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Just thought of a possible evil, downside to the iPad.
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downinflames68
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Feb 1, 2010, 04:35 AM
 
Typing. Yeah, you can get a real keyboard, but the majority of users will probably just use the on screen keyboard. Yes, it works... however, I know a lot of us here have iPhones. And yeah, I can text decently on it. However, would I want to write out something as long as a paragraph on it? Not really. Even this post, for example, would be far far more frustrating to type on an ipad, in comparison to a regular keyboard. My point?

Imagine a large percentage of "consumers" switching to the iPad, or a device like it. Yes, maybe it is more convenient to consume data, but when they do want to contribute, to post on a forum, to write an email, it'll probably be even MORE brief, even shorter, even more vague with fewer words. Now imagine the effect this will have on the net. More stupid, ultra-short posts, fewer lengthy, well-thought out replies. Now imagine growing up with one of these things. Instead of a desktop or a laptop, your parents buy you this. Yeah, you can type. Sort of. But really you'd rather just watch youtube, and beg them to download new music or apps. You can't even get an app from your friends, so you have to pay for everything, which from a very young age will burn in the idea of commercialization/consumerism, not sharing, not contributing, not thinking. Only consuming existing data.

Thoughts?
     
iMOTOR
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Feb 1, 2010, 04:42 AM
 
Over the next hundred years or so, the human species will evolve to type on the iPad much faster though a process called Co-Adaptation.
     
Chuckit
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Feb 1, 2010, 04:58 AM
 
Your fear assumes that long-windedness means intelligence. Personally, I find brevity is the hallmark of good writing.
Chuck
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downinflames68  (op)
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Feb 1, 2010, 05:30 AM
 
Chuckit... yes and no. Imagine this place, where a every post is no longer than a sentence. I think it would quickly devolve into ridiculousness. Case in point? +1.
     
ghporter
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Feb 1, 2010, 08:27 AM
 
I would argue for "concision" over brevity. Too brief allows the possibility of inaccuracy, while something that is concise does not-concision assumes that the writer manages to capture all the accuracy necessary.

There is a downside to concision; you wind up using shorthand and jargon a lot more when you work hard at being that concise. But brevity requires a lot of effort too.

I would like to see if the on-screen keyboard lends itself to two-handed typing, say with the device sitting on one's lap at some appropriate angle. If that were the case, I think instead of decreasing people's skills the device will alter them toward lap-typing. Which could actually be a positive adaptation.

But back to Chuckit's point, I agree that being long-winded doesn't necessarily indicate intelligence. Look at a lot of my posts! Tight text can be much more intelligent because it takes more mental effort to boil things down to their most essential elements in a way that gets those elements across effectively.

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Feb 1, 2010, 09:32 AM
 
I <3 Glenn.
     
Laminar
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Feb 1, 2010, 09:36 AM
 
Wow! This is a point that the other 10+ iPad threads COMPLETELY forgot about!
     
Spheric Harlot
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Feb 1, 2010, 09:44 AM
 
This is Rob.

He's creative. He also has the benefit of perpetual n00b status and cannot be expected to research prior art when the brainfart strikes him.
     
turtle777
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Feb 1, 2010, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Chuckit... yes and no. Imagine this place, where a every post is no longer than a sentence..
It already exists. It's called Twitter, and is absolutely useless.

-t
     
Chuckit
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Feb 1, 2010, 12:18 PM
 
Less so than Facebook.
Chuck
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Spheric Harlot
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Feb 1, 2010, 01:14 PM
 
In both cases, YMMV.

Mine certainly does.
     
Demonhood
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Feb 1, 2010, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
It already exists. It's called Twitter, and is absolutely useless.

-t
no so. i've found twitter extremely useful for instant community based news. has helped me keep informed during a few disasters.
     
Mrjinglesusa
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Feb 1, 2010, 01:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Typing. Yeah, you can get a real keyboard, but the majority of users will probably just use the on screen keyboard. Yes, it works... however, I know a lot of us here have iPhones. And yeah, I can text decently on it. However, would I want to write out something as long as a paragraph on it? Not really. Even this post, for example, would be far far more frustrating to type on an ipad, in comparison to a regular keyboard. My point?
A) the onscreen iPad keyboard is MUCH larger than the iPhone onscreen keyboard so comparing typing on the two is asinine

B) have you typed on an iPad keyboard? No, you haven't. So how can you say, "Even this post, for example, would be far far more frustrating to type on an ipad, in comparison to a regular keyboard"?

     
iomatic
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Feb 1, 2010, 01:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Your fear assumes that long-windedness means intelligence. Personally, I find brevity is the hallmark of good writing.
You're too wordy.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 1, 2010, 01:27 PM
 
Bashing twitter is so 2008.
     
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Feb 1, 2010, 01:47 PM
 
Bashing people who bash Twitter is so 2009.

I like Twitter BTW. A LOT.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 1, 2010, 01:49 PM
 
Bashing Railroader never goes out of style.
     
Railroader
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Feb 1, 2010, 01:51 PM
 
touche'
     
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Feb 1, 2010, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Bashing Railroader never goes out of style.
What if he's wearing parachute pants? Those are timeless.
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downinflames68  (op)
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Feb 1, 2010, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
B) have you typed on an iPad keyboard? No, you haven't. So how can you say, "Even this post, for example, would be far far more frustrating to type on an ipad, in comparison to a regular keyboard"?
A few reasons.

1. I have a brain.
2. I'm a designer. People are faster, and have muscle memory, when there is something to id their fingers to let them know they are in the right spots. Physically, I can feel the little nubs on the f and j keys, which help locate my hands. I can also feelt he edges of each button, which allows my hands to adjust themselves as they type. This is why a physical keyboard will always be faster than a touch keyboard.

Think.
     
downinflames68  (op)
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Feb 1, 2010, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Wow! This is a point that the other 10+ iPad threads COMPLETELY forgot about!
I didn't see it anywhere. And I read a lot of those threads.
     
ort888
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Feb 1, 2010, 02:17 PM
 
There are a few not-so-ideal trends I see the iPad ushering in.

While there are a lot of advantages to a completely closed computing environment, there are also a lot of downsides.

I'm not so much complaining about these realities, so much as interested to see where we go.

The iPad is a big step into the world of appliance computing... where the computer part of the computer moves into the background and the end user experience is whittled down to the bare essentials.

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
Chuckit
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Feb 1, 2010, 02:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
A few reasons.

1. I have a brain.
2. I'm a designer. People are faster, and have muscle memory, when there is something to id their fingers to let them know they are in the right spots. Physically, I can feel the little nubs on the f and j keys, which help locate my hands. I can also feelt he edges of each button, which allows my hands to adjust themselves as they type. This is why a physical keyboard will always be faster than a touch keyboard.

Think.
I don't know of any studies to support your claim that muscle memory requires "nubs." Once you have typed on the iPad keyboard long enough, you will develop muscle memory as long as the keys are in consistent positions. It might still take slightly longer to orient yourself before you start typing, but this is true of many keyboards as well and doesn't seem to cripple people significantly.
Chuck
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Mrjinglesusa
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Feb 1, 2010, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
A few reasons.

1. I have a brain.
2. I'm a designer. People are faster, and have muscle memory, when there is something to id their fingers to let them know they are in the right spots. Physically, I can feel the little nubs on the f and j keys, which help locate my hands. I can also feelt he edges of each button, which allows my hands to adjust themselves as they type. This is why a physical keyboard will always be faster than a touch keyboard.

Think.

Having a brain has nothing to do with drawing a conclusion based on absolutely no facts. You may very well be correct that it will be "far far more frustrating to type on an iPad". However, until you have actually used and typed on one, you cannot draw this conclusion.

Muscle memory has to do with repetitive actions, not "when there is something to id their fingers to let them know they are in the right spots". All the "nubs" on the keyboard do is allow you to orientate your fingers without looking at the keyboard. They have nothing to do with "muscle memory".

Therefore, as long as you glance at the iPad keyboard and orientate your fingers correctly before typing, you should be able to type relatively fast on the iPad because the muscle memory you have developed from typing on a physical keyboard should translate to a virtual keyboard, providing your fingers are orientated correctly.

You can't do this on an iPhone only because the virtual keyboard is too small, not because it is missing "nubs".
     
Chuckit
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Feb 1, 2010, 03:34 PM
 
Actually, my Sidekick-addicted friend was astonished the other day when she noticed that I could type as fast on my iPhone as she can on her physical keyboard. And this despite the fact that a virtual keypad actually is at a disadvantage when the keys are significantly smaller than your fingers. I don't think typing on the iPad will be much of a problem at all, though I wouldn't want to do it for long stretches of time without a physical keyboard just because having your keyboard on the same plane as your display is not at all ergonomic.
Chuck
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The Final Dakar
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Feb 1, 2010, 03:37 PM
 
Just wait til the first person complains that the on-screen keys are too big.
     
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Feb 6, 2010, 04:35 AM
 
If you're still typing on a QWERTY keyboard, does it matter what your opinion on ergonomics is?
     
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Feb 6, 2010, 08:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by macaddict0001 View Post
If you're still typing on a QWERTY keyboard, does it matter what your opinion on ergonomics is?
It does. Even though QWERTY was at least in legend designed to slow down typing, it is fairly straightforward to use any QWERTY keyboard safely and efficiently. The degree of efficiency is inversely proportional to the amount of adaptation you need to accept in order to use the keyboard safely though. To me, the biggest stumbling block to a full-screen iPad keyboard's ergonomic use on one's lap or tabletop would be how easily one could read the screen.

Side note: anyone who does not touch-type has an entirely different set of challenges both ergonomically and procedurally from people who do touch-type.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Feb 6, 2010, 04:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
To me, the biggest stumbling block to a full-screen iPad keyboard's ergonomic use on one's lap or tabletop would be how easily one could read the screen.
With Apple's funky cover, I think typing and reading simultaneously will be fine. I also suspect the IPS screen will help readability a lot.
     
downinflames68  (op)
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Feb 6, 2010, 06:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I don't know of any studies to support your claim that muscle memory requires "nubs." Once you have typed on the iPad keyboard long enough, you will develop muscle memory as long as the keys are in consistent positions. It might still take slightly longer to orient yourself before you start typing, but this is true of many keyboards as well and doesn't seem to cripple people significantly.
Muscle memory, sure. But there is still no indexing. On a physical keyboard, you can tell when your fingers hit the edge of a key surface, and make small corrections as you type to continue to keep your fingers where you want them to go. With a totally flat surface, this is NOT POSSIBLE.

Again, there is no way a touch keyboard will compete with a physical one. PERIOD. I've taken many, many human factors classes that deal with designing things around the human body, read many books, so I do happen to know what I am talking about, with this subject.
     
downinflames68  (op)
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Feb 6, 2010, 06:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
Having a brain has nothing to do with drawing a conclusion based on absolutely no facts. You may very well be correct that it will be "far far more frustrating to type on an iPad". However, until you have actually used and typed on one, you cannot draw this conclusion.

Muscle memory has to do with repetitive actions, not "when there is something to id their fingers to let them know they are in the right spots". All the "nubs" on the keyboard do is allow you to orientate your fingers without looking at the keyboard. They have nothing to do with "muscle memory".

Therefore, as long as you glance at the iPad keyboard and orientate your fingers correctly before typing, you should be able to type relatively fast on the iPad because the muscle memory you have developed from typing on a physical keyboard should translate to a virtual keyboard, providing your fingers are orientated correctly.

You can't do this on an iPhone only because the virtual keyboard is too small, not because it is missing "nubs".
Yes, I can. There is no indexing, no way to adjust to the keyboard as you are typing. Even moving from one physical keyboard to another usually impacts typing speed, as the styles and tactile responses of the different types/shapes/actions differ. With an on screen keyboard, you are at a severe disadvantage. That is not to say SOMEBODY might be able to type faster than me on one, but in GENERAL, it will be much slower/poorer. The nubs on a physical keyboard help "locate" or "index" your hands in the correct position. So do the edges of each physical key. An onscreen keyboard lacks both. Your muscle memory WILL TRANSLATE, but due to the fact that you are missing any indexing locations, and the edges of the keys, it is a disadvantage.

I suggest you read this:

Amazon.com: The Measure of Man and Woman: Human Factors in Design (9780471099550): Alvin R. Tilley, Henry Dreyfuss Associates: Books

and this:

Amazon.com: Introduction to Human Factors Engineering (2nd Edition) (9780131837362): Christopher D. Wickens, John D. Lee, Yili Liu, Sallie Gordon-Becker: Books

and this:

Amazon.com: Human Factors Methods: A Practical Guide for Engineering And Design (9780754646617): Neville A. Stanton, Paul M. Salmon, Guy H. Walker, Chris Baber, Daniel P. Jenkins: Books

Then we can talk. Til then, you are but an armchair general.
     
downinflames68  (op)
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Feb 6, 2010, 06:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by macaddict0001 View Post
If you're still typing on a QWERTY keyboard, does it matter what your opinion on ergonomics is?
If you're referring to human factors as ergonomics, does it matter what YOUR opinion is?

Learn the difference before you respond.
     
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Feb 6, 2010, 08:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Yes, I can. There is no indexing, no way to adjust to the keyboard as you are typing. Even moving from one physical keyboard to another usually impacts typing speed, as the styles and tactile responses of the different types/shapes/actions differ.
Rob speaketh the truth. This is why Doof went out and bought a large stock of the old proper keyboards on the day Apple changed to the new crappy thin things.
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Feb 6, 2010, 10:41 PM
 
The science is behind both Rob and Doofy. Keyboarding is a physical task that is learned through motor learning: you don't learn it like new facts, you learn it by practice, practice, practice. This is why PC netbooks and those ".85" keyboard mini notebooks were really a problem (and why the latter died out); you learn where the keys are in a standard pitch keyboard and that's where your fingers go. Some people can learn the skills to use a keyboard with each hand independently, and they can transition to one of those weird "Natural" keyboards without problems. Except that they're bunk because whatever good they do for your wrists they take away by cranking your elbows at odd angles.

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downinflames68  (op)
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Feb 6, 2010, 11:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
....can transition to one of those weird "Natural" keyboards without problems. Except that they're bunk because whatever good they do for your wrists they take away by cranking your elbows at odd angles.
Not really. They provide a lot more neutral angles for most joints in the upper limbs. They would push your elbows out if you had the keyboard way too close to you.
     
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Feb 7, 2010, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Not really. They provide a lot more neutral angles for most joints in the upper limbs. They would push your elbows out if you had the keyboard way too close to you.
Precisely. And since most people don't have a clue about "neutral angles," they adopt that gawky, elbows out position and think they're doing themselves a favor. As with any "ergonomic" device, it takes training and proper application to make these keyboards work properly for the user, and Microsoft doesn't include anything like "sufficient instructions" for where to position the Natural Keyboard, nor what your elbows should be doing when you use it.

The vast majority of people's "computer desks" are ergonomics nightmares. Adding a Natural Keyboard to such a setup just puts a little lipstick on the sow.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Feb 7, 2010, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Rob speaketh the truth. This is why Doof went out and bought a large stock of the old proper keyboards on the day Apple changed to the new crappy thin things.
The sticky, awful, doughy white bastard finger-fatiguers? YUCK!

I'm working on one right now, since I've just rebuilt the studio and can't justify throwing another €50 at a keyboard when I have a working one here, but damn this thing is awful.

The MacBook keyboards and their USB counterparts are WAY faster and MUCH less fatiguing.

Given the choice, I'd be on my old ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II, but that's impractical for a number of reasons.

This thing, however, is a piece of shit - and that's from a keyboard player who's pretty much used to adapting to ALL SORTS of different key action, from Casiotone, accordion and Clavinet to old key pedestal-revision Rhodes.
     
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Feb 7, 2010, 05:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The sticky, awful, doughy white bastard finger-fatiguers? YUCK!
Sticky? What the heck have you been doing with that then?

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I'm working on one right now, since I've just rebuilt the studio and can't justify throwing another €50 at a keyboard when I have a working one here, but damn this thing is awful.

The MacBook keyboards and their USB counterparts are WAY faster and MUCH less fatiguing.
Not for me. But then I'm a guitarist/bassist, not a pansy weak-fingered keys player!

(Plus, I like a larger return key, which we got on the old UK white keyboards and don't get on the new thin things)
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Feb 7, 2010, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Sticky? What the heck have you been doing with that then?
"Sticky" as in gummy and occasionally reticent.

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Not for me. But then I'm a guitarist/bassist, not a pansy weak-fingered keys player!

(Plus, I like a larger return key, which we got on the old UK white keyboards and don't get on the new thin things)
     
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Feb 7, 2010, 10:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Your fear assumes that long-windedness means intelligence. Personally, I find brevity is the hallmark of good writing.
Bollocks.
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