[freeandunmuzzled]

"Longhorn rocks

Well, we finally got a lengthy Longhorn/Aero demo and ... my goodness. Longhorn is going to rock, and we're only disappointed that the build we got doesn't show this system's best features off effectively. The transparent window effects--called glass windows, appropriately enough--are beautiful. The ability to embed video and any other kind of media into documents, apps, and anything else you can think off--even small previews you see when you mouse-over a scrollbar--are just incredible, surpassing anything on any system available today (yes, including Mac OS X Panther). The visuals in Longhorn are just going to blow you away, and the good news is we have plenty of photos and video to prove it.

10/27-2003 9:40AM PST"

http://www.winnetmag.com/windowspaul...ott_40626.html

Discuss!

[SMacTech]

Great subject title! You want to discuss what exactly that is relevant to OS X ?

[chris v]

Wow! Three years from now, Windows will be able to do stuff Apple could do last year!

Apple is doomed. Doomed, do you hear me?

CV

[orry_main]

To quote Gir, from 'Invader Zim', for whom my iBook is named: 'Now I'm gonna sing the doom song. Doom, do-do-doom. Doom. Do-doom.' etc.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by freeandunmuzzled:
... surpassing anything on any system available today (yes, including Mac OS X Panther) ...

Discuss!

Well, the obvious response .... how will it compare to 10.5 which is what should be available by the time LH is actually released ? Bad (or good) thing about M$ .. they reveal their plans so early on that Apple (or anyone) can make sure to match (or exceed) whatever they plan to do by the time they do it.

God ... I really hope they hire Omar to make a promo for Longhorn ...

[Dirk Lenz]

Think Different!

:Dirk

[freeandunmuzzled]

Originally posted by Krusty:
Well, the obvious response .... how will it compare to 10.5 which is what should be available by the time LH is actually released ?

right. I don't get a clear sense of Apple's direction in terms of visual design (rather than interaction or functional) improvements to OS X though. I think brushed metal looks pretty dated and Aqua seems to be getting grayer and more, well, Platinum-like.

Bad (or good) thing about M$ .. they reveal their plans so early on that Apple (or anyone) can make sure to match (or exceed) whatever they plan to do by the time they do it.

although they have made a decision to NOT inclide the Aero look in the build they are giving out at the developer's conference.

I don't know what Thurrot is on about regarding the previews which OS X has had for years.

[chris v]

Originally posted by Dirk Lenz:





Think Different!

irk

Exactly.

CV

[RooneyX]

Any links to videos of these new effects in Windows?

[freeandunmuzzled]

Originally posted by chris v:
Exactly.

CV

eveyone knows that is just placeholder visuals for the UI designers. jeez,

[snerdini]

Those images speak volumes.

[chris v]

Originally posted by freeandunmuzzled:
eveyone knows that is just placeholder visuals for the UI designers. jeez,

Do you seriously expect it to look as simple and refined as iSync, even in another three years? I suspect multiple programmers may now be hard at work within the bowels of Microsoft, busily making it look even worse.

CV

[mh0ffmann]

What do we (the Mac community) care about Longhorn? It'll give the Wintel world, in 2005, stuff we've had since Jaguar. Good for them.

It'll be XP's second-grade coloring-book UI with a modern renderer a-la Quartz... "glass windows" oooh...

Let's focus on what Apple will bring US in that timeframe!

Mark

[freeandunmuzzled]

Originally posted by chris v:
Do you seriously expect it to look as simple and refined as iSync, even in another three years? I suspect multiple programmers may now be hard at work within the bowels of Microsoft, busily making it look even worse.

CV

well all programmers have immense ability to make UI look awful, as any designer who has worked with developers knows

I do believe that they may actually have some designers at MS you know...

[freeandunmuzzled]

Originally posted by mh0ffmann:
What do we (the Mac community) care about Longhorn? It'll give the Wintel world, in 2005, stuff we've had since Jaguar. Good for them.

It'll be XP's second-grade coloring-book UI with a modern renderer a-la Quartz... "glass windows" oooh...

Let's focus on what Apple will bring US in that timeframe!

Mark

well if Longhorn really does manage to steal the OS eye candy crown, it might have an effect on Apple's business,no?

[ZackS]

Microsoft's takes on brushed metal:



You have GOT to be kidding me. That's it, it's the visual holocaust. Forfeit your eyes now before they get gouged out.

[freeandunmuzzled]

Originally posted by ZackS:
Microsoft's takes on brushed metal:



You have GOT to be kidding me. That's it, it's the visual holocaust. Forfeit your eyes now before they get gouged out.

Quote:

"[PDC] attendees will receive a special Longhorn build that has the Aero bits removed, and Microsoft executives will provide only a special demonstration preview of Aero during [...] Bill Gates's keynote address"

http://www.winnetmag.com/Article/Art...367/40367.html

[Hydra]

Wow, an operating system that is due out in 3 years has some cool new features that OSX already has. The ability to embed media files in documents, WOW you can do that now if the app supports it. How about posting the hardware requirements for that bad boy. When Apple released Quartz Extreme many PC'ers laughed at it as worthless eye candy that had an unreasonable video card requirement for a GUI . Now that Microsoft shows off some new features that are years away and have far steeper hardware requirements, it is sooo cool.

Microsoft's biggest mistake is to make this available to developers so far in advance of release. Apple has 3 years to study it and copy if need be. With Quartz Extreme already in OSX how hard do you really think it will be to implement. Apple is already busy on 10.4 but with release in just over a year from now they are gonna keep things under wraps.


If having the eye-candy crown is so important I guess Apple will have oodles of Windows switchers in the next three years because XP is the only consumer OS MS is going to sell. The only thing I hope is that Apple borrows anything cool that LongHorn has to offer and beats them to market by a year or two. Oh the irony

-Jerry C.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by Dirk Lenz:

Please notice the "type any word here" field. What the hell ?? You can type words there to amuse yourself during synchronisation ? Can't they add a little bit of clarity to their OS ?

[WJMoore]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
Please notice the "type any word here" field. What the hell ?? You can type words there to amuse yourself during synchronisation ? Can't they add a little bit of clarity to their OS ?

Umm surely you have realised this is a pre-release version of an operating system not scheduled for release for another two years. I'm sure in that time things like that will get fixed.

[TC]

I noticed on the site that Gates did a keynote, I found it here on the Microsoft website:
http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/s...-27PDC2003.asp

Not quite as snappy as watching a Steve Jobs keynote on quicktime.

I also noticed a really nice point on another page linked to here about them not showing Aero:

Microsoft made the decision to demonstrate Aero only because of the long delay between PDC 2003 and Longhorn's final release, which is set for late 2005. If the company released all its UI work now, its OS competitors--such as Apple Computer and various companies and organizations in the Linux camp, all of which have fewer customers and faster release cycles than Microsoft--would be able to clone the Longhorn work before the OS's release. This problem has dogged Microsoft in the past, the most recent example being Apple's Expose technology, which will ship in Mac OS X 10.3 late this year. Microsoft has been demonstrating Expose-like technology for years now, but the technology won't show up in Windows until the Longhorn release at the earliest.

I've been following longhorn's progress over the last few years and I have never heard of expose like technology. Anybody else?

I also want to see how close the final version looks to this:
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/s...-winhec-03.png

[JLL]

Originally posted by TC:
I also noticed a really nice point on another page linked to here about them not showing Aero:

Except that Microsoft didn't show any Expos� like features. I think he's mistaking Expos� for Quartz and Quartz has been here since 2000.

Plus he's mistaking Aero for Avalon.

Aero = Aqua
Avalon = Quartz

[theolein]

Firstly, the starter of this thread should note that posting titles with something more descriptive than "Discuss!" would help people in their perceptions of him NOT being here and posting this with the specific intent of trolling.

Secondly, the thread is on the verge of flaimbaiting (perhaps that was the intent?) in that posting a "Longhorn will kick OSX' a$$" thread on a Mac forum is the equivalent of saying "Yo mama's a whore and yo daddy's her pimp" in terms of intent. Or would you feel pleased if a group of Mac zealots barged in on a Winsupersite forum and started a flame session about how laughably primitive some WinXP feature was or how dumb Microsoft was to leave port 135 open for Blaster? That is to say, unless you are not one of the paid MS astroturfers, which btw. I find an appalling an childish practice and one of the reasons MS is losing ground in the server space (lack of credibility).

But I'll bite.

I for one, don't have anything against Windows or Office. They're widely used tools and they're good enough for 90% of the people out there (given that a large portion of that 90% has no idea that there are alternatives). I liked WindowsXP, as it was definitely more stable than NT. I like the ability in Windows to configure the interface to almost any extent, and I like the responsiveness of the GUI. I also think MS has done some good work in innovation (true innovation as opposed to politics) in the area of a task oriented approach. I appreciate the fact that almost all software packages are available for the platform. Office is very usable and is certainly a standard tool to a certain extent. Security has also, with certain notably bad exceptions, improved.

It's a usable platform. What I dislike are the activation measures, the lack of professional quality free developer tools (C#.Net alone costs as much a OS X 10.3) and the tendancy of Microsoft to make bad UI desicions such as the overabundance of diconnected dialogs for every feature. They seem to be torn between wanting to include every single check box and button they can and simply the interface at the same time, the results being sometimes chaotic.

Looking at the screenshots (and yes I know Aero was not included, but parts are already there in previous screenshots), I think Microsoft is going to go further along the approach of using tasks to guide users as well as including the classic look for those of us who don't need or want such things. I also think the GUI will have full Alpha blending and compositing such as Quartz, and will no doubt look better than XP's jagged corner Luna. It will surely be better than Quartz in some aspects and worse in others (I seriously doubt Paul Thurrot has ever seen and used a real OSX machine, given his comments). The embeddded media ability is something that OSX already has and I have never heard of Expose being demonstrated apart from the 3D interface experiments that MS did years ago which are siilar to 10.3's fast user switching. The sidebar is a useful addition (similar to the dock but far larger) in that it will allow developers to add services to applications and the OS. WinFS was also be a useful addition (speed/security) but I doubt that it will be without it's problems (FS crash and restore).

In short I think it will be an improvement and Apple should not be lax in the coming years (I agree that there should be consistency in the UI, Brushed Metal and Aqua together look strange), but it will not be some major revolution (as even X11/Linux should have alpha blending by then), except for platform zealots, but they tend to be the same whether they're using a Mac, a PC or even a C64.

[TC]

Originally posted by JLL:
Except that Microsoft didn't show any Expos� like features. I think he's mistaking Expos� for Quartz and Quartz has been here since 2000.

I thought I could smell bullsh�t but just wanted to check.

[MusicalTone]

Microsoft: all your inovation are belong to us.

[mbryda]

Just sent the author this:

I've been browsing your site for a little while today, looking for
information on Longhorn. As a current Windows Administrator, it is of
particular interest to me. However, I am also in a unique position -
having recently switched all my home systems away from Windows and to
Mac OSX, I have unique insights into the pros and cons of both
opertating systems from a management and usability standpoint,
especially since my wife just wants to be able to use the computer and
doesn't want it to get in the way. Reliability at home is my most
important criteria - I fix this stuff all day at work and don't want to
deal with it when I come home.

However, I must take issue with something you stated in the Longhorn
FAQ, which seems as if you have not really looked at OSX. Which, I can
understand, being that you make your living on Windows. However,
accurate information should always be presented.

[stripped FAQ quote for message length]

I would be hard-pressed to state that OSX is a classic desktop operating
system. Sure, the desktop metaphore is still there - it's pretty much the
best that we have at this point, and it works well for associating
computer "jargon" to something we interact with everyday. However, Apple
has made numerous enhancements to the desktop that Microsoft just refuses
to acknowlegde (maybe because of the roots of the 2 systems).

For example of things that are better done in OSX:

1) Start Menu/taskbar -
How un-intuitive is it to hit a Start button to shut down or restart your
computer? When a person sees that who has little computer experience,
they think it's for starting the computer or somethng. Having worked in
tech support, it's amazing how many people get confused by that.

Contrast that to the OSX dock, where all you see programs you put there,
with icons that magnify when you roll your mouse over them. If one is
running, there is a little triangle under it. Minimize windows and you
get a relatively live icon with the actual screen contents - useful for
distinguishing multiple open windows.

In OSX, the restart/logout options are under the Apple menu, as are most
other system-related items. A much better arrangement than burying them
in the start menu.

2) Desktop metaphor -
I really think this is better done in OSX than Windows. At first it did
take some getting used to, but after using it for a while, it is superior
because of the consistency. Menus are always at the top of the screen.
Always. That is a great thing when you get working with multiple windows
and apps. The menus are in the same place all the time.

Keyboard shortcuts are always consistent across OSX as well. Apple-H
hides the application. (What's the Windows minimise key?) Apple-W closes
the active window (comparted to Ctrl-F4 on Windows). Again, a better
consistency across apps. Windows does come close, but there are a few
things that it could do a lot better.

Another area that is superior on OSX is the handling of drives/removable
media. You don't have lots of drive letters cluttering up your Finder
(Explorer) windows. They are hidden until you put something in them and
then show up. A great idea. What do I care about a floppy drive until I
put something in it? I can't use a floppy drive without a disk, so don't
show it. Much better than having a string of drive letters in Explorer
and then trying to figure which one you put something into (as is the case
with some digital media readers, who can add up to 8 drive letters).

Finding things is equally easier. In OSX (Jaguar and Panther), every
finder window by default has a search box. Type in what you are looking
for and within seconds the files pop up. I can search a 60GB hard drive
in a couple seconds. Contrast what with Wiindows, where you must go
Start, Search, pick what you are looking for, and then search.

That's increased usability. When I can find anything I want immediately
in every Finder window, that's great usability. That increases my
productivity immensely. I won't even discuss how XP makes me feel like
I'm watching an ad for various MS products (MSN, .Net, etc, etc)
3) Core OS -

This is a hot topic right now, but the facts are that UNIX is much more
secure than Windows can ever hope to be. It still amazes me that a
company the size of MS can let bugs linger for over 10 years across all
versions of its operating system. That's not good, and reflects a
fundamental flaw in the design of the OS. I think a lot of it has to do
with the bundling of everything in the OS - IE, OE, WMP, etc. You don't
need to tightly integrate all that junk in the OS. Maybe that's by design
of Windows, but it's not a good one.

Most buffer issues in most UNIXes do not allow code to run unchecked, and
that's partly due to the structure of them. It's a structure that MS
should swallow its pride and adopt. I love when I install an application
that needs root privelages the OS asks me for a password - makes me feel
in control of my system.

Applications are another issue that OSX has the advantage in as well.
Most (if not all) applications are housed in a single file/bundle with
everything that that application needs to run. No putting this and or
that DLL over the place, no installation mightmares. Drag the app
anywhere on the system and run it - it will run. It may be a little more
inefficient than Windows' shared DLL model, but with today's huge hard
drives, that's not an issue. The stability alone is worth it.

Along those same lines, not having a registry is a beautiful thing, and
something MS should really get away from. I understand why it was
implemented "back in the day", but it is a very poor idea. In the OSX
world, every application writes preference files, which are XML text files
with the preferences (like the .INI files in Win 3.1). Have a problem
with an application - trash the preference file and you're back in
business. No mucking with the registry and risking corruption of the
system or application. A much more usable and reliable system.
------------------------------------------------
I could go on about the UI inconsistencies in OSX, but that would just
make this E-mail even longer.

I've probably rambled on and on enough for you - I just hope you can
appreciate the differences in the various OS's and maybe try a fair
comparison of OSX and XP/Longhorn and draw your own conclusions. If done
with an open mind, the comparison is interesting.

Apple and MS have done a lot to advance usability, and there are things
that Apple could do better and things that MS could to better. Saying
simply that MS is better is not accurate, as working on both systems day
in and day out leaves me wondering what MS was smoking when they designed
Windows. Some things are so obviously more convoluted than necessary it's
mind-boggling.

Should be interesting to see if I get a reply.

[ZackS]

Originally posted by freeandunmuzzled:
Quote:

"[PDC] attendees will receive a special Longhorn build that has the Aero bits removed, and Microsoft executives will provide only a special demonstration preview of Aero during [...] Bill Gates's keynote address"

http://www.winnetmag.com/Article/Art...367/40367.html

The REAL Aero demo also contains a shot of this "brushed-esque" theme.

[Xeo]

Wonderful title! I'm moving this to the lounge. I'd just close it for having 2 strikes, but there is active discussion going on so I won't.

[theolein]

Originally posted by mbryda:
Just sent the author this:
...

Keyboard shortcuts are always consistent across OSX as well. Apple-H
hides the application. (What's the Windows minimise key?) Apple-W closes
the active window (comparted to Ctrl-F4 on Windows). Again, a better
consistency across apps. Windows does come close, but there are a few
things that it could do a lot better.

...

This is one area where I actually prefer the Windows way of doing things. Alt-F4 closes the active windows until there are no more open, then the application, then eventually brings up the shutdown menu. Windowskey-m minimizes everything to get you to the desktop, Shift-Windowskey-m brings them all back to maximised (I think Alt-Windowskey-m minimizes the current window). Pressing the Alt key allows you to move around in the menu and tabbing around controls in a dialog works across the whole platform. I think this is one area where Windows is more efficient than OSX.

[Mediaman_12]

From what I have red Searching is one of the tings that's been turned in to the main way of interacting with the files.
Here(Scroll down for the interesting info)
MS seams to want to get rid of the traditional 'files within folders, within folders etc' method of organising files on the computer. What it looks like is that everything is stored 'flat' on the HD. Files etc. are organised dynamically ether by automatic or user entered filters. The automatic filters create something called 'Stacks' that seam similar to the 'piles' concepts that we where discussing a few months back.
The Idea revolves round a fast search/filter system (like in Panther) with metadata attached to each file. Basically take iTunes and expand it to include the entire file system.

[Sven G]

FYI, the Mac OS X vs. Windows XP web site has recently been updated to reflect the new features of OS X 10.3 Panther - still no Longhorn, however...

[mbryda]

Originally posted by theolein:
This is one area where I actually prefer the Windows way of doing things. Alt-F4 closes the active windows until there are no more open, then the application, then eventually brings up the shutdown menu.

Alt-F4 shuts the application and all windows. Ctrl-F4 closes the windows, then the app.

[TC]

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
The automatic filters create something called 'Stacks' that seam similar to the 'piles' concepts that we where discussing a few months back.

Similar doesn't quite do it justice.

I really wish we could get this kind of stuff in X soon. Apple hired the BeOS guy and we already have super fast searching inside folders.

Not sure if we need stacks but I would love to have dynamic folders which generate their content based on some search criteria.

This would be great if you could also use it alongside the folder hierarchy. So when you go inside the folder you get the search results but still contained inside their original folder hierarchy.

I started a thread about this in the OS X forum since Apple has added something like this to Xcode:
http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=185242

[freeandunmuzzled]

Originally posted by Xeo:
Wonderful title! I'm moving this to the lounge. I'd just close it for having 2 strikes, but there is active discussion going on so I won't.

I'm sorry. I apologise for the title - it was a paste instead of cut keyboard error.

FYI I am not trolling. I really am interested in what is going on in the MS camp and how it might affect OS X and I am pleased to see some serious thoughts coming out here.

Obviously Mr. Thurrot is a fanboy and one must take everything he writes with a generous dose of salt, but its about the only source for this stuff.

Anyway, today he has some photos from the keynote...

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/...ro_keynote.asp

It appears the entire 'frame' of the window has been given a frosted glass look. Layout is the same it seems (the earlier crappy looking pics were probably to enable UI to be worked on independently of visuals) so there's still an awful lot of stuff going on in every window!

(There's some video too but I just got audio when I tried it )

[TC]

For anyone who remembers the arguments about Quartz Extreme being AGP only and requiring 16MB of VRAM you will love the specs for longhorn:

This means Longhorn is going to have some heady requirements, at least compared with today's Windows. The bare minimum Longhorn system will have to be able to display at least 1024 x 768 with 32-bit color, and it must include a hardware accelerated 3D video card with at least 64 MB of RAM. But this is the base requirement: To take advantage of the fun eye candy Microsoft has planned, you'll need advanced video hardware with at least 128 MB of RAM. Kerry Hammil, a Program Manager with the Windows Client Platform, abstracted this somewhat by stating that the lower-end requirements were roughly analogous to the kind of system needed to run DirectX 7-level technologies. The upper-end requirements are more akin to DirectX 9, she said.

Also, another nugget from a guy working on longhorn, this stuff sounds hot:

"There are some cool UI uses for window scaling," Hammil noted. "We could have live but iconified versions of windows that appear when you're searching for windows. Windows can be grouped, and minimized together, where windows are represented as shrunken versions of the original window."

Wow! Can you imagine that?

All this comes from this page:
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase...eview_2003.asp

Finally I have to say that I like the look of Aero in this shot, reminds me of minority report, but I'd like to see how nice it is when you have lots of windows open:
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/r...keynote_06.jpg

The metal elements and transparency do seem to be quite openly ripping off Apple. Even the word Aero is similar to Aqua, 4 letters + three vowels.

[- - e r i k - -]

At Microsoft HQ:

Boss: Hmmm, Apple has done some cool thing with transparency. How can we rip that off?

Blind UI designer: How about we make every window frame transparent? Now THAT'S different!

Boss: I like it. Oh and make sure you copy that exposiwatchamacallit too. You know, the shrunkenness. But make it different.

Blind UI designer: I'll get right on it.

[talisker]

For a start it's not particularly fair to compare a current operating system like OSX that we all know and love with some vague mockups of an incomplete future system.

I can't help thinking that most of the criticism being voiced here is simply due to the fact that Longhorn is an MS operating system, and as such has a "Windows feel" to it. Of course. It is Windows. I don't here any criticism of OSX because it's got that "Apple feel", which undeniably it does, but that's simply because most people in here like macs, rather than PCs.

So what if it hasn't got Expose-like features. Neither did OSX Jaguar and I didn't hear a chorus of dissaproval over that. So what if it appears to "copy" some OSX features. That's what happens. Just as Apple copied the Windows task bar (albeit in a snazzier form) for the OSX dock.

Looking at some of these screenshots it looks quite nice I think, certainly as good as the beta of OSX looked in its early days.

In my opinion the biggest failure of MS operating systems is their shocking lack of security and neverending patches, although if Apple supplied 95% of the market I'm not sure the situation would be wildly different. The look is simply a matter of personal preference.