera and OmniWeb have Quartz anti-aliasing.

OmniWeb has Service support. Trust me...this is a big plus!

Chimera is much faster than IE at rendering pages on any hardware.

Chimera and OmniWeb both have a feature to disable pop-up ads.

Both OmniWeb and Chimera have a GUI that doesn't look like ass.

OmniWeb has a neat way to tell you that your bookmarked webpages have been updated.

OmniWeb and Chimera both happen to not send you into 'spinning-beachball/wheel of death' madness as often as IE.

OmniWeb is well threaded and works beautifully on dual-processor Macs.

Lots more reasons...not enough time.

King Bob On The Cob · Jun 2, 2002, 10:44 PM

Actually Microsoft did make an announcement that it was going to update IE and Word to use Anti-Aliasing... But they said it would be out in late May and they already missed that date... (They were also supposed to fix "1000" bugs in Office)

zerologic · Jun 2, 2002, 11:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zerologic:
someone please tell me why any browser is better than IE on OS X?<hr /></blockquote>Quite a few reasons...<hr /></blockquote>But Chimera crashes all the time and OmniWeb's pages don't render right (CSS supprt?). IE doesn't go in to SBOD mode for me... well often enough to complain about anyway.

Besides neither of them work with the one of two native streaming solutions on Mac OS X... Windows Media Player.

I respect the fact that you didn't say "Because it is a MS product." by the way. I hate it when people judge products by the maker rather than the product.

0

starfleetX · Jun 3, 2002, 12:19 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zerologic:
Besides neither of them work with the one of two native streaming solutions on Mac OS X... Windows Media Player.<hr /></blockquote>Do you want to know why?

Because you *can't* load the Windows Media Plugin in other browsers. It just doesn't work! There's been plenty of discussion around Mozilla and OmniWeb circles about this and the general consensus is that Microsoft must have some cruft code in it that makes it only in *gasp* Microsoft Internet Explorer.

Profit · Jun 3, 2002, 05:25 AM

The last few releases have unexpectedly quit immediately after the splash screen.

Any suggestions?

Northform · Jun 3, 2002, 06:07 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Profit:
The last few releases have unexpectedly quit immediately after the splash screen.

Any suggestions?<hr /></blockquote>Delete the preferences (a hidden folder called .mozilla in your user directory). You could also create a new user.

undotwa · Jun 3, 2002, 06:59 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by King Bob On The Cob:
Actually Microsoft did make an announcement that it was going to update IE and Word to use Anti-Aliasing... But they said it would be out in late May and they already missed that date... (They were also supposed to fix "1000" bugs in Office)<hr /></blockquote>link please. i don't recall. all the information i've received is from either think secret or rail head design, not exactly microsoft.

Parvulesco · Jun 3, 2002, 01:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by [APi]TheMan:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Sorry, that simply is not true.<hr /></blockquote>How do you know? Do you work for Microsoft? Are you working on a super-secret new build of IE? Until you can prove this to us...your whole existence is simply 'not true'.<hr /></blockquote>I agree. Parvulesco: Are you defending IE on MacOSX? OmniWeb is slow and it hogs CPU on my Pismo 400 mhz, but I don't even question it and I still use it day to day.

It's Cocoa. It's cool. IE is lame.

[ 06-02-2002, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: [APi]TheMan ][/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Jeez�all I said is that work on IE for Mac OS X is continuing (which is a fact, whether you choose to believe me or not). Am I "defending" IE? No. OmniWeb has been my primary OS X browser since March 24, 2001.

Profit · Jun 3, 2002, 09:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Northform:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Profit:
The last few releases have unexpectedly quit immediately after the splash screen.

Any suggestions?<hr /></blockquote>Delete the preferences (a hidden folder called .mozilla in your user directory). You could also create a new user.<hr /></blockquote>Tried that... I figured it might be something to do with the 2 other versions of Mozilla I have and use on occasion.

The standard nightly and the quartz rendering 'ATSUI' one. There is the .mozilla folder as well as a folder in ~/library/ I've deleted them both but chimera still quits on launch

Anyone from the Chimera team post here?

starfleetX · Jun 3, 2002, 09:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Jeez�all I said is that work on IE for Mac OS X is continuing (which is a fact, whether you choose to believe me or not).<hr /></blockquote>Unless you work in the MacBU, you have no reason to state that as a fact. It is your OPINION until you cite some proof.

Hell, I could go around shouting "The moon is inhabited by martians! It's a fact, whether you choose to believe me or not!" using your reasoning.

Your logic is seriously flawed if actually think that you stated a fact.

...but back to the real topic at hand...

errrmm... Chimera rocks!

Guy Incognito · Jun 3, 2002, 11:12 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Jeez�all I said is that work on IE for Mac OS X is continuing (which is a fact, whether you choose to believe me or not). Am I "defending" IE? No. OmniWeb has been my primary OS X browser since March 24, 2001.<hr /></blockquote>Well the recent turn of events (MSN 3.0, Office v.X 10.1.0) indicates that the MacBU team isn't sitting on it's arse. So I'm a little more confident now that an update to IE is in the works.

MSN 3.0 proved to make use of many of the new carbon events and other cool OS X features such as dock menues. I'm pleased.

gorickey · Jun 3, 2002, 11:16 PM

I have a feeling that next IE is going to be spectacular; however, can somebody list the big "features" that the Windows IE has over the Mac one that could be implemented into the next version?

Just wondering.

Kristoff · Jun 4, 2002, 12:03 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by billybob:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SteveJobs:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mr. Blur:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Sorry, that simply is not true.<hr /></blockquote>How do you know? Do you work for Microsoft? Are you working on a super-secret new build of IE? Until you can prove this to us...your whole existence is simply 'not true'.<hr /></blockquote>Here's <a href="http://www.railheaddesign.com/" target="_blank">proof</a>. It may not be a cocoa build, but its an update at the least.<hr /></blockquote>While I don't really doubt that an update to IE will come sooner or later, I think pointing to an article on a "rumour" site as "proof" is hardly credible.<hr /></blockquote>You pretty much summed up what I was about to reply. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>I really wonder how many times posts can be quoted :-)<hr /></blockquote>I dont know but this is getting ridiculous

[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>You think that's ridiculous???

Kristoff · Jun 4, 2002, 12:05 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gorickey:
I have a feeling that next IE is going to be spectacular; however, can somebody list the big "features" that the Windows IE has over the Mac one that could be implemented into the next version?

Just wondering.<hr /></blockquote>Oh boy, are you in for a let down...

The only thing I want from a web browser is some GOD !@#$@#$ W3C STANDARDS COMPLIANCE!!!!

Is that too hard to ask?
I have been using Mozilla since October--so far, it's the most compliant.

undotwa · Jun 4, 2002, 01:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kristoff:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gorickey:
I have a feeling that next IE is going to be spectacular; however, can somebody list the big "features" that the Windows IE has over the Mac one that could be implemented into the next version?

Just wondering.<hr /></blockquote>Oh boy, are you in for a let down...

The only thing I want from a web browser is some GOD !@#$@#$ W3C STANDARDS COMPLIANCE!!!!

Is that too hard to ask?
I have been using Mozilla since October--so far, it's the most compliant.<hr /></blockquote>Asking for a W3C compliant browser is like asking for Steve Jobs to give you control over Apple

Jun 4, 2002, 08:30 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kristoff:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by billybob:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SteveJobs:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mr. Blur:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
Sorry, that simply is not true.<hr /></blockquote>How do you know? Do you work for Microsoft? Are you working on a super-secret new build of IE? Until you can prove this to us...your whole existence is simply 'not true'.<hr /></blockquote>Here's <a href="http://www.railheaddesign.com/" target="_blank">proof</a>. It may not be a cocoa build, but its an update at the least.<hr /></blockquote>While I don't really doubt that an update to IE will come sooner or later, I think pointing to an article on a "rumour" site as "proof" is hardly credible.<hr /></blockquote>You pretty much summed up what I was about to reply. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>I really wonder how many times posts can be quoted :-)<hr /></blockquote>I dont know but this is getting ridiculous

<hr /></blockquote>You think that's ridiculous???

[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>let's see..

anyway, I got the build from 6/3/2002 and I did not notice any changes. Has anybody found some?

Steve