[koogz]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
it's funny how when it comes to financial matters,oohh let's say like paying taxes etc., (most) people who claim that truth and 'reality' are completely subjective, and everybody's 'facts' are just the same, all of a sudden become hardcore materialists...

- The government is made up of mortal men and women who are fallable.
- God is infallable.

If you are taxed into poverty, then how on earth are you going to help your fellow man? I don't look to the government to tell me what to do with my money.

God wouldn't tax me more than I could handle. Government would and does.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zigzag:
I simply believe it's a good idea to understand its limitations. That's not a particularly earthshaking idea, either.

Limitations?

Examples plz.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by zigzag:
Wasting each other's time in the sense that it's unresolvable - I don't accept the notion that one reality is as good as another, or that the concept of "fact" is so malleable as to include anything anyone asserts as "true."

This is just a vague thought, but I wonder if there's any harm in the willingness to suspend one's typical approach to truth and knowledge. I'm not talking about any harm coming from the religious belief itself - although that could be, it's what people usually talk about.

But I'm talking about how it could put a crack in one's rationality that extends to other aspects of life. Probably not, given that there are plenty of very smart religious people, but I wonder. I think about our (America's) overwhelming belief in creationism. But that's not really the right test, because that could simply stem directly from the religious literalist belief itself. The real test would be whether supernatural religious beliefs are associated with other questionable beliefs, like ESP or astrology or Dr. Phil.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by koogz:
You believe there is more to life, yet you believe there is nothing after? That makes no sense. That is like looking at the Billions and Billions of Galaxies and saying, there is no life out there, it's only us...

What I was saying was each day is more fulfilling than the next, each day I spend with my daughter is a better day than the day before, regardless if it was a "good or bad" day it is better and I gain more and more, joy life and happiness.

I am perfectly happy with life and with this life, things aren't perfect, no society is or ever will be, our nature may snuff us out in the end and that is fine, a good chapter in evolution we are, indeed damaging and perhaps the final chapter but good none the less.

After all of this, yes I do believe it is over, this is all we get and a lot of people are fascinated with the after that they spend little time enjoying living.

For billions of years we have had no consciousness of self, or anything around us, when we die I do believe it to be the same.

[koogz]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
What I was saying was each day is more fulfilling than the next, each day I spend with my daughter is a better day than the day before, regardless if it was a "good or bad" day it is better and I gain more and more, joy life and happiness.

I am perfectly happy with life and with this life, things aren't perfect, no society is or ever will be, our nature may snuff us out in the end and that is fine, a good chapter in evolution we are, indeed damaging and perhaps the final chapter but good none the less.

After all of this, yes I do believe it is over, this is all we get and a lot of people are fascinated with the after that they spend little time enjoying living.

For billions of years we have had no consciousness of self, or anything around us, when we die I do believe it to be the same.

I live every day as if it were my last, on earth.
I disagree with the 'no consciousness ' argument. Do you have a subconscious? What happens when it takes control at night when you are asleep? Don't know? Does that mean it does nothing and or does not exist?

There is more to life than, birth; life; death. There is another consiousness, just as there are other dimensions that we are not capable of seeing, but are capable of discovering.

(i.e., A shadow of a 4th dimensional object is 3 dimensional and the shadow of a 3 dimensional object is 2 dimensions.)

Many discoveries to this day perplex me, but I know they work. I don't understand per se how, but I know they work.

How does a wireless phone, network do what it does?
Fax machines?
e-mail?
gravity?
the sun being a giant fussion reactor perpetually glowing and burning in the vacuum and cold of space...

I don't understand a great deal, but am willing to accept them, because they work. I can also accept other things that I cannot yet or maybe never will comprehend in this life or exisitence until I pass through the next portal.

It's like walking on a ship, and knowing there are decks below, but until you pass through the portal to the next, you can't prove it.

There are many analogies and clues around us as to the nature of our world and existence. Too many to count or recall in this thread. Representations are there to see, it just takes you looking at them to actuall 'see' them.

Look at your daughter. Her birth, her life, and the inevitable someday, hopefully many, many, many years. Would you have her believe this is it? I couldn't do that.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by koogz:
I disagree with the 'no consciousness ' argument. Do you have a subconscious? What happens when it takes control at night when you are asleep? Don't know? Does that mean it does nothing and or does not exist?

Your subconscious is just your conscious in another state, when you die both are done, the receptors stop firing, the nerves die it is over, you conscious state doesn't remember anything from before the receptors were firing, what makes you think it will remember after they stop firing and you are worm food?

It's like walking on a ship, and knowing there are decks below, but until you pass through the portal to the next, you can't prove it.

Agreed, you can't prove it but I what I see around me is billions of years of progress, I see me here in a wink of time, I see no conscious of other animals who lived in those billions of years, does this prove anything? no, certainly not, but I can form a pretty good hypothesis of what will happen to me in a few years and what my conscious state will be in say another 10 billion years, nothing.

There are many analogies and clues around us as to the nature of our world and existence. Too many to count or recall in this thread. Representations are there to see, it just takes you looking at them to actuall 'see' them.

Well, being someone who works with the world and with biology each day, I think you are trying to find something. You are not content with what time you have and seem to be striving for more? I am actually happy to be part of this sick yet wonderful world, who knows I could be made of parts of star stuff from a far away galaxy, or part of a great poet from thousands of years ago, we are al a part and will always be, consciously? no, that is asking for more than life can provide I think.

Look at your daughter. Her birth, her life, and the inevitable someday, hopefully many, many, many years. Would you have her believe this is it? I couldn't do that.

Yes, this is what she believes, I believe she is a more along the lines of deitism than myself.

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by macintologist

kids reading Harry Potter and jerking off at will (like most normal teenagers).

I have read all five Harry potter books never wanted to do that.