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Tim2 at Omni · Apr 24, 2004, 09:53 PM

You guys have been really patient, and I think you deserve an update:

The news so far is that most of the caching issues have been resolved. Also, I've been working on a new text renderer which is anywhere from 10% to 1500% faster than our current one (depending on the page being rendered). That's a pretty big deal, considering that text rendering speed is one of the main reasons Safari is faster than OmniWeb on slower, older machines. I'm not sure if this new text renderer is going to be enabled by default in 5.0, but it'll definitely be a hidden preference

Lots of little UI bugs, crashers, hangers, etc. have been fixed, too.

Beta 6 is looking pretty good, and it should be out "soon".

Mike S. · Apr 25, 2004, 12:02 AM

10% -1500%

That's a pretty massive window, where are you more likely to see the larger improvements? Really complex sites with lots of tables? Giant forum lists?

Faster on older hardware == a dream come true :-D

Will this new engine make an appearance in B6 as a hidden pref or will you hold it's intro until release?

Thanks for the update, things are sounding good.

Tim2 at Omni · Apr 25, 2004, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by Mike S.:
10% -1500%

That's a pretty massive window, where are you more likely to see the larger improvements? Really complex sites with lots of tables? Giant forum lists?

Pages with lots of text -- large text files, forums, etc.

Will this new engine make an appearance in B6 as a hidden pref or will you hold it's intro until release?

It'll be in b6 as a hidden preference. I'll let you all know what that preference is after b6 is released.

oVeRmInD911 · Apr 25, 2004, 01:16 AM

As always, I'm very much looking forward to b6. Probably not as much, anymore, though, because b5 has been very, very nice. But a 10-1500% speed increase in text rendering? On slow machines (someone say my name?)? I'm sold.

oVeRmInD911 · Apr 25, 2004, 01:29 AM

Also, I'd just like to say that the OmniTabs on forums are really great. I just drag the topics I want to see to the left, and they open up a new tab in the background. That way I can save all my excess mouse buttons for Expos�.

I know the other browsers do this too, but this is one situation where the bigger space of the OmniTabs is an advantage.

Nice.

F_Elz · Apr 25, 2004, 02:27 AM

Thanks for the gret news Tim

Mike Pither · Apr 25, 2004, 03:47 AM

Tim2 at omni, why are you thinking of making the new text renderer only a hidden preference?

Tim2 at Omni · Apr 25, 2004, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by Mike Pither:
Tim2 at omni, why are you thinking of making the new text renderer only a hidden preference?

Because OmniWeb 5.0 is almost done, and shipping it with a new (and very possibly buggy) text renderer would be a bad idea

. Our old renderer is well-tested, and known to be stable and generally correct.

Mike Pither · Apr 25, 2004, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by Tim2 at Omni:
Because OmniWeb 5.0 is almost done, and shipping it with a new (and very possibly buggy) text renderer would be a bad idea . Our old renderer is well-tested, and known to be stable and generally correct.

Fair enough

BZ · Apr 25, 2004, 07:20 AM

Give us the SPEEEEEEEEEEED!

I just figured out a very useful little trick for OW5 that I would like to share.

I am always on a OmniTab and want to go to my bookmarks (folders, in the top bar) and open some more sites, but I don't want it to go over the site I am on. One way would be to create a new tab, go to it, and select your bookmark. Another and much easier way is to start into the bookmarks and before you choose it hold down the command (apple) key. It will open that bookmark in a new tab.

Bingo.

Remember to hold down the command key AFTER you are in the bookmarks dropdown. If you hold it down before clicking on the folder, it will open everything in a new tab.

This alone has helped my stay with OW longer and longer.

BZ

ratlater · Apr 26, 2004, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by BZ:
Give us the SPEEEEEEEEEEED!

I just figured out a very useful little trick for OW5 that I would like to share.

I am always on a OmniTab and want to go to my bookmarks (folders, in the top bar) and open some more sites, but I don't want it to go over the site I am on. One way would be to create a new tab, go to it, and select your bookmark. Another and much easier way is to start into the bookmarks and before you choose it hold down the command (apple) key. It will open that bookmark in a new tab.

Bingo.

Remember to hold down the command key AFTER you are in the bookmarks dropdown. If you hold it down before clicking on the folder, it will open everything in a new tab.

This alone has helped my stay with OW longer and longer.

BZ

Nice. I think this is new as of the last beta. Before you had to have command held down before you opened the bookmark folder. Thanks for the tip.

-matt

BZ · Apr 26, 2004, 03:54 PM

BTW: Does that speed include the new Webcore or without it?

If text speed + new webcore > safari speed you guys are going to rock!

BZ

Originally posted by Tim2 at Omni:
You guys have been really patient, and I think you deserve an update:

The news so far is that most of the caching issues have been resolved. Also, I've been working on a new text renderer which is anywhere from 10% to 1500% faster than our current one (depending on the page being rendered). That's a pretty big deal, considering that text rendering speed is one of the main reasons Safari is faster than OmniWeb on slower, older machines. I'm not sure if this new text renderer is going to be enabled by default in 5.0, but it'll definitely be a hidden preference

Lots of little UI bugs, crashers, hangers, etc. have been fixed, too.

Beta 6 is looking pretty good, and it should be out "soon".

Tim2 at Omni · Apr 26, 2004, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by BZ:
BTW: Does that speed include the new Webcore or without it?

If text speed + new webcore > safari speed you guys are going to rock!

BZ

We haven't started integrating the new WebCore. That's going to happen immediately after 5.0 ships.

Keep in mind that the 1500% I quoted isn't normal -- I got that number from a very unusual test case. The usual text drawing speedup we're seeing is somewhere around 20%. But that's still pretty significant

JKT · Apr 27, 2004, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by ratlater:
Nice. I think this is new as of the last beta. Before you had to have command held down before you opened the bookmark folder. Thanks for the tip.

-matt

Nope, its been like that since at least beta 2 - I hated it initially as I was so used to doing it the old way from 4.5 that I was continuously opening 20+ bookmarks in one go when I only wanted one specific one. FWIW, this is how it now works in full:

1. Command-click the folder in the favourites bar opens all the bookmarks in that folder in new thumbnails.

2. Command-click and hold the folder in the favourites bar allows you to select an individual bookmark in a new thumbnail (for those occasions where you forget that 1. above is the new way of doing things

).

3. Click the folder and then press command when selecting the bookmark, opens that individual bookmark in a new thumbnail.

Add in the shift key to get it opened in the background.

iNeusch · Apr 27, 2004, 08:09 AM

Couldn't find anything about it here so I guess I'll just ask

When I use omni b5 (I love it...) on my website I get a strange behavior, the page will not scroll, and doesn't show scrollbars.
I guess it must be something withj DIVs but as it works fine in Safari... is it a bug ? is it site related ?

BTW, I trashed all the files from OmniWeb just to be sure it was no a bad setting...

Give it a try here here

Thanks for your help

F_Elz · Apr 27, 2004, 08:37 AM

confirmed....

iNeusch · Apr 27, 2004, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by F_Elz:
confirmed....

thx

larkost · Apr 27, 2004, 09:07 AM

iNeusch: It turns out that it is broken html in the page that is confusing OmniWeb's CSS engine (or so it looks like). As a quick test you can bring up the source view (hit reformat to make it look nice) and change:

Code:
<p>
    <div id="quote">
        From : <a title="MacMinute: Mac News First."  <snip/>
</p>

to:

Code:
<p>
    <div id="quote">
        From : <a title="MacMinute: Mac News First." <snip/>
    </div>
</p>

Then redisplay...

This will not completely fix the problem (as they have the same problem further down... and a bunch of mis-nested <p>'s), but it is enought to prove the concept. My guess is that this is actually a WebCore issue, but might be worked around in the version included in Safari 1.2.

Ultimately it is simply bad html. You should put it through a validator, and you will see this sort of error.

iNeusch · Apr 27, 2004, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by larkost:
iNeusch: It turns out that it is broken html in the page that is confusing OmniWeb's CSS engine (or so it looks like).

Strange, seems to be related to the way MovableType parses the code to add line breaks...

iNeusch · Apr 27, 2004, 02:03 PM

OK...
I fixed the <p> problem on my website... should be a lot better now.

Still doesn't work with OmniWeb

larkost · Apr 27, 2004, 10:18 PM

Ok.. now it looks like a solid bug, and I am not sure if it WebCore, or the Omni portions of the code, but it looks to be related to the "position: relative;" for the "#wrap" div.

torifile · Apr 27, 2004, 10:48 PM

I'll admit that I haven't been following all 500 replies to this thread (sue me

), so maybe this has been answered previously.

How the heck can I get ads to block properly? I tell it to filter image and it doesn't. Is it just broken in b5?

Also, I'd like to make a request that plain ol' english be usable in the block list. As in: no grep. I don't know grep and I'd still like to be able to figure out how to block images from servers. Thanks.

cpac · Apr 28, 2004, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by torifile:
How the heck can I get ads to block properly? I tell it to filter image and it doesn't. Is it just broken in b5?

Nope. It was broken in b4, but as of b5, everything is working as expected. (Flash ads occasionally make it through though)

Also, I'd like to make a request that plain ol' english be usable in the block list. As in: no grep. I don't know grep and I'd still like to be able to figure out how to block images from servers. Thanks.

Have you tried the contextual menu "Filter this image"? It creates the grep or whatever format it is image filter for whatever image you click on, from there you can edit to place .* s around the important part to block any suck images in the future (it takes most of the guesswork out of filtering).

iNeusch · Apr 28, 2004, 03:37 AM

Originally posted by larkost:
Ok.. now it looks like a solid bug, and I am not sure if it WebCore, or the Omni portions of the code, but it looks to be related to the "position: relative;" for the "#wrap" div.

Looks strange

How can I make sure it's core related ?
How can I help Omni about that ?

For those who want to see it the link is in my sig... that's a strange bug

juanvaldes · Apr 28, 2004, 04:51 AM

http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

check out w3.org for lots of good stuff.

iNeusch · Apr 28, 2004, 05:48 AM

Originally posted by juanvaldes:
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

check out w3.org for lots of good stuff.

My CSS is valid...
Any changes on OmniWeb ?

larkost · Apr 28, 2004, 12:57 PM

iNeusch: the easiest way of seeing if it is directly a WebCore thing would be to see if an older version of Safari has the same problem. If it does have the same problem, then just ignore it as it will go away with OW 5.1 (or so). Otherwise it might be a good idea to send an email to the guys at omni to tell them about it.

Mike S. · Apr 28, 2004, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by larkost:
iNeusch: the easiest way of seeing if it is directly a WebCore thing would be to see if an older version of Safari has the same problem. If it does have the same problem, then just ignore it as it will go away with OW 5.1 (or so). Otherwise it might be a good idea to send an email to the guys at omni to tell them about it.

Safari 1.0.2 displays it fine.

OmniWeb 5 Beta does not scroll, OmniWeb 4.5.x doesn't scroll either so this is clearly an Omni issue and a rather old one at that.

iNeusch · Apr 28, 2004, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Mike S.:
Safari 1.0.2 displays it fine.

OmniWeb 5 Beta does not scroll, OmniWeb 4.5.x doesn't scroll either so this is clearly an Omni issue and a rather old one at that.

Yeah !
Thanks so much Mike

juanvaldes · Apr 29, 2004, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by iNeusch:
My CSS is valid...
Any changes on OmniWeb ?

but your HTML is not.
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...ineusch.com%2F

Could be OW of course, but it looks like you still have a few to work out.

Side note: I've moved back to OW with beta 5 and all I have to say is.
It feels good to be home.

iNeusch · Apr 29, 2004, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by juanvaldes:
but your HTML is not.
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...ineusch.com%2F

Could be OW of course, but it looks like you still have a few to work out.

Side note: I've moved back to OW with beta 5 and all I have to say is.
It feels good to be home.

The XHTML validator doesn't like the way my Java applet is used... that's all
I have another (private) site which is valid for both and it looks the same in Omni

juanvaldes · Apr 29, 2004, 05:46 PM

answers that. I assume you have filed this as a bug outside of this thread. Gotta be proactive.

Until they can find the problem have you looked into figuring out what is causing the problem and working about that in your HTML/CSS?

Tim2 at Omni · Apr 29, 2004, 06:27 PM

Smells like a WebCore v85 bug to me.

You could just wait until we merge in the updated WebCore -- I'm actually starting on that very soon

MrBS · Apr 29, 2004, 08:55 PM

::reads into the statement::

They are almost finished with 5.0

OW 5 is shipping soon.

Tim wants pizza.

...okay maybe that was reading too much into the statement. But I still think that means it will be shipping soon.

(hopefully they get the nil value bug ironed out)
~BS

Tim2 at Omni · Apr 29, 2004, 09:10 PM

That's funny, I just had pizza.

Anyway, we will hopefully be shipping 5.0 soon. There will be at least one more beta, though.

Mike S. · Apr 29, 2004, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by Tim2 at Omni:
Smells like a WebCore v85 bug to me.

But it works perfectly fine in Safari 1.0.2 (v85.7)

iNeusch · Apr 30, 2004, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by Tim2 at Omni:
Smells like a WebCore v85 bug to me.

You could just wait until we merge in the updated WebCore -- I'm actually starting on that very soon

This is what I'm going to do

BTW, as soon as I get Omni working, you get my upgrade money !

Good job OmniGroup !

Are the nightlies ever going to come back ?

iNeusch · Apr 30, 2004, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by juanvaldes:
but your HTML is not.
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...ineusch.com%2F

Could be OW of course, but it looks like you still have a few to work out.

Side note: I've moved back to OW with beta 5 and all I have to say is.
It feels good to be home.

Code is valid now...
Is it better ? (I'm not at home...)
(click the sig to open the site)

biscuit · Apr 30, 2004, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by iNeusch:
Code is valid now...
Is it better ?

Nope.

Did you file the bug report?

biscuit

iNeusch · Apr 30, 2004, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by biscuit:
Nope.

Did you file the bug report?

biscuit

I'll do that ASAP

juanvaldes · Apr 30, 2004, 02:01 PM

good to see its' valid but no dice. But at least we KNOW it's not your fault it's the browsers fault.

BZ · Apr 30, 2004, 02:57 PM

Today? Please.....

I want to see the 10% speed on text.

BZ

Originally posted by Tim2 at Omni:
That's funny, I just had pizza.

Anyway, we will hopefully be shipping 5.0 soon. There will be at least one more beta, though.

juanvaldes · Apr 30, 2004, 04:27 PM

okay I have not seen this mentioned at all so here goes.

The only way I have managed to crash OWb5 is to open the javascript console window and attempt to close it. I sent in bug reports but since I don't pay it might take some time.

I found a work around by deleting the omniweb5 plist in ~/Library/Preferences/

zepkin · Apr 30, 2004, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by BZ:
Give us the SPEEEEEEEEEEED!

I just figured out a very useful little trick for OW5 that I would like to share.

I am always on a OmniTab and want to go to my bookmarks (folders, in the top bar) and open some more sites, but I don't want it to go over the site I am on. One way would be to create a new tab, go to it, and select your bookmark. Another and much easier way is to start into the bookmarks and before you choose it hold down the command (apple) key. It will open that bookmark in a new tab.

Bingo.

Remember to hold down the command key AFTER you are in the bookmarks dropdown. If you hold it down before clicking on the folder, it will open everything in a new tab.

This alone has helped my stay with OW longer and longer.

BZ

If you hold down shift+apple and click in a menu, it will open the tab in the background and not select it. This is a nice touch and I find it especially useful with RSS feeds. I can go through a feed and open a couple of things in the background for reading later.

iNeusch · Apr 30, 2004, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by juanvaldes:
good to see its' valid but no dice. But at least we KNOW it's not your fault it's the browsers fault.

Tim2 at Omni · Apr 30, 2004, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by juanvaldes:
okay I have not seen this mentioned at all so here goes.

The only way I have managed to crash OWb5 is to open the javascript console window and attempt to close it. I sent in bug reports but since I don't pay it might take some time.

I found a work around by deleting the omniweb5 plist in ~/Library/Preferences/

This has been fixed for beta 6. Thanks for the bug reports

juanvaldes · Apr 30, 2004, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Tim2 at Omni:
This has been fixed for beta 6. Thanks for the bug reports

good to know, can't wait for beta 6.

Amorya · Apr 30, 2004, 07:49 PM

In cpanel, especially in the Edit Mail Accounts page, the images are broken. In fact, all non-GIF images served up by cpanel are broken... both JPEG and PNG don't work. I think this is because cpanel is not setting the MIME type correctly for them.

However, they work in Safari. Maybe Safari is guessing the MIME type when one is not given?

BTW, the textarea bug is still here. Sometimes when I start typing in a textarea, the text does not appear. It's happening now... I had to click the plus and open a new window to edit in.

Amorya

philcozz · May 1, 2004, 01:07 PM

I don't know if this has been mentioned in this long thread, so I'll go ahead and ask:

The "type-ahead" feature that allows you to just start typing to jump to a link in a page only seems to work if you type the very first word (or letters) of the link. If you try to type any other part of the link it doesn't find it. Perfect example is this thread. I knew there was an OmniWeb link on the software page so I typed "omni" but didn't get to the link, because the link is actually "The OmniWeb..." I know from working with Firefox and Camino (as well as Safari with Saft) that those browsers can find any part of a link.

Assuming this isn't just strange behavior on my end, is there any plan to change this so any part of a link can be found?

Thanks in advance...

ratlater · May 1, 2004, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by philcozz:
I don't know if this has been mentioned in this long thread, so I'll go ahead and ask:

The "type-ahead" feature that allows you to just start typing to jump to a link in a page only seems to work if you type the very first word (or letters) of the link. If you try to type any other part of the link it doesn't find it. Perfect example is this thread. I knew there was an OmniWeb link on the software page so I typed "omni" but didn't get to the link, because the link is actually "The OmniWeb..." I know from working with Firefox and Camino (as well as Safari with Saft) that those browsers can find any part of a link.

Assuming this isn't just strange behavior on my end, is there any plan to change this so any part of a link can be found?

Thanks in advance...

This is not a bug, but definitely a feature I would love. I would also like a regular type ahead find for text as well as links.

-matt