[Helmling]

Then it's a sicker world than even I'd imagined:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...rss_topstories

Dear lord. What do we in the West do in the face of this very powerful and very backward current in Middle East/Muslim culture? How do you answer people who would even think to use an icon like this to twist children's minds toward violence?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Then it's a sicker world than even I'd imagined:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...rss_topstories

Dear lord. What do we in the West do in the face of this very powerful and very backward current in Middle East/Muslim culture? How do you answer people who would even think to use an icon like this to twist children's minds toward violence?

Highly motivated. The good news is as far as I can tell, the program is being shut down.

[Helmling]

Still, I can't help but think that culture is ultimately just a disease.

[wolfen]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Still, I can't help but think that culture is ultimately just a disease.

All human culture is a disease to anyone not conditioned to accept it as normal. I don't know why some Americans have such a hard time accepting that. For every atrocity you can point to in some other cutlure, I can give you one about the USA. And the USA's are almost always bigger in scale.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by wolfen 

All human culture is a disease to anyone not conditioned to accept it as normal. I don't know why some Americans have such a hard time accepting that. For every atrocity you can point to in some other cutlure, I can give you one about the USA. And the USA's are almost always bigger in scale.

Right on the head, thank you. Not that I would trade my culture for anything else (yet).

[red rocket]

That Disney woman has some nerve talking about ‘evil’.



Racist hypocrites.

[analogika]

No, no, no - the racist stuff and propaganda actually never happened.

You can tell, because it's not in Disney's catalogues. You're just making **** up again, as usual - damn leftist methodology at its best.

Yes.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by wolfen 

All human culture is a disease to anyone not conditioned to accept it as normal. I don't know why some Americans have such a hard time accepting that. For every atrocity you can point to in some other cutlure, I can give you one about the USA. And the USA's are almost always bigger in scale.

Well, Dr. Seuss did do propaganda during WW2.

Listen, obviously US history is dotted with "atrocities," but not many in recent memory. But we're not even talking about atrocities here, we're talking about a culture steeped in perpetuating violence. When I made the comment, I was thinking beyond just Palestinians and Israelis. I was also remembering the Anderson Cooper bit on the "stop snitchin'" and its condemnation of the celebration of violence and misogyny in hip-hop "culture."

[goMac]

Here's something interesting the article strangely doesn't mention (but the TV version does).

CNN went back and did their own translation of what was being said on the show, and it did not match what the "Palestinian Media Watch and Middle East Media Research Institute" actually said was being said. It was actually significantly less controversial. When the watchdog group was approached with this, they simply said they stood by their translation.

Culture assassination from the right?

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

That Disney woman has some nerve talking about ‘evil’.



Racist hypocrites.

You really want to compare making fun of someone for entertainment decades ago to indoctrinating children with hatred and violence? Are you REALLY making that comparison? Not to mention that most of those who were around when that old Disney stuff was made are dead so I don't see how this woman is a hypocrite.

We have a lot of crap in our past that we should not be proud of, and in the future we will look back at THIS time and be ashamed as well. But we our society is ever evolving upward.

When it comes to upward evolution, it seems that some of the muslim culture is in a "temporal anomaly".

Introspection is a very useful and often necessary tool for personal growth, but there is a line that gets crossed from introspection over to [i]self-abuse[i].

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

What do we in the West do in the face of this very powerful and very backward current in Middle East/Muslim culture?

Very powerful?

Please try to remember: this "very backward current" is only a small portion of "Middle East/Muslim culture."

Originally Posted by Helmling 

How do you answer people who would even think to use an icon like this to twist children's minds toward violence?

By publicly condemning it, maybe? This children's program was stopped, after all.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

The goofiest thing is, this is only an issue because they used "Militant Mouse" this time. You can advocate that kids kill the infidel all you want, but just don't defile the Disney franchise while doing it.

Great, so the other 364 days it'll be some guy dressed as "Militant Mongoose" telling kids to go to bed on time, drink milk, and kill the infidel women and children, and no one in the 'asleep at the wheel west' will give a mouse's ass.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Then it's a sicker world than even I'd imagined:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...rss_topstories

Dear lord. What do we in the West do in the face of this very powerful and very backward current in Middle East/Muslim culture? How do you answer people who would even think to use an icon like this to twist children's minds toward violence?

Perhaps you need to watch Jesus Camp which is in good ol' home grown USA.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Perhaps you need to watch Jesus Camp which is in good ol' home grown USA.

There's a difference between metaphors and AK-47s.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

There's a difference between metaphors and AK-47s.

Yeah, AK-47s have a limited range.

[wolfen]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Well, Dr. Seuss did do propaganda during WW2.

Listen, obviously US history is dotted with "atrocities," but not many in recent memory. But we're not even talking about atrocities here, we're talking about a culture steeped in perpetuating violence. When I made the comment, I was thinking beyond just Palestinians and Israelis. I was also remembering the Anderson Cooper bit on the "stop snitchin'" and its condemnation of the celebration of violence and misogyny in hip-hop "culture."

So far you're focused on NONWHITE PEOPLE. This is concerning.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

There's a difference between metaphors and AK-47s.

Ya they don't got kids with machine guns in the US but I hear the cornet store will sell anyone just about any other gun. Good place to go after a day of brainwashing in church.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Ya they don't got kids with mashing guns in the US but I hear the cornet store will sell anyone just about any other gun. Good place to go after a day of brian washing in church.

+

[Sherman Homan]

Muslim Mouse and the Mosqueketeers

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Ya they don't got kids with mashing guns in the US but I hear the cornet store will sell anyone just about any other gun. Good place to go after a day of brian washing in church.

Mashing guns and Brian-washing? The horror!

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Sherman Homan 

Muslim Mouse and the Mosqueketeers

[CleoW]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Here's something interesting the article strangely doesn't mention (but the TV version does).

CNN went back and did their own translation of what was being said on the show, and it did not match what the "Palestinian Media Watch and Middle East Media Research Institute" actually said was being said. It was actually significantly less controversial. When the watchdog group was approached with this, they simply said they stood by their translation.

Culture assassination from the right?

That doesn't surprise me. I can easily think of another explanation than "culture assasination from the right," especially fom CNN.

[wolfen]

Originally Posted by CleoW 

That doesn't surprise me. I can easily think of another explanation than "culture assasination from the right," especially fom CNN.

No...CNN found out about the mistranslations. It was the organizations that appear to have overreacted.

I don't understand your comment at all.

[CleoW]

Okay, I misunderstood what was being said. The MEMRI seems to be a Pal- friendly org., so it seems strange that someone would paint their agenda as culture assasination.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Mashing guns and Brian-washing? The horror!

Ha ha, I was on the phone when I wrote that.

At any rate look what the nice religious folks in the US do... protest funerals and murdering abortion doctors.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Very powerful?

Please try to remember: this "very backward current" is only a small portion of "Middle East/Muslim culture."

I don't know, man (or "mam," sorry). I really think we have to start asking ourselves if that's true. This is obviously a pretty small and insignificant example, but look at the riots over the Danish cartoons and the pervasive use of violence and terrorism. Hell, look at the Iranian minister leaving a state dinner because he saw too much of some violinist's cleavage.

[wolfen]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

I don't know, man (or "mam," sorry). I really think we have to start asking ourselves if that's true. This is obviously a pretty small and insignificant example, but look at the riots over the Danish cartoons and the pervasive use of violence and terrorism. Hell, look at the Iranian minister leaving a state dinner because he saw too much of some violinist's cleavage.

Yes, let's cleanse the heathen. I mean, it did the Native Americans some good, right?

Seriously, dude. You are scary.

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by CleoW

Okay, I misunderstood what was being said. The MEMRI seems to be a Pal- friendly org., so it seems strange that someone would paint their agenda as culture assasination.

‘Pal-friendly’??? MEMRI is a staunchly pro‑Israel propaganda organisation.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for the UK Guardian newspaper, has criticized MEMRI for having a pro-Israel bias and agenda, and not being explicit about this on its website. He has written, "My problem with Memri is that it poses as a research institute when it's basically a propaganda operation", that material selected by MEMRI for translation, "further the political agenda of Israel, and ", and that, "MEMRI's website does not mention you [Carmon] or your work for Israeli intelligence. Nor does it mention MEMRI's co-founder, Meyrav Wurmser, and her extreme brand of Zionism ... Given your political background, it's legitimate to ask whether MEMRI is a trustworthy vehicle"

Hussein Ibish, a spokesman for the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee comments that "MEMRI performs a useful function but unfortunately they have a pro-Israel, right-wing agenda." He also says that: "There is of course some horrific stuff in the Arab press, but one tends to forget that the American press can also be very nasty.

Brian Whitaker has said that "the stories selected by Memri for translation...reflect badly on the character of Arabs."

Ken Livingstone, former British MP and the current Mayor of London, has stated of MEMRI that: "The translation and selection of quotes tend to portray Islam in a very negative light." He has accused MEMRI of "outright distortion".

Ibrahim Hooper, a director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, stated in the Washington Times that "MEMRI's intent is to find the worst possible quotes from the Muslim world and disseminate them as widely as possible."

William Rugh, former US ambassador to the United Arab Emirates and Yemen, describes MEMRI as a service which "does not present a balanced or complete picture of the Arab print media. ...Quotes are selected to portray Arabs as preaching hatred against Jews and westerners, praising violence and refusing any peaceful settlement of the Palestinian issue."

Leila Hudson writes in the journal Middle East Policy, "MEMRI simultaneously highlights stories emphasizing the most extreme stereotypes of clashing Arab and Islamic civilization, which would not otherwise come to light. In effect, it amplifies the noise that most effectively distracts from the projects of engagement and negotiation. This is compounded by the interlinked series of websites, blogs and forums on the right wing of the think-tank periphery. Like the Israeli disinformation site Debka.com, MEMRI produces and amplifies noise, while buttressing the weak 'clash of civilizations' theory with selective extremist writing."

Middle East Media Research Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[analogika]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I hear the cornet store will sell anyone just about any other gun.

Know, you got it wrong.

Brass sections "stab" or "hit", they do not shoot. (Depending on the arranger, they may also be into "licks", but you'd probably want a different kind of store than the cornet store for that, anyway.)

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Ya they don't got kids with machine guns in the US but I hear the cornet store will sell anyone just about any other gun. Good place to go after a day of brainwashing in church.

Could you possibly be any thicker?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Ha ha, I was on the phone when I wrote that.

At any rate look what the nice religious folks in the US do... protest funerals and murdering abortion doctors.

The protesting funeral thing is probably what... 15 members of one church? Countless Christians have expressed a significant distaste for this congregation. When was the last abortion murder, 1998? You got any examples from this decade or do you just have some sort of moronic chip on your shoulder that you like seeing on your computer?

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

or do you just have some sort of moronic chip on your shoulder that you like seeing on your computer?

Only if it's a dual core.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Here's something interesting the article strangely doesn't mention (but the TV version does).

CNN went back and did their own translation of what was being said on the show, and it did not match what the "Palestinian Media Watch and Middle East Media Research Institute" actually said was being said. It was actually significantly less controversial. When the watchdog group was approached with this, they simply said they stood by their translation.

Culture assassination from the right?

Another good example we need to get our news from more then one source, to treat everything reported with a grain of salt and not jump the gun on reacting to things.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by wolfen 

So far you're focused on NONWHITE PEOPLE. This is concerning.

Well, because I was thinking specifically of violence. The diseased elements of "white" culture--if there is such a thing--might be the growing narcissism of this generation and the example of superficial pop figures like Paris Hilton.

But none of those things lead to the use of AK-47's.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Well, because I was thinking specifically of violence. The diseased elements of "white" culture--if there is such a thing--might be the growing narcissism of this generation and the example of superficial pop figures like Paris Hilton.

But none of those things lead to the use of AK-47's.

If Paris Hilton is the worst thing about this generation, we're doing pretty good. I can think of far more violent examples from previous "white generations" like the KKK, the Mob, the Hell's Angels, ...

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by wolfen 

Yes, let's cleanse the heathen. I mean, it did the Native Americans some good, right?

Seriously, dude. You are scary.

No, I think the point I'm trying to make is that they're scary.

I sense a knee-jerk reaction, but maybe before you start pigeon-holing me you might want to ask around here. I'm one the oft-decried lefties.

But I'm also a realist. Realistically speaking, we have to admit there are some serious compatibility issues between our way of life and this very strong current running through the cultures in question.

How do we reconcile with the Iranians, for example? I mean, the man walked out of a state dinner because he saw too much skin on a violinist. Really, really think about that as a microcosm of the cultural conflict we're facing here. There's a whole country tearing itself to pieces right next, but this guy honestly believed making a statement about repressing women was more important?!?

What do we do if we find we're facing a gulf that dialogue can never bridge? That's what I'm asking.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

If Paris Hilton is the worst thing about this generation, we're doing pretty good. I can think of far more violent examples from previous "white generations" like the KKK, the Mob, the Hell's Angels, ...

That's an excellent example of an entrenched and bigoted culture. I wonder what lessons we can learn from the civil rights movement that might inform our dealings with regimes like Iran...There may be so many differences that the analogy isn't useful, but it's worth thinking about.

It would be nice if the UN could play the role of the Federal government and force institutional change upon what I've presumptuously called "backward" cultures--that's admittedly not too likely. There was, though, a lot more to the success of the Civil Rights movement than that.

[wolfen]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

No, I think the point I'm trying to make is that they're scary.

But I'm also a realist. Realistically speaking, we have to admit there are some serious compatibility issues between our way of life and this very strong current running through the cultures in question.

And I don't see a problem with incompatibility. I don't feel it's something that should be feared.

How do we reconcile with the Iranians, for example? I mean, the man walked out of a state dinner because he saw too much skin on a violinist. Really, really think about that as a microcosm of the cultural conflict we're facing here. There's a whole country tearing itself to pieces right next, but this guy honestly believed making a statement about repressing women was more important?!?

That's a very narrow interpretation of his action. There are a dozen others that do not incorporate such demonization. The man has a right to do what he wants. That's what America stands for. He does it, and you have a problem with it. Do you see the hypocrisy here? It's the typical "You should have the freedom to do what we want you to do" attitude of many I know.

What do we do if we find we're facing a gulf that dialogue can never bridge? That's what I'm asking.

Human nature is human nature. It's equally dark in every culture. That's what I'm saying. You're pointing to 1 party in a 2-party relationship and saying "Oooh, they're evil." and I'm saying that reaction is the problem. Because it's rooted in the idea that you're somehow above them. And its reflective of one of the US' primary cultural flaws: our arrogant sense of superiority and entitlement.

[wolfen]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Well, because I was thinking specifically of violence. The diseased elements of "white" culture--if there is such a thing--might be the growing narcissism of this generation and the example of superficial pop figures like Paris Hilton.

But none of those things lead to the use of AK-47's.

...or abrams tanks or apache helicopters or laser guided weapons systems or ...oh wait, what were we talking about again?

Oh yes...the nonviolent white people. Carry on.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by wolfen 

...or abrams tanks or apache helicopters or laser guided weapons systems or ...oh wait, what were we talking about again?

Oh yes...the nonviolent white people. Carry on.

Really, do you have an argument to make?

Violent movies maybe? I'm trying to help you make some logical connections between your emotional outbursts and the issue at hand. So yeah, play the movie card.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by wolfen 

And I don't see a problem with incompatibility. I don't feel it's something that should be feared.

That's a very narrow interpretation of his action. There are a dozen others that do not incorporate such demonization. The man has a right to do what he wants. That's what America stands for. He does it, and you have a problem with it. Do you see the hypocrisy here? It's the typical "You should have the freedom to do what we want you to do" attitude of many I know.

Human nature is human nature. It's equally dark in every culture. That's what I'm saying. You're pointing to 1 party in a 2-party relationship and saying "Oooh, they're evil." and I'm saying that reaction is the problem. Because it's rooted in the idea that you're somehow above them. And its reflective of one of the US' primary cultural flaws: our arrogant sense of superiority and entitlement.

I have just as much freedom to have a problem with something as any man has to do it. If the man in question, and the culture I've appointed him representative of, felt the same way then we wouldn't really have a larger problem. Just a disagreement like the ones you and I are having, or that we probably both have with Orion27 or any of the other conflicts that pass peaceably in civil society under the protection of democracy and liberty. But this man we're talking about and his "culture" are doing far more than walking out on violinists. They're oppressing ten million women in Iran...and far, far worse if we use the broadest definition.

I'm all for moral relativism, but what people miss about it is that it doesn't deny one the right to moral outrage. It doesn't negate belief in principle. He's got his and I've got mine. I think mine are better. They speak to what is just in the human spirit, not what is small and petty. Therefore, I have a problem with him and his ilk.

So yes, I am above the men who stone women for "adultery" after they are raped. I am above the men who sponsor violence that indiscriminately targets innocent civilians. And I'm even above this jerk-off who can't be in the same room with a woman if she's playing violin in a skirt.

There comes a time when we have no choice but to pass judgement, when we reach the limit of what can be tolerated because to tolerate something when it is just plain wrong is no better than condoning it.

That is, as you point out, human nature.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Listen, obviously US history is dotted with "atrocities," but not many in recent memory.

Seriously though, how far back does your memory go ? Minutes ? Hours ?

-t

[wolfen]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Really, do you have an argument to make?

Violent movies maybe? I'm trying to help you make some logical connections between your emotional outbursts and the issue at hand. So yeah, play the movie card.

Violent MOVIES? No...I don't have an argument to waste anymore.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Seriously though, how far back does your memory go ? Minutes ? Hours ?

-t

Oh, come on, we're talking "atrocities" here. Can we all just dispense with the hyperbole?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by wolfen 

...or abrams tanks or apache helicopters or laser guided weapons systems or ...oh wait, what were we talking about again?

Oh yes...the nonviolent white people. Carry on.

... because as you know, there are no black people in military intel, weapons R & D and the whites still force the blacks to the back of the Apache. Give me a friggin' break with this nonsense. Human nature is violent.

Psst... even *hush-native Americans were violent to one another. Shocker huh? Who'da thunk it?

[wolfen]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Human nature is violent.

Exactly. So the moral superiority bit is tired. That's the origins of this thread. And I pointed that out. Already.

[subego]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

but I hear the cornet store will sell anyone just about any other gun.

What a totally ridiculous statement. Dude, you get ammo at the corner store.

It's that weenie 9mm NATO ball stuff too. ****ing Europeans. Why couldn't you adopt a man's bullet?

[macintologist]

While Hamas kiddy propaganda is despicable, that doesn't mean we should be sending billions of tax dollars to Israel to fund their military machine.

Ron Paul is a Republican running for president in 2008 who believes we should NEVER send foreign aid to ANY country for ANY reason. A foreign policy of non-intervention is pro-American, pro-freedom, and follows the founding fathers.

[vmarks]

Macintologist,
It's also what got us into paying appeasement tributes prior to the Barbary wars. The appeasement money paid to the Muslim pirates was in violation of a strict reading of Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution, but it was done by a President John Adams, and Jefferson. I seem to recall that they were founding fathers.


If you really think that you can cut off all foreign aid, and not hear about "weakening our reputation in the world" when a tsunami hits and the first question asked around the world is "where is the US?", great. No one talks about de-funding Egypt, no one talked about de-funding the Palestinians until they elected a recognized terrorist group, no one talks about de-funding all the other places that US money goes. But only Israel ever came before US Congress and said it had a plan for how to become financially independent of US aid. That was Netanyahu, and he never got to enact the policy, because Ehud Barak won the next election, with the help of Carville, who was sent to Israel by Clinton to get Barak elected. Tell me again about foreign entanglements, macintologist.

CNN.com - Transcripts has the transcript with the different translation that goMac mentioned above.

CNN didn't retranslate on their own. They had stringers they relied on. So did Reuters in Adnan Hajj, who didn't mind a little photoshop to make news, especially when it was going to damage Israel.

The CNN 'translation' does not refute the Hamas Mouse pushing Islamic world supremacy through violence on the children.

On the show on Friday, Hazem Sharawi called for Islamic rule and for Spain to be returned to Muslim rule as after the 8th century Moorish invasion.

"Palestine will return free and Andalus will return soon. Hello Egypt, Damascus and Algeria. Islam will return for all whole world," he said.

CNN has a history in Israel as well - in 2002 they were nearly pulled from broadcast in all Israel because of their excusing and favouring the Palestinians, and Ted Turner's remarks suggesting that Israelis are terrorists. The response by CNN was to run a week-long set of documentaries on Israeli victories and Israeli soldiers -- which was equally dis-satisfying when the message given to CNN was quit their bias, not respond with opposite bias for a week and then return to business as usual.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by wolfen 

Exactly. So the moral superiority bit is tired. That's the origins of this thread. And I pointed that out. Already.

No, arguing for nothing more than the sake of it is tiring. I think the origins of this thread are something about a friggin' Mouse telling kids to kill people. What you pointed out was that as Americans, we are not qualified to pass judgment on this issue because of the violent past of the white man or some other desperate comparisons of 100 years ago.

So... yeah, you may have pointed something out, but what it is isn't exactly clear unless of course you're trying to say that humans should never judge the actions of other humans. I think the point is, we're striving toward progress and Helmling questions whether or not there are cultures who aren't.