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The Official MacNN COVID-19 Thread (Page 35)
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Laminar
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Jan 23, 2023, 05:33 PM
 
"I don't understand it so it must be easy."



Rob arrived at "I know everything" at the age of 13 and never left.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 23, 2023, 05:33 PM
 
Be careful. As soon as you think you can get rid of telephone sanitizers, along comes a nasty virus and wipes out the planet... oh wai

https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrincham
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 23, 2023, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Snicker all you want. Still true. Not very hard to frame a building, run pex, run wiring, etc. A lot of those jobs are fairly easy, just physically demanding.
For something that's so easily replaceable, companies are sure having a hard time finding replacements.



From here: https://www.uschamber.com/workforce/...ted-industries

To further understand shifts in the labor force, it is interesting to look at labor force participation across different industries. Some have a shortage of labor, while others have a surplus of workers.
For example, durable goods manufacturing, wholesale and retail trade, and education and health services have a labor shortage—these industries have more unfilled job openings than unemployed workers with experience in their respective industry. Even if every unemployed person with experience in the durable goods manufacturing industry were employed, the industry would fill roughly a third of the vacant jobs.
Conversely, in the transportation, construction, and mining industries, there is a labor surplus. There are more unemployed workers with experience in their respective industry than there are open jobs.
The manufacturing industry faced a major setback after losing roughly 1.4 million jobs at the onset of the pandemic. Since then, the industry has struggled to hire entry level and skilled workers alike.
Also here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...rikes-economy/

Although employers across the economy say they’re struggling to find and keep workers, labor shortages are most pronounced in retail (where roughly 70 percent of job openings remain unfilled), manufacturing (about 55 percent) and leisure and hospitality (45 percent), according to a U.S. Chamber of Commerce analysis of Labor Department data.
The answer, of course, is population reduction immigration.
     
MacNNFamous
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Jan 23, 2023, 08:09 PM
 
It's hard work but EASILY TRAINED/REPLACED.... Doesn't take long to know how to do that stuff.

Meanwhile to work in genetics for life extension or physics degree for fusion reactors, probably 4-8 years of school?

Plus, think how many useless anti-vaxxers are just working some shitty retail job, or shitty factory job, both of which will be replaced with automation pretty soon if not already.

Edit: They're having a hard time finding those workers because Nobody Wants to Work Anymore (aka they aren't paying high enough wages and want to pretend it's still 2003). Immigration would solve it, but KEEP WAGES LOW. Immigrants have always been lowering wages; no immigration, demand goes up while supply stays the same, wages go up. Pretty simple. This is derailing tho.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 24, 2023, 01:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
It's hard work but EASILY TRAINED/REPLACED.... Doesn't take long to know how to do that stuff.
Very often the “unskilled” in “unskilled labor” is a misnomer. E. g. I am smarter than most welders, but I don’t think I’d be a very good welder. Do you have to be an excellent welder for all welding jobs? No, but for some you do. Plus, many jobs involve more qualifications than meets the eye, e. g. when you take X-rays of patients (I’m deliberately avoiding naming the qualification, because there is more than one).
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Meanwhile to work in genetics for life extension or physics degree for fusion reactors, probably 4-8 years of school?
Or longer. But that doesn’t make them (I should probably say us, because I definitely belong to this category) better or more valuable than others whose gifts lie elsewhere.
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Plus, think how many useless anti-vaxxers are just working some shitty retail job, or shitty factory job, both of which will be replaced with automation pretty soon if not already.
Maybe their overall shittiness is one of the reasons they glom onto anyone who gives them hope and makes them feel better of themselves. And hearing/feeling attitudes from people from our strata of life reinforces their beliefs that people like us are selfish buttholes who aren’t interested in them (rightly or wrongly).
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Edit: They're having a hard time finding those workers because Nobody Wants to Work Anymore (aka they aren't paying high enough wages and want to pretend it's still 2003). Immigration would solve it, but KEEP WAGES LOW. Immigrants have always been lowering wages; no immigration, demand goes up while supply stays the same, wages go up. Pretty simple. This is derailing tho.
Pitching immigrants against the low end of the labor market also seems like a talking point. Many legal immigrants are exceptionally qualified (I’m thinking of people who enter the US with a H1B visa). They are not competing with people flipping burgers at McDonalds.
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Laminar
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Jan 24, 2023, 09:45 AM
 
You guys are just slamming your heads against a wall with him - he's chosen his narratives and he listens to the sources that tell him what he wants to hear.

He's also apparently never worked with an apprentice vs. a craftsman with 8+ years of experience.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 24, 2023, 07:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
He's also apparently never worked with an apprentice vs. a craftsman with 8+ years of experience.
A buddy of mine from uni (who should have gotten at least a MSc in physics, not sure if he did a PhD afterwards) interned for German bike frame maker Nicolai. They are specialized in hand-crafted aluminum frames. Quality stuff. Not the lightest, but they frames are top shelf. According to him the most important guy was the welder — it takes a lot of experience making welds, making sure that you neither weld too slowly (=> too much heat, you could put weak points or holes in the tubes) or too quickly (=> bad welds). At uni we had a fabrication lab for specialized ultra-high vacuum equipment. Same thing, the welder was the guy. He was a bit quirky and sometimes hard to deal with. But you wouldn’t want to piss him off. Welding thin steel into baffles so that you can manipulate samples in an ultra-high vacuum is really hard. If you lose vacuum, you lose (at least) 2 weeks in many experiments, sometimes more. (You have to identify the leak first, then it often takes ~2 weeks to attain ultra-high vacuum again.)

Maybe these are specialized cases, but I think skilled craftspeople are talented in ways that cannot be measured by IQ or other markers of intelligence.
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MacNNFamous
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Jan 24, 2023, 09:42 PM
 
You guys are cherry picking super specialized shit in an effort to disprove my generalization, which is true.

MAJORITY of construction is 'hard work', but not hard to learn how to do, aka Easily trained/replaced labor. This is why for a lot of those jobs you don't need to go to school for a long time; instead you can just apprentice and learn from someone who's done it a while.

I love craftsman, and dabble in damn near everything, so I can appreciate someone good at any task. That said..... majority of maga folk are intimidated by anyone with an education, and compensate by acting anti-education, anti-science, "I didn't need a degree to get what I got", bla bla bla.

But please go ahead and cherry pick that one fucking guy you know who stamps sheet metal all day but is politically progressive, that means what I'm saying holds no water at all.

Most
     
MacNNFamous
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Jan 24, 2023, 09:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Pitching immigrants against the low end of the labor market also seems like a talking point. Many legal immigrants are exceptionally qualified (I’m thinking of people who enter the US with a H1B visa). They are not competing with people flipping burgers at McDonalds.
Still increases supply.... which lowers wages.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 24, 2023, 10:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Still increases supply.... which lowers wages.
You are forgetting that

- immigrants found businesses at a higher rate,
- demand increases as well and
- you have negative effects of people not doing the jobs.

If you cut off H1B visas, the American economy would grow more slowly. Among the companies hit the most you have e. g. FAANG, and a slower growing Apple and Google means an app economy that grows more slowly, too. Many bits of app development is IMHO a new form of blue collar work, one that rewards craftsmanship and an eye towards the practical. Yes, certain aspects of programming really need a lot of brain power (“tool builders” come to mind), but these are the exception rather than the rule.

Overall, immigration is a huge net positive for society. I'm a German expat living in Japan. Germany has had tons of immigration over my lifetime. Just from 2014ish up until now, the country has taken up >1 million refugees on two occasions. And if I have counted correctly, it was the fourth or fifth mass immigration event in my lifetime (depends a little on how you count). On average, there are more people living in Germany that haven't been born there than people living in the US who have been born abroad. The German economy is doing very well, and I think immigration is a major reason why.

Compare and contrast that to Japan with about <2 % of the population not being Japanese. The Japanese economy still hasn't recovered from the burst of the bubble at the end of the 1980s. Most companies have become stagnant. And there is little sustained forward-looking investment. Toshiba had to sell its profitable chip business to cover up losses in their atomic energy branch.
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OreoCookie
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Jan 24, 2023, 10:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
MAJORITY of construction is 'hard work', but not hard to learn how to do, aka Easily trained/replaced labor. This is why for a lot of those jobs you don't need to go to school for a long time; instead you can just apprentice and learn from someone who's done it a while.
Maybe my different background shows here, but in Germany you have to go to school to learn a trade. I'm not allowed to be a plumber or electrician in Germany, because I have not graduated from a trade/vocational school. If you want to own your company in a trade and educate others, you need to do another 2–3 years at trade school to get a Meister (translates to master, but this isn't a master's degree). Recent changes in law made it equivalent to a bachelor degree.

I think it also underestimates the “willingness to do hard work/do something difficult” aspect. I'm an expat. A lot of people I talk to back home told me that they could never picture themselves doing what I did. Starting from scratch with few or no connections is mentally hard. Maybe you have to learn a completely new language. You have to be very determined. Do you know that up until you get used to a language, it is not uncommon that your head literally hurts? This has nothing to do with intelligence, you need a certain type of resilience. Point is that not all aspects that are important to success are measured by education, IQ or some such.
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
I love craftsman, and dabble in damn near everything, so I can appreciate someone good at any task. That said..... majority of maga folk are intimidated by anyone with an education, and compensate by acting anti-education, anti-science, "I didn't need a degree to get what I got", bla bla bla.
I do have anti-education people in my family. On one of our last phone calls my grandmother recently told me that I have never really worked a day in my life, because I never “worked with my hands”. (That isn't true, but who cares.) My dad had to hear this non-sense for as long as he knew her. My mom was denied a higher education, because “she didn't need it.”

Still, one thing I know many less smart people can pick up on is disdain or a lack of respect from people who are objectively smarter than they are. Very occasionally I get that too. I come across as pretty relaxed and relatable. I don't use my degree outside of work (unless asked). In Japan that usually means people think I got here as an English teacher, which is essentially a close-to-minimum wage job on an hourly basis. Not good. So I often get treated as an idiot. They think I cannot really speak and understand Japanese even I initiate communication in correct Japanese (with an accent, of course). I don't want to follow their example. You also won't change anyone's mind this way.
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Laminar
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Jan 25, 2023, 03:51 PM
 
I don't know why you guys are bothering to engage - he spends all day on Reddit or some other toxic online space and gets bombarded with all sorts of messaging to reinforce his shitty views. He's not here to have a discussion, learning something new, or broaden his perspective, he's here to be a little whiny shit and complain about how he's such an oppressed, attacked victim.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 25, 2023, 07:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
You guys are cherry picking super specialized shit in an effort to disprove my generalization, which is true.

MAJORITY of construction is 'hard work', but not hard to learn how to do, aka Easily trained/replaced labor. This is why for a lot of those jobs you don't need to go to school for a long time; instead you can just apprentice and learn from someone who's done it a while.
Well, I like that you got sidetracked to how easy it must be to find help in the construction industry, since here's what I quoted about the construction industry, SPECIFICALLY:

Conversely, in the transportation, construction, and mining industries, there is a labor surplus. There are more unemployed workers with experience in their respective industry than there are open jobs.
That's not where the shortage is.

And the shortage also isn't just "fucking hippie millenials just don't want to work anymore".

It's part "people died of Covid" (which would account for about 5% of the people who've left the workforce over the past two years),

part "people retired early after being unable to work in their job", and

part "Covid exacerbated already shitty work conditions and we're not doing this anymore for the pay", and

part "Tr*mp fucking closed the borders", and

part "Tr*mp so desperately fucked up Covid response that a LOT of immigrants realised they'd be a lot better off at home than in the US".
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 25, 2023, 07:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I don't know why you guys are bothering to engage - he spends all day on Reddit or some other toxic online space and gets bombarded with all sorts of messaging to reinforce his shitty views. He's not here to have a discussion, learning something new, or broaden his perspective, he's here to be a little whiny shit and complain about how he's such an oppressed, attacked victim.
Right now, I don't see him playing the victim. He was floating a narrative that is completely lifted from old Nazi and new Q-Anon storybooks, and we took him up on it.

On second thought, that doesn't sound any better.
     
Laminar
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Jan 25, 2023, 07:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Right now, I don't see him playing the victim. He was floating a narrative that is completely lifted from old Nazi and new Q-Anon storybooks, and we took him up on it.
Because it all ties back to how Covid affects him because he has someone close to him who is immunocompromised.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
I've been wearing a mask for almost 3 years at any indoor function. It fucking sucks.
If that weren't the case, NO ONE believes he'd be pro-lockdown, pro-mask, pro-"caring about other people." Selfishness has always been his #1 driver, in this case he pretends his holy war is about protecting other people, when in reality it's (as it always has been) all about him.
     
MacNNFamous
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Jan 25, 2023, 08:54 PM
 
Definitely all about me. I am my main character.

Back to covid tho... I'm still waiting for the 'big one'. If it got released now, years after the uneducated idiots largely 'won', what would happen? Denial til the very end. Keep masks off kids in school. Keep going to the office. Wonder why hospitals are overloaded then complete supply breakdown then ... riots? Idk. If it turns bad, it'll get REAL bad now since people no longer respond to viral protocols anymore.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 25, 2023, 09:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Definitely all about me. I am my main character.

Back to covid tho... I'm still waiting for the 'big one'. If it got released now,…
Oh wait — you weren't just floating this thought for discussion, but actually BELIEVE that SARS-CoV-2 was engineered and purposely distributed to eliminate a portion of the population?

And that the SIXTY-TWO strains we've had so far were all just to let the uneducated survivors believe they're invincible, so that the NEXT one (#63? #65?) that they release will kill of the uneducated, easily replaced unskilled workers?

As well as a billion others worldwide who may be educated but just not have access to proper healthcare?

yeah…that checks out.
     
Laminar
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Jan 26, 2023, 11:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Definitely all about me. I am my main character.
Yes, Disney Princess Syndrome in full effect.
     
MacNNFamous
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Jan 26, 2023, 12:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Oh wait — you weren't just floating this thought for discussion, but actually BELIEVE that SARS-CoV-2 was engineered and purposely distributed to eliminate a portion of the population?

And that the SIXTY-TWO strains we've had so far were all just to let the uneducated survivors believe they're invincible, so that the NEXT one (#63? #65?) that they release will kill of the uneducated, easily replaced unskilled workers?

As well as a billion others worldwide who may be educated but just not have access to proper healthcare?

yeah…that checks out.
Nah, I'm not 100% sold on it, but if it happens, imma post "i told you so" before the internet goes down
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 26, 2023, 02:52 PM
 
Until then, just be aware that the material you're spreading is of Nazi origin.
     
MacNNFamous
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Jan 26, 2023, 06:27 PM
 
Nah, it's my own creation based off from what I stated earlier.
     
Laminar
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Feb 1, 2023, 12:30 PM
 
     
Spheric Harlot
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Feb 1, 2023, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Nah, it's my own creation based off from what I stated earlier.
Yeah. You "DiD yOuR oWn ResUrcH!", came to your own conclusions, and invented your very own story to match them.

Which, amazingly, also 100% matches Nazi lore and Q-Anon content.

And it really doesn't matter whether you know that "hyper billionaire George Soros type, with cheat mode bank accounts" is Nazi code for "Jewish banker".
     
Spheric Harlot
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Feb 1, 2023, 12:53 PM
 
Sorry, just bursting back in here after Laminar's blatant and plump troll.

I obviously know exactly know why YOU are bothering to engage, again and again, Lam.
     
Laminar
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Feb 1, 2023, 01:50 PM
 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcis...ality_disorder

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder characterized by a life-long pattern of exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, a diminished ability or unwillingness to empathize with others' feelings, and interpersonally exploitative behavior.
     
subego
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Feb 1, 2023, 02:19 PM
 
“[A]ssociated with significant distress”.

This is the important part.
     
ghporter
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Feb 1, 2023, 03:54 PM
 
I’ve “thrown CAT5”, run PVC pipe, mixed and poured concrete, built bits of framing, and done lots of other “easily trained” stuff. Yeah, “easily trained” when the trainee is also technically adept (I taught electronics at the college level for half of my Air Force career). But what about Joe Schlep, who had to be reminded about tying his shoes and to always flush?

Further, most of those tasks I’ve done are further inspected by either a state or local inspector, or the IT guys who will scathingly detail every little goof in your CAT5 wiring. Joe Schlep may “get the job done,” but how much of his work will have to be redone because he couldn’t be bothered to do it right, even if he was properly trained.

Far too many people, particularly Americans with post-secondary school educations, figure that manual labor jobs are simple enough that they can be done by ignoramuses. Ask Mike Rowe about that some time…

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
MacNNFamous
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Feb 3, 2023, 02:46 PM
 
That's not what I said, but go ahead and keep strawmanning I guess.
     
ghporter
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Yesterday, 10:02 AM
 
“What I said” includes your intent. If the intent doesn't come through in the text, the message the reader gets can be quite different from what you meant. It’s all about how communicating with text is different from talking face to face.

Whether you meant to say that many “technical but not-that-technical” jobs were simple or trivial, that’s what I got from your post. And being (among other things) an educator with emphasis on technical training, I had to chime in.

And if you had ever engaged in an apprenticeship, you would understand that “hands on training” can be just as challenging as classroom-based training. Only in the classroom you can’t really screw up some explosion-proof conduit job and have to re-do it, including the expense of replacing the custom bent conduit you did wrong.

So please clarify “what you said” in terms that illuminate me (and others) as to what you actually meant, in contrast to what your words seemed to convey.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
 
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