[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Uncle Skeleton:
"How do you feel about the starvation, poverty and slaughter of brown people who have no teams of lawyers to change US laws to try to keep them alive? Do they contain the same spark of the divine?"

I think that this much attention and media coverage over one person versus all the miserables of this Earth who have none of that attention is of the utmost obscenity.

So much for "working on the side of Life".

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
What is truly unbelievable to me is that you manage consistently to find the most misleading websites and as a result write one message after the other misrepresenting the facts. I tentatively conclude that it can't be random. You apparently took the time to look it up so you must have run into other information... but I if I had to guess I would say that the International Task Force web site strikes again?

Paul Brophy died of Pneumonia after treatment -feeding, hydrating and the provision of medicine- was stopped on the request of his wife and in accordance with his own previously expressed wishes. Paul Brophy was a Catholic. His death did not in any way resemble the emotional and exaggerated "prediction" -of what [Likely] would be the results of the cessation of feeding and hydrating- given prior to his actual death by the dissenting judge.

Paul Brophy died on October 23, 1986. Mass murder of the disabled was not the result. Euthanasia was not what "killed" him. Legalizing euthanasia was not the result.

Medical evidence and personal observations of family and friends suggest that like Terri Schiavo, Paul Brophy was not aware of anything in the last years of his life anymore than in the last minutes.

In the Netherlands the body of Terri Schiavo would probably not have been sustained in a persistent vegetative state by artificial feeding tube for 15 years. You are comparing apples and oranges by citing that country's requirements for Euthanasia (The administration of lethal drugs for the express purpose of ending life on the request of a patient by someone else) on the one hand and comparing that to stopping -or never starting- unwanted or non beneficial medical treatment on the other hand.

According to a 2003 press release from the CBS (Dutch Central Bureau of Statistics) euthanasia as specifically defined above was the cause of death in 2.5% of the registered deaths in the Netherlands. 43% of all deaths in the Netherlands involved some sort of medical decision. Clearly euthanasia -as defined above- is not the preferred medical method of "allowing" death in the Netherlands either. Food, water, air and medicine are often withheld there as well.

Are you interested in a serious discussion of the differences in these two separate but related decision making processes? Are you interested in a serious comparative review of the medical and legal policies, in the Netherlands and the United States, on end of life decision making in particular and medical care in general? Either in this thread, the restart of an old one on that specific topic or in a completely new one. Serious question. Are you?

I didn't really think so either but just in case...

The Dutch law that really applies in a situation comparable to that of Terri Schiavo, if she were in the Netherlands today, is the "Act of 17 November 1994 amending the Civil Code and other legislation in connection with the incorporation of provisions concerning the contract to provide medical treatment"

Under Part 5. Medical Treatment Contracts, we find:

Article 465 (3) If a patient who has attained the age of majority and who cannot be deemed capable of making a reasonable assessment of his interests in the matter is not under guardianship, the care provider shall fulfil the obligations to the patient arising from this part in respect of the person who is authorised in writing to act on the patient's behalf. If there is no such person or if he does not act, the obligations shall be fulfilled in respect of the spouse or other partner of the patient, unless the latter refuses, or, if there is no such person, in respect of a parent, child, brother or sister of the patient."
Translation Source: Link

No written will required for the refusal or cessation of medical treatment.

The Euthanasia law and its requirements you cited do not apply to a PVS patient who refuses further medical treatment in the Netherlands.

[ironknee]

Originally posted by deej5871:
Actually it would have made a difference to me; but I agree, let's move on.

cool, i apologize if i offended.

[nredman]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
I think that this much attention and media coverage over one person versus all the miserables of this Earth who have none of that attention is of the utmost obscenity.

So much for "working on the side of Life".

indeed

[InterfaceGuy]

Agents of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement told police in Pinellas Park, the small town where Schiavo lies at Hospice Woodside, that they were on the way to take her to a hospital to resume her feeding.

For a brief period, local police, who have officers around the hospice to keep protesters out, prepared for what sources called a showdown.

In the end, the state agents and the Department of Children and Families backed down, apparently concerned about confronting local police outside the hospice.

"We told them that unless they had the judge with them when they came, they were not going to get in," said a source with the local police.

Fla. officials' attempt, fail to seize Schiavo

[alphasubzero949]

I'm not reading 29 pages of this. Someone care to provide Cliff Notes of the incessant bickering?

[Luca Rescigno]

Random MacNN member: "Terri Schiavo is essentially brain dead."
Cody Dawg: "No she's not! Prove it!"
Random MacNN member: "According to these CAT scans, Terri Schiavo is completely incapable of conscious thought."
Cody Dawg: "Life is sacred! You can't prove anything! How do you know she won't wake up tomorrow and start talking?"
Random MacNN member: "There are parts of her brain physically missing. It is simply not possible."
Cody Dawg: "Now they want to STARVE her to death! OH NOES CRUELTY!!!"
Random MacNN member: "..."

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally posted by alphasubzero949:
I'm not reading 29 pages of this. Someone care to provide Cliff Notes of the incessant bickering?

Safari -> Services -> Summarize

[Cody Dawg]

I hope you're all having a nice evening.

I have decided that I do not have enough information to decide about this issue one way or another. In other words, I do not know if Terri would have wanted to live or not.

One thing I do know?

Michael Schiavo is a scumbag. He will not let her parents visit Terri when they want to. He lets them visit for 15 minutes per day, each. That's it. Then he's going to take her body and cremate it and put it someplace where her parents can never go to grieve and pray and find closure.

That makes him a pathetic human being.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I hope you're all having a nice evening.

I have decided that I do not have enough information to decide about this issue one way or another. In other words, I do not know if Terri would have wanted to live or not.

One thing I do know?

Michael Schiavo is a scumbag. He will not let her parents visit Terri when they want to. He lets them visit for 15 minutes per day, each. That's it. Then he's going to take her body and cremate it and put it someplace where her parents can never go to grieve and pray and find closure.

That makes him a pathetic human being.

Or a protector from the abuse her parents inflicted on her body over the last few court sessions.

[Sir Arthur Dent]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I do not have enough information to decide about this issue one way or another.

Funny how everyone else realized this twenty pages before you did.

[Vi0]

I really resent the news media for turning this situation into the leading story. The news is no longer the news. It's now the Terry Shiavo News.

A black man who made a six figure salary at HP rapes people and kills a federal judge and 3 other people, saying he is a "warrior for his people" and we don't hear peep about it.

I'm convinced that the established news media is 100% controlled and is practically worthless in today's environment. You simply are bombarded with stupid crap like this Shiavo stuff.

[bstone]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I have decided that I do not have enough information to decide about this issue one way or another.

Michael Schiavo is a scumbag.

Sure sounds like passing judgement to me. Which one is it, Cody?

[Arty50]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Michael Schiavo is a scumbag. He will not let her parents visit Terri when they want to. He lets them visit for 15 minutes per day, each. That's it. Then he's going to take her body and cremate it and put it someplace where her parents can never go to grieve and pray and find closure.

That makes him a pathetic human being.

From CNN.com:

He said Schiavo's breathing has been regular and that her death doesn't appear "imminent." He said that Schiavo's remains would be cremated and interred in a family plot in Pennsylvania, where she and her husband grew up.

Felos said that Michael Schiavo has been at his wife's bedside around the clock, except when her other family members want to visit.

Hmmmm...I think I'm more inclined to believe CNN. Wanna back up your assertions Cody? Can you provide a more reliable news source than some fanatic/fundamentalist site?

So far you've only posted a lot of misinformation. From what I've been able to gather from reliable sources, he seems like a pretty upstanding and caring individual. Her parents don't seem to want you to think that though. That probably has absolutely nothing to do with the legal battle. If you can't fault the process, fault the man.

[deej5871]

Originally posted by ironknee:
cool, i apologize if i offended.

Accepted.

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
Random MacNN member: "Terri Schiavo is essentially brain dead."
Cody Dawg: "No she's not! Prove it!"
Random MacNN member: "According to these CAT scans, Terri Schiavo is completely incapable of conscious thought."
Cody Dawg: "Life is sacred! You can't prove anything! How do you know she won't wake up tomorrow and start talking?"
Random MacNN member: "There are parts of her brain physically missing. It is simply not possible."
Cody Dawg: "Now they want to STARVE her to death! OH NOES CRUELTY!!!"
Random MacNN member: "..."

Actually the parts before the "..." should be repeated about 20 times because that happened on about every page. Then we all finally went "..."

[Cody Dawg]

I find those comments (in the quote box) offensive, immature, and childish and evidence of a brain that possesses a minimal capacity to empathize and understand.

I did not say any of those things, nor did I say anything approaching such a manner.

I feel terrible for the Schindlers. Imagine how they feel knowing that their daughter - or what is left of their daughter - is slipping away and they will never see her again.

This is a very difficult time for them.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I find those comments (in the quote box) offensive, immature, and childish and evidence of a brain that possesses a minimal capacity to empathize and understand.

I did not say any of those things, nor did I say anything approaching such a manner.

I feel terrible for the Schindlers. Imagine how they feel knowing that their daughter - or what is left of their daughter - is slipping away and they will never see her again.

This is a very difficult time for them.

The Schindlers' will indeed have a hard time. But mostly because they cannot accept the truth: no matter how long you'll feed her, Terri will not come back, and the part that made her Terri is already dead.

[analogika]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I feel terrible for the Schindlers. Imagine how they feel knowing that their daughter - or what is left of their daughter - is slipping away and they will never see her again.

This is a very difficult time for them.

Imagine what her HUSBAND must have gone through in the past years!

[Ω]

[heartless bastard]I think she is going to die on page 27[/heartless bastard]

And before people complain, she IS going to die. It is a matter of time. Reality is a bitch, but that is life.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I find those comments (in the quote box) offensive, immature, and childish and evidence of a brain that possesses a minimal capacity to empathize and understand.

I did not say any of those things, nor did I say anything approaching such a manner.

I feel terrible for the Schindlers. Imagine how they feel knowing that their daughter - or what is left of their daughter - is slipping away and they will never see her again.

This is a very difficult time for them.

If they are Catholic they'll meet in Heaven.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
If they are Catholic they'll meet in Heaven.

There is something wrong with that statment, I believe its the part if they are catholic as if those are the only people that go to heaven. I don't think religion plays any part in who goes to heaven and who dosent.

[ebuddy]

Originally posted by Athens:
There is something wrong with that statment, I believe its the part if they are catholic as if those are the only people that go to heaven. I don't think religion plays any part in who goes to heaven and who dosent.

you've probably keyed in on some sarcasm. I think it's sad that we should joke about such a thing. Regardless of what you think of Michael, Terry, Terry's parents, and siblings the whole thing is just sad. I hope they can all get on with life and enjoy a blessed life indeed.

I like to think that there's a lesson in issues like this. For this case in particular, I think I'll take away a desire to enjoy and be more thankful for what I do have. Afterall, this is all very temporal anyway.

[SubGeniux]

I thought that only those who worshipped the big banana in the sky go to heaven?

[Athens]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
you've probably keyed in on some sarcasm. I think it's sad that we should joke about such a thing. Regardless of what you think of Michael, Terry, Terry's parents, and siblings the whole thing is just sad. I hope they can all get on with life and enjoy a blessed life indeed.

I like to think that there's a lesson in issues like this. For this case in particular, I think I'll take away a desire to enjoy and be more thankful for what I do have. Afterall, this is all very temporal anyway.

No joke and no sarcasim, I was 100% serious. I didnt like the "If they are Catholic they'll meet in Heaven" as if only those that are catholic go to heaven.

[Cody Dawg]

Happy Easter everyone.

I hope all of you have a wonderful day with all of your loved ones.

Tell the people that you love that you love them.

[SubGeniux]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:


Tell the people that you love that you love them.

What if they're in a coma, or technically brain-dead? Is it love to let them stay in that condition?

[Athens]

Originally posted by SubGeniux:
What if they're in a coma, or technically brain-dead? Is it love to let them stay in that condition?

Then you say you lvoe them them anyways for yourself and the good feelings it gives you reguardless if they hear it. Besides im sure even a Vegie will feel the love reguardless if they can respond.

[Cody Dawg]

Athens.

You're way cool all of the time.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Athens.

You're way cool all of the time.

If i wasent sooooo tired and just about to leave to go home OH NO SUNDAY BUS SERVICE AAAAAAHHHHH, anyways I would have posted some flowers here for you

[Cody Dawg]

Big hugs to you, Sweetie.

XOXO



Good kind people like you are the ones that make the world go around.

[jamil5454]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread (didn't feel like reading 23+ pages), but my theory is this:

The brain is logically divided into two parts: conscious and subconscious. The conscious part of our brain is responsible for our awareness, five senses, analyzing, etc. The subconscious part is responsible for our involuntary actions such as digesting food, healing ourself, sleeping, breathing, etc. In Terry's case, the conscious part of her brain is GONE. I also believe this to be the case with all Veggies. This is why Terry can breathe, blink, heck even follow certain things with her eyes. She's doing it all subconsciously.

That said, I believe Terry should die, because basically, she's not aware anymore. She died 15 years ago, when she lost all her awareness. Don't let her subconscious actions fool you into thinking that she can still "feel" things. The conscious andsubconscious are separated, simple as that. Her brain is stuck in a state in half-deadness, and obviously if she didn't have life support she would easily die. Our medical technology is great enough that we can keep a "dead" person alive, and I think this is the main problem. Has there ever been a Veggie that has "woken up"?

Terry is sleeping.

Forever.

[Cody Dawg]

There are a few lessons in this case.

First of all, Terri suffered from an eating disorder. Bulimia. She made herself throw up in order to keep from digesting food.

Does anyone else notice the peculiar irony in the fact that she is now dying because she is not getting food?

I had an eating disorder once. I had anorexia. I didn't eat food at all. I found one of my old food diaries about a month ago and I saw where I had written down: "Lunch: Water. 2 Tablespoons peas. Half slice bread. 60 calories." I had to see a shrink for it for two years. I was modeling and they were always telling us to lose weight. In fact, this particular agency (in Los Angeles - the biggest one and most respected one) had photographers and reps that would give the models nose drops with cocaine in them so that they were happy, addicted, and had no appetite. I never cared for it, but I did develop an eating disorder. I feel badly for Terri and girls like Terri - this is a problem that is more common than people think.

I hope that some attention comes to the fact that Terri GOT this way from an eating disorder and people should take eating disorders seriously.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Big hugs to you, Sweetie.

XOXO



Good kind people like you are the ones that make the world go around.

Sorry, Cody. But the bad, nasty people like me make the world go around too. We ALL make the world go round.

[memory-minus]

Originally posted by Athens:
I didnt like the "If they are Catholic they'll meet in Heaven" as if only those that are catholic go to heaven.

[Hell, waiting area. Many souls are there, wondering where they are, and why.]

Speaker: Hello, newcomers, and welcome. Can everybody hear me? [taps the mic a few times] Hello? Can everybuh-? Okay. [the crowd quiets down] Uh, I'm the hell director. Uh, it looks like we have about 8,615 of you newbies today, and for those of you who are a little confused, uh, you are dead, and this is hell, so, abandon all hope and uh yada yada yada. Uh, we are now going to start the orientation process, which will last about-

Man 1: Hey, wait a minute, I shouldn't be here. I was a totally strict and devout Protestant! I thought we went to heaven!

Hell Director: Yes, well I'm afraid you were wrong.

Man 2: I was a practicing Jehovah's Witness.

Hell director: Uh, you picked the wrong religion as well.

Man 3: Well, who was right? Who gets into heaven?

Hell Director: I'm afraid it was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons were the correct answer.

Crowd: [disappointed] Awww.

[bstone]

Originally posted by Athens:
If i wasent sooooo tired and just about to leave to go home OH NO SUNDAY BUS SERVICE AAAAAAHHHHH, anyways I would have posted some flowers here for you

Yet another example of religious coersion in America.

[SubGeniux]

Originally posted by Athens:
Then you say you lvoe them them anyways for yourself and the good feelings it gives you reguardless if they hear it. Besides im sure even a Vegie will feel the love reguardless if they can respond.

No, my point is, are you showing them "love" by keeping them in a vegetative state?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally posted by Athens:
I don't think religion plays any part in who goes to heaven and who dosent.

the above sentance does not compute..

[Cody Dawg]

This is pure genius!

[Hell, waiting area. Many souls are there, wondering where they are, and why.]

Speaker: Hello, newcomers, and welcome. Can everybody hear me? [taps the mic a few times] Hello? Can everybuh-? Okay. [the crowd quiets down] Uh, I'm the hell director. Uh, it looks like we have about 8,615 of you newbies today, and for those of you who are a little confused, uh, you are dead, and this is hell, so, abandon all hope and uh yada yada yada. Uh, we are now going to start the orientation process, which will last about-

Man 1: Hey, wait a minute, I shouldn't be here. I was a totally strict and devout Protestant! I thought we went to heaven!

Hell Director: Yes, well I'm afraid you were wrong.

Man 2: I was a practicing Jehovah's Witness.

Hell director: Uh, you picked the wrong religion as well.

Man 3: Well, who was right? Who gets into heaven?

Hell Director: I'm afraid it was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons were the correct answer.

Crowd: [disappointed] Awww.

[zerostar]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
This is pure genius

I believe that is South Park.

"Brother Stevens brought his guitar so we can sing songs about how much it hurts to lie." � Mormon guy

[ironknee]

Originally posted by Athens:
Then you say you lvoe them them anyways for yourself and the good feelings it gives you reguardless if they hear it. Besides im sure even a Vegie will feel the love reguardless if they can respond.

kindalike the parents and protesters...they are doing it to make THEM feel better (important) ...not terri

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I find those comments (in the quote box) offensive, immature, and childish and evidence of a brain that possesses a minimal capacity to empathize and understand.

I did not say any of those things, nor did I say anything approaching such a manner.

Yeah! It's totally unfair for someone to imply you keep coming back with the same tired arguments without addressing what other people have said! And just to prove them wrong some more, why don't you finally weigh in on my question about the conservative right's history of fighting for lost-cause white people while at the same time ignoring, starving and outright killing brown people? What makes you want to personally donate $5000 to the cause of a person who will never know it because she has no consciousness, and not to millions of others that have brains but no food, shelter or medicine?

[bstone]

Cody and others are trying to buy out Michael Schiavo's love for his wife.

You can't buy love, Cody. You should know that.

[goMac]

Originally posted by bstone:
Cody and others are trying to buy out Michael Schiavo's love for his wife.

You can't buy love, Cody. You should know that.

[ebuddy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Athens:
No joke and no sarcasim, I was 100% serious. I didnt like the "If they are Catholic they'll meet in Heaven" as if only those that are catholic go to heaven. [/QUOTE
no,no I meant what's his face's post was meant in sarcasm. I think it was an offhand insult to faith in general. Not sure, but that's what I read from it.

[macintologist]

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
Random MacNN member: "Terri Schiavo is essentially brain dead."
Cody Dawg: "No she's not! Prove it!"
Random MacNN member: "According to these CAT scans, Terri Schiavo is completely incapable of conscious thought."
Cody Dawg: "Life is sacred! You can't prove anything! How do you know she won't wake up tomorrow and start talking?"
Random MacNN member: "There are parts of her brain physically missing. It is simply not possible."
Cody Dawg: "Now they want to STARVE her to death! OH NOES CRUELTY!!!"
Random MacNN member: "..."

Exhibit A: This my friends is what we call a Freudian projection

[His Dudeness]

Originally posted by bstone:
Cody and others are trying to buy out Michael Schiavo's love for his wife.

You can't buy love, Cody. You should know that.

That's assuming he really does love his wife...

[ghporter]

Originally posted by ironknee:
kindalike the parents and protesters...they are doing it to make THEM feel better (important) ...not terri

Excellent point! This is something grief counselors work with all the time. The patient may be resigned and ready to go, but the family demands more be done-usually painfully invasive procedures that have no chance of doing much more than costing more money and hurting the patient more.

At least in Terri's case, she isn't there to feel the discomfort. Her brainstem is there, so her body reacts, but Terri is no longer present. That which was Terri departed when her cerebrum was horribly damaged by lack of oxygen years and years ago.

I'm not comparing human life to the life of a cat, but the emotions are the same. I had a cat that we had to put to sleep not too long ago. He'd been with us since 1988, and we all loved him dearly. He got sick and we took him to the vet and did everything we could to get him better. We spent thousands of dollars on a treatment that DID cure his thyroid disease, the only problem we all thought he had. We didn't know, and neither did two different vets, that he also had bladder cancer, which became very aggressive after his treatment. He was still fairly comfortable, except for peeing blood rather frequently, but his bladder was almost completely gone, and the prognosis was a long, slow, excruciating death as the cancer ate him away. We couldn't do that to him, so as painful as it was for us, we asked our vet to ease his passing. He fell asleep softly and gently, and simply went deeper and deeper until he stopped breathing. No extra pain, no long treatments that don't do any good, just sleep. We loved him, and our responsibility in that love was not to put our feelings before his comfort. It still hurts a lot, but it was best for our cat that he didn't hurt any more than he already was.

Sorry if that's too rambling, but as I said, it still hurts. I don't know how well Terri's parents can understand this-with that many years of hoping against demonstrated lack of progress, it's hard to think they can understand it at all-but that's probably what's going on.

I'll shut up now.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by ghporter:
I'll shut up now.

Why? That was one of the most sensitive post of this thread! Keep it up man!

[ironknee]

Originally posted by ghporter:
Excellent point! This is something grief counselors work with all the time. The patient may be resigned and ready to go, but the family demands more be done-usually painfully invasive procedures that have no chance of doing much more than costing more money and hurting the patient more.

At least in Terri's case, she isn't there to feel the discomfort. Her brainstem is there, so her body reacts, but Terri is no longer present. That which was Terri departed when her cerebrum was horribly damaged by lack of oxygen years and years ago.

I'm not comparing human life to the life of a cat, but the emotions are the same. I had a cat that we had to put to sleep not too long ago. He'd been with us since 1988, and we all loved him dearly. He got sick and we took him to the vet and did everything we could to get him better. We spent thousands of dollars on a treatment that DID cure his thyroid disease, the only problem we all thought he had. We didn't know, and neither did two different vets, that he also had bladder cancer, which became very aggressive after his treatment. He was still fairly comfortable, except for peeing blood rather frequently, but his bladder was almost completely gone, and the prognosis was a long, slow, excruciating death as the cancer ate him away. We couldn't do that to him, so as painful as it was for us, we asked our vet to ease his passing. He fell asleep softly and gently, and simply went deeper and deeper until he stopped breathing. No extra pain, no long treatments that don't do any good, just sleep. We loved him, and our responsibility in that love was not to put our feelings before his comfort. It still hurts a lot, but it was best for our cat that he didn't hurt any more than he already was.

Sorry if that's too rambling, but as I said, it still hurts. I don't know how well Terri's parents can understand this-with that many years of hoping against demonstrated lack of progress, it's hard to think they can understand it at all-but that's probably what's going on.

I'll shut up now.

some sanity in this circus...

imagine if we all cared so much for everyone in the world, there would be no need to invade other countries...

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by ironknee:
some sanity in this circus...

imagine if we all cared so much for everyone in the world, there would be no need to invade other countries...

You bet!



I'll drink to that!