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French flag tribute to Pope sparks left-wing anger
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Kodachrome
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Apr 4, 2005, 03:30 PM
 
French flag tribute to Pope sparks left-wing anger

PARIS, April 4 (Reuters) - As Catholics mourned the death of Pope John Paul, French leftwingers and a major teaching union criticised the government on Monday for ordering flags on public buildings to be lowered in a sign of respect.

Socialist senator Jean-Luc Melenchon and Yves Contassot, a senior Green party member on the Paris City Council, said the government had abused its powers in ordering the official tribute to the Pope, who died on Saturday.

The Unsa union said the government was guilty of double standards having ordered schools to take part in the tribute to a religious leader while having banned Muslim headscarves in state schools in a drive to keep schools firmly secular.

"Let the Christians pay tribute to the head of their church, it's a private matter," Contassot told France Inter radio.

"Today, we have a government and a head of state who, clearly, for political reasons, are trying to take advantage of an issue that is a private matter," he said.

Lowering of flags on all state buildings was "totally out of place and at the limit of legality."

Once so Catholic it was known as the "elder daughter of the Church," France has imposed a strict separation of church and state for 100 years to keep religion from provoking the bloody strife it sparked in previous centuries.

While the leaders of most major political parties have avoided comment, the row underscores the unpopular government's weakness as it struggles to convince hostile voters to back the European Union constitution in a referendum next month.

Millions of French are Roman Catholics, and there has been a public outpouring of grief over the Pope's death.

But Melenchon told Europe 1 radio the state was duty bound to observe a strict neutrality and that the flag tribute was a "favour awarded to one particular religion."

In a statement, the teachers' union Unsa said the order "to mark the death of a foreign head of state is unusual and constitutionally counter to our principles when it is a question of a representative of a church."

Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin defended the government's move, saying the lowering of the flag was one of the "Republican customs" when a pope died.

"They have been applied at the occasion of the deaths of Pius XII, John XXIII and John Paul I," the interior ministry said in a statement.

A spokesman for Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin said France also ordered its flags lowered in 1991 on the death of Norway's King Olaf V and in 1989 when Japanese Emperor Hirohito died.

"It's a republican tradition ... that applies to heads of state in office with which France has special relations or is friendly," the official said.

"The Pope is head of the Catholic Church and head of the Vatican City State" and flags would again be at half mast on Friday when the Pontiff is buried.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/...&w=RTR&coview=
     
Krusty
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Apr 4, 2005, 03:37 PM
 
I haven't been by a post office today. Are the flags in the US lowered for the Pope's death ?
     
BoomStick
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Apr 4, 2005, 03:38 PM
 
Georgia's are.
     
NYCFarmboy
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Apr 4, 2005, 04:34 PM
 
I think that is more a French Communist thing being anti-Pope than just being "left wing"... John Paul II was always hated by the communists for his key role in ending communist rule in Poland.
     
JohnSmithXTREME
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Apr 4, 2005, 04:39 PM
 
The French are strange, this is nothing new. I do think, however, that we need a separate forum for people to post DrudgeReport headlines.
     
RAILhead
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Apr 4, 2005, 04:42 PM
 
Our are half staff in Texas.

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von Wrangell
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Apr 4, 2005, 04:49 PM
 
"The Unsa union said the government was guilty of double standards having ordered schools to take part in the tribute to a religious leader while having banned Muslim headscarves in state schools in a drive to keep schools firmly secular. "

That's the point and this is true. It's nothing but hypocrisy.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Shaddim
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Apr 4, 2005, 04:51 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
Our are half staff in Texas.

Maury
Same in TN.
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RAILhead
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Apr 4, 2005, 04:53 PM
 
Originally posted by von Wrangell:
"The Unsa union said the government was guilty of double standards having ordered schools to take part in the tribute to a religious leader while having banned Muslim headscarves in state schools in a drive to keep schools firmly secular. "

That's the point and this is true. It's nothing but hypocrisy.
When the Pope died, we lowered our flags -- and they'll be lowered for a few days.

When the next world-known and respected Muslim leader dies -- one that's not an arse-hole -- they can wear head scarves.

Seems fair to me.

Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Shaddim
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Apr 4, 2005, 04:54 PM
 
Originally posted by von Wrangell:
"The Unsa union said the government was guilty of double standards having ordered schools to take part in the tribute to a religious leader while having banned Muslim headscarves in state schools in a drive to keep schools firmly secular. "

That's the point and this is true. It's nothing but hypocrisy.
It's the death of a deeply respected world leader, in a political as well as a religious sense. It's common courtesy, get over it.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Krusty
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Apr 4, 2005, 08:33 PM
 
It's interesting to see the political divides in the world in a new light when a great figure like the Pope is involved.

French Communists oppose official recognition of his death while Cuban Communists (under Fidel Castro's declaration) will observe 3 days of official state mourning. Bush will be the first president to attend a Papal funeral, yet John Paul II was an outspoken critic of the Iraq invasion in a way that he wasn't for other invasions such as Gulf War I, Afghanistan, and Kosovo (where he gave pretty standard condemnations of violence but was not overtly opposed to those actions the way he was with the Iraq war which he called 'A defeat for humanity'). The Pope and his bishops were on the side of Jacques Chirac, the UN, and Castro with regards to the war and were against the Christian Right in America from which so much of the support for the war emerged.

Politics (and religion) makes strange bedfellows, I suppose. There's a video snippet of Bill O'Reilly playing on FoxNews.com right now where O'Reilly is tearing Chirac, Schroeder, and Putin a new @sshole for not supporting us in the war ... the hilarious part is that the intro and exit advertisement is for Fox News' coverage of the Pope ... "a man of peace, loved by millions around the world". Could the irony be any thicker ?
     
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Apr 4, 2005, 09:22 PM
 
So, Krusty, you have finally caught a glimpse of the outside world? In America, people are used to seeing things in terms of black and white: Conservatives versus Liberals. In the rest of the world, however, it is much more complicated. Europeans hold varied, nuanced positions on political issues, they do not simply identify themselves as "Republican" or "Democrat". Politics frequently contradicts itself and overlaps with religion, that's just how it is in the real world.
     
Joshua
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Apr 4, 2005, 10:52 PM
 
Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
So, Krusty, you have finally caught a glimpse of the outside world? In America, people are used to seeing things in terms of black and white: Conservatives versus Liberals. In the rest of the world, however, it is much more complicated. Europeans hold varied, nuanced positions on political issues, they do not simply identify themselves as "Republican" or "Democrat". Politics frequently contradicts itself and overlaps with religion, that's just how it is in the real world.
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Krusty
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Apr 4, 2005, 11:56 PM
 
Originally posted by Joshua:
Thanks, I wasn't sure whether to use , , or to JSX's post.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 5, 2005, 06:44 AM
 
Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
So, Krusty, you have finally caught a glimpse of the outside world? In America, people are used to seeing things in terms of black and white: Conservatives versus Liberals. In the rest of the world, however, it is much more complicated. Europeans hold varied, nuanced positions on political issues, they do not simply identify themselves as "Republican" or "Democrat". Politics frequently contradicts itself and overlaps with religion, that's just how it is in the real world.
Wow how condescending and droll.

You really have no clue. None.
     
budster101
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Apr 5, 2005, 09:55 AM
 
Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
So, Krusty, you have finally caught a glimpse of the outside world? In America, people are used to seeing things in terms of black and white: Conservatives versus Liberals. In the rest of the world, however, it is much more complicated. Europeans hold varied, nuanced positions on political issues, they do not simply identify themselves as "Republican" or "Democrat". Politics frequently contradicts itself and overlaps with religion, that's just how it is in the real world.
You Are Clueless.
     
JohnSmithXTREME
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Apr 5, 2005, 10:06 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Wow how condescending and droll.

You really have no clue. None.
I'm sorry, I should've known that our American "country cousins" are not yet ready to handle the idea that in politics, there is more than just left versus right. In your 2 party system, this must be difficult to comprehend.
     
von Wrangell
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Apr 5, 2005, 10:06 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
It's the death of a deeply respected world leader, in a political as well as a religious sense. It's common courtesy, get over it.
He's first and foremost a religious leader. France is supposed to be a deeply secular society(or rather government). This just shows the hypocrisy as well as anything before.

I have no problem with the tribute. My problem is with the French government for imposing secular ideals onto school children when it suits them and then forcing religious ideals upon them with it suits them.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Shaddim
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Apr 5, 2005, 10:25 AM
 
Originally posted by von Wrangell:
He's first and foremost a religious leader. France is supposed to be a deeply secular society(or rather government). This just shows the hypocrisy as well as anything before.

I have no problem with the tribute. My problem is with the French government for imposing secular ideals onto school children when it suits them and then forcing religious ideals upon them with it suits them.
No, he was equally both, a political and spiritual leader. To put a finer point on it, he's the most influential leader (politically or spiritually) of the latter part of the 20th century. His work in the area of human rights is surpassed by no one who is alive today. Period.

Although I don't agree with all of his views, I am including him in my thoughts and meditations for the next week, as should all decent people. He was a truly great man, regardless of religious implications. The shortsightedness of those opposing this show of honor is very telling.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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budster101
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Apr 5, 2005, 10:30 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, he was equally both, a political and spiritual leader. To put a finer point on it, he's the most influential leader (politically or spiritually) of the latter part of the 20th century. His work in the area of human rights is surpassed by no one who is alive today. Period.

Although I don't agree with all of his views, I am including him in my thoughts and meditations for the next week, as should all decent people. He was a truly great man, regardless of religious implications. The shortsightedness of those opposing this show of honor is very telling.
Well said.

In addition to those comments:

He was quite a powerful political figure as well. He had a man on death row in the USA pardoned. Name one religious leader in the world that could have done that.
     
von Wrangell
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Apr 5, 2005, 10:32 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, he was equally both, a political and spiritual leader. To put a finer point on it, he's the most influential leader (politically or spiritually) of the latter part of the 20th century. His work in the area of human rights is surpassed by no one who is alive today. Period.

Although I don't agree with all of his views, I am including him in my thoughts and meditations for the next week, as should all decent people. He was a truly great man, regardless of religious implications. The shortsightedness of those opposing this show of honor is very telling.
It has nothing to do with "opposing this show of honour". It has to do with consistency.

The French government is making their schools honour a religious leader. All religious leaders are political leaders as well. If they want to do that they'll have to accept other religious aspects in school. Like the Hijab and and the Yarmulka.

IMO they should do both since it is important to honour the Pope. But it is also important to be Fair and Balanced�.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
BoomStick
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Apr 5, 2005, 10:53 AM
 
The arafat "funeral" was comedy gold!
     
dreilly1
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Apr 5, 2005, 10:54 AM
 
Originally posted by von Wrangell:
It has nothing to do with "opposing this show of honour". It has to do with consistency.

The French government is making their schools honour a religious leader. All religious leaders are political leaders as well. If they want to do that they'll have to accept other religious aspects in school. Like the Hijab and and the Yarmulka.

IMO they should do both since it is important to honour the Pope. But it is also important to be Fair and Balanced�.
All religious leaders are not political leaders in the same sense that the Pope is. The Vatican is still technically its own country, after all. And no other religious sect the size of the Roman Catholic Church has a single person as its head, much less a person who is technically a monarch as well. Maybe the Anglican church (which is much smaller IIRC), but that's all I can think of at the moment.

I think the ban on headscarves is silly myself, but I don't think that you can equate the two acts. The ban on headscarves is a ban on an overtly religious act; the lowering of the flags is a symbol of honor toward one man who Mr. Chirac deems important enough to honor in this manner. He's a religious figure, that's true, but he was generally respected even by people who didn't share his religion. Honoring the Pope is by no means honoring or affirming the Roman Catholic religion, or else Prince Charles (the future head of the Anglican church) wouldn't be going through so much trouble to reschedule his wedding to get to the funeral.

When the Queen of England kicks off, who is a monarch as well as head of a religious sect, the French would probably do the same thing, out of respect. Perhaps they'd do the same thing for the Dhali Lama (sp?) too, or the Patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic church (although that's a stretch). But there simply aren't any single Jewish or Muslim leaders that I'm aware of that have the same stature as any of these, because of the decentralized ways these religions are constructed.

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Shaddim
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Apr 5, 2005, 11:20 AM
 
Originally posted by von Wrangell:
It has nothing to do with "opposing this show of honour". It has to do with consistency.

The French government is making their schools honour a religious leader. All religious leaders are political leaders as well. If they want to do that they'll have to accept other religious aspects in school. Like the Hijab and and the Yarmulka.

IMO they should do both since it is important to honour the Pope. But it is also important to be Fair and Balanced�.
I was very much opposed to their decision to outlaw such attire in schools, not just because they are religious symbols, but because they're cultural symbols as well. But then, that's France's problem. If the French get pissed off enough, they'll change their leaders.
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Zimphire
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Apr 5, 2005, 12:55 PM
 
Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
I'm sorry, I should've known that our American "country cousins" are not yet ready to handle the idea that in politics, there is more than just left versus right. In your 2 party system, this must be difficult to comprehend.
More silliness. What I do find amusing is, of the 4 people that told you that you had no clue, you picked my post to reply to.
     
JohnSmithXTREME
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Apr 5, 2005, 01:00 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
More silliness. What I do find amusing is, of the 4 people that told you that you had no clue, you picked my post to reply to.
Because I like your responses best
     
RAILhead
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Apr 5, 2005, 01:10 PM
 
Originally posted by von Wrangell:
It has nothing to do with "opposing this show of honour". It has to do with consistency.
The French? Consistent?!?!?

Maury
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That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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budster101
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Apr 5, 2005, 01:19 PM
 
Consistency defined:

con�sis�tent __ _P___Pronunciation Key__(kn-sstnt)
adj.
1. In agreement; compatible: The testimony was consistent with the known facts.

2. Being in agreement with itself; coherent and uniform: a consistent pattern of
behavior.

3. Reliable; steady: demonstrated a consistent ability to impress the critics.

4. Mathematics. Having at least one common solution, as of two or more equations or
inequalities.

5. Holding true as a group; not contradictory: a consistent set of statements.

Consistency defined by the French:

1. Everything or anything that: Do whatever you please.

etc.,
     
demograph68
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Apr 5, 2005, 01:31 PM
 
Is it mandatory to lower the flag?
     
RAILhead
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Apr 5, 2005, 01:36 PM
 
Originally posted by demograph68:
Is it mandatory to lower the flag?
Not generally, but US Federal buildings are required to if the President says to lower the flag.

Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
budster101
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Apr 5, 2005, 01:39 PM
 
Originally posted by demograph68:
Is it mandatory to lower the flag?
Yes, lower your flag right now!
     
demograph68
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Apr 5, 2005, 01:46 PM
 
Originally posted by budster101:
Yes, lower your flag right now!
Make me.
     
budster101
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Apr 5, 2005, 01:51 PM
 
Originally posted by demograph68:
Make me.
Dang.
     
olePigeon
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Apr 5, 2005, 09:02 PM
 
Some flags are, some aren't. I guess it depends on where you live. Forcing you to lower your flag for religious reasons is stupid. You don't have to be left or right wing.

You think people would object to being forced to lower flags half-pole for Anton LeVay? Of course. Same should go for the Pope. Religion and government are two different things, and should remain that way.
     
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Apr 5, 2005, 10:19 PM
 
Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
I think that is more a French Communist thing being anti-Pope than just being "left wing"... John Paul II was always hated by the communists for his key role in ending communist rule in Poland.
I think you don't get it. They want state and religion separated. How complicated is that to understand?
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Apr 5, 2005, 10:47 PM
 
Originally posted by Krusty:
Bush will be the first president to attend a Papal funeral, yet John Paul II was an outspoken critic of the Iraq invasion in a way that he wasn't for other invasions such as Gulf War I, Afghanistan, and Kosovo (where he gave pretty standard condemnations of violence but was not overtly opposed to those actions the way he was with the Iraq war which he called 'A defeat for humanity'). The Pope and his bishops were on the side of Jacques Chirac, the UN, and Castro with regards to the war and were against the Christian Right in America from which so much of the support for the war emerged.
Please provide even a single quote from the Pope's mouth that supports your contention that the Pope was "an outspoken critic of the Iraq invasion in a way that he wasn't for other invasions".
     
NYCFarmboy
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Apr 5, 2005, 11:01 PM
 
Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
I think you don't get it. They want state and religion separated. How complicated is that to understand?

     
Zimphire
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Apr 5, 2005, 11:29 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
Please provide even a single quote from the Pope's mouth that supports your contention that the Pope was "an outspoken critic of the Iraq invasion in a way that he wasn't for other invasions".
You know I have always heard he was too, but have never seen any quotes myself.

Not saying he didn't, I have no idea.

And not that it would effect me either way. I'm not Catholic.

Either is Bush for that matter.
     
analogika
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Apr 6, 2005, 06:07 AM
 
The point is:

I LOOKS like a double standard, but it is not, really, since the Pope had a double role: political and religious leadership.

The flags are lowered because the Vatican's head of state has died.

NOT because the Catholic church's leader has died.


End of story.


-s*
     
nath
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Apr 6, 2005, 07:29 AM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
Please provide even a single quote from the Pope's mouth that supports your contention that the Pope was "an outspoken critic of the Iraq invasion in a way that he wasn't for other invasions".
�What are we to say of the threat of a war that could strike the people of Iraq, the land of the prophets, a people already sorely tried by more than 12 years of embargo?� the pope said. �War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations. As the Charter of the United Nations Organization and international law itself remind us, war cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions, without ignoring the consequences for the civilian population both during and after the military operations.�

More here:
http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/ar...03/012403g.htm

The only part of the initial contention that is dubious is the characterisation of the Pope's clearly stated criticisms as 'outspoken'. Since most of the world was against the war it is really those that supported it that were outspoken.
     
analogika
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Apr 6, 2005, 08:13 AM
 
Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
I think you don't get it. They want state and religion separated. How complicated is that to understand?
State and religion ARE separated.

That John-Paul II. was *also* a religious leader is unfortunate in that it confuses these people, but only incidental to the question of lowering flags in condolence.

-s*
     
von Wrangell
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Apr 6, 2005, 08:42 AM
 
Originally posted by analogika:
State and religion ARE separated.

That John-Paul II. was *also* a religious leader is unfortunate in that it confuses these people, but only incidental to the question of lowering flags in condolence.

-s*
Will flags be lowered because of the death of Ranier(can't remember the spelling)? It's very probably because of the link between Monaco and France but just wondering. How about any other head of states that have died in Europe recently?

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dreilly1
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Apr 6, 2005, 09:17 AM
 
Originally posted by analogika:
The point is:

I LOOKS like a double standard, but it is not, really, since the Pope had a double role: political and religious leadership.

The flags are lowered because the Vatican's head of state has died.

NOT because the Catholic church's leader has died.


End of story.


-s*
It's not quite the end of the story, though, since the Vatican is not a particularly powerful country in itself (at least not anymore, although there was a time when the Pope was a powerful European monarch), but the man heading it is powerful because almost a billion people are supposed to listen to him on spiritual matters.

But given this power based on religion and tradition, he used it to better the entire world in his time as Pope. Even aside from his role in stopping totalitarian communism in Europe, he has done more than any other Pope to reconcile the Roman Catholic faith with other faiths. I can understand why he is worthy of an honor like Chirac wants to bestow, purely on what the man has done for the world.

But this brings in a good point, which I think is the heart of this story: Religious Freedom does not mean Freedom from Religion. I think there is a feeling that any recognition of religion in everyday life at all, or acknowledgement of the affects of religious thought in the secular world, is somehow showing preference to one religion over another. I think that line of reasoning is intellectually deficient.

While it's true that religious thought has been the cause of a lot of strife in this world, it's also been the cause of a lot of good things, and enabled many people to dedicate their lives to causes greater than their own existence. More directly, though, religion influences the decision of billions of humans on this earth. Ignoring that, or considering all religious thought invalid simply because its religious, actually devalues the worldview of these people, and does nothing at all to further the cause of Equality. If anything, this Pope set an example that people of different faiths, who by definition disagree on the fundamental questions of existence and will never come to agreement, must nonetheless find a way to get along on this earth while embracing these differences.

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Millennium
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Apr 6, 2005, 09:51 AM
 
Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
I think you don't get it. They want state and religion separated. How complicated is that to understand?
As long as they don't try to push that on anyone else, it's fine. However, this is a case where they don't want to pay respect to an influential head of state because he was also the head of a religion. In essence, they want to attempt an (admittedly minor) imposition of that same separation of Church and State on him: because he refused this separation, he is not to be given proper respect.

France likes to bandy about separating religion and the State, but in fact this is not what they do. A state which was truly separate from religion would not interfere with people's practices, by banning expressions of faith in public. It certainly wouldn't mark a foreign head of state unworthy of respect because he was also a religious leader. No; what France has is something entirely different: that particular brand of atheism which is so deluded about its own faith that it doesn't even recognize it as faith.
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Shaddim
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Apr 6, 2005, 10:41 AM
 
Originally posted by olePigeon:
Some flags are, some aren't. I guess it depends on where you live. Forcing you to lower your flag for religious reasons is stupid. You don't have to be left or right wing.

You think people would object to being forced to lower flags half-pole for Anton LeVay? Of course. Same should go for the Pope. Religion and government are two different things, and should remain that way.
You're comparing John Paul to LeVay? Granted, I have no problem with LeVay, in some ways I respect him a great deal, he was a strong individual and a free-thinker. However, he did very little for anyone else, and was the archetype of modern selfishness. John Paul, OTOH, lived his life in the exact opposite manner, teaching charity and self-sacrifice. Two diametrically opposed philosophies.
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budster101
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Apr 6, 2005, 10:59 AM
 
Originally posted by analogika:
The point is:

I LOOKS like a double standard, but it is not, really, since the Pope had a double role: political and religious leadership.

The flags are lowered because the Vatican's head of state has died.

NOT because the Catholic church's leader has died.


End of story.


-s*
True, but then again, all lefties are concerned about are how things look... they are the transparent ones.

Hmm. Great book title. "The Transparent Ones".
     
swrate
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Apr 6, 2005, 12:31 PM
 
Un peu de finesse que diable!

The French are paying respect to the pope !

It's war terrorism and the fear of looking like chicken in the eyes of Big Brother (Frenchbashing trend) who confused them and made them tighten their position towards religion. Now they wonder if the secularity is respected and whether it is equitable according to other religions to bring the flags down, and to give a day or half a day off for his funerals. Why is the fact that politicians debated about it so offensive to some of you? Another thing: anyone in Europe knows the pope was against the war in Iraq, he said it before the war, and reprimanded W like a child who did a bad action during his visit to the Vatican last year I think it was.
.
Politicians reacted in France, not only the left, the right also, Fran�ois Bayerou for example, and they were many others from the right opposed not only to the lowering of the flag, but also to the time off school/work. Isn�t it irritating that the pope�s death, carried by the medias and by the Catholics, has an influence over economy and cultural thought of a whole country?

Isn�t it also a little outrageous to give time off school for the pope�s death, after it was decided last year to take one day off away every year for the elderly? French people will have to work on Pentecost, and it used to be a custom to not work that day. Some cities asked for derogations and switched their day off to Easter Monday because they had important celebrations at Pentecost, N�mes for example.

Europe is aware of the determinant political role Karol Wojtyla played by keeping communism away from Europe, as he supported Solidarnos, Lech Walesa�s syndical movement, who earned freedom for the Polish people. The movement used the Catholic church to meet, and to expand, as oppressed people frequently run towards religion, addictions or terrorism. Politics used religion and religion used politics.
The French wish to stay away from the danger of fanaticism and of inequity.

* wandering about the next cretinus americanus *S.Bellow to bash or to not understand my English post, comme d�habitude
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analogika
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Apr 6, 2005, 06:51 PM
 
Originally posted by budster101:
all lefties
That phrase right there qualifies you as an odious, ignorant bastard.

End of story.

Good night.
     
bubblewrap
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Apr 6, 2005, 07:08 PM
 
Is the Pope the ruler of Vatican City? Or is the re a president/prime minister?

AH, Found it.

The Vatican is technically a rare case of a non-hereditary elective monarchy; the monarch, the Pope, being elected for life by those Cardinals under the age of 80 during a Conclave (held in the Sistine Chapel). The Pope exercises supreme legislative, executive, and judicial power over the Holy See and the State of the Vatican City.
He was a revered LEADER.
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JohnSmithXTREME
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Apr 6, 2005, 07:13 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
Is the Pope the ruler of Vatican City? Or is the re a president/prime minister?
The Vatican is actually the last remaining absolute monarchy in Europe, so essentially the pope is the king of the Vatican.

edit: I see you've found the answer already.
     
 
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