[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

"Maybe it's coincidence, but religion figured prominently in recent national news stories about shooting incidents. Terry Ratzmann, the Wisconsin gunman who last month went on a shooting rampage, regularly attended services at the Living Church of God in Brookfield, Wis. "We believe that the motive has something to do with the church and the church services more so than any other possible motive," the Associated Press quoted a Brookfield police captain as saying."

http://news.com.com/If+video+games+k...4131&subj=news

[budster101]

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
"Maybe it's coincidence, but religion figured prominently in recent national news stories about shooting incidents. Terry Ratzmann, the Wisconsin gunman who last month went on a shooting rampage, regularly attended services at the Living Church of God in Brookfield, Wis. "We believe that the motive has something to do with the church and the church services more so than any other possible motive," the Associated Press quoted a Brookfield police captain as saying."

http://news.com.com/If+video+games+k...4131&subj=news

Dude, his imbalance had more to do with anything. Religion has as much part in what he did, as what he ate for breakfast, or what the Muslum religion has to do with terrorism.

Nothing.

BTW: Did you read about the so-called church? They held mass in a HOTEL, and they believed in the end of the world being near...

People use religion to sway others to do their bidding. That does not impeach religion per se, but those that manipulate the words of religious text to take advantage of the unbalanced or those seeking answers to their lives and are desperate for someone to follow.

[bubblewrap]

Use Koran in the place of Bible and you may have a point.

[von Wrangell]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
Use Koran in the place of Bible and you may have a point.

dumdirum dirum.......

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered."

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

Jesus telling his apostles to kill those who reject him?

"I am the vine; you are the branches. _ If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing._ If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away an withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned._ (John 15:5-6)"

"And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. _They should pelt them to death with stones. _Their own blood is upon them."

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. _ I will strike her children dead._ Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)"

Isn't killing her children just because she committed adultery going just a bit overboard?

"Do not suppose that I [Jesus] have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword._ (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 10:34)"

[BoomStick]

Your post was like the energizer bunny of stupid.

[von Wrangell]

Originally posted by BoomStick:
Your post was like the energizer bunny of stupid.

So you don't think people could use these verses to do horrible things? Well, that's your problem not mine.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by BoomStick:
Your post was like the energizer bunny of stupid.

It's annoying when people post out of context verses from religious texts isn't it?

Well, in keeping with the tradition here - is that all you can say? Can't you explain the verses?

Maybe they're correct after all then.

[von Wrangell]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
It's annoying when people post out of context verses from religious texts isn't it?

Well, in keeping with the tradition here - is that all you can say? Can't you explain the verses?

Maybe they're correct after all then.

[BoomStick]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
It's annoying when people post out of context verses from religious texts isn't it?

Well, in keeping with the tradition here - is that all you can say? Can't you explain the verses?

Maybe they're correct after all then.

Yes my quotes from satan's koran are correct after all.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by von Wrangell:

She talking about you dude.

SWF, where are you? You start a thread and abandone it? Have you no comment on what others have said here?

Your record is skipping again.

[von Wrangell]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
She talking about you dude.

Really Einstein?

For the record. I'm not bashing Christianity. I'm showing that you can always find some verses that without the context or understanding of the true message sound violent or disgusting.

I just showed Boomstick that it wouldn't take too long to find verses like these in the Holy Bible.

I'm just showing the hypocrisy of some comments you hear everyday about Islam being an evil religion while Christianity is all about peace and forgiveness.

And for the record. I don't believe Jesus ever said such disgusting things. Jesus was a prophet of God and a messenger of peace. Not this twisted version that you can find in parts of the Holy Bible.

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by von Wrangell:
**BLAH BLAH BLAH***

And for the record. I don't believe Jesus ever said such disgusting things. Jesus was a prophet of God and a messenger of peace. Not this twisted version that you can find in parts of the Holy Bible.

You truly don't understand allegory or parables if you believe that.

Jesus claimed to be God. Part of the Trinity.

Besides, this thread is lame as per SWF's usual broken record, insecure, Christianity bashing, threads always are.

Many of us are still waiting for answers from the mods as to why he isn't banned for starting such troll flame-baiting.

[von Wrangell]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
You truly don't understand allegory or parables if you believe that.

Jesus claimed to be God. Part of the Trinity.

Besides, this thread is lame as per SWF's usual broken record, insecure, Christianity bashing, threads always are.

Many of us are still waiting for answers from the mods as to why he isn't banned for starting such troll flame-baiting.

Since you obviously understand it so much better than me, could you perhaps take the time to explain a few of the verses above to me?

And I actually think it's an interesting topic. The question posed is a legitimate one IMO.

[Zimphire]

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by von Wrangell:
Since you obviously understand it so much better than me, could you perhaps take the time to explain a few of the verses above to me?

I'm sorry. I won't do that over an impersonal forum. I would only do something like that face to face. It loses too much otherwise. I think Macnstein would do a great job if you'd care to ask him though.

Besides, I am beginning to limit my time on here as it seems to be an utter complete waste of time. Well, not complete waste of time as there are still a very few cool people still on here. But very few.

Originally posted by von Wrangell:
And I actually think it's an interesting topic. The question posed is a legitimate one IMO.

The original poster doesn't. Why do you think he hasn't been back? It was flame baiting troll material from him. His usual M.O.

[budster101]

Duh.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
Jesus claimed to be God. Part of the Trinity.

Could you point out where Christ said that he was "part of the trinity"?

[Zimphire]

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html

[jbartone]

Funny how he doesn't mention how the Bible saved the life of Ashley Smith and got Brian Nichols to turn himself in.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html

T-R-I-N-I-T-Y
Your link makes no mention of such a thing

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Could you point out where Christ said that he was "part of the trinity"?

In these verses He claims to be "God's Son." And the "Son" is part of the Trinity.

If you are looking for a verse where Jesus says "I am one-third of the Trinity", then you win. It's not in the Bible.

"Trinity" is a word used today be theologians to explain the "three in one" subject. How God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
If you are looking for a verse where Jesus says "I am one-third of the Trinity", then you win. It's not in the Bible.

"Trinity" is a word used today be theologians to explain the "three in one" subject. How God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

That is indeed my point. The Bible does not claim that Christ, the Christian god and the "Holy Spirit" are one being; that is merely a human interpretation. It is even debatable whether, according to the Bible, Christ was any more "one with God" than any other Christian

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
That is indeed my point. The Bible does not claim that Christ, the Christian god and the "Holy Spirit" are one being; that is merely a human interpretation. It is even debatable whether, according to the Bible, Christ was any more "one with God" than any other Christian

Well, your point is wrong. Here's where it is stated in the Bible. BTW: the Bible was only written to be interpreted by humans. I have been trying, but my dogs and cats have no interest in reading at all, let alone interpreting the Bible. Anything is debatable. It's just that one side is usually wrong.

Read the first chapter of the book of John:

John 1

The Deity of Jesus Christ
___1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

___2He was in the beginning with God.

___3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

___4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

___5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John
___6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.

___7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

___8He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

___9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

___10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

___11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

___12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

___13)who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Flesh
___14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

___15John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

___16For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

___17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

___18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Complete chapter One here

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
Well, your point is wrong. Here's where it is stated in the Bible. BTW: the Bible was only written to be interpreted by humans. I have been trying, but my dogs and cats have no interest in reading at all, let alone interpreting the Bible. Anything is debatable. It's just that one side is usually wrong.

[quoted scripture]

There is no mention in that quoted scripture referring to anything that could be interpreted as a "trinity". There isn't even mention of the Holy Spirit.

More often than one side being wrong in debates, both sides are wrong. Truth often exists in the middle, though it can be difficult to see the middle without seeing the extremes

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
There is no mention in that quoted scripture referring to anything that could be interpreted as a "trinity". There isn't even mention of the Holy Spirit.

That section of the Bible I quoted showed how the bible states that Jesus is God. God is referred to as our "Father" in other parts of the Bible. God also has a Spirit.

Hence we get the Trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He does His will with these three parts of being God. You have to take the whole Bible into context. You can't point to a single verse and explain the trinity. As I explained in this post.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
You can't point to a single verse and explain the trinity.

Exactly

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Exactly

Huh?!! What's your point? You can't really point to a single verse and explain anything theologically. The Bible's meaning wasn't written to be broken up sentence by sentence. It is all about context.

Maybe you are expecting Christianity to be simple and easy to understand. You would be sadly mistake to think that. Many people study the Bible their whole life and still feel like their understanding is less than they would like. Universities exist to teach the Bible. If you still expect the Trinity to be explained with a single verse, then you are a complete moron. And I am done with this discussion.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
Huh?!! What's your point? You can't really point to a single verse and explain anything theologically. The Bible's meaning wasn't written to be broken up sentence by sentence. It is all about context.

Maybe you are expecting Christianity to be simple and easy to understand. You would be sadly mistake to think that. Many people study the Bible their whole life and still feel like their understanding is less than they would like. Universities exist to teach the Bible. If you still expect the Trinity to be explained with a single verse, then you are a complete moron. And I am done with this discussion.

I'm only saying that the concept of the trinity is an interpretation of the teachings of the Bible and therefore shouldn't be referred to as something which is expressly stated by the Bible.

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I'm only saying that the concept of the trinity is an interpretation of the teachings of the Bible and therefore shouldn't be referred to as something which is expressly stated by the Bible.

You have done no such thing.

Your original post in this thread was a horrible example of taking verses in the Bible out of context. And then you said "Jesus was a prophet of God and a messenger of peace". And I pointed out how He claimed to be the Messiah, Savior, and God of man. And then you went into a tangent about the Trinity.

Quit taking things out of context. And just admit you don't agree with the theological concept of the Trinity.

EDIT: Edited an editing mistake.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
Your original post in this thread was a horrible example of taking verses in the Bible out of context. And then you said "Jesus was a prophet of God and a messenger of peace".

Could you point out where I said that or posted any Biblical scripture?

Originally posted by Kilbey:
And just admit you don't agree with the theological concept of the Trinity.

I thought that was obvious?

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Could you point out where I said that or posted any Biblical scripture?

I am sorry, I made a mistake and confused you with von Wrangell. My only defense is that I am tired and had a long day. But it's no excuse.

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I thought that was obvious?

I can be dense sometimes.

But this is where I think you are being purposfully dense. Here you asked where Jesus said He was part of the Trinity. I explained that the concept of the Trinity is a theological one. I gave evidence in the Bible from John that the Bible states that God and Jesus are one. And later in the Bible it states God has a Spirit. Hence God, Jesus, and the Spirit are one. Theologically we call this the "Trinity". Sure, you can say Jesus never claimed to be part of the Trinity. He also never denied it. He couldn't claim to be part because it wasn't a term used back then to explain the concept of God being three-in-one.

If you don't accept that then I guess we simply disagree.

BTW: Where is SWF? He starts this thread and never comes back. I know he's in the lounge because he has had a few posts since starting this thread. Just another case of fly-by Christian bashing at it's worst.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Could you point out where I said that or posted any Biblical scripture?



I thought that was obvious?

That there being a trinity is a logical human deduction of Sacred Scripture. If Jesus Christ is God, then there

There is one God, and no other God:

De 6:4 Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
Is 45:5.22 with the exception of me there is no God.

Now God is often given the title 'Lord' and so is Jesus Christ:

De 10:17 Jehovah is Lord of lords
Rev 17:14, 19:16 Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of lords.

The parallel is strikingly obvious.

Jesus Christ is not subordinate to Father as the Watchtower claims. Jesus Christ, the Son, is Equal to the Father, in all circumstances. From this quote from Titus, one infers that not only is Jesus Christ Saviour, but is a 'manifestation of the great God', implying a person of God. Jesus Christ is God but he is not inferior, as it is suggested by 1 Corinthians 15:28.

1 Corinthians 15:28 �when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One�
Titus 2:13 we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of Savior of us, Jesus Christ.

The instances in which the word 'God', 'Jesus', 'Christ', 'Saviour' and 'Lord' are all too numerous for it to be coincidental. Most famously of all, St. Thomas exclaimed "My Lord and my God!" when seeing Jesus risen from the dead. Jesus Christ is referred to as Lord in the same way God was seen as Lord.

Jesus Christ is also like God being 'the first and the last' like God. If Jesus was 'first', then He could not be a created being, he must be God. This passage contradicts the Watchtower teaching that Jesus Christ is a created being.

Is 44:6,8 Jehovah says "I am the first and I am the last"
Rev 2:8 the First and the Last, who became dead and came to life again (Jesus)

The most definitive evidence in the Bible of Jesus' divinity is His statement of 'ego eimi' (I am) numerously quoted in the Gospel of John. 'I am' is the unmentionable name of God. It was God who said to Moses when in the flaming bush "ego eimi o (omega)n" (I am being). "I am" signifies the very essence of God. "eimi", used in a timeless sense, contrasts with the Greek verb "ginomai", used in a temporal sense (used in Modern Greek in sense of 'become', however that is not precisely the meaning in Koine Greek). 'ego eimi' is an unnatural Koine Greek expression rarely used within Greek without some sort of complementation. Rather it is a Hebrew expression thus should be read as so. For the Hebrews, the correlation to the flaming bush would be quite obvious. It is in this way 'ego eimai' should translate 'I am existence'. Similar claims to divinity are made in various other verses in John. Jesus' constant use of 'ego eimi' reinforces Hebrews 1:3.

John 18:6: When he said to them, "I AM," they turned away and fell to the ground.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 8:16 I am not alone, but it is I and the Father who sent me
He 1:3 (Jesus is) the exact representation of his very being (God)

EDIT: Greek doesn't seem to work. Using Roman characters instead.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by undotwa:
That there being a trinity is a logical human deduction of Sacred Scripture. If Jesus Christ is God, then there

But, Christ and God are only two elements. At best, your quoted scripture only provides evidence of a Duality rather than a Trinity (though, the other possible interpretation to your text other than God and Christ being one is that God and Christ are two equal gods).

What is the scriptural evidence of the third element to this Trinity?

[undotwa]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
But, Christ and God are only two elements. At best, your quoted scripture only provides evidence of a Duality rather than a Trinity (though, the other possible interpretation to your text other than God and Christ being one is that God and Christ are two equal gods).

No that can't be true. As one of the quotes I provided stated that there was only one God. Therefore if Jesus Christ was to be God, he would have to be the same God, and at least a physical manifestation of Him.

What is the scriptural evidence of the third element to this Trinity?

A quick google:

http://www.adishakti.org/text_files/holy_spirit.htm

Now the Lord is that Spirit: And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Corinthians 3:17

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

I thought the point is that many parts of the bible tell you to kill sinners.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
I thought the point is that many parts of the bible tell you to kill sinners.

The point is to take it within context, not out of context so you can complain dishonestly about petty things.

[Dimethyltrypt]

The Clergymen have always been honest, hard working faithful people.

Like the white clergymen who said Luther King was being untimely and criticized his peaceful communist actions?

And yes they killed muslims, so what? It's in the PAST. I mean HUH-LOOOO?


stop talking against christianity... you sore crying babies.
you should listen to great christians like Zimphire here or Kilbey.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:

you should listen to great christians like Zimphire here or Kilbey.

Ha ha ha

Good one!

[von Wrangell]

Can someone explain to me this one thing.

If Jesus and God are the same, why did Jesus talk to God? As well as "Father, why have you forsaken me" or something to that effect on the cross.

Just curious.

[ebuddy]

Originally posted by von Wrangell:
Can someone explain to me this one thing. If Jesus and God are the same, why did Jesus talk to God? As well as "Father, why have you forsaken me" or something to that effect on the cross. Just curious.

This is actually a very good question Von. God is always God, Jesus an aspect of God's entity is only as such in the flesh. Two different relationships borne out of need for Creation's salvation. The prospect of a "Trinity" has confounded many, but suffice it to say It is clear that OT sacrifice was no longer adequate for atonement of sin. The Holy Spirit (the third aspect of God's entity) was among mankind prior to Jesus, but not within mankind's hearts until Jesus' death. (more accurately, the Pentacost) The Holy Spirit in mankind is a sign of God's relationship with man. A relationship that changed with the birth of Jesus; God in the flesh. In short (and I mean as short as I can be and still give a complete answer) There are two schools of thought on this matter;
1) "God cannot look upon sin." There was no man without sin. God needed fellowship with man. The only way for God to have fellowship with man is to come to earth in the flesh. He did so using a relationship His Creation would understand and could embrace-a Father, Son relationship. There are several instances in the Bible that Jesus was unique in the sense that he was without sin in a world surrounded and controlled by it, further establishing Jesus' place as a deity as again, no man was without sin. The age of animal sacrifice and it's inadequacy to atone for sin, made a more perfect sacrifice necessary. Jesus. Jesus, as God in the flesh had to become fully flesh. That is to say, needed to feel pain and abandonment. Many say an example of this feeling of abandonment was "Why have You forsaken me?" and cite this as merely an example of the level of sacrifice undertook by God in the flesh. That, just prior to death Jesus had indeed absorbed the sin of all mankind and as such was abandoned by God, was separate from God and the utterance exemplified this abandonment as God could not look upon sin. There is no doubt in reading the New Testament, that Jesus felt pain and even felt abandonment, but did he ever feel abandoned by God?
2) While much of the first school of thought is accurate, there is a point of "duality", but not on the cross and certainly not that God had ever abandoned God/Jesus/Himself. I believe the duality is illustrated in Matt. 26:39. "O My Father, let this cup pass from me..." showing that Jesus in fact knew who He was, and what was going to happen to Him. The second school of thought is the one I believe to be more accurate; "God cannot look upon sin" actually means simply God cannot approve of any sin. Jesus, losing faith in God even at the sacrifice on the cross would've equated to sin. We know this is not possible from a "sinless" Jesus. Jesus was simply quoting the very first verse of Psalms 22 while on the cross. Why? Quoting only the first verse of a chapter was common at the time, to reference a Psalm as they had not yet been numbered. Jesus quoted the first verse of Psalms 22, not in talking to God, but to remind the people there (and us) that Jesus was in fact who He said He was. His death and the following accounts of this Psalm22 in which his clothes were divided etc... was in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy as viewed by David's Psalm given before Jesus' birth which in full context reads;

_1) My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?_Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning? 2) O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer;and by night, but find no rest. 3) Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. 4) In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them. 5) To you they cried, and were saved; in you they trusted, and were not put to shame. 6) But I am a worm, and not human; scorned by others, and despised by the people. 7) All who see me mock at me;they make mouths at me, they shake their heads; 8) "Commit your cause to the LORD; let him deliver - let him rescue the one in whom he delights!" 9) Yet it was you who took me from the womb; you kept me safe on my mother's breast. 10) On you I was cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me you have been my God. 11) Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near and there is no one to help. 12) Many bulls encircle me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me; 13) they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. 14) I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast; 15) my mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 _For dogs are all around me;a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled; 17) I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me; 18) they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots. 19) But you, O LORD, do not be far away!
O my help, come quickly to my aid! 20) Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog! 21) Save me from the mouth of the lion! From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescuedd me. 22} I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you: 23) You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him; stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel! 24) For he did not despise or abhor the affliction of the afflicted he did not hide his face from me, but heard when I cried to him. 25) From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him. 26) The poorh shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD. May your hearts live forever! 27) All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him. 28) For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29)__To him, indeed, shall all who sleep ink the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and I shall live for him. 30) Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord. 31) and may proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, saying that he has done it.

To summarize, the question you ask is not Jesus talking to God, but Jesus quoting scripture to the spectators of his death in establishing for them that He was who He said He was in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

[ebuddy]

Originally posted by von Wrangell:
dumdirum dirum.......
various quotes on slavery

Fact of the matter is that Jesus taught we are to all be like slaves to have complete freedom. It is often thought that the Greco-Roman freeing of multitudes of slaves from 200 to 400 AD was the direct result of Christian influence. Many slaves were prisoners of war. Some argue the treatment of POW's today is worse than what the Bible supposedly "calls for" even in the OT. The remainder of them were simply poor and were to be treated with the respect called for the poor in the OT. They were to be like family members. They held prominent positions in services. They were also to be returned to their homeland and allowed complete freedom after a time. This was not so in many cases and was in direct conflict with the teaching of Scripture. The Bible should not be viewed in this manner as accepting of the terms of slavery rather a governing of a facet of those times in which slavery was abundant. We live, primarily in a society where this type of economic dichotomy (difference between extreme wealth and extreme poverty) doesn't exist, but it certainly did in those times. Many slaves were doctors and other positions of authority and great respect, but were poor. How difficult it would be to be in both power and servitude? Many did not respect their masters in accordance with the agreements they made to pay their debts. This is a bad thing and led to many labor problems of that time. In short, most of the references in the Bible regarding slavery are to be viewed as our servitude to our Father in Heaven, the Supernatural explained to the natural in building a proper relationship between the two.

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

With the promise of land in the Old Testament, war was necessary in fulfilling God's will. There is no promise of land in the New Testament and was is not supported for it is not needed to fulfill God's plan. i.e. changing times with changing Globe for a changing people. The good news is Christ's second coming will put an end to war. At one time in history war was necessary to carry God's will, now generally for personal gain or affluence. This will end.

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

These were to be considered as crimes just as any other crime. Changing doctrine for changing times. I'm no scholar of the Old Testament, I can tell you the New Testament is a new doctrine, a New Covenant for a New Civilization.

Jesus telling his apostles to kill those who reject him?
"I am the vine; you are the branches. _ If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing._ If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away an withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned._ (John 15:5-6)"

This reminds me of when the disciples asked Jesus why he speaks in parables and Jesus answers to the effect of, the blind will not see and those who see will understand. This is an example of your short-sightedness I believe. This is saying that those who do not accept the Lord will perish eternally. In no way is Jesus saying that you should pick up those who do not believe and throw them into a fire. There are no Christians with which I fellowship that understand this passage to mean you are to be physically thrown into a fire. Those who may have done so, did this in spite of New Testament teaching and did this to support a personal will or agenda, not God's.

"And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. _They should pelt them to death with stones. _Their own blood is upon them."

I've been told how rude it is to use resources and not cite them. The below is to be credited for your copy-pastes;
anti-bible cite
Since those who share your line of questioning will not call you to task for it. I will.
These are a basically a host of Biblical passages taken out of context, show complete disregard for the culture of the times and blatent ignorance of the translations from the original text.

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. _ I will strike her children dead._ Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)"

Here Jesus is speaking to the members of a church in Thyatira. There were leadership embracing Jezebel. There is nothing more dangerous to faith than the immoral in places of leadership among the Church. This is Revelations and speaks of wrath to those who support this heresy. This is not calling for man to kill anyone. I believe some (clearly not all) of the horrific enviromental adversity we encounter is due to judgement. In these horrific instances, children also die.

Isn't killing her children just because she committed adultery going just a bit overboard?

Instead of copy-pasting snippets, read the entire chapter. It's clear to me that you have no idea what it is you're copy-pasting and shows a blatent misunderstanding of this passage.

"Do not suppose that I [Jesus] have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword._ (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 10:34)"

If Jesus had said he came the first time to bring peace, wouldn't He have been mistaken knowing all the unrest we have in this world today??? He did not come to bring peace. Jesus did not carry nor bring a "sword". He is referring to the sword of the spirit in this passage relating to Hebrews 4:12; For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
The "sword" of the spirit is also referred to in Ephesians 6:17 relating to the "armor of God"; 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
Just mention the name Jesus in casual conversation and watch the reaction of the people with whom you were talking. You may as well have drawn a sword, or gun. Look at their faces.

[von Wrangell]

I want to thank you ebuddy for good answers. And you are the first to actually (unknowingly?) state my point.

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Those who may have done so, did this in spite of New Testament teaching and did this to support a personal will or agenda, not God's.

This is my point exactly. There are verses in the Bible(and any other religious text) that can be used for personal agendas that completely go against the teachings of the religion.

And because of that we come back to the original post. If there is an argument for video games "making" people kill and commit violence, isn't there also an argument for saying religious texts doing the same? I'll state again. I'm not meaning that the religion does it, but that if you take verses out of context you would be able to "justify" to yourself that you are doing the right thing.

Don't you agree?

[InterfaceGuy]

I completely agree. People twist religion every day to justify their actions. Also, interpretation is why there are so many denominations even inside of one religion.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by ebuddy:

1) My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?_Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning? 2) O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer;and by night, but find no rest. 3) Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. 4) In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them. 5) To you they cried, and were saved; in you they trusted, and were not put to shame. 6) But I am a worm, and not human; scorned by others, and despised by the people. 7) All who see me mock at me;they make mouths at me, they shake their heads; 8) "Commit your cause to the LORD; let him deliver - let him rescue the one in whom he delights!" 9) Yet it was you who took me from the womb; you kept me safe on my mother's breast. 10) On you I was cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me you have been my God. 11) Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near and there is no one to help. 12) Many bulls encircle me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me; 13) they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. 14) I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast; 15) my mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 _For dogs are all around me;a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled; 17) I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me; 18) they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots. 19) But you, O LORD, do not be far away!
O my help, come quickly to my aid! 20) Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog! 21) Save me from the mouth of the lion! From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescuedd me. 22} I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you: 23) You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him; stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel! 24) For he did not despise or abhor the affliction of the afflicted he did not hide his face from me, but heard when I cried to him. 25) From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him. 26) The poorh shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD. May your hearts live forever! 27) All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him. 28) For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29)__To him, indeed, shall all who sleep ink the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and I shall live for him. 30) Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord. 31) and may proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, saying that he has done it.

Some of the pslams just make me cry with emotion. This is probably my favourite pslam, it is so beautiful!. This is very suitable for the time of year which we are approaching.

When I think about what Jesus went through upon the cross, hundreds of years after the composition of this pslam, I cannot help but wonder in awe: Truly Christ is the Son of God!

[undotwa]

Originally posted by von Wrangell:

This is my point exactly. There are verses in the Bible(and any other religious text) that can be used for personal agendas that completely go against the teachings of the religion.

Anything can be used to further one's own agenda. Words mean nothing out of context.

I hear so many people state with fervor that Christianity teaches a different morality from Judaism, oft quoting 'an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth' as their proof. But really, this had nothing to do with revenge - rather it was about reparations!

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
Ha ha ha

Good one!

Actually it was only to you. You guys are just making fools out of yourself, and you don't even realize it. You have added nothing to this at all.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
The Clergymen have always been honest, hard working faithful people.

No, no they haven't. Nor have I said they have. No one is sinless. If you are going to debate, at least do it honestly.

[Zimphire]

DP

[budster101]

I was just thinking about this topic for the amount of time it deserved. 3-6 seconds, and came to the conclusion that if the Bible were indeed made into a video game, a bunch of the people in this thread bashing it, would then be defending it. Think about that for a few seconds.

[ebuddy]

Originally posted by von Wrangell:
I want to thank you ebuddy for good answers. And you are the first to actually (unknowingly?) state my point.

Thank you.

This is my point exactly. There are verses in the Bible(and any other religious text) that can be used for personal agendas that completely go against the teachings of the religion.

I do agree with this, but with some qualification below...

And because of that we come back to the original post. If there is an argument for video games "making" people kill and commit violence, isn't there also an argument for saying religious texts doing the same?

Yes, I'm reminded of the 3 Inquisitions in which religion was used to basically genocide a less than conformist population. In fact, if I recall one such Inquisition was conducted at it's inception because of a growing parish several miles down the road. This growing parish was taking congregants from one church into another. With a waning parish, comes waning funds. They had to establish that the other Church was guilty of heresy and punish it's congregants accordingly . That said; even the Church tried to maintain a position of neutrality during the Inquisitions because it knew that it was being conducted in a "less than Biblical manner". It did so by assigning the dirty deeds to the secular authorities and required them to bring cases before Church leadership for sentencing. Anyone with knowledge of history will tell you the Church was very much behind this injustice.

I'll state again. I'm not meaning that the religion does it, but that if you take verses out of context you would be able to "justify" to yourself that you are doing the right thing.

I completely agree with this statement and have always held that the injustices witnessed under the guise of religion should indict human nature. Human nature will use any mechanism it can to manipulate the masses for personal gain. If most people are religious in a given area, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that religion was used to manipulate the people of that area.

Don't you agree?

Yes, but with some exception. We are comparing the fruits (whether rotten or ripe) of Video Games to Religion. In fairness, let's also look at the merits of each;
Pros of Video Gaming today
- sense of personal accomplishment.
- learning a trade whether it be flying, shooting, or building.
- augmented hand-eye coordination.
in short, the merits of gaming only seem to benefit the one playing and no one else.
Pros of Religion
- scientific advancement in numerous fields
- education; the first major and most influential Universities were religion-based Institutions.
- Creation of hospitals, respite facilities, long-term nursing care, charitable organizations.
- sense of accomplishment not for personal gain, but with the heart of a servant in caring for your neighbor or fellow-man.
- care for the handicapped, and mentally ill.
- missions work to take the gratuity and charity abroad with focus on Global concerns
- alleviation and freedom from the destructive nature of guilt, building mental health
- Providing a way out of a life of crime.
- hinders a life of crime, drug abuse, and violence. Those heavily involved in religion less likely to end up behind bars, alcoholic, drug-addicted, and violent.
- generally productive to society, fostering an environment of intact families, well-mannered and disciplined children.
- music and culture, the most prominent Classical works seemed to stem from deeply rooted religious conviction ranging from those as Beethoven, Handel, Mozart, Haydn to Schubert.
- Most well-known artworks held religious context and imagery; Leonardo da Vinci's The Last Supper depiction and various other religious depictions by da Vinci and countless others.
- Architecture, religion naturally played a key role in rites and rituals with the need for beautiful, extravagant facilities and art in buildings and no doubt has set the standard for beautiful and complex structures.
- I'm sure I could go on another page. Suffice it to say there are many benefits to religion-just taking into account the Judeo-Christian sect, not to mention the various other religions and their contributions to society.


Video gaming when used properly carries the three primary benefits mentioned above, under it's "Pros" while properly using religion carries far more merit to society. If one involves, wholly dedicates, and educates one's self exclusively to gaming there is some benefit for the individual, but for the one who wholly dedicates, adheres to, and educates one's self to religion, the benefit can be for many!