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mrmister · Mar 12, 2003, 06:28 PM

How can Apple compete and respond to this new chipset? The battery improvements are very impressive--the majority of the ones tested by CNET are getting 4+ hours of battery life, and one of them got to SEVEN HOURS.

Are we in trouble here? Does Apple's tech on the horizon (PPC970?) have anything that matches the power-conserving properties of these chips?

SwarmyCurve · Mar 12, 2003, 06:38 PM

I have no idea. Just today I read about the laptop model my college is making me buy for entering freshmen this fall - the Dell Latitude D600. I then read about this new Centrino/Pentium M technology at Cnet.com and Pcmag.com and the reviews are impressive. They are fast, support 2 gigs of ram, and consume very little power. The D600 also utilizes a 14" lcd at a large 1400x1050 resolution.

Then again, this model I will have to buy also mirrored existing Apple innovations. The metal case, integrated wifi, gigabit ethernet, radeon graphics, etc are all "old hat" to Apple.

sleepyrenderer · Mar 12, 2003, 06:38 PM

You left out the linkage:

http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.html?i=1800
http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.html?i=1801&p=1

http://computers.cnet.com/hardware/0...0926222-1.html

Just to add some content, the new Pentium M's are very fast, use very little power, have integrated low-power wireless and most have newer, brighter TFT-tech. Reviews so far have been very positive.

biosphere · Mar 12, 2003, 06:45 PM

Well, I'm afraid I can't answer that one. But I've been waiting for my 12" PB (they take a zillion years to ship in my country), and now I'm seriously thinking about cancelling it... This would have been my first mac, and I really wanted to give it a chance, basically for it's portability, design and battery lifetime.

But here come the Centrinos... They're light, faaaaast and portable. And some of them don't look half-bad either.

Now I really have to consider if $1800 for the 12" PB is worth it.

SwarmyCurve · Mar 12, 2003, 06:52 PM

I would still get an Apple there is no question there...

The point of this thread (I thought so at least) was to point out that this new PC technology is great and all, but the question is how will Apple respond.

gator · Mar 12, 2003, 06:58 PM

Does Apple have to respond? I don't have a Powerbook so I don't know the battery life, but C|Net's battery drain test on the 15" 1 GHz Powerbook was just over 3 hours playing a DVD... I figure the PB should easily get 4 hours on office tasks, which is what C|Net tests when they use the Bapco battery benchmark. So, excluding the T40 with the hi-capacity battery, the PB theoretically should be hanging right with those Pentium-M notebooks (all of which have 4-5 hours life), unless my assumption on PB battery life is incorrect. The only thing is that the Pentium-M at the higher clockspeeds is most likely a bit faster than the G4.

lawgeek · Mar 12, 2003, 07:00 PM

I get well over 4 hours already on my 12" PB (more like 4.5 hours with the screen on full brightness) so I'm only slightly impressed by the Centrino. Until PC laptop makers get a decent industrial designer they're still going to be ugly bricks, only now they're lighter ugly bricks with good battery life.

biosphere · Mar 12, 2003, 07:03 PM

Apple's response? Well, do they have anything to offer? I don't mean to offend anyone, but they can't even get the 17" PB out to the customers two months after they announced it.

A lot of you guys have been using mac for a long time. So I guess Centrino will not be an alternative for you. But you've also noticed a lot of "PC people" (like me) hanging around here talking about making the switch. My guess is that quite a few of these will go for a Centrino based notebook instead.

But hey, apple have survived a long time without us "Microserfs", and they will continue to do so.

But I really don't think apple's got a response.

sleepyrenderer · Mar 12, 2003, 07:14 PM

I think what people are talking about is that Apple has been luring a lot of switchers with the combination of excellent battery life, relatively lightweight designs, full featured internals and decent prices (mainly the first two). There's been a dearth laptops that compete well in all those categories at once on the x86 side so Apple laptops have been tastey alternatives.

Even if the Centrino just means that x86 laptops become more than competitive to Apple's offerings in the above categories it isn't that good a thing for Apple as a long time Windows user's tendencies (just like long-time users of any platform) will still be towards what they're most comfortable with.

cambro · Mar 12, 2003, 07:45 PM

Hmm, these specs do look pretty good.

What a shame that Apple fell into a death-trap relationship with Motorolla. I would argue that processor performance, REAL OR PERCEIVED, doesn't matter which, is the only real anchor that has held Apple and OS X back.

Just imagine what could be if the best OS and hardware design was coupled with the best processor!

Let's hope that something, anything, comes along real soon.

icruise · Mar 12, 2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by lawgeek:
I get well over 4 hours already on my 12" PB (more like 4.5 hours with the screen on full brightness) so I'm only slightly impressed by the Centrino.

Surely you don't get 4.5 hours with full brightness. I've gotten that with all power saving measures on and with the brightness down all the way, but full brightness really kills the battery.

coolmac · Mar 12, 2003, 08:49 PM

It's not only the better battery life.
They just did a review of the Centrino chip on The Screensavers, there was an average of about 20% faster performane with 20% slower chips that the P4 M chips.

Perhaps another reason why Apple & Intel wouldn't be a bad combination, style of the Powerbook, OS X and a great chipset.

sworthy · Mar 12, 2003, 09:03 PM

I think we're missing the point here. What intel is offering is a good thing, but I don't think it pushes the scale towards purchasing a pc over a mac.

It now has built in wi-fi... welcome to the party

It now has longer battery life... again, an apple mainstay

What exactly pushes the pc's past the mac

Seems to me that they are now are more on par with each other (except for the design, and os of course). However, these "innovations" have been around for a while and I'm sure apple has something in the works. Complain about apple's desktops all you want, but their laptops cannot be topped (even now).

ae86_16v · Mar 12, 2003, 09:10 PM

man that T40 is nice...I wonder how much would it cost?

Patcarla · Mar 12, 2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by sworthy:
I think we're missing the point here. What intel is offering is a good thing, but I don't think it pushes the scale towards purchasing a pc over a mac.

It now has built in wi-fi... welcome to the party

It now has longer battery life... again, an apple mainstay

What exactly pushes the pc's past the mac
Seems to me that they are now are more on par with each other (except for the design, and os of course). However, these "innovations" have been around for a while and I'm sure apple has something in the works. Complain about apple's desktops all you want, but their laptops cannot be topped (even now).

Yep!! I tend to agree.Apple is still ahead in the laptop market..

StiZeven · Mar 12, 2003, 10:27 PM

The Centrino is very impressive. Being a user of both platforms I am very excited about it. Not only are these chips MUCH faster than the latest Mobile Pentium 4 chips (which were already very fast), but they now have a 1MB Level 2 Cache while maintaining the Mobile Pentium 4-M 400MHz bus speed. This new design/speed coupled with MUCH better battery life deserves much more credit that what I've seen given (regardless whether you are a Windows user or not).

Also, the built in WiFi *is* a good feature as it leaves room in a thin and light notebook for other components, or just makes notebooks even smaller without having a MiniPCI card (or AirPort card if you will). Built in WiFi has been an integral part of PC notebooks for ages as well.

Sure, PowerBooks get good battery life (not the life Apple claims, however), but how fast are the G4 chips? Shouldn't they last long unplugged without only 1GHz of power compared to the competition? I don't know about you, but I am impressed by a chip that is almost twice as fast as Apple's latest offerings and more efficient - even if it has the Intel logo on it.

If nothing else, this will get Apple to make even better notebooks.

PoisonTooth · Mar 12, 2003, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by gator:
The only thing is that the Pentium-M at the higher clockspeeds is most likely a bit faster than the G4.

Um, the Centrino blows the G4 clear out of the water. During the General Usage Test in Anandtech's Centrino showdown, the 1.6 GHz Centrino outperformed a 2.4GHz desktop P4. In Tom's Hardware Guide's Centrino test, the beta-silicon 1.6GHz Centrino kept pace with or beat a 2.2GHz P4M in nearly all tests (even FPU performance).

A 1 GHz G4 would be beaten and raped by a 1.6 GHz Centrino, and that's not all clock speed. The Centrino takes the same approach the G4 does: more work per clock cycle.

Bottom line: Centrino is a hell of a chip. I'm impressed, and I think it could mean some degree of trouble for Apple.

PoisonTooth · Mar 12, 2003, 11:32 PM

Edit: Bah. MacNN's forums barfed for a second. Duplicate post.

PoisonTooth · Mar 12, 2003, 11:34 PM

Edit: duplicate post.

seanyepez · Mar 12, 2003, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by PoisonTooth:
Um, the Centrino blows the G4 clear out of the water. During the General Usage Test in Anandtech's Centrino showdown, the 1.6 GHz Centrino outperformed a 2.4GHz desktop P4. In Tom's Hardware Guide's Centrino test, the beta-silicon 1.6GHz Centrino kept pace with or beat a 2.2GHz P4M in nearly all tests (even FPU performance).

A 1 GHz G4 would be beaten and raped by a 1.6 GHz Centrino, and that's not all clock speed. The Centrino takes the same approach the G4 does: more work per clock cycle.

Bottom line: Centrino is a hell of a chip. I'm impressed, and I think it could mean some degree of trouble for Apple.

Agreed. I think the Centrino is an awesome chip.

mrmister · Mar 13, 2003, 01:13 AM

Agreed as well--it's something they *have* to address, and I wonder how they'll proceed.

SplijinX · Mar 13, 2003, 02:11 AM

Very impressive chip indeed. The IBM T40 lasted nearly SEVEN hours, wow. And this was from a CNet benchmark, not just manufacturer's claims. Intel has definitely upped the ante.

I wonder if it would be possible to integrate this processor into Apple's laptops?

biosphere · Mar 13, 2003, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by sworthy:
I think we're missing the point here. What intel is offering is a good thing, but I don't think it pushes the scale towards purchasing a pc over a mac.

It now has built in wi-fi... welcome to the party

It now has longer battery life... again, an apple mainstay

What exactly pushes the pc's past the mac
Seems to me that they are now are more on par with each other (except for the design, and os of course). However, these "innovations" have been around for a while and I'm sure apple has something in the works. Complain about apple's desktops all you want, but their laptops cannot be topped (even now).

Well, what about the iBook? What happens when you start to get small notebooks with good battery life AND performance that wallops the G3 iBooks? Right now, the iBooks are just about the only cheap notebook with a weight of around 2kgs.

We must remember that the the biggest problem for the "PC-PC" has been the powerhungry cpu's. This has brought on the need for *huge* batteries, which in turn dictated the size, weight - and to some extent - the design of the laptops.

But it doesn't run OS X... And think what apple could have done with the Centrino...

RMXO · Mar 13, 2003, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by SplijinX:
Very impressive chip indeed. The IBM T40 lasted nearly SEVEN hours, wow. And this was from a CNet benchmark, not just manufacturer's claims. Intel has definitely upped the ante.

I wonder if it would be possible to integrate this processor into Apple's laptops?

lasted 7 hrs cus they had a secondary battery in the drive bay. neverless, its still an awesome chip.

ASIMO · Mar 13, 2003, 03:05 AM

Anybody wanna buy an 8 month-old Toshiba Satellite?? Heh.

I'd also sell my Powerbook in a heartbeat if it weren't for two things: OS X and undeniable randiness.

badnewsblair · Mar 13, 2003, 03:11 AM

First off guys, the Centrino isn't a new chip, its just a "mobile technology"! Let's give Intel some credit for all of the wonderful features... I mean integrated WiFi! What a fabulous idea (note the sarcasm).

I'm a switcher (not even really yet since I'm still working on my PEECEE and waiting on my 17-inch), and I'm still not impressed. After researching Apples for a while and being around the Mac community, seeing the machines that this Centrino is going into is more like "been there done that" for me. I dunno...

Kudos for the performance increase with less MHz, though! It's about time we start realizing that MHz doesn't make the machine. Lower MHz, lower power consumption, less heat... let's work for more efficient computers for once.

John123 · Mar 13, 2003, 03:14 AM

As a longtime Mac user, I'm impressed.

I'm one of those folks who increasingly would advocate migrating the Mac platform to Intel processors. It seems like the only viable alternative. The only beacon of hope on the horizon for Apple lays in the hands of IBM...but all our rosy predictions based on the POWER4 --> PPC970 and the subsequent generation may end up being as far-fetched as our predictions of Motorola's capabilities nearly a decade ago when the PowerPC roadmap began to firmly take form.

People who buy Apples don't buy them for their CPUs. They buy them for design, the OS, and a host of other (arguably less important) reasons.

By the same token, poeple who DON'T buy Apples often don't buy them for their CPUs. I say we take this argument out of the PC user's lexicon.

If I were Steve Jobs, I'd turn Marklar into a full-fledged chip conversion strategy...think about the possibilities -- you keep the Apple ROMs proprietary, so that OS X runs only on Apple machines (or clones, should Apple decide to do that miserable experiment again)...and with proper development, folks could run Windows natively on the same machines.

Apple wins and Microsoft wins. Many semiconductor firms win. The only losers are PC manufacturers themselves -- Dell, Gateway, Acer, etc. And of course IBM.

Who's with me?

biosphere · Mar 13, 2003, 04:26 AM

Originally posted by John123:

If I were Steve Jobs, I'd turn Marklar into a full-fledged chip conversion strategy...think about the possibilities -- you keep the Apple ROMs proprietary, so that OS X runs only on Apple machines (or clones, should Apple decide to do that miserable experiment again)...and with proper development, folks could run Windows natively on the same machines.

Apple wins and Microsoft wins. Many semiconductor firms win. The only losers are PC manufacturers themselves -- Dell, Gateway, Acer, etc. And of course IBM.

Who's with me?

Not me, for one. I don't want to run Windows on a mac, I want to run OS X on a PC.

John123 · Mar 13, 2003, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by biosphere:
Not me, for one. I don't want to run Windows on a mac, I want to run OS X on a PC.

So what you are really saying is you want cheaper hardware and will accept that it's less aesthetically appealing?

ghost_flash · Mar 13, 2003, 12:42 PM

The centrino was reviewed on TECHTV and I was not impressed in the least.

First of all they tried to sell the less is more aproach...

It's a SLOWER processor yet it is faster than the Higher MHZ processors... hmmm.

Centrino = chipset with an integrated wifi CARD = BFD!

It's repackaging and redefining performance based upon chipset and not mhz... and is what APPLE has been about since the BEGINNING.

Centrino = LOC = Load of Crap

nsxpower · Mar 13, 2003, 01:07 PM

I am not entirely sure that Centrino is even an entirely new chipset. Judging from the performance specs ... it could be just a reworked Pentium III-M w/o the SSE instruction set and perhaps something else (cache anyone

). Its not like anyone is going to look at the processor out there

Centrinoes are ****, there are better processors out there! Such as, VIA and IBM. C3 is 75% processing power of an equivalent pentium and power consumption and heat of a 486

AMD has introduced new chips too ... I'd like to call them (or the laptops that may use these chips) the portable Ball Frier 2000! They can make a new commercial: "Vesectomy on the go, just use one of these babies for an hour!"

All this is nothing ... we need a really NEW! chip design that would offer processing power while operating at low temp and using nearly no power. Combine that with advances in battery design => Perhpaps, you may not need to plugin your laptop for a day or two. Ahh, wishfull thinking.

John123 · Mar 13, 2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
The centrino was reviewed on TECHTV and I was not impressed in the least.

First of all they tried to sell the less is more aproach...

It's a SLOWER processor yet it is faster than the Higher MHZ processors... hmmm.

Centrino = chipset with an integrated wifi CARD = BFD!

It's repackaging and redefining performance based upon chipset and not mhz... and is what APPLE has been about since the BEGINNING.

Centrino = LOC = Load of Crap

Uhhh, dude, if you don't think that slower processor frequencies (speeds) can't be compensated for with architecture, then you are in the WRONG forum. That's the same argument Apple has (partially correctly) been selling for years.

Where the Centrino advances -- in contrast to the PowerPC/G4 which makes changes in the pipeline -- is in pre-empting common tasks. Think of it like having a cache of commonly used instructions right next to the die.

biosphere · Mar 13, 2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by John123:
So what you are really saying is you want cheaper hardware and will accept that it's less aesthetically appealing?

No, I want to be able to run OS X on the faster platform: Centrino vs. G4. If that is the G4, well then I will pick up a powerbook. But right now I'm starting to believe that Centrino might be a good option.

John123 · Mar 13, 2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by biosphere:
No, I want to be able to run OS X on the faster platform: Centrino vs. G4. If that is the G4, well then I will pick up a powerbook. But right now I'm starting to believe that Centrino might be a good option.

Then you don't disagree with what I said! If you put Intel chips into Apple computers, you would get that "faster platform"!

ghost_flash · Mar 13, 2003, 03:06 PM

This is a rediculous discussion but:

How about this point that was covered on the Screensavers?

In order for it to have the "Centrino Tech. Sticker" it has to be entirely 100% INTEL Chips inside.

Sorry, but nothing special their, it's only a Marketing PLOY.

It isn't better than what Apple has already been doing.

Oh and 20% faster? NOPE.. try maximum 15% faster.

-M

biosphere · Mar 13, 2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by John123:
Then you don't disagree with what I said! If you put Intel chips into Apple computers, you would get that "faster platform"!

Sorry - I misunderstood! You are right - I totally agree with you on that point!

biosphere · Mar 13, 2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by nsxpower:

Centrinoes are ****, there are better processors out there! Such as, VIA and IBM. C3 is 75% processing power of an equivalent pentium and power consumption and heat of a 486

What are you talking about?!?!?

The Via C3 suc*s! The ONLY good thing about it is the power consumption, but for most of the time a 1GHz C3 can't rival a 667 MHz Celeron: check out the benchmarks at Tom's Hardware

It's not in the same ballpark, league or game as a Pentium!

msykes · Mar 13, 2003, 03:59 PM

I have to say, the new Centrino's do look nice. I'm in the middle of trying to decide if I should get my girlfriend to switch and get an Apple, or let her stick with the PC crowd. Its' going to make the switch argument more difficult.

I'm also concerned about the effect this will have on the linux crowd. x86 laptops with good battery life will be appealing to that crowd, who won't run Windows on it anyways.

mrmister · Mar 13, 2003, 04:06 PM

"First off guys, the Centrino isn't a new chip, its just a "mobile technology"! Let's give Intel some credit for all of the wonderful features... I mean integrated WiFi! What a fabulous idea (note the sarcasm)."

It is actually a new chip--and the integrated WiFi means that they can control the power use very closely on both the chip AND the WiFi, making it very battery efficient.

This is not a marketing ploy--it is good tech. That doesn't mean it is the end of the world by any means, but Apple will have to address it. Sticking our heads in the sand isn't going to help.

It is also too early to see just how good the Centrino is--the tests so far prove to me that there's about a 15% improvement in battery life and CPU power, and that's impressive.

And we are not migrating to Intel--marklar or no marklar, so long as we keep hearing about the PPC970 chips from IBM you'll have to accept that Apple is trying that first.

PoisonTooth · Mar 13, 2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
The centrino was reviewed on TECHTV and I was not impressed in the least.

First of all they tried to sell the less is more aproach...

It's a SLOWER processor yet it is faster than the Higher MHZ processors... hmmm.

Centrino = chipset with an integrated wifi CARD = BFD!

It's repackaging and redefining performance based upon chipset and not mhz... and is what APPLE has been about since the BEGINNING.

Centrino = LOC = Load of Crap

No offense, but you're completely, unqualifiedly clueless. Centrino is the best mobile CPU technology on the planet. It's an excellent piece of technology.

ghost_flash · Mar 13, 2003, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by PoisonTooth:
No offense, but you're completely, unqualifiedly clueless. Centrino is the best mobile CPU technology on the planet. It's an excellent piece of technology.

Ok there no offense taken. Oh wait, I just read past the comma.

Un...qua---qua---quali---Unquali--fi-duh.....clueless.

Offended.

"The best mobile CPU technology on the planet".

"It's an excellent piece of technology".

Yeah, you don't sound too much like a robot...

Me.. I've been there and done that, then I woke up.

-Mark

Enjoy your dreams.

PoisonTooth · Mar 14, 2003, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by nsxpower:
[B]I am not entirely sure that Centrino is even an entirely new chipset.

It is an entirely new chipset, but it retains the very fast 400 MHz PSB (processor support bus) from the P4M.

Judging from the performance specs ... it could be just a reworked Pentium III-M w/o the SSE instruction set and perhaps something else (cache anyone

).

It's a mix of P3 and P4 architectures coupled with a large and fast L2 (not L3) cache. It does more work per clock cycle than either of its hereditary predecessors. SIMD extensions are retained.

Centrinoes are ****, there are better processors out there! Such as, VIA and IBM. C3 is 75% processing power of an equivalent pentium and power consumption and heat of a 486

Either you're kidding or you're massively uninformed. You make the call.

All this is nothing ... we need a really NEW! chip design that would offer processing power while operating at low temp and using nearly no power.

They have that today. It's called Centrino. Wake up.

PoisonTooth · Mar 14, 2003, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Ok there no offense taken. Oh wait, I just read past the comma.

Un...qua---qua---quali---Unquali--fi-duh.....clueless.

Offended.

"The best mobile CPU technology on the planet".

"It's an excellent piece of technology".

Yeah, you don't sound too much like a robot...

Me.. I've been there and done that, then I woke up.

-Mark

Enjoy your dreams.

I have a TiBook SD, buddy. I just know a good piece of technology when I see one, and I'm not so platform-blind to pretend Centrino isn't a hell of a mobile chip.

ghost_flash · Mar 14, 2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by PoisonTooth:
I have a TiBook SD, buddy. I just know a good piece of technology when I see one, and I'm not so platform-blind to pretend Centrino isn't a hell of a mobile chip.

That's just wonderful.

Thanks for explaining that for me.

badnewsblair · Mar 14, 2003, 01:27 AM

Woah now buddies. Stop the burning of each other and show some love!

Give Kudos to the Centrino. It's a good piece of tech, but it isn't the end all, be all of chips. It's just a step in the right direction.

biosphere · Mar 14, 2003, 02:41 AM

Perhaps it will be people like me, about to switch, that will go for a Centrino based notebook. And that really is a shame. Like I said earlier in the post; I'm still waiting for my 12", but the thought of getting the equivalent of a 2.2GHz Pentium in a laptop while at the same time enjoy good battery lifetime, well - that's awfully tempting.

As it seems now, I'm going ahead with the Powerbook. The reasons for me ordering a Powerbook hasn't changed:

- small, light weight notebook
- it would be my contribution in the struggle against Palladium
- it runs OS X
- it's Unix based
- it's not made by Dell

Karim · Mar 15, 2003, 02:12 AM

Don't forget the joy of:

There has been a registry error.
press any key to reboot.

30 second delay

There has been a registry error.
press any key to reboot.

30 second delay

There has been a registry error.
press any key to reboot.

Expletives being shouted!!!!!

4 hour delay while Windoze XP or whatever is being reinstalled

Welcome to Windows
Would you like to take a tour

No, you motherfuc*er I want to get my work done, but since I had to delete my windoze install now all my prefs are reset and I have to reinstall my apps and....

2 hour delay while reinstalling apps.

There has been a registry error.
press any key to reboot.

Haha. This might be what happens before lone gunmen go on the prowl.

AxelFonze · Mar 15, 2003, 02:34 AM

Mac afficiandos are always talking about how PC users bash macs without knowing what the hell they are talking about. I see more ridiculous ranting and raving about how shitty PC's are, and how Macs are the end all be all of technology here than I can even comprehend. The centrino is an amazing piece of technology, and a notebook equipped with one could kick the ever-living crap out of any current powerbook. Don't get me wrong, Macs are great machines, I own a Tibook, but some fanboys here really need to pull their heads out of their asses and stop living in denial. Mac hardware is elegant, well designed and engineered, and yes, even powerful. But PC's are more powerful, cheaper, and much more flexible. BOTH ARE EXCELLENT PLATFORMS. So what if powerbooks had built in wireless connectivity first. So what if Apple came out with portable DVD burning first. I don'

Karim · Mar 15, 2003, 02:37 AM

Did you just get a registry error? I noticed you stopped mid sentence...

But your right, we do tend to bash peecees alot. But hey, itz good to be da KING.

AxelFonze · Mar 15, 2003, 02:42 AM

t care if Apple was the first to do anything, if there is a computer that is faster, lighter, more power effecient and cheaper, with more available software and periphials that a powerbook, why the hell would anybody run around calling it a load of crap? Do some people just have massive inferiority complexes? Are some just jealous that something new has come out that basically takes away most of their "Powerbooks are better" arguments? Grow up and stop trying to show PC users how much bigger your dick is. Your point is moot. If you are happy using Macs, use them. If not, don't. But quit trying to make everybody feel the same way. This isn't a revolution, it's a computer. Yes, be passionate, care about it, share your love of Apple with the rest of us that love them too, but don't be an *******.

By the way, EVERYONE hates Microsoft, not just Apple users. Everyone I know who uses a PC hates Bill and the gang too.