[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

People who try to tell other people WHICH VEHICLE to drive are fascist a$$holes.

Stop trying to tell the rest of us what to do. Dumb democrats.

Wtf does politics have to do with that? One of my business partners is as conservative as they come. He cannot stand SUVs.

[quote68]

Originally Posted by smacintush

Cool! I didn't realize that civics and accords had such great towing capacity!

She hasn't gotten back to us how big her boat is. I'm guessing she doesn't own a cigarette boat.

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I pull a horse trailer and a boat trailer and a minivan doesn't haul 4 tons the last I knew.

You have an eight thousand pound boat? wtf

[quote68]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

People who try to tell other people WHICH VEHICLE to drive are fascist a$$holes.

Stop trying to tell the rest of us what to do. Dumb democrats.

I'm not telling you what to do. I'm making you face the truth, which you don't want to admit.

You do not NEEEEEEEED an SUV. Period. Heck, most people don't even need cars if they live in the city. You want one. Admit it. Otherwise I'm going to keep attacking you for not being true about your own desires.

[quote68]

Originally Posted by iMOTOR

You have an eight thousand pound boat? wtf

Exactly. My dad's 35 foot sunrunner doesn't even weight that much. Maybe her horses are fat?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Fyre4ce

I'm not buying your argument at face value. Data? References? Or is it just a hypothesis?

Just personal observations from here.

Originally Posted by Fyre4ce

I live in the north east US - I know all about snow storms. I have a small FWD vehicle, and there are maybe one or two days per year (average) that I can't drive because the rate of snowfall. But, this is mostly related to the fact that I don't have snow tires. My vehicle, with snow tires, would almost equal the snow performance of most SUV's, and an AWD car, like a Subaru, with snow tires, will equal or outperform most SUV's in the snow.

OK. See, we don't get Suburbans here - we only really get SUVs which are actually pretty good in the snow.

Originally Posted by Fyre4ce

The snow plows around here are pretty good. I have a pretty hard time believing that the city says, "screw it, people have SUV's, we don't need to plow the roads."

Hey, I live in the UK. That's how they do things here.

[quote68]

Originally Posted by Doofy

And which car would tow the horses that they were taking to the gymkhana? Or the boat they were going to spend the day in?

Well considering the MPG of most boats, I think I'd choose the more fuel efficient vehicle.

[quote68]

Originally Posted by Doofy

we only really get SUVs which are actually pretty good in the snow.

Yeah a vehicle with a really high center of gravity and lots of mass with fairly wide tires sure is awesome in the snow.

Man I wish I had money. I'd get an STI or Forester XT and challenge almost any SUV tosser on the planet to a race on a snowy track for pink slips. They'd get destroyed.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy

we only really get SUVs which are actually pretty good in the snow.

Kind off. Here you see a fair number of SUVs in the ditch in winter. Why? Because their drivers overestimated their vehicle's abilities. Just because AWD means you don't slip on accelaration, doesn't mean that the laws of physics don't apply. I feel much safer in my Saab, which has excellent winter performance, than in an overweight SUV.

I used to drive an old Land Rover, a Series IIa. Great to get going in, but a bitch to stop.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by quote68

Exactly. My dad's 35 foot sunrunner doesn't even weight that much.

Is that thing made out of balsa wood or what? A 35' Sunseeker is 17,000 Lbs plus.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

People who try to tell other people WHICH VEHICLE to drive are fascist a$$holes.

Stop trying to tell the rest of us what to do. Dumb democrats.

You love labels don't you?

The more you post the more my head hurts...

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Kind off. Here you see a fair number of SUVs in the ditch in winter. Why? Because their drivers overestimated their vehicle's abilities. Just because AWD means you don't slip on accelaration, doesn't mean that the laws of physics don't apply.

Yep. I'll concede that factor.

Originally Posted by Mastrap

I used to drive an old Land Rover, a Series IIa. Great to get going in, but a bitch to stop.

One word: Pirelli (oh, and a brake upgrade if we're talking IIa!)

[quote68]

Oh crap. I lied. It weighs 11,000 lbs. But he tows it with this:

Edit: He scored that freightliner from a trucking company for $3000. It used to be ugly, bright orange (allied trucking) and slightly corroded. It tows the boat just fine, and it sure is funny to see SUVS sliding around while trying to pull their boats outta the water. Heh.

Guess what he uses it for? ONLY TOWING THE BOAT! The rest of the time he either drives an 80s shitty pontiac wagon in the city, or for longer trips the supercharged buick riv. The riv gets better mpg than the wagon on the highway.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by quote68

Yeah a vehicle with a really high center of gravity and lots of mass with fairly wide tires sure is awesome in the snow.

Man I wish I had money. I'd get an STI or Forester XT and challenge almost any SUV tosser on the planet to a race on a snowy track for pink slips. They'd get destroyed.

One day I'll take you up on that.

[quote68]

You'd get owned.

[Cody Dawg]

BTW, Yes, I NEED an SUV.

You're probably a smoker. (A lot of people here are.)

They will tell you they NEED their cigarettes.

Some of you will say you NEED sex.

Some of you will say you NEED sleep.

I NEED my Suburban. I love it. I've paid for it. I use it all of the time. I teach some classes, give some lectures, haul boxes of books and manuals around, haul dogs in their dog crates around, pull a horse trailer once in a while, but most of all, I just love driving it. It is big, heavy, and slow, but I like the great stereo system in it (Coldplay sounds great in it) and I love the sunroof when I'm driving down the sunlit roads alongside Florida beaches. Yesterday I had to haul a John Deere tractor and it was easy to hook up and tow it for a friend.

I love it. I want it. I deserve it because I've worked for it and paid for it.

Why don't you SUV nazis go tell the sportscar people to stop driving their gas-guzzling sportsters, eh?

It gets to the point where I honestly think you're all jealous.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by quote68

You'd get owned.

Doubt it.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

BTW, Yes, I NEED an SUV.

You're probably a smoker. (A lot of people here are.)

They will tell you they NEED their cigarettes.

Some of you will say you NEED sex.

Some of you will say you NEED sleep.

I NEED my Suburban. I love it. I've paid for it. I use it all of the time. I teach some classes, give some lectures, haul boxes of books and manuals around, haul dogs in their dog crates around, pull a horse trailer once in a while, but most of all, I just love driving it. It is big, heavy, and slow, but I like the great stereo system in it (Coldplay sounds great in it) and I love the sunroof when I'm driving down the sunlit roads alongside Florida beaches. Yesterday I had to haul a John Deere tractor and it was easy to hook up and tow it for a friend.

I love it. I want it. I deserve it because I've worked for it and paid for it.

Why don't you SUV nazis go tell the sportscar people to stop driving their gas-guzzling sportsters, eh?

It gets to the point where I honestly think you're all jealous.

No, the only thing that they understand is their point of view. You are supposed to drive what they say because they are smart and you are dumb. Freedom doesn't matter unless they say it matters.

And yes, Rob is secretly in love with SUV's, he is just mad because if he drove one his friends would not like him anymore.

[IceEnclosure]

This thread needs octane boost.

Or maybe more republicans, according to Cody.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

It gets to the point where I honestly think you're all jealous.

Of course. That'll be it.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

It gets to the point where I honestly think you're all jealous.

Amazing.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by smacintush

Freedom doesn't matter unless they say it matters.

One man's freedom to swing his arms ends where another man's nose begins. SUVs are a danger to the rest of us. Seems a pretty good definition of 'nose begins' to me.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

It gets to the point where I honestly think you're all jealous.

Thats because your silly.

I'm not jealous, I drive a Ford F-450 Diesel (with the 7.3L International V8) with an 8' wide by 12' hydraulic dump bed. That and a 2004 GMC Savanna 2500 work van.

Let me know how the weather is in your little world.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

One man's freedom to swing his arms ends where another man's nose begins. SUVs are a danger to the rest of us. Seems a pretty good definition of 'nose begins' to me.

Bingo.

Along the same lines I am not allowed to drive a dump truck without a special liscene because of the danger to the rest of the commuting public.

[Fyre4ce]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

People who try to tell other people WHICH VEHICLE to drive are fascist a$$holes.

Stop trying to tell the rest of us what to do. Dumb democrats.

Did you read my long post about the image of SUV's? Any reaction?

The government right now already very carefully regulates what types of vehicles it allows on the roads. I happen to think that behaviors that have an effect on other people (in this case, polluting more and driving up energy prices) SHOULD be regulated, and most voters agree. If you really want NO regulation, you should vote libertarian in the next election. For your information, I'm neither republican nor democrat. I tend to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative, but it depends on the issue. I voted republican in the last election. I would support the abolishment of almost any law that restricted personal freedom where it doesn't affect other people (for instance, sodomy laws). But driving an SUV is not in in that category, at least not anymore.

My solution to the problem would NOT involve regulation. In this case I don't think the answer to our problem is to regulate SUV's or any type of vehicle. I think the answer is to alter the economy of energy, basically by taxing gasoline and then repaying the money for necessary uses. It would work like this: add a $5/gallon tax on gasoline. From the pool of tax revenue, pay out to everyone who has a job enough money to pay for gas to get to work and back, making reasonable assumptions (10 miles each way, 30 mpg, 5 days per week) plus throw in some extra money for errands and an occasional road trip. The remaining money would be used to subsidize the consumer purchases of small, fuel-efficient vehicles. 100% of the money would go back to consumers. The beauty of this system is that it always encourages fuel savings. If you carpool to work, you still get the full "fuel allowance" that everyone else gets but you end up buying less fuel!

I'm not trying to tell you what vehicle you should drive. I AM saying that, if for whatever reason, you need to consume more fuel (lots of kids, penchant for boating, live far away from work, whatever) you should pay for other people to buy hybrids or trade in older, larger cars for newer, smaller ones to offset your large consumption. In short, I don't think I, the government, or ANYONE should tell you whether or not you need an SUV. Rather, I think you should be forced to honestly evaluate on your own how badly you need that vehicle, by being offered financial incentives for consuming less fuel and financial penalties for consuming more.

[quote68]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

BTW, Yes, I NEED an SUV.

You're probably a smoker. (A lot of people here are.)

They will tell you they NEED their cigarettes.

Some of you will say you NEED sex.

Some of you will say you NEED sleep.

I NEED my Suburban. I love it. I've paid for it. I use it all of the time. I teach some classes, give some lectures, haul boxes of books and manuals around, haul dogs in their dog crates around, pull a horse trailer once in a while, but most of all, I just love driving it. It is big, heavy, and slow, but I like the great stereo system in it (Coldplay sounds great in it) and I love the sunroof when I'm driving down the sunlit roads alongside Florida beaches. Yesterday I had to haul a John Deere tractor and it was easy to hook up and tow it for a friend.

I love it. I want it. I deserve it because I've worked for it and paid for it.

Why don't you SUV nazis go tell the sportscar people to stop driving their gas-guzzling sportsters, eh?

It gets to the point where I honestly think you're all jealous.

You sound like a dumb whore. That's about all I have to say. Nobody NEEDS cigarettes or sex, they just 'want' it. As for sleep, not sure about that. I haven't read about those sleep deprivation tests. Ultimately, you need to come to terms that you WANT an SUV, you do not ****ing need it. Anything you say otherwise is just plain old ********.

PS: What kind of boat? Tongue weight on the horse trailer? You are full of **** Cody.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

People who try to tell other people WHICH VEHICLE to drive are fascist a$$holes.

Stop trying to tell the rest of us what to do. Dumb democrats.

Don't you start a thread every other day about people you will never meet and rant about what they should or shouldn't do then proceed to pronounce judgement upon them?

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Fyre4ce

In short, I don't think I, the government, or ANYONE should tell you whether or not you need an SUV. Rather, I think you should be forced to honestly evaluate on your own how badly you need that vehicle, by being offered financial incentives for consuming less fuel and financial penalties for consuming more.

Which is what most "smart" consumers do. Only buy the vehicle that you actually need.

But America certainly isn't mainly comprised of "smart" consumers, just look at the H2.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Jim Paradise

Don't you start a thread every other day about people you will never meet and rant about what they should or shouldn't do then proceed to pronounce judgement upon them?

Thats because as an ignorant loud-mouthed mother she feels raising a family gives her the right to tell everyone else what to do without taking any advice herself.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by sek929

just look at the H2.

Aughhh! My eyes! *gouge, gouge*

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by sek929

America certainly isn't mainly comprised of "smart" consumers, just look at the H2.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...rsuaders/view/

(in particular chapter 4)

[quote68]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I deserve it because I've worked for it and paid for it.

Why don't you SUV nazis go tell the sportscar people to stop driving their gas-guzzling sportsters, eh?

It gets to the point where I honestly think you're all jealous.

Again, your inane comments make all women appear dumber. Thanks for that.

If I pay for and love a gun, can I shoot your dog with it? Oh. Okay. Can I shoot AROUND your dog with it? What if your dog is on public roads? I'm not TRYING to hurt your dog, I just love my gun and I paid for it and I deserve it! Why can't I shoot around your dog? I mean, if he gets hurt, it wouldn't be because I did it on purpose.

FACTAlthough only one out of every three registered vehicles is an SUV, collisions between SUVs and cars now account for more of the nation's traffic fatalities than any other type of two-vehicle collision. This statistic has proven true for every year since 1992, with 80% of the fatalities being occupants of the car.

The National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration (NHTSA) compiled a list of all passenger vehicles [1] based on their "aggressivity" in 1996 crash statistics. Aggressivity was essentially a measure of how likely a vehicle is to fatally injure the drivers of other vehicles on the road. Almost every vehicle in the top 20 of the list was an SUV.

Here's the list:

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-11/esv96cg.pdf

You are endangering everyone else on the road.

Also, you aren't safe either. Statistically, you're 3 times more likely to die in an SUV, since MOST car accidents are SINGLE VEHICLE ACCIDENTS, and an SUV with it's weak roof (roof standards ahve not improved since 1972), high CG, soft suspension, **** brakes, and stiff frames that transmit more energy to their occupants, are killers.

Also, the reason nobody is harassing sports car owners is because sports car sales have been on the decline thanks to SUVs. Not all the "I get knocked up 4 times so I claim I need a big vehicle" soccer moms are running around trying to buy sports cars, they're being stupid uninformed women and climing into a bigger vehicle thinking it's safer when in fact it's the complete opposite.

YOU ARE BEING STUPID AND ILLOGICAL.

[sek929]

The H2 has awful build quality and initial quality according to consumers.

So not only is it a huge wasteful monster, but its a POS too! hahah! Some people have to learn the hard way I guess.

[quote68]

Originally Posted by sek929

Which is what most "smart" consumers do. Only buy the vehicle that you actually need.

But America certainly isn't mainly comprised of "smart" consumers, just look at the H2.

Or Cody Dawg's description of why she 'needs' an SUV. I can't believe she mentioned she loves driving and digs the stereo. Holy ****. She must have never driven anything else available. Ever.

[sek929]

For all of Ca$h's shortcomings he hits the nail on the head with this SUV issue.

If you don't think so you are in denial. SUVs are bought because they seem "safe" when they are anything but. Any large vehicle requires more skill and care when driving than any small vehicle...and I don't see SUV driver training courses.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

BTW, Yes, I NEED an SUV.

You're probably a smoker. (A lot of people here are.)

They will tell you they NEED their cigarettes.

Some of you will say you NEED sex.

Some of you will say you NEED sleep.

I NEED my Suburban. I love it. I've paid for it. I use it all of the time. I teach some classes, give some lectures, haul boxes of books and manuals around, haul dogs in their dog crates around, pull a horse trailer once in a while, but most of all, I just love driving it. It is big, heavy, and slow, but I like the great stereo system in it (Coldplay sounds great in it) and I love the sunroof when I'm driving down the sunlit roads alongside Florida beaches. Yesterday I had to haul a John Deere tractor and it was easy to hook up and tow it for a friend.

I love it. I want it. I deserve it because I've worked for it and paid for it.

Why don't you SUV nazis go tell the sportscar people to stop driving their gas-guzzling sportsters, eh?

It gets to the point where I honestly think you're all jealous.

[SVass]

To reduce SUV sales would be simple. Just require them to be driven as TRUCKS. Obey lower speed limits and stay in the right lane except when passing. Idiots would no longer buy them. sam

PS Cody, my MGB gets better gas mileage than your SUV.

[Fyre4ce]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

BTW, Yes, I NEED an SUV.

You're probably a smoker. (A lot of people here are.)

They will tell you they NEED their cigarettes.

Some of you will say you NEED sex.

Some of you will say you NEED sleep.

I NEED my Suburban. I love it. I've paid for it. I use it all of the time. I teach some classes, give some lectures, haul boxes of books and manuals around, haul dogs in their dog crates around, pull a horse trailer once in a while, but most of all, I just love driving it. It is big, heavy, and slow, but I like the great stereo system in it (Coldplay sounds great in it) and I love the sunroof when I'm driving down the sunlit roads alongside Florida beaches. Yesterday I had to haul a John Deere tractor and it was easy to hook up and tow it for a friend.

I love it. I want it. I deserve it because I've worked for it and paid for it.

Why don't you SUV nazis go tell the sportscar people to stop driving their gas-guzzling sportsters, eh?

It gets to the point where I honestly think you're all jealous.

I would gladly support a ban on smoking, or at least legislation to outlaw smoking in public, and making smokers pay their own health care costs.

Sex is an activity that takes place privately (usually) and doesn't affect other people at all. Regardless of whether or not it's "needed" it shouldn't be regulated by the government.

Humans need sleep in order to survive. Artificially keep a person awake long enough and they will die.

But back to SUV's... What's this I read?

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

...but most of all, I just love driving it.

Breakthrough! Isn't this what I've been saying all along? Most people do not need SUV's (need, in the sense of keeping the economy going, ie. being able to get to work and back, run errands to conduct business, not purely leisure activities like boating).

Me, I'm a humanist. I care about human interest. If our energy supplies were almost limitless, (and safety and pollution were not issues), heck, drive an M1 tank if you want! But, to me, it doesn't make sense for you to drive a suburban because you "just love driving it" while you're consuming an increasingly scarce resource and polluting the other natural resources we all rely on. Sooner or later, oil will become so scarce that gasoline will be prohibitively expensive. When this happens, I bet everyone will all be wishing we had a little more forethought to take reasonable measures to slow down our consumption, and give our engineers more time to come up with a long term solution to energy and transportation.

The strategy I proposed in my previous post (the tax) would reduce ALL forms of fuel consumption (SUV's, sports cars, race cars, boats, ATV's, etc.). I just tend to pick on SUV's because they are far more prolific than any of the other things I mentioned, and are fairly easily replaceable with smaller vehicles.

And jealous? Please. I have a good job and could easily afford a large SUV, like a suburban. But why would I want to waste my money on a vehicle that is slow, handles poorly, and guzzles gas? I have a Chevy Cavalier, definitely a "low-end" car for my salary, but it gets 34 mpg, is dirt-cheap to own, and is fun to drive (5-speed). I'd much rather spend my money on other things that improve my quality of life.

I await your response.

[sek929]

Fry4ce, you have an amazing ability to stay on topic.

Its not the late 30s mom who will suffer the wrath of over-consumption, it is the generations to come. Can't we think to the future for once?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I DO "need" an SUV.

I have FOUR - count 'em - four children. My friend's son is staying here - I have two 13 year olds in my house right now. I do animal rescue and I am constantly hauling those things around.

Do I grimace when I fill up the tank? Yes.

But do I have a choice? No.

What I am doing is making sure that all of my running around is done in a day and I don't make any extra trips for things.

Now, while we're discussing SUV sales "tanking," why don't you also discuss how the economy is going downhill...FAST? People are starting to default on credit card payments. Not too hard given that gas is so expensive and as a result EVERYTHING goes up, not just a gallon of gas at a pump. Oh, and Alan Greenspan is so "worried" about the credit card issue that he's demanding that credit card companies double their minimum payments from 2% to 4%.

Link.

We're in deep sh*t in this country and don't blame it on the SUV drivers.

Your family needs to invest in skateboards.

[Fyre4ce]

Originally Posted by sek929

Fry4ce, you have an amazing ability to stay on topic.

Thanks. I want my money's worth out of this argument!

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Your family needs to invest in skateboards.

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

BTW, Yes, I NEED an SUV.
I teach some classes, give some lectures, haul boxes of books and manuals around, haul dogs in their dog crates around, pull a horse trailer once in a while,

A Ford Freestar can haul boxes of books and dog crates, and for the record, a freestar can tow over 3000lbs. What exactly do you own that weighs Eight Thousand Pounds?

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

BTW, Yes, I NEED an SUV.
I just love driving it. It is big, heavy, and slow, but I like the great stereo system in it (Coldplay sounds great in it) and I love the sunroof when I'm driving down the sunlit roads alongside Florida beaches.

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

It gets to the point where I honestly think you're all jealous.

If I was jealous of a suburban, then I (as well as many in this forum) would simply take my S80 to the Chevy dealer and trade it in for a suburban and then some.

The thought of willfully owning and driving a suburban makes me want to puke. But if you need to tow John Deer tractors and haul eight thousand pounds of cargo, more power to ya.

[himself]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

BTW, Yes, I NEED an SUV.

debatable...

You're probably a smoker. (A lot of people here are.)

nope.

They will tell you they NEED their cigarettes.

don't like 'em. see above.

Some of you will say you NEED sex.

I won't say I need it, but if you're offering...

Some of you will say you NEED sleep.

Hell yeah, I need sleep! What else is there to do after sex? Besides smoking a cigarette?

I can't stand SUV's, but I appreciate some people have a legitimate need for one. More power to those people.

Me, I live in the big city and I use public transportation, I bike, and walk/run to my destinations. Helps me to stay healthy, saves money. If absolutely need a vehicle for something, I can borrow one from a friend or relative (and pay for the use), or rent for the time I need it. I may end up buying a car soon, but it damn sure won't be a gas-guzzler. And I'm certain that I won't use it often.

Originally Posted by residentEvil

End of discussion. Period. And f all of you saying go on a diet. I am trying. But that will never help leg and head room in a vehicle which is where the problem is. So again, stop telling me what I can and can't drive.

If you're really interested in a roomy car that isn't an SUV, you'd be surprised at the spaciousness of the VW Beetle. I've see 300lb+, 6ft+ guys fit comfortably. Also worth checking out is the Scion xB (if you like that type of styling), or the Honda Element, and the Subarus. There are plenty of non-SUVs that can accommodate large fellas.

[sek929]

I smoke cigs. I don't need them, in fact, thats such a silly thing to say. Noone "needs" drugs they simply want them.

Seems like the only thing Cody needs is to constantly group people together and label them as she sees fit.

[Doofy]

And here we are ladies and gentlemen: the start of the death of America. When the population can no longer buy what they want and are instead forced to buy what they need, you no longer have America - you have a Marxist hellhole.

Originally Posted by Karl Marx

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.

I will be expecting all of you to be throwing out your CDs, stereos, iPods, TVs, etc., etc.. Because you don't need those things. Neither do you need to eat meat, so I'll be expecting you all to be veggie by the end of the week (which will decrease pollution to the benefit of all).

Or you could just STFU and stop whining at Cody whilst being glad you live in a country where you can go buy the vehicle of your choice.

[sek929]

an iPod won't crush a passenger car Doofy.

Thats a pretty weak argument.

[esXXI]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

BTW, Yes, I NEED an SUV.

You're probably a smoker. (A lot of people here are.)

They will tell you they NEED their cigarettes.

Some of you will say you NEED sex.

Some of you will say you NEED sleep.

I NEED my Suburban. I love it. I've paid for it. I use it all of the time.

Except, smoking is an addiction, sex can be an addiction (arguably, but it's still a perfectly normal human desire - like hunger), and you do need sleep - unless you want to start having problems, or even die. It really does sound like you're trying to justify it, bar wanting it. Surely, occasionally (you said that yourself) towing a horse trailer or a boat could be done cheaper by hiring a vehicle when you need to?

Originally Posted by Jim Paradise

Don't you start a thread every other day about people you will never meet and rant about what they should or shouldn't do then proceed to pronounce judgement upon them?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by sek929

an iPod won't crush a passenger car Doofy.

Thats a pretty weak argument.

So you're already veggie then? Because that crap they use in meat production is affecting us all (increased resistance to antibiotics because all you meaties are basically dosing up every meal).

[sek929]

Nah, I like my food to have a soul