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Changing where "Downloads" point to without using symlinks? (Page 2)
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starman  (op)
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Oct 29, 2007, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
How is that apparent? I've looked around and haven't found any docs stating that you must use ~/Downloads for downloaded files. I mean, maybe I just haven't found the right one yet, but they're not being very obvious about it in any case.
There's nothing that says Word, et al has to use Documents either. That doesn't mean you should put the Documents in ~/Library.

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Oct 29, 2007, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by OliverTwist View Post
It doesn't matter what Apple wants - that's the point of preference files. Web browsers and other internet-enabled apps would be stupid to follow Apple's default after you've explicitly overrode it.
Are you being intentionally dense?

I challenge you to tell me any preference file that maps to Documents on a clean install. If your precious preference files are supposed to run the show, then why isn't there one for Documents?

I just installed Leopard on a new machine here at work. I did a grep on Documents in ~/Library/Preferences. Only dock, recentitems, and sidebarlists match. Now, by YOUR logic, there should be some magic preference that says "If I'm Acrobat, I should follow iWork's preference file". Well, there isn't one for iWork/Documents. Therefore, I should *GASP* probably store my PDFs in.....

drum roll....

~/Documents

And why? Because Apple put it there as a convenient place for DOCUMENTS to be stored.

Same with Downloads, and Music, and Pictures.

And by the way, until you actually launch iTunes and iPhoto, there's no default preference for where music and pictures are to be stored. So if you're using, say, Audio Hijack Pro, where do you think you should store your audio files?

I'll give you a hint: it starts with an 'M' and Apple puts it there by default.

You're making it sound like all the static folders are a nuisance.

right?
( Last edited by starman; Oct 29, 2007 at 02:27 PM. )

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starman  (op)
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Oct 29, 2007, 02:43 PM
 
Ok, I found proof about this "don't use Safari" thing.

I changed my preference in Safari to point to a folder I made called "Other Downloads".

Quit Safari
Quit iChat

iChat STILL used ~/Downloads.

So there, I broke it. Proof that Apple doesn't use Safari's preferences, and neither should anything else.

Reference:

Apple - Mac OS X Leopard - Features - 300+ New Features

"Downloads Stack

Find your downloads quickly in one dedicated stack. Downloads from Safari, iChat, and Mail are automatically saved to the Downloads stack. Say goodbye to desktop clutter.
"

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ginoledesma
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Oct 29, 2007, 03:29 PM
 
Say goodbye to desktop clutter
That quotation actually reveals a lot. Most apps tend to have some internal defaults of their own, and a sane default in the past was Desktop because it was assumed that folder would never, ever go away. Apple has simply put in a new "default" folder, which is Downloads.

Any sane app should always fall back to it's own internal default setting in the event the user's preference is unavailable (common if the destination is a remote volume, for example). Most apps that I've come across (e.g. Acquisition, Firefox, etc) set this to Desktop, which again is a sensible choice. And for cases where it's pointing to a non-mounted volume, some apps either display an error message, whereas others recreate the path to said folder.

The insistence of making ~/Downloads a non-removable folder makes sense in this regard -- Apple wants to reduce desktop clutter and instead use "stacks" for the downloads pile. As before, it's still possible to change it. And as before, you couldn't delete the original folder without repercussions.

This might come as a "my way or the highway" attitude, but it's still possible to work around it. As for Apple's own apps breaking when the folder is present, I'd say that's more of a bug on their app and a failure on their part as developers. Apps should always do some sanity checks when reading/writing data. The cardinal sin for every application has always been, is, and always will be data loss/corruption.
     
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Oct 29, 2007, 04:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Are you being intentionally dense?

I challenge you to tell me any preference file that maps to Documents on a clean install. If your precious preference files are supposed to run the show, then why isn't there one for Documents?
You really are a loose cannon - each post you make is more bizarre and arbitrary than the last. When did I ever mention Documents? This entire thread is about Downloads, for God's sake. It would be great if Apple were consistent like that, but that wasn't my decision. I'm finished talking to you.
     
starman  (op)
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Oct 29, 2007, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by OliverTwist View Post
You really are a loose cannon - each post you make is more bizarre and arbitrary than the last. When did I ever mention Documents? This entire thread is about Downloads, for God's sake. It would be great if Apple were consistent like that, but that wasn't my decision. I'm finished talking to you.
Keep digging that hole

It doesn't matter what Apple wants - that's the point of preference files.
So if it doesn't matter what Apple wants, then why make undeletable static folders in the first place? What makes Downloads different than Documents? If preference files are supposed to dictate what goes where, then why isn't there a preference specifically for Documents or Music or Pictures?

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wr11
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Oct 29, 2007, 05:34 PM
 
Just to add some more wood to this fire... Wouldn't "Downloads" be different on a localized release of the OS?

I'm guessing that Apps are supposed to read the system-wide preference for the downloads directory - not the directory itself. Some developers, Apple included, might forget to use that setting for some reason. I can only imagine that if said-app just defaulted to ~/Downloads it would probably recreate the directory if it was missing.
     
starman  (op)
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Oct 29, 2007, 05:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by wr11 View Post
Just to add some more wood to this fire... Wouldn't "Downloads" be different on a localized release of the OS?

I'm guessing that Apps are supposed to read the system-wide preference for the downloads directory - not the directory itself. Some developers, Apple included, might forget to use that setting for some reason. I can only imagine that if said-app just defaulted to ~/Downloads it would probably recreate the directory if it was missing.
It would be different, but well written apps won't care. There's usually an API parameter to handle this. eg: FSFindFolder will get you the localized name of a folder based on the parameters you pick from here:

Folder Manager Reference

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Oct 29, 2007, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
You seem to forget that Safari on Leopard points to the Download folder by default. Therefore, Apple obviously wants the Downloads folder to be where everything gets, you know, DOWNLOADED to.
No, Apple wants everything downloaded to the download folder specified in the internet config settings. This happens to be the Downloads folder in Leopard. As you have no doubt discovered, when you change Safari's download folder settings, it changes the setting in internet config, which changes the setting for all apps.

You've told me before your in a technical job, but honestly, I think a 5th grader could understand why this is a non-issue.
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starman  (op)
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Oct 29, 2007, 05:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
No, Apple wants everything downloaded to the download folder specified in the internet config settings. This happens to be the Downloads folder in Leopard. As you have no doubt discovered, when you change Safari's download folder settings, it changes the setting in internet config, which changes the setting for all apps.

You've told me before your in a technical job, but honestly, I think a 5th grader could understand why this is a non-issue.
Apparently you didn't read the rest of the thread where I tried this AND THE OTHER APPLE APPS DID NOT CHANGE.

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Oct 29, 2007, 05:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
iChat STILL used ~/Downloads.
Great. As a developer you should now understand this is a bug. Bugs to to http://bugreporter.apple.com . Have a good day.

(But if you'd like to stop standing on principle, there is a preference in iChat to change this.)
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starman  (op)
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Oct 29, 2007, 05:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Great. As a developer you should now understand this is a bug. Bugs to to http://bugreporter.apple.com . Have a good day.

(But if you'd like to stop standing on principle, there is a preference in iChat to change this.)
WHAT?

I thought you all said that Safari's preference is supposed to make all the apps change. Now you tell me there's a preference to change in THAT app also? You basically PROVED MY POINT!

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goMac
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Oct 29, 2007, 05:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I thought you all said that Safari's preference is supposed to make all the apps change. Now you tell me there's a preference to change in THAT app also? You basically PROVED MY POINT!
iChat should respect Safari's settings. That it doesn't is a bug. So report the bug so Apple can fix it and stop whining.
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starman  (op)
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Oct 29, 2007, 05:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
iChat should respect Safari's settings. That it doesn't is a bug. So report the bug so Apple can fix it and stop whining.
If it's a bug, why does Apple say that iChat now uses the Downloads folder? You're essentially being the same obtuse person you are in the gaming forum.

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Oct 29, 2007, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I thought you all said that Safari's preference is supposed to make all the apps change. Now you tell me there's a preference to change in THAT app also? You basically PROVED MY POINT!
Fine, you win — you can't delete the Downloads folder because then you'd have to change a preference in iChat. Good grief, I've never seen someone fight so hard not to be able to do something.
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Oct 29, 2007, 05:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
If it's a bug, why does Apple say that iChat now uses the Downloads folder? You're essentially being the same obtuse person you are in the gaming forum.
You're right. They should have plastered a bunch of info about internet config on their page instead. That REALLY would have been clear to your average Joe Six Pack.
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starman  (op)
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Oct 29, 2007, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Fine, you win — you can't delete the Downloads folder because then you'd have to change a preference in iChat. Good grief, I've never seen someone fight so hard not to be able to do something.
Chuckit, it's the fact that people don't understand the whole problem. "Change Safari and everything else will go with it" isn't the answer to the problem for Leopard. Ok, it worked in previous operating systems, but this isn't Tiger anymore.

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goMac
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Oct 29, 2007, 06:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Chuckit, it's the fact that people don't understand the whole problem. "Change Safari and everything else will go with it" isn't the answer to the problem for Leopard. Ok, it worked in previous operating systems, but this isn't Tiger anymore.
Nothing has changed in Leopard. Internet config is supposed to still control where downloads go. Nothing has changed in this respect at all. If iChat is not respecting that setting, you should file a bug report.

See look, internet config's download setting is still in 10.5, just like it was in 10.4:
#define kICDownloadFolder
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Chuckit
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Oct 29, 2007, 06:02 PM
 
That's not new. It didn't work for iChat before either. Applications that have their own preference for where to download things are obviously not going to use the location set in Safari — anybody who thought so must be smoking something. But barring that, it seems reasonable that an app would use the system-specified download folder, which is not necessarily Downloads.
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Oct 29, 2007, 06:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
That's not new. It didn't work for iChat before either. Applications that have their own preference for where to download things are obviously not going to use the location set in Safari — anybody who thought so must be smoking something. But barring that, it seems reasonable that an app would use the system-specified download folder, which is not necessarily Downloads.
Yeah, Apple could still send back a "works as intended" if this was filed as a bug report. But, as you've pointed out, this was exactly the same on 10.4 when there was no downloads folder.
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Oct 29, 2007, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Nothing has changed in Leopard. Internet config is supposed to still control where downloads go. Nothing has changed in this respect at all. If iChat is not respecting that setting, you should file a bug report.

See look, internet config's download setting is still in 10.5, just like it was in 10.4:
#define kICDownloadFolder
See look,

~/Downloads

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Oct 29, 2007, 06:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
See look,

~/Downloads
Um. I changed my downloads folder to my desktop in Safari. Then I read out my internet config setting for my downloads folder in internet config, and it came out as:

2007-10-29 15:22:51.483 DownloadsFolder[1303:10b] /Users/colincornaby/Desktop

Magic!
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Oct 29, 2007, 07:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
*sigh*

That doesn't solve the problem if other apps (Firefox, etc.) start adopting the Downloads folder.
There is no unified way to tell every app where to download stuff-at least that I'm aware of. But it is possible to set apps to download where you want them to. For example, in Firefox's preferences, under Main, there's a very obvious "where to download to" option.

What part of your problem am I not understanding?

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Oct 29, 2007, 07:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
There is no unified way to tell every app where to download stuff-at least that I'm aware of.
There is actually, I've mentioned it along with other people. An API called Internet Config in Mac OS X holds the location of the user specified downloads folder. All apps are supposed to obey where Internet Config tells them to download. Both Safari and Firefox do. If you change the download location in Safari, Firefox will use the same download location. This is because they both check the download folder setting in Internet Config.

Starman is throwing a fit because, god forbid, iChat does not obey the internet config setting. My advice is to file a bug report to Apple asking that they make iChat obey the internet config setting. I also suggested he just change iChat's download folder setting in the meantime.
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ghporter
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Oct 29, 2007, 08:16 PM
 
That would fit-and I'm not completely wrong, either. Since even an Apple app like iChat doesn't follow the API completely, there's no way of "telling" every app where to download stuff, though there is a way for them to ask.

I agree that this is bug report stuff.

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starman  (op)
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Oct 29, 2007, 08:54 PM
 
The Internet Config API outdated, that's why Apple created the Downloads folder in the first place. It's not unified as goMac will have you believe because Apple doesn't require anyone to actually USE it.

ghporter - the point you're missing is that when you change the download destination in one app, it doesn't set it for ALL apps. Since Apple now points Safari and the other apps at Downloads, I don't see any point in changing it.

Now, if you want Downloads ITSELF to point somewhere else (which is what I asked in the first place), you can't without doing some Terminal work.

See, people in this thread are all caught up on the Pre-Leopard way of doing things.

And if this is bug-report material, I ask for the THIRD time, why does Apple list the Downloads folder on its list of 300 new features? Are you saying they made a mistake?

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ginoledesma
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Oct 29, 2007, 09:22 PM
 
The answer to your question (the very first one, thread title) is no. Just as you can't change Movies, Documents, Pictures, etc without resorting to the Terminal and using symlinks and/or aliases..
     
Hal Itosis
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Oct 29, 2007, 09:40 PM
 
Believe it or not, I haven't read the last 20-odd posts yet.
I just searched for 'update' and found nothing. So my 2¢:

The only program that uses ~/Downloads (that I know of) is Software Update.
If it's gone, S.U. will either create a new one... or perhaps become problematic.

--

EDIT: I know other apps may use that folder, but S.U. is the only one that really "cares".
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Oct 29, 2007, 09:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
The Internet Config API outdated, that's why Apple created the Downloads folder in the first place. It's not unified as goMac will have you believe because Apple doesn't require anyone to actually USE it.

ghporter - the point you're missing is that when you change the download destination in one app, it doesn't set it for ALL apps. Since Apple now points Safari and the other apps at Downloads, I don't see any point in changing it.

Now, if you want Downloads ITSELF to point somewhere else (which is what I asked in the first place), you can't without doing some Terminal work.

See, people in this thread are all caught up on the Pre-Leopard way of doing things.

And if this is bug-report material, I ask for the THIRD time, why does Apple list the Downloads folder on its list of 300 new features? Are you saying they made a mistake?
I think that Apple itself should hold all of its software to strict compliance with the API unless there's a darn good reason not to, so this is a bug in iChat (or whatever other app is being a problem). And the addition of an inbuilt Downloads folder is new for Leopard. Not that there's an API that lets apps ask where to download to, but that there is this specific folder. That's not a mistake, but it sure isn't "innovative." And why shouldn't we be "caught up on the Pre-Leopard way of doing things"? That's where all of our experience is. It is often very difficult to shift paradigms, and Leopard asks for a number of them.

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starman  (op)
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Oct 29, 2007, 10:18 PM
 
Apple has always shifted paradigms. That doesn't mean we can't adapt. Remember when Documents was added into Mac OS 8? Even Internet Config was a third party config package at one point. Things change.

As for the API, I don't see why it would be considered a bug in iChat if Apple listed iChat as one of the apps that uses this feature.

--

Downloads Stack

Find your downloads quickly in one dedicated stack. Downloads from Safari, iChat, and Mail are automatically saved to the Downloads stack. Say goodbye to desktop clutter.

--

This is the whole point I've been trying to make. People can quote Internet Config until they're blue in the face, but the fact remains that there's an undeletable, required (as stated above by Hal) folder.

Now, what people CAN question is what the standing rule is how to set where the downloads should go. It's apparent that if Safari changes its location and other Apple apps don't (see quote above) then it's not a bug. Especially since it's listed as a feature!

It was easy to piggy back off Safari since it's probably the most commonly used app to download files off the net, but it's not the only one.

To me, the bottom line is this: if you want something to be system wide, don't depend on an app to change it. That's a System Preference and THAT is a bug.

So this goes back to my original point - should users be able to set Downloads to point where they want in a location APART from Safari or any app? This should be a System Preference IMO.

And you're right, the paradigm has to shift from "You must use Safari to change where you want files to go" to "You must use the downloads folder".

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Oct 29, 2007, 10:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
So this goes back to my original point - should users be able to set Downloads to point where they want in a location APART from Safari or any app? This should be a System Preference IMO.
It would change the exact same system preference no matter where the UI to set it is.

Originally Posted by starman View Post
And you're right, the paradigm has to shift from "You must use Safari to change where you want files to go" to "You must use the downloads folder".
You really seem to want this to be true, but you don't seem to have any good reason to believe it is or should be true. Seriously: Is there any Apple source on this, or are you just jumping to conclusions?
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Oct 29, 2007, 11:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
You really seem to want this to be true, but you don't seem to have any good reason to believe it is or should be true. Seriously: Is there any Apple source on this, or are you just jumping to conclusions?
Seriously. Are you intentionally trying to piss me off? There's an undeletable folder. Do you deny its existence? WTF do you think Apple put it there for? To amuse you? They posted the Downloads folder as a F-E-A-T-U-R-E. What other f'n proof do you want?

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Oct 29, 2007, 11:14 PM
 
They also posted the glassy Dock as a feature, but that doesn't mean you can't move it to the sides and get a different look. I'm not convinced that if the user chooses a different downloads folder, we should just ignore the user's wishes and that's that. Certainly the Downloads folder is a good default location, and in fact is is the default location for the preference.
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
The Internet Config API outdated, that's why Apple created the Downloads folder in the first place. It's not unified as goMac will have you believe because Apple doesn't require anyone to actually USE it.
Are you seriously this daft? Apple can't require anybody to use an API. Regardless, you would have the exact same problem on Tiger if you wanted to change your downloads folder from your desktop. Actually, it would be even worse because using your method you'd have to symlink your entire desktop to another drive, where as symlinking the downloads folder just syncs your downloads.
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
So this goes back to my original point - should users be able to set Downloads to point where they want in a location APART from Safari or any app? This should be a System Preference IMO.
It used to be in the Internet preference pane.

Originally Posted by starman View Post
And you're right, the paradigm has to shift from "You must use Safari to change where you want files to go" to "You must use the downloads folder".
No, the paradigm is and always has been "You must use the folder internet config has set." Safari follows this paradigm. So does Firefox. Internet Explorer did too. This is not just a leftover OS 9 thing. Modern full Mac OS X applications use internet config. Yes, you can't account for stupid programmers. But again, if a programmer was stupid and hardcoded the Desktop as the download location in Tiger, you'd have the same issue. This is not a Leopard issue at all, and you're flying off the handle about it, blaming it specifically on Leopard.

And seriously. Whining about deleting the Downloads folder? Given how technically capable you've described yourself as, it should be a non issue for you.
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starman  (op)
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:47 AM
 
Where was I whining about it? I already did the symlink.

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wr11
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Oct 30, 2007, 01:51 AM
 
I hate to think of the energy we've all put into this thread.
     
Simon
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Oct 30, 2007, 04:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by wr11 View Post
I hate to think of the energy we've all put into this thread.
I'm actually surprised it's not been locked yet. So much anger, geez.
     
 
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