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stevesnj · Dec 9, 2007, 06:09 PM

Gunman fatally shot after opening fire in church - CNN.com

Malls, a Missionary, Churches, schools...

I would give up my right to own a gun if it would help stop even us so called 'rightful owners of guns' reduce these types of shootings.

Current enforcement and upholding current gun laws just are not working!

Shaddim · Dec 9, 2007, 06:30 PM

It seems law enforcement isn't effective, so lawful gun owners need to exercise their rights.

Get a CC permit and help protect yourself and your community.

stevesnj · Dec 9, 2007, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

It seems law enforcement isn't effective, so lawful gun owners need to exercise their rights.
Get a CC permit and help protect yourself and your community.

Not a solution...thats just adding to a bad situation.

nonhuman · Dec 9, 2007, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Not a solution...thats just adding to a bad situation.

Based on what? I understand how it's tempting to believe that, but I don't see that logic or actual real-life experience support it in any way.

Uncle Skeleton · Dec 9, 2007, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by nonhuman

Based on what?

How about based on the fact that every one of these stories ends with the gunman shot dead at the scene? Clearly fear of retaliation is not stopping them.

BadKosh · Dec 9, 2007, 07:00 PM

I guess you think Criminals and desperate Jack-Asses will follow the gun bans? Then a knife ban, brick ban, fist ban, baseball bat ban etc etc.

How about a "people filter"? You have to be tested to make sure you're not a loon or nutcase, above a certain age, legally a resident, NOT arrested for violent crimes, a high school grad, and on and on. If you're not willing to verify thru records of birth, legal status and other officially accepted forms of ID or proof of training, or status voluntarily, you shouldn't get such things as a drivers license, gun permit, security jobs etc. The REAL nutcases, flushed out while they attempt to get a drivers license or such get to go right to the loony bin. If most everybody agrees its for the best, it just may make the place safer...and less crowded!

Shaddim · Dec 9, 2007, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

How about based on the fact that every one of these stories ends with the gunman shot dead at the scene? Clearly fear of retaliation is not stopping them.

If I put a bullet in the shooter he may not murder as many people, if any at all.

Doofy · Dec 9, 2007, 07:06 PM

Hi <waves>

Did you know that gun crime has actually increased in the UK since handguns were banned? Criminals, see - they don't tend to take notice of the law.

stevesnj · Dec 9, 2007, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

If I put a bullet in the shooter he may not murder as many people, if any at all.

Become a cop if you want to carry a gun with you at all times. Armed citizens would be a nightmare. Imagine how an unarmed parking spot dispute would be different if one or both persons had a gun.

OldManMac · Dec 9, 2007, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Hi <waves>

Did you know that gun crime has actually increased in the UK since handguns were banned? Criminals, see - they don't tend to take notice of the law.

Hold the roof up - I agree with Doofy!

A corollary of that is that, in U. S. states where citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons, violent crime has gone down. Now, I'm going to sit back, grab a beer and some popcorn, and watch all the armchair quarterbacking from the anti-gun nuts.

OldManMac · Dec 9, 2007, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Become a cop if you want to carry a gun with you at all times. Armed citizens would be a nightmare. Imagine how an unarmed parking spot dispute would be different if one or both persons had a gun.

I knew that was coming. Many states in the U. S. allow concealed weapons permits, and people don't shoot each other because of parking spaces. People who shoot others over parking spaces are emotionally destroyed to begin with and that may have just been the trigger that would have caused them to kill someone; IOW, it wasn't over a parking space, it was over bottled up anger or some other emotion. You might also want to educate yourself on violent crime statistics.

C.A.T.S. CEO · Dec 9, 2007, 07:18 PM

The whole argument of "More guns vs. no guns" is utterly stupid to me.

Instead of changing gun laws, lets get the people who commit these crimes some help before stuff like this happens.

OldManMac · Dec 9, 2007, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by C.A.T.S. CEO

The whole argument of "More guns vs. no guns" is utterly stupid to me.

Instead of changing gun laws, lets get the people who commit these crimes some help before stuff like this happens.

That's much harder, and involves effort and community resources. Most people, falsely, believe it's cheaper to house them in a warehouse somewhere. It also gets them off the public conscience, so we can remain self-absorbed.

stevesnj · Dec 9, 2007, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by OldManMac

.... it wasn't over a parking space, it was over bottled up anger or some other emotion. You might also want to educate yourself on violent crime statistics.

well imagine arguing with someone with bottled up anger or emotion that has a gun. Not something I want to do. I should carry a gun just in case I meet someone like this.

And UK murder rates are up since the gun-ban 10 years ago. But a lot more people are murdered (in the UK) not by guns but more by other methods. But gun violence has increased in the UK due to it's influx of gang and drug activity. Sounds like the USA huh? Maybe you should educate yourself on violent crime statistics also?

nonhuman · Dec 9, 2007, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by stevesnj

well imagine arguing with someone with bottled up anger or emotion that has a gun. Not something I want to do. I should carry a gun just in case I meet someone like this.

How is this relevant? Whether guns are legal or not, people will have them. The difference is that when they're illegal almost all of the people who have them shouldn't. When they're legal, at least you know that some of the people who have guns are going to be reasonable people who won't shoot you for no reason.

No matter what, we all depend on the rationality and reasonableness of other people in society for our own safety. At least when we carry guns we have some means to protect ourselves and others.

And UK murder rates are up since the gun-ban 10 years ago. But a lot more people are murdered (in the UK) not by guns but more by other methods. But gun violence has increased in the UK due to it's influx of gang and drug activity. Sounds like the USA huh? Maybe you should educate yourself on violent crime statistics also?

Again, I don't see your point. You acknowledge that the gun ban has not been successful in reducing gun crime and that gun crime has, in fact, increased since then. What relevance do non-gun-related crimes have to this conversation? And what relevance is it that most of the gun crime that does happen is related to gang and drug activity? I see no logical explanation for why the things you just said would induce someone to do anything other than support gun rights.

RAILhead · Dec 9, 2007, 07:36 PM

Why do gun-haters fail to realize that people who want to kill other people with a gun DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT HAVING A LICENSE TO USE THE GUN? Am I the only person that knows you can buy guns "underground" just like drugs, etc? IF someone wants a gun, and if that person doesn't live in a house that contains one already, that person can still find out how to get a hold of one.

Shaddim · Dec 9, 2007, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Become a cop if you want to carry a gun with you at all times. Armed citizens would be a nightmare. Imagine how an unarmed parking spot dispute would be different if one or both persons had a gun.

Why should I do that? I can legally carry one now without a badge.

Besides, cops are horribly underpaid. I couldn't live on their salaries.

Uncle Skeleton · Dec 9, 2007, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Why do gun-haters fail to realize that people who want to kill other people with a gun DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT HAVING A LICENSE TO USE THE GUN? Am I the only person that knows you can buy guns "underground" just like drugs, etc? IF someone wants a gun, and if that person doesn't live in a house that contains one already, that person can still find out how to get a hold of one.

While I'm not a gun hater, I do understand their position. If guns are illegal, it is easier to crack down on gun distribution systems. Just like if narcotics were legal it would be easier for people to get them, with or without going through legal channels. Also, if guns were illegal, it would be easier for police to identify criminals with guns, because everyone with a gun would automatically be a criminal. In this way they might be able to move against the criminal sooner, by pursuing them for acquiring a gun, rather than having to wait until they use it before reacting. It all boils down to whether you trust the police to do their jobs (wrt competence or morals).

To reword in soundbite form, if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. And cops, outlaws and cops.

So if you distrust cops, you support widespread gun ownership. If you trust cops, you're against widespread gun ownership. Personally, I'm torn about cops, and thus I am also torn about widespread gun ownership.

nonhuman · Dec 9, 2007, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

While I'm not a gun hater, I do understand their position. If guns are illegal, it is easier to crack down on gun distribution systems. Just like if narcotics were legal it would be easier for people to get them, with or without going through legal channels. Also, if guns were illegal, it would be easier for police to identify criminals with guns, because everyone with a gun would automatically be a criminal. In this way they might be able to move against the criminal sooner, by pursuing them for acquiring a gun, rather than having to wait until they use it before reacting. It all boils down to whether you trust the police to do their jobs (wrt competence or morals).

What? This isn't borne out in history at all. How does making guns illegal make it easier for police to crack down on gun distribution? And how does drugs being legal make it easier to get them?

Guns are illegal in many countries. Last I checked all of those countries still have problems with guns. As has been pointed out (either in this thread or the other gun-related one, I don't remember), the UK has seen a rise in gun crime since guns were banned.

Drugs are incredibly easy to get right now. All of them. In many, if not most, situations they're even easier to get than alcohol for people who are under the drinking age. If anything, making them legal would make it harder for them to get because the legal ones could be regulated, but since they're still available there would be less demand for the illegal ones so people wouldn't be producing so much to be sold on the streets.

Uncle Skeleton · Dec 9, 2007, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by nonhuman

What? This isn't borne out in history at all. How does making guns illegal make it easier for police to crack down on gun distribution? And how does drugs being legal make it easier to get them? Drugs are incredibly easy to get right now. All of them. In many, if not most, situations they're even easier to get than alcohol for people who are under the drinking age. If anything, making them legal would make it harder for them to get because the legal ones could be regulated, but since they're still available there would be less demand for the illegal ones so people wouldn't be producing so much to be sold on the streets.

I know this view is wildly popular and attractive, but it is still speculation, and it is still the "alternative" view. Obviously, the powers that be don't agree, otherwise it would be in their ineterest to change the laws. I'm not going to argue it since there is no way to know what "would" happen.

Guns are illegal in many countries. Last I checked all of those countries still have problems with guns. As has been pointed out (either in this thread or the other gun-related one, I don't remember), the UK has seen a rise in gun crime since guns were banned.

I doubt your sources, but regardless, examples of failed implementation do not invalidate the strategy. I wasn't saying I support this, I was just explaining the motivation.

smacintush · Dec 9, 2007, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by stevesnj

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/09/church.shooting/index.html]
Current enforcement and upholding current gun laws just are not working!

It's kinda hard to enforce gun laws when you are too busy worrying about petty drug possession and other senseless crap. The current laws are not enforced properly, how then will NEW laws help? The current laws are ignored by criminals, how then will NEW laws help?

Prohibition of guns or anything else does not work. There is plenty of evidence to show this. Our fantastic government can't keep out illegal immigrants, or illegal smuggling, yet you think that they can magically keep out illegal guns?

The cliché that says "When guns are made criminal then only criminals will have guns" is more than just a cliché. It is borne out time and time again.

Why do you and so many others cover your ears and close your eyes screaming "LA LA LA LA LA" to yourselves on this issue. If you don't like guns or gun violence then that's just great but if prohibition doesn't work, it doesn't work.

This is just like the drug problem. Meth, cocaine, crack, marijuana, LSD, these are all things that although I have never used drugs at all I know that I can go and get these any time I want. Yet, they are illegal. You've got to go and fix the problem of demand at the root and the supply will dry up. (yeah I know, easier said than done)

ThinkInsane · Dec 9, 2007, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Become a cop if you want to carry a gun with you at all times. Armed citizens would be a nightmare. Imagine how an unarmed parking spot dispute would be different if one or both persons had a gun.

I prefer to think of it as an armed society is a polite society.

Chongo · Dec 10, 2007, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Become a cop if you want to carry a gun with you at all times. Armed citizens would be a nightmare. Imagine how an unarmed parking spot dispute would be different if one or both persons had a gun.

This was predicted after the first CCW laws were passed. The envisioned bloodbath never happened.

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

I prefer to think of it as an armed society is a polite society.

peeb · Dec 10, 2007, 04:58 PM

Another victim of Chongo forum-spam!

imitchellg5 · Dec 10, 2007, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Not a solution...thats just adding to a bad situation.

Agreed. If someone wants to kill someone bad enough, they'll find a gun.

Chongo · 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by peeb

Another victim of Chongo forum-spam!

the old proverb says "A picture is worth a thousand words"

Chongo · Dec 10, 2007, 08:17 PM

another of my fave spam

finboy · Dec 10, 2007, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Not a solution...thats just adding to a bad situation.

No, it seems that 15-20 armed church members (out of 7000) were enough to stop the second attack from this bozo. I guess, in theory, the one armed church member was enough.

Chongo · Dec 11, 2007, 09:49 AM

Security Guard: 'God Guided Me And Protected Me' - Denver News Story - KMGH Denver