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Tigerabbit · Jun 23, 2002, 12:21 PM

Make your predictions for the winners of the following matches.

Apple Pro Underwear · Jun 23, 2002, 12:37 PM

now that the usa is gone...lets go underdogs!

Vanquish · Jun 23, 2002, 01:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> now that the usa is gone...lets go underdogs!
<hr /></blockquote>The USA WAS an underdog !, I'm all Germany now ! (and btw: I don't think Brazil is an underdog, neither is Germany (it was))

[ 06-23-2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Vanquish ]

Adam Betts · Jun 23, 2002, 03:35 PM

USA really should have win but one of the germany player touched the ball at goalie line on purpose. Damn ref for not seeing it

The Placid Casual · Jun 23, 2002, 04:00 PM

I'm going for a Korea v Brazil final...with Korea to win

I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theories out there, but, I saw that Korea had had 5 'valid' goals against them disallowed...with that kind of "luck" how could they fail <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

Peace,

Marc

theolein · Jun 23, 2002, 06:52 PM

With the kind of "luck" that Korea has had until now, they could probably win by just sitting at the side lines and getting the refs to blow penalties for them every time the opposing team took a shot at the goal.

This is extreme and not very fair, but I am truly fearful that the same kind of crappy refereeing will happen as has until now. Brazil, Germany and Turkey deserve to be where they are. Korea does not. (For those in the USA complaining about the hand ball in the USA Germany match, they should perhaps remember the hand ball by O'Brian in the USA Mexico match)

Edit: I can only hope that some members of the DFB had a quiet little word with Blatter on the side. I would in fact not be surprised if this has happened. There was an interview with Oli Kahn yesterday, and he noted *tongue in cheek* (my addition), that "If we have a goal dissallowed we'll just have to shoot another one, and if that is dissallowed, then we'll have to shoot yet another one". The fact that he brings this up in an interview *before* the match makes me think that he is making a subtle warning to the refs to watch it this time around. The head of Spain's Football federation resigned today in protest against the refereeing in the Spain Korea match. I know that it would not take much to get the similar things to happen in England and Italy and Germany, and FIFA would probably not survive that.

[ 06-23-2002, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: theolein ]

Moonray · Jun 23, 2002, 07:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Adam Betts:
USA really should have win but one of the germany player touched the ball at goalie line on purpose. Damn ref for not seeing it

<hr /></blockquote>Oh yes, and the weather was too hot, the grass too green and the ball way too round <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

-

P · Jun 23, 2002, 07:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Adam Betts:
USA really should have win but one of the germany player touched the ball at goalie line on purpose. Damn ref for not seeing it

<hr /></blockquote>The rules are very clear: If the hand seeks the ball, it's a foul. If the ball seeks the hand, it's nothing. I understand that it's a tough call, but it was a correct one: The German player held his arm straight down next to his torso and the ball happened to hit it without him reacting. If he had seen the ball and had time to react, he might as well have moved his torso to block the ball and avoided a potential foul.

Tigerabbit · Jun 23, 2002, 10:09 PM

I think Brazil in regulation is a no-brainer. Turkey should be proud of how far they got, though, and do have a legitmate shot at third place.

Germany will need to out-muscle the Koreans. They need to tire the Koreans' upper bodies so that there's no energy left for the legs. If Germany can do this, they'll win. If they try to play a running game against the Koreans, they'll lose. I have Germany in extra time.

Adam Betts · Jun 23, 2002, 10:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
(For those in the USA complaining about the hand ball in the USA Germany match, they should perhaps remember the hand ball by O'Brian in the USA Mexico match)<hr /></blockquote>I'm not that blind

But, see USA touched it by a total accident. He wasn't paying attention to the ball.

Germany saw the ball coming and there was no goalie around so he touched it.

Which is cheating?

But someone's right... it's just a game. I need to relax a bit and wait till next year

Parvulesco · Jun 23, 2002, 11:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tigerabbit:
Germany will need to out-muscle the Koreans. They need to tire the Koreans' upper bodies so that there's no energy left for the legs. If Germany can do this, they'll win. If they try to play a running game against the Koreans, they'll lose. I have Germany in extra time.<hr /></blockquote>You forgot the third possibility: if the referees have any opportunity to steal victory from the Germans and give it to the South Koreans, they will do so.

Ryu · Jun 24, 2002, 12:01 AM

Hm... this conspiracy theory is here too? Darn... People get lucky sometimes. It's soccer. If you count all the goals that went in in some illegal manner, you will have to spend your whole life.

By the way, I found <a href="http://koreaspain_eng.wo.to/" target="_blank">this site</a>. Reliable or not, Koreans have their own arguments too.

Tigerabbit · Jun 24, 2002, 12:18 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
You forgot the third possibility: if the referees have any opportunity to steal victory from the Germans and give it to the South Koreans, they will do so.<hr /></blockquote>I already know that it's going to be a bad year for Italian wine, due to all the sour grapes. <img src="http://www4.macnn.com/macnn/forums/graemlins/oyvey.gif" alt=" - " />

Spain lost, but at least they were men about it.

Parvulesco · Jun 24, 2002, 12:53 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tigerabbit:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
You forgot the third possibility: if the referees have any opportunity to steal victory from the Germans and give it to the South Koreans, they will do so.<hr /></blockquote>I already know that it's going to be a bad year for Italian wine, due to all the sour grapes. <img src="http://www4.macnn.com/macnn/forums/graemlins/oyvey.gif" alt=" - " />

Spain lost, but at least they were men about it.<hr /></blockquote>You have no idea what you're talking about. Spain has complained just as loudly as Italy about the refereeing situation (and justifiably so)�Angel Maria Villar, the head of the Spanish soccer federation, resigned from the FIFA Refereeing Committee to protest the abysmal display in the Spain-South Korea match. And you must not have seen that Helguera (who had a goal wrongly disallowed on a shoving call in the South Korea game) had to be restrained from the referee at the conclusion of the match.

I honestly cannot understand why you object to these complaints. When you suffer a grave injustice, when you have something stolen from you, should you ignore what you have endured?

And again, you're missing the point: Spain (and Italy for that matter, but we've been through that before) DIDN'T lose. Helguera scored a legitimate goal during regulation time that was wrongly disallowed. Morientes scored a beautiful goal on a lovely pass from Joaqu�n in overtime that was ridiculously called out of bounds. They had victory stolen from them by the referees, perhaps even more blatantly than the Italians did.

I really have a hard time believing that match fixing is going on, as I noted in another post, but it is not a ridiculous allegation. Despite all of the atrocious refereeing that has occurred throughout the tournament, South Korea has never been on the wrong side of an egregious call.

If you support South Korea, congratulations on their berth in the group of four. But wouldn't you feel better if they honestly deserved to be there?

And if you honestly believe that South Korea is a superior team to Portugal, Italy, Spain, etc., there's nothing I can do to help you.

[ 06-24-2002, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: Parvulesco ]

Ryu · Jun 24, 2002, 02:06 AM

Italy: One refused goal and one red card.

One refused goal is actually not a goal since all the players stopped playing when the referee whistled while an Italian just decided to ignore it and put the ball in the net. Actually, I even believe that the Italian player could score it if there was no ruling out but oh well... the whistle was blown long before the Italian player's so-called goal so... No goal... sorry.

The red card was in fact a bi*ch. I agree that there was no proof for a yellow card that sent Totti out of the game.

Spain: Two refused goals?

No. No two refused goals. One only. The refused header ruled out for a foul. Can't really agree nor disagree but this is definitely a refused goal. But the other one is not a refused goal since, once again, when the whistle was blown, all the Korean players stopped playing. A refused occasion, more likely. For this one, the Korean keeper was only one or two feets away from the ball so if there was no whistle, I'm sure he could stop it.

I sympathize the Spanish team more because they saw two perfect occasions ruled out for offside. Not for these so-called goals. Well, people who watched the match will understand.

About the Portugese... no chance. The first red was deserved. The second was more controversial but that was for the referee to decide. I think the Korean victory was perfectly justified.

Anyway, the other team that I sympathize other than Spain is the US. There was a German hand which deserved a penalty but the referee just didn't see it. Oh well... an US player used his hand in the match against Mexico also... so...

<img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

[ 06-24-2002, 05:04 AM: Message edited by: Ryu ]

Ryu · Jun 24, 2002, 02:11 AM

Oh yeah... I hope that they will play a good match agains Germany that will not bring up again this type of controversy.

It quite nice to see some new teams in the World Cup semi-finals.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I really have a hard time believing that match fixing is going on, as I noted in another post, but it is not a ridiculous allegation. Despite all of the atrocious refereeing that has occurred throughout the tournament, South Korea has never been on the wrong side of an egregious call.
<hr /></blockquote>Uh... yeah... it did happen. When the Korean player got hurt against the Spanish, he did get tackled from behind. One red card was deserved here. Again, when a Spanish player gave a good kick on a another player, Ahn's(the only Korean player I know by name due to that scandal about him being fired from an Italian team) chest, that deserved a card also.

Against Italy, one player broke one of Korean players' nose because the Italian players just seem to aim intentionally the nose while jumping. This was rather frequent through out the match.(you see at least three Korean players getting hurt on the nose during the match) Even the French newpaper, le Monde, admits it. And of course, I agree. And you know that this type of dangerous actions are worth cards.

And finally, I believe Ahn had a goal refused against Poland.

[ 06-24-2002, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: Ryu ]

undotwa · Jun 24, 2002, 04:20 AM

Stop with all these conspiracy theories... stupid Europeans.

Bad decisions were made in all matches, not just with Korea. The referees were just not that good this year. The Koreans played well, you just have to admit it. Nothing is going on within Fifa to make sure Korea wins to bring in more interest from Asia.

theolein · Jun 24, 2002, 07:46 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ryu:
Oh yeah... I hope that they will play a good match agains Germany that will not bring up again this type of controversy.

It quite nice to see some new teams in the World Cup semi-finals.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I really have a hard time believing that match fixing is going on, as I noted in another post, but it is not a ridiculous allegation. Despite all of the atrocious refereeing that has occurred throughout the tournament, South Korea has never been on the wrong side of an egregious call.
<hr /></blockquote>Uh... yeah... it did happen. When the Korean player got hurt against the Spanish, he did get tackled from behind. One red card was deserved here. Again, when a Spanish player gave a good kick on a another player, Ahn's(the only Korean player I know by name due to that scandal about him being fired from an Italian team) chest, that deserved a card also.

Against Italy, one player broke one of Korean players' nose because the Italian players just seem to aim intentionally the nose while jumping. This was rather frequent through out the match.(you see at least three Korean players getting hurt on the nose during the match) Even the French newpaper, le Monde, admits it. And of course, I agree. And you know that this type of dangerous actions are worth cards.

And finally, I believe Ahn had a goal refused against Poland.<hr /></blockquote>Hey Ryu, the player whose nose got broken was an *Italian* player. Avec un nom comme le tien, on pourait croire que t'es de l'asie. Ca n'serait pas la Coree, non?

theolein · Jun 24, 2002, 07:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by undotwa:
Stop with all these conspiracy theories... stupid Europeans.

Bad decisions were made in all matches, not just with Korea. The referees were just not that good this year. The Koreans played well, you just have to admit it. Nothing is going on within Fifa to make sure Korea wins to bring in more interest from Asia.<hr /></blockquote>I seem to remember a certain cricket match between Australia and new Zealand that almost ended in diplomatic relations being suspended. Moral of the story is that if you lived in a country where football was important, you'ld be a whiny australian whining at whiny europeans and whiny yanks etc.

Developer · Jun 24, 2002, 09:30 AM

If the Germans will lose, they'll have no reason to complain about. With reaching the semi-finals, they have reached more than they ever could have dreamed of.

macaddled · Jun 24, 2002, 10:50 AM

You know, I don't really believe in the conspiracy theories...

buuut... I wonder what Roy Jones, Jr would have to say about all this?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> By the way, I found this site. Reliable or not, Koreans have their own arguments too. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, they do, it's just that they are wrong. Not necessarily the shirt pulling one, but the Morientes one is a masterful use of the wrong angle. The better angle showed it clearly, and this argument here, is, to put it mildly, bunk.

[ 06-24-2002, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: macaddled ]

M�lum · Jun 24, 2002, 10:59 AM

conspiracy theories...

Why not. Soccer (football) has a long and infamous history of corruption. There is to much money involved.
Like boxing matches, hockey, etc. etc.

If only Senegal would have won from the Turks.....

Vanquish · Jun 24, 2002, 12:12 PM

Talking about conspiracy theories:... I have proof that Elvis is alive...

Ryu · Jun 24, 2002, 03:19 PM

No... the player who got the nose broken is Korean. The Italian player who got hurt during the match saw a hard injury just above his eyes by his own team mate.

Morientes goal, again I insist, was a missed occasion. Not a goal. Thank you very much.

Parvulesco · Jun 24, 2002, 03:53 PM

In case some of you still think that it is only Italians and Spaniards that are disgusted with the officiating at the 2002 World Cup, I direct you to <a href="http://worldcup.espnsoccernet.com/story?id=218874&lang=us" target="_blank">this page</a> on ESPN.com. According to the author, Michael Lewis (who writes for the New York Daily News), "these botched calls have ruined the Cup as they have taken goals, wins and advancement away from teams that deserved better fates. Let's face it. The credibility of the World Cup and even FIFA is on the line."

For the British perspective, I direct you to <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport3/worldcup2002/hi/features/newsid_2060000/2060702.stm" target="_blank">"A catalogue of errors"</a> by Paul Fletcher from the BBC Sport Online (I believe theolein already has provided the link to this article).

[ 06-24-2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Parvulesco ]

Ryu · Jun 24, 2002, 04:23 PM

I absolutely agree that the refereeing in this WC is just pathetic. However, I find more pathetic that the world opinion comes up with this purely virtual conspiracy theory. That's all.

Soccer is probably the richest sport and I just can't understand why they won't allow video assistance as they have been doing for such small sport as rugby.

jean-henri · Jun 24, 2002, 04:33 PM

The bizarre refereeing has really darkened this tournament. Just before the decisive matches I find myself longing for Euro 2004. I'm looking forward to see what the Turkish squad can do, though. I supported Germany from day 1, but found out that the b**ch didn't deserve my deep affection.

Parvulesco · Jun 24, 2002, 04:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ryu:
I absolutely agree that the refereeing in this WC is just pathetic. However, I find more pathetic that the world opinion comes up with this purely virtual conspiracy theory. That's all.

Soccer is probably the richest sport and I just can't understand why they won't allow video assistance as they have been doing for such small sport as rugby.<hr /></blockquote>I myself have stated that I don't believe that there's been a conspiracy. It is by no means absurd to suggest that possibility, however.

How about sending Roy Jones Jr. and some of his fighting dogs in as special investigator?

JHromadka · Jun 24, 2002, 05:02 PM

"Yeah, those are the breaks," U.S. captain Claudio Reyna <a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/world/2002/world_cup/news/2002/06/21/germany_usa_gamer/index.html" target="_blank">said</a>. "But we're not going to cry like the Mexicans did. That's the game. We had other chances."

I'm just glad the US players didn't whine about the handball in the Germany game like Mexico did. I'm sure FIFA will look at who it selects for the referees and adjusts accordingly in the future.

Parvulesco · Jun 24, 2002, 05:21 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JHromadka:
"Yeah, those are the breaks," U.S. captain Claudio Reyna <a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/world/2002/world_cup/news/2002/06/21/germany_usa_gamer/index.html" target="_blank">said</a>. "But we're not going to cry like the Mexicans did. That's the game. We had other chances."

I'm just glad the US players didn't whine about the handball in the Germany game like Mexico did. I'm sure FIFA will look at who it selects for the referees and adjusts accordingly in the future.<hr /></blockquote>I certainly hope so. Byron Moreno, the Ecuadoran referee who officiated the Italy-South Korea travesty, had refereed ONE (1) international match in his career before being chose for the World Cup.

This would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic.

[ 06-24-2002, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Parvulesco ]

theolein · Jun 24, 2002, 06:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JHromadka:
"Yeah, those are the breaks," U.S. captain Claudio Reyna <a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/world/2002/world_cup/news/2002/06/21/germany_usa_gamer/index.html" target="_blank">said</a>. "But we're not going to cry like the Mexicans did. That's the game. We had other chances."

I'm just glad the US players didn't whine about the handball in the Germany game like Mexico did. I'm sure FIFA will look at who it selects for the referees and adjusts accordingly in the future.<hr /></blockquote>It's a good thing the USA team didn't whine about the handball from the german team as they had a fairly obvious handball themselves in their match against Mexico. However, I think the USA team played magnificent football and finally placed the USA on the map in international football.

ro80 · Jun 24, 2002, 07:11 PM

Those refs are, whether he likes it or not, mr. Blatter's revenge on UEFA. One of the things he used to buy his current seat. We're left with waiting for the next upset or more novelty value instead of thriller semi final matches. I'm not saying they're bought, btw... just not very competent.
I like the South Korean team and wish them all the best (Guus H. is supposed to come back to my favourite club team after the tournament, you know...), but I think it's the referees that brought them where they are now.

On the subject of video assistance: Please, no. It'll take time away from the game, while right now we often have something like 50 minutes effective playing time in a 90 minute match.
Besides, it would take away a lot of the fun that is 'What IF...' Like: 'What if he hadn't hit the post in the 90th minute', 'What if we hadn't gotten screwed by that idiot ref?' IMO that's as much part of enjoying football as is seeing your team reach the finals. You gotta know how to lose if you want to win, as they teach you in TV movies.
I for one know that I've played out a few of those scenario's in my head this WC...