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Just got a new Galaxy S4! (Page 2)
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theothersteve
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Sep 3, 2013, 11:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
From that perspective, you're right. But then again, to me, that's akin to saying that the tradition mouse-based GUI has been the same since the original Macintosh -- on the one hand, it's true, but on the other, so much has changed in the meantime.
The point is to show what's possible. You put iOS 1 beside iOS 7, and the way they work is essentially identical. The settings. The home button. The grid of icons. Sure gestures have come along but...

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The only other alternative to the icon on a grid idea is Windows Phone, and honestly, I don't think it's particularly better. I don't think it's a good idea to clamor for something new just for the sake of having something new.
Well, it's not the only possible alternative. There's lots that can be done...

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
You're comparing an OS optimized for smartphones to a tablet OS (it's clear that iOS 7 is focussed on getting the smartphone UI right, the iPad has secondary priority).
I'm pointing out innovation... the purpose of which is to illustrate how much is possible on these devices. That iOS is stagnant on both devices.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
To me, that's the best thing about iOS and Apple would be stupid to change that. Especially to less experienced users, it allows them to consistently go back to the home screen.
It's inefficient. Notice how I never said to get rid of a home button though? My idea is that it would be touch based but abstracted more out of the experience. But there when you need it. They should also get rid of the physical power button at the top...

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The more I use Windows Phone, the more I see how different they are. Apple did not copy one iota of the Windows Phone UI, because that is scroll based (at least in most apps). Microsoft was the first to focus on typography as a major design element and Apple followed Microsoft's lead. Put succinctly, Apple followed a design trend made popular by Microsoft, but they did not copy the UI. (This may sound like I'm diminishing Microsoft's achievements here, but in my mind, it's the exact opposite: they have set a trend that is »independent of implementation«. That deserves far more credit than copying a certain UI element.)
Apple copied their entire design language.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
It has mostly to do with how the system treats touch input. Before iOS 7, UI elements behaved less like physical objects. If you want to access the camera from the lock screen and slide up, all that matters is that you've slid up beyond a threshold and the camera UI is unveiled. The velocity of the slide is independent of the velocity with which you move your finger (you can see this most easily when you slide very slowly). In other words, a fixed animation is triggered at a certain point.

In iOS 7, this slider has a mass and there is a gravitational force. So if you don't unlock quickly enough and you impart too little momentum on the slide, it comes crashing down again. In fact, you slam the slider down to the »ground« and it will bounce. This is UI is not an animation, but a mini physics simulation which takes the user's input into account.

The big advantage is that developers, some of which have used these ideas already, have access to this free of charge, i. e. they no longer have to write this code (and I reckon, most of them can't anyway). Also the redesign is going in the same direction: it makes it easier for app designers to use stock UI elements, because many apps have been designed using the design principles which iOS 7 is based on anyway.

If we view this from a higher level, what Apple is doing with iOS 7 is focus and build on the strength of their platform -- which is the app ecosystem. They're making it easier for developers to create apps which are second to none and cannot be built easily on other platforms. IMO they're doing the right thing.

There are certainly feature gaps (e. g. something akin to contracts and collaborative document handling), but I think this is more likely to appear with iOS 8 which IMO will be focussed on getting the iPad's UI right.
Don't get me started on iOS 7's bloated piece of crap lock screen. And that sliding mechanism is annoying as hell. Takes too much work, especially when you don't hit just right and slide it up just right. Try. Again. And again...

Just like having to slide those stupid little face circles in Facebook chat in the Facebook App... It's annoying having to drag like this. I think all this gesture sliding crap is a fad and my suggestion to anyone designing mobile software is to avoid it at all costs unless it really makes sense.
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 12:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
Well, it's not the only possible alternative. There's lots that can be done...
Like what? I haven't seen any alternative except for Windows Phone which uses a different paradigm. (Adding widgets doesn't fundamentally change anything, nor are widgets new.) With Windows Phone, if you haven't pinned a particular app to the home screen, you have to scroll down and select it from a list of apps. I call this hardly ideal or innovative in a world where apps make all the difference.
Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
Apple copied their entire design language.
No, definitely not. Windows is flat, you scroll sideways to get to different screens. It's literally a scroll. iOS and many iOS apps (e. g. The Magazine or Vesper) use layers, so views slide on top of one another. That's but one important difference.

And honestly, I don't get your infatuation with Windows 8/Windows Phone 8: Windows Phone seems old to me, precisely because you can't navigate using gestures, you have a confusing back button and other than the mail client (which is a really nice piece of UI engineering), I don't see any wow apps.

I haven't used Windows 8 on a daily basis, so I have much less experience with it. But I don't find it particularly impressive, quite the contrary. For instance, Microsoft hasn't shown what complex Metro apps should look like (think iPhoto). Their interim solution seems to be to ship apps with mouse-based interfaces whenever they did not manage to finish the Metro version.
Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
Don't get me started on iOS 7's bloated piece of crap lock screen. And that sliding mechanism is annoying as hell.
It was but one example to explain what I meant. I think these APIs will be crucial for a new generation of apps, but at this point, this is just speculation on my part and I think we should look at apps in about 6 months when developers have had ample time to tweak their designs.
Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
I think all this gesture sliding crap is a fad and my suggestion to anyone designing mobile software is to avoid it at all costs unless it really makes sense.
I think it's quite the opposite: all players use gestures for essential pieces of their UI (e. g. you access Windows 8's charms via a gesture, and there is no touch control for that). And especially if you make your controls into objects that can be manipulated like physical objects, you don't need to »learn« gestures. But in any case, I don't think »gestures« are a fad, they're here to stay. Some gestures will be universal (such as pinch-to-zoom) while others will be similar to keyboard shortcuts on desktop OSes, something that more advanced users can use.
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theothersteve
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Sep 3, 2013, 01:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Like what? I haven't seen any alternative except for Windows Phone which uses a different paradigm. (Adding widgets doesn't fundamentally change anything, nor are widgets new.) With Windows Phone, if you haven't pinned a particular app to the home screen, you have to scroll down and select it from a list of apps. I call this hardly ideal or innovative in a world where apps make all the difference.

No, definitely not. Windows is flat, you scroll sideways to get to different screens. It's literally a scroll. iOS and many iOS apps (e. g. The Magazine or Vesper) use layers, so views slide on top of one another. That's but one important difference.

And honestly, I don't get your infatuation with Windows 8/Windows Phone 8: Windows Phone seems old to me, precisely because you can't navigate using gestures, you have a confusing back button and other than the mail client (which is a really nice piece of UI engineering), I don't see any wow apps.

I haven't used Windows 8 on a daily basis, so I have much less experience with it. But I don't find it particularly impressive, quite the contrary. For instance, Microsoft hasn't shown what complex Metro apps should look like (think iPhoto). Their interim solution seems to be to ship apps with mouse-based interfaces whenever they did not manage to finish the Metro version.

It was but one example to explain what I meant. I think these APIs will be crucial for a new generation of apps, but at this point, this is just speculation on my part and I think we should look at apps in about 6 months when developers have had ample time to tweak their designs.

I think it's quite the opposite: all players use gestures for essential pieces of their UI (e. g. you access Windows 8's charms via a gesture, and there is no touch control for that). And especially if you make your controls into objects that can be manipulated like physical objects, you don't need to »learn« gestures. But in any case, I don't think »gestures« are a fad, they're here to stay. Some gestures will be universal (such as pinch-to-zoom) while others will be similar to keyboard shortcuts on desktop OSes, something that more advanced users can use.
You're missing my points... But then again, you don't sound like a designer...
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
You're missing my points... But then again, you don't sound like a designer...
Please don't resort to ad hominems just because someone disagrees with you. And don't mistake for »continuing to disagree with your points« with »missing your points«.
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Sep 3, 2013, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Like what? I haven't seen any alternative except for Windows Phone which uses a different paradigm. (Adding widgets doesn't fundamentally change anything, nor are widgets new.)
A) An App Drawer like in Android where all your apps can be accessed and are in a pre, user defined order. It's a good alternative to simply having pages and pages of app icons all over your phone.

Especially when combined with

B) Widgets. Adding widgets DOES fundamentally change things because with widgets I can have access to useful information at a glance by simply swiping to a different screen. Instead of seeing another page full of app icons, I could have, for example, my twitter feed full screen in a scrollable widget. Scroll to the next page and I can have widgets with news feeds. Widgets for quickly playing music. My Calendar at a glance, without having to open an app, by simply scrolling to another page.

It is beyond me why Apple cannot implement something as simple as widgets that Android and other phones have had for YEARS.
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
A) An App Drawer like in Android where all your apps can be accessed and are in a pre, user defined order. It's a good alternative to simply having pages and pages of app icons all over your phone.
How are app drawers different from folders?
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
B) Widgets. Adding widgets DOES fundamentally change things because with widgets I can have access to useful information at a glance by simply swiping to a different screen. Instead of seeing another page full of app icons, I could have, for example, my twitter feed full screen in a scrollable widget.
Alright, I have to say I don't use Widgets (e. g. on OS X), so perhaps that blinds me to them a little. iOS does have widgets in the Notification center, isn't that comparable functionality?
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
It is beyond me why Apple cannot implement something as simple as widgets that Android and other phones have had for YEARS.
My guess it's just a conscious decision on their part. Whether you agree with it or not is another thing, though.
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Sep 3, 2013, 02:19 PM
 
Android widgets are little windows that you can interact with on your main and lock screen. It's actually pretty badass. On iOS all you get on the lock screen is the time and some notifications. Imagine having widgets that show the weather, your mail, and whatever else you can think of without having to unlock the phone and run an app for everything you want.

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Sep 3, 2013, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
B) Widgets. Adding widgets DOES fundamentally change things because with widgets I can have access to useful information at a glance by simply swiping to a different screen. Instead of seeing another page full of app icons, I could have, for example, my twitter feed full screen in a scrollable widget. Scroll to the next page and I can have widgets with news feeds. Widgets for quickly playing music. My Calendar at a glance, without having to open an app, by simply scrolling to another page.
That sounds like an app to me. Have an extra screen for it four screens to the right, or a single tap away from the main screen just seems like different ways to get to the same thing. I fail to see the advantage.

Especially with multitasking working the way it does in iOS 7.
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 02:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Android widgets are little windows that you can interact with on your main and lock screen. It's actually pretty badass. On iOS all you get on the lock screen is the time and some notifications. Imagine having widgets that show the weather, your mail, and whatever else you can think of without having to unlock the phone and run an app for everything you want.
That is not what Mrjinglesusa described.

Lock screen functionality I can understand. I'd love to see upcoming appointments and reminders on the lock screen, though it's already usually completely cluttered with incoming emails and thus pretty useless.
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 02:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
That is not what Mrjinglesusa described.

Lock screen functionality I can understand. I'd love to see upcoming appointments and reminders on the lock screen, though it's already usually completely cluttered with incoming emails and thus pretty useless.
If you saw them, you'd see we described the same thing.

Take a look at this video. It shows how when you swipe from screen to screen, you get widgets, not app icons, although you COULD have app icons.

Top 5 Android Widgets - YouTube

In a sense, app icons become secondary to the Android experience.

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Sep 3, 2013, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Android widgets are little windows that you can interact with on your main and lock screen. It's actually pretty badass. On iOS all you get on the lock screen is the time and some notifications. Imagine having widgets that show the weather, your mail, and whatever else you can think of without having to unlock the phone and run an app for everything you want.
They're particularly useful on a tablet, which has much more screen real estate than a phone.

On my phone, the only widgets I have are clock/weather and a Facebook status thing. On my tablet, however, I have widgets for all kinds of stuff - MLB scores, traffic, weather, Facebook, battery status, calendar, multiple inboxes, etc.

Widgets can also be shortcuts to particularly useful functions within an application. I use a program called aCar to track stuff for my car - fillups, repairs, etc. It has a widget for quickly accessing the screen within the application for adding a fillup, since I use that much more frequently than repairs and things like oil changes and brake work.

The nice thing about the home screen is that you can use it however works best for you. The Google app store has a setting to automatically add a shortcut to your home screen when a new app is installed - so, if you prefer, you can make the Android home screen behave much like iOS. If, however, you want more options, you can really do whatever you want with the home screen. Its endless flexibility and customization options are a refreshing change from the limits of iOS - you can group apps and move icons around, but that's pretty much it.
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Sep 3, 2013, 02:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
How are app drawers different from folders?
The app drawer is analogous to the iOS Springboard. Most launchers let you have app folders inside the app drawer. The home screen is more like the desktop in OS X or Windows - you can put stuff on it in any configuration, instead of being locked into a grid of icons.

Alright, I have to say I don't use Widgets (e. g. on OS X), so perhaps that blinds me to them a little. iOS does have widgets in the Notification center, isn't that comparable functionality?
Not exactly - the notification center is where you should have information and functionality that you access most frequently - like unread text messages, the temperature outside, battery remaining, etc. A widget on the home screen, on the other hand, might contain information that you want accessible without launching an app, but don't need accessible all the time. Good examples of this might be a package tracker or a sports score widget - the MLB app for Android has a widget that automatically shows your favorite teams' scores first, so at a glance I can see how the Red Sox are doing, even in the middle of a game, without having to launch an app and scroll through a list of scores.

That kind of information doesn't need to clutter up the notification bar IMO.

My guess it's just a conscious decision on their part. Whether you agree with it or not is another thing, though.
I think it's most likely in the name of keeping things simple. It took until what, iOS 6 to implement a notification bar pull-down? Android has had that from the start - it's a lot cleaner than notification popups, because it doesn't interrupt what you're doing with a screen overlay. Similarly, the toggles that are coming with iOS 7 to quickly toggle things like GPS, 4G, wifi, and bluetooth are something that's been possible in Android for awhile now (and something I use pretty much every time I use my phone).

Apple has a tendency to keep things as dumbed down as possible until consumers drag their products kicking and screaming into the world of features and options. They didn't come up with the notification bar or the power toggles drawer - they had to implement those things because they knew that the competition was already doing it, and doing it well.

Of course, I had a power toggles drawer on my iPhone 3G running iOS 3.1, thanks to jailbreaking and installing SBSettings, but that's another conversation...
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Sep 3, 2013, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
If you saw them, you'd see we described the same thing.

Take a look at this video. It shows how when you swipe from screen to screen, you get widgets, not app icons, although you COULD have app icons.

Top 5 Android Widgets - YouTube

In a sense, app icons become secondary to the Android experience.
Yes, I understand that. Those are apps that you can swipe to. It seems pretty irrelevant whether you swipe to them, or whether you press an icon on the home screen to show them. That's just a different approach to how you access your "favorites".

(Personally, I think pressing an icon is probably faster than swiping four times, but then, I'm coming from the "grid of icons" paradigm, where those are primary to the interface.)
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 03:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
The nice thing about the home screen is that you can use it however works best for you. The Google app store has a setting to automatically add a shortcut to your home screen when a new app is installed - so, if you prefer, you can make the Android home screen behave much like iOS. If, however, you want more options, you can really do whatever you want with the home screen. Its endless flexibility and customization options are a refreshing change from the limits of iOS - you can group apps and move icons around, but that's pretty much it.
…in the name of simplicity and predictability.

I get what you're saying, and I don't disagree.
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I think it's most likely in the name of keeping things simple. It took until what, iOS 6 to implement a notification bar pull-down? [...] Apple has a tendency to keep things as dumbed down as possible until consumers drag their products kicking and screaming into the world of features and options. They didn't come up with the notification bar or the power toggles drawer - they had to implement those things because they knew that the competition was already doing it, and doing it well.
I agree that this is the likely reason: Apple wants to keep things as clean as possible and add as little as possible. I don't think that this equates to something that is dumbed down, though. In some instances, e. g. webOS-style multitasking, they should have added a feature earlier, but overall I think it prevents feature creep. Ditto for Widgets, I think it'd be technically very easy to create a »Dashboard for iOS« and support for Widgets in the SDK. I'm prejudiced in so far that I don't use Widgets and I have seen very few people using them (beyond the widgets that are installed by default).
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Sep 3, 2013, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Please don't resort to ad hominems just because someone disagrees with you. And don't mistake for »continuing to disagree with your points« with »missing your points«.
Huh?
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I agree that this is the likely reason: Apple wants to keep things as clean as possible and add as little as possible. I don't think that this equates to something that is dumbed down, though. In some instances, e. g. webOS-style multitasking, they should have added a feature earlier, but overall I think it prevents feature creep. Ditto for Widgets, I think it'd be technically very easy to create a »Dashboard for iOS« and support for Widgets in the SDK. I'm prejudiced in so far that I don't use Widgets and I have seen very few people using them (beyond the widgets that are installed by default).
It's just a matter of perspective, tbh.

I'm not going to sit here and scream that it's dumbed-down to everyone. A lot of people prefer having fewer options with their technology. That doesn't bother me.

If someone asks why anyone would want the features that Android provides with its launcher, home screen, and app drawer options, the answer is generally going to be "because it's more flexible and offers more customization than iOS". It's just the opinion of the user; not a hard-and-fast rule for all users of mobile devices.

I get the feeling that some members around here tend to forget that. Nobody's forcing anyone to switch from iOS to Android. If you want to know why someone would use Android over iOS, though, you have to accept that they have their reasons, just like you have yours for not switching.
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Sep 3, 2013, 04:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
It's just a matter of perspective, tbh.
No, of course, I perfectly understand that.
I'm honestly, the best thing that can happen is that ~3 smartphone platforms stick around. In some cases, a smaller platform introduces the right idea at the right time and the others will copy/adopt the idea -- to the benefit of the user. The worst thing that could happen IMO is that one player (most likely Android) takes over the whole market and kills the competition.
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
If someone asks why anyone would want the features that Android provides with its launcher, home screen, and app drawer options, the answer is generally going to be "because it's more flexible and offers more customization than iOS". It's just the opinion of the user; not a hard-and-fast rule for all users of mobile devices.
I'm glad that there is a device that suits your tastes better, you're not alone.
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I get the feeling that some members around here tend to forget that. Nobody's forcing anyone to switch from iOS to Android. If you want to know why someone would use Android over iOS, though, you have to accept that they have their reasons, just like you have yours for not switching.
I think it's beneficial to look to other things every once in a while, even if it doesn't work out. Using Windows Phone to me is like living in a foreign country, it's definitely a good experience (even if I don't end up staying there).
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Sep 3, 2013, 04:21 PM
 
My sentiment was directed more at those who are "confused" or "baffled" as to why anyone would want something other than iOS.

As far as Windows Phone goes, I am pretty fascinated by it. The hardware is slick (I love the colors that Nokia has), and the OS is pretty nice-looking. I went with Android for my new phone because I'm comfortable with it and I really like it. If I have the option to get a Windows phone at my next job, I'll definitely take it, though.

I really wish the Windows Phone OS (is it still WP7? I don't even know anymore) was available for porting to other devices. I'd dual-boot my S4 if I could.
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Sep 3, 2013, 04:29 PM
 
I'm neither confused nor baffled by others preferring other solutions.

What I find baffling is when people claim that Apple is somehow forcing something down everybody's throat.

Apple "forces" their customers to buy a 4" iPhone, I guess. What a weird sentiment, though.
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 04:42 PM
 
It's more that if you want an Apple product for or more reasons, your options are limited. If you want options and flexibility, Android is the only reasonable choice for many people, because with an iPhone, you are very limited in what the OS can do and what you can do with the OS.

You come across as being confused (for lack of a better word) by one's preference for anything non-Apple, particularly when someone states what they like about $x competing product, and your response is essentially "well, Apple's product can do $this and $that, so your preference for $competition is invalid" - and no, you don't have to use those exact words for that sentiment to be expressed.
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Sep 3, 2013, 04:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
As far as Windows Phone goes, I am pretty fascinated by it. The hardware is slick (I love the colors that Nokia has), and the OS is pretty nice-looking.
The OS and many of the WP phones are pretty nice looking. I have an LG which looks nice enough, but it's markedly less beautiful than Nokia's WP phones.

But at least Windows Phone 7.8 (which is what my phone runs) feels like a strange mixture of old and new:
- It's not very gesture-centric, and I have gotten used to gestures for navigation and such. That makes the OS feel old to me. Sort of the reverse of iOS 6 where the »skin« feels old but the UI »dynamics« feel new.
- The back button. I hate it. In the browser it usually brings you back to the last page you have opened. Unless you switched to the browser from another app (e. g. an e-mail), then it brings you to the home screen.
- It doesn't sync with Macs.
- The browser's UI doesn't quite square with the rest, it doesn't feel like it is based on the same UI paradigms.
- The browser is not very compatible with many responsive designs and noticeably slower than Safari on my 4S. I reckon that Microsoft has improved both points with Windows Phone 8 -- but I can't test that, because … 
- I can't upgrade my phone to WP8.

What I really like is the mail client, if it were available as a paid app on the iTunes App Store, I'd buy it in a heart beat. I can feel that it has received a lot of love and attention from the developers. The only criticism I'd levy is that I can't view PDF attachments directly.
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I really wish the Windows Phone OS (is it still WP7? I don't even know anymore) was available for porting to other devices. I'd dual-boot my S4 if I could.
BTW, just out of curiosity, did you go for the stock Android version of the S4? And why didn't you get the HTC One?
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Sep 3, 2013, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
But the reality is you're not saying anything at all just that iOS isn't tired.
Actually no, I'm not saying that. I said "I guess that's why they're redoing the design".

Also, I agree that Apple is copying the Win Phone 8 design - I've said so several times since the reveal. It's ironic to be sure.

Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
The Mini... come on... you're smarter than this. The Mini doesn't sell well. How do I know? 1. Apple doesn't report sales figures for it. If it sold so well they'd be reporting sales numbers like blah million sold last quarter, etc.
No, they wouldn't. They almost never report sales on part of a segment.

I know that they were hard to get after launch because I tried very hard to buy one, that's how. They weren't available again until February. I'm sure sales are down now that a refresh is approaching - this was always going to be a short life product - but it's hardly a failure in any sense of the word.

Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
On Retina. You 're forgetting about the Kindle Fires...
Kindle Fire HD 7" is 216 ppi. I wonder how far away you'd have to sit for that to be "retina".
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
BTW, just out of curiosity, did you go for the stock Android version of the S4? And why didn't you get the HTC One?
I was going to use stock, but I realized that it's bloated and has a lot of crapware I don't use. All the cool facial and gesture control features only work in a handful of apps, most of which I don't use.

I ended up installing TWRP and using that to flash Cyanogenmod 10.2. It's been pretty ballin' thus far.

I went with the S4 over the HTC One because (a) it has a user-serviceable battery, (b) I knew for a fact that the bootloader was unlocked and it would be extremely easy to root and/or flash a custom ROM, and (c) I was pretty disappointed in my HTC Evo 4G. It wasn't a terrible horrible phone, but at the same time, it wasn't great. Also, because the Galaxy series is so popular, I knew getting community support for it would be easy, and finding accessories (cases and the like) would be easy.
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Sep 3, 2013, 05:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
It's more that if you want an Apple product for or more reasons, your options are limited. If you want options and flexibility, Android is the only reasonable choice for many people, because with an iPhone, you are very limited in what the OS can do and what you can do with the OS.

You come across as being confused (for lack of a better word) by one's preference for anything non-Apple, particularly when someone states what they like about $x competing product, and your response is essentially "well, Apple's product can do $this and $that, so your preference for $competition is invalid" - and no, you don't have to use those exact words for that sentiment to be expressed.
...or read into what I write, I guess.

FWIW, I think you make a perfectly good case for wanting to use an Android phone. And even a Galaxy, no less (the HTC One is the first Android phone I've seen that would present a real alternative should I be put off iPhones for some reason).

I think your confusion about my posts stems from the fact that I deal more with misleading claims made when justifying NOT buying an Apple product. It's like your claims about the AppleTV when you're talking about the Chromecast. Claiming that the Apple TV is not stand-alone because it requires a power cable and a TV is, for lack of a better word, irritating.
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I was going to use stock, but I realized that it's bloated and has a lot of crapware I don't use. All the cool facial and gesture control features only work in a handful of apps, most of which I don't use.

I ended up installing TWRP and using that to flash Cyanogenmod 10.2. It's been pretty ballin' thus far.

I went with the S4 over the HTC One because (a) it has a user-serviceable battery, (b) I knew for a fact that the bootloader was unlocked and it would be extremely easy to root and/or flash a custom ROM, and (c) I was pretty disappointed in my HTC Evo 4G. It wasn't a terrible horrible phone, but at the same time, it wasn't great. Also, because the Galaxy series is so popular, I knew getting community support for it would be easy, and finding accessories (cases and the like) would be easy.
Pretty much the same reasons I went with S4 versus the HTC One. Well those reasons, and the fact that the HTC One wasn't available on Verizon until a week ago. And the micro-SD slot for external storage.

I, however, made the mistake of taking the OTA update to ME7 and now I can't use TWRP to flash custom ROMs. Hoping Hashcode gets Safe Strap (it was awesome on my Droid RAZR) working on the S4 - he's apparently working on porting it.

The stock OS is pretty great though for me. I don't use the gestures and such but it's plenty fast and responsive once I froze the bloat-ware.
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
- It doesn't sync with Macs.
What do you mean it doesn't sync with Macs?

Want to take your stuff with you wherever you go? Just sync it to your phone. Whether you have a PC or a Mac, syncing music, pictures, and videos with your Windows Phone is easy.

Windows Phone app for Mac | Windows Phone 8 | Windows Phone How-to | Windows Phone (United States)

And contacts and stuff...

Welcome Home to Windows Phone
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 07:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
No, they wouldn't. They almost never report sales on part of a segment.
Yes, they would report sales if they were any good, because it would give Apple's PR something to talk about. Apple's done this time and time again.

Originally Posted by P View Post
I know that they were hard to get after launch because I tried very hard to buy one, that's how. They weren't available again until February. I'm sure sales are down now that a refresh is approaching - this was always going to be a short life product - but it's hardly a failure in any sense of the word.
Come on... you're better than not looking at the data. Go look at the data. You don't have to guess... This product is as of yesterday 10 months old. That's not a short life product. It's almost 1 year old already...

The sales have been ~25-30% of total iPad sales each quarter. If it was so popular it would be making up a larger percentage of sales. But it isn't. Most people are still opting for the larger iPad.

My look on it is that the screen and overall value proposition just isn't good enough for people to want to buy it, particularly at the price point it's at. And particularly because you've got too much competition at this size and price:

Kindle Fire HD 8.9": 254 ppi

Yes, the 7" Fire HD is 216 ppi, but that's a massive step up from the iPad Mini at its 163 ppi.

You've also got the Kobo Arc7 HD at 323 ppi. And more Android tablets on the way...
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
It's more that if you want a Apple product pink unicorn, your options are limited.
Fixed that for you.

-t
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 07:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I ended up installing TWRP and using that to flash Cyanogenmod 10.2. It's been pretty ballin' thus far.

I went with the S4 over the HTC One because (a) it has a user-serviceable battery, (b) I knew for a fact that the bootloader was unlocked and it would be extremely easy to root and/or flash a custom ROM, and (c) I was pretty disappointed in my HTC Evo 4G.
And this is why I'm going to recommend my mom to get an Android phone.
Or any other non-geek, for that matter.

-t
     
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Sep 3, 2013, 11:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
What do you mean it doesn't sync with Macs?
I have already downloaded the Windows Phone app and used it to load some music onto my phone. But the Windows Phone app does not sync contacts or bookmarks. But I should have been more precise.

I did not know about the app which you linked to for the contacts, but it does not seem to be compatible with my WP7 phone (it's an LG, not a Nokia).
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Sep 3, 2013, 11:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
I, however, made the mistake of taking the OTA update to ME7 and now I can't use TWRP to flash custom ROMs. Hoping Hashcode gets Safe Strap (it was awesome on my Droid RAZR) working on the S4 - he's apparently working on porting it.

The stock OS is pretty great though for me. I don't use the gestures and such but it's plenty fast and responsive once I froze the bloat-ware.
That sucks. It pisses me off that AT&T and Verizon are so intent on locking down their phones.

The Sprint and T-Mobile versions of the S4 have unlocked bootloaders - I just put it in the download boot mode and used Odin3 to flash it.

I know that you used to be able to unlock the bootloader on the Verizon version - did the latest OTA update block that?

Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
And this is why I'm going to recommend my mom to get an Android phone.
Or any other non-geek, for that matter.

-t
Yeeeeeah....I just like having a custom ROM. For 95% of S4 owners, the stock ROM is great.

But if you want to extrapolate that a geek like me modding their phone means that nobody else should use Android....ooookay.
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Sep 4, 2013, 02:25 AM
 
Well, I hear that the Galaxy is just fine once you freeze the bloatware, so mom should be perfectly okay...once she figures out what the hell that means, and how to do it.
     
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Sep 4, 2013, 02:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
The sales have been ~25-30% of total iPad sales each quarter. If it was so popular it would be making up a larger percentage of sales. But it isn't. Most people are still opting for the larger iPad.
Funny how Every. Single. Estimate. I could find disagrees with you.

Apple's iPad Mini makes up 60 percent of iOS sales- The Inquirer
     
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Sep 4, 2013, 02:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Funny how Every. Single. Estimate. I could find disagrees with you.

Apple's iPad Mini makes up 60 percent of iOS sales- The Inquirer
Go read Apple's earnings reports. The answers... you will find in there.
     
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Sep 4, 2013, 02:44 AM
 
Apple doesn't break down their sales into iPad models.

However, the average sales price for iPads took a substantial hit in fiscal quarter 1 2013 (when the mini was introduced), and has only dropped since, implying pretty massive sales of the iPad mini, and an INCREASE since then.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/23/45...-2013-earnings
     
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Sep 4, 2013, 03:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Apple doesn't break down their sales into iPad models.

However, the average sales price for iPads took a substantial hit in fiscal quarter 1 2013 (when the mini was introduced), and has only dropped since, implying pretty massive sales of the iPad mini, and an INCREASE since then.

Apple posts $6.9 billion profit in Q3 as iPad sales shrink to 14.6 million | The Verge
He's speaking first, then running out to Google... and not even reading the data right...
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 4, 2013, 03:29 AM
 
Actually, I went to Google first and found the "sixty percent" figure above. After you just discounted that without dismantling the claims themselves, I set about finding the numbers, specifically the ASP, which is the only number apart from sales that Apple DOES report. The link I posted was merely the first one to have a graphic that rather nicely illustrates the dip the iPad ASP took upon introduction of the mini, from where it has continued downwards.

Well, then, how about presenting your analysis of the situation, leading up to the conclusion that the iPad mini is not selling?

Please, do go ahead.
     
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Sep 4, 2013, 06:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
Yes, they would report sales if they were any good, because it would give Apple's PR something to talk about. Apple's done this time and time again.
So quote me a few. Part of a segment, actual figures.

Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
Come on... you're better than not looking at the data. Go look at the data. You don't have to guess... This product is as of yesterday 10 months old. That's not a short life product. It's almost 1 year old already...
So where is that data, then?

The iPad launched with internals identical to the iPad 2 (with some very minor differences) - already 18 months old at that point. It was obviously not going to be a long term stayer. It sold very well at launch, but I would expect those sales to drop the way they always do before a refresh.

Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
The sales have been ~25-30% of total iPad sales each quarter. If it was so popular it would be making up a larger percentage of sales. But it isn't. Most people are still opting for the larger iPad.
1) Citation needed on the percentages.
2) Even if true and the two 10" models sell even more, that doesn't mean that the mini is a failure in the Surface sense of the word. The original iPad is the iconic product that essentially created the entire category - any other manufacturer would be ecstatic if they could sell half of that.

Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
My look on it is that the screen and overall value proposition just isn't good enough for people to want to buy it, particularly at the price point it's at. And particularly because you've got too much competition at this size and price:
Sure it's expensive compared to some of the garbage tablets out there, and you have Google and Amazon selling hardware at cost. That it sells anyway is a sign of strength.

(I suspect that it's hard to sell without holding it, because much of the appeal compared to one of the 10" is the size and weight.)


Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
Kindle Fire HD 8.9": 254 ppi

Yes, the 7" Fire HD is 216 ppi, but that's a massive step up from the iPad Mini at its 163 ppi.
Sure, but that's not what you said. You said, paraphrase, that the mini doesn't stand up in a market where things have become cheap with a ppi over 350. That simply isn't the case. You have yet to quote a single tablet with ppi over 350, and only two over 300 - both of which launched recently, long after the mini launch.

Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
You've also got the Kobo Arc7 HD at 323 ppi.
That one launched a week ago.

Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
And more Android tablets on the way...
So is the next mini, and the mini after that. The mini stood up well at launch, and the first similar tablet with a better display was the Nexus 7 2013 - which was what, 9 months later?
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Sep 4, 2013, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Well, I hear that the Galaxy is just fine once you freeze the bloatware, so mom should be perfectly okay...once she figures out what the hell that means, and how to do it.
You do realize that 90% of smartphone owners today just use it for texting, facebook, and Angry Birds, right?
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sek929
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Sep 4, 2013, 11:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
You do realize that 90% of smartphone owners today just use it for texting, facebook, and Angry Birds, right?
Yeah, I feel like the Apple faithful here are taking the whole idea of rooting and custom ROMs and running with it until that's the only way you can use the damn phone properly. That is not the case.

I know we have a level of tech user here that demands the finest hardware and software on the planet, but stock Androids are plenty functional. Not to mention there's something here that folks seem to be overlooking, the price gap. I can get a free S4 from T-mobile today, while an iPhone 5 is going to be 200+ easily. When you don't care about how hard a phone is to code for or whether or not the stock OS meets your lofty requirements aren't we all just looking for a glorified web browser on the go that can make phone calls? The way these Android threads have gone remind me of the old Mac vs PC days, and not in a good way.
     
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Sep 4, 2013, 11:13 AM
 
The free S4 from T-Mobile ended on Sept. 2, unless there's something else going on. It wasn't even really "free", it was $0 down and you still had to pay $25/mo. on top of the service.

Phones aren't hard to code for, not in the slightest. They're essentially touch computers. If you can program for OS X, you can program for the iPhone. Similarly for Android and Java.

I'm not looking for a web browser, I'm looking for something I can have a little fun with. I realize that puts me in the "1%" of users but that's fine by me. I haven't been this excited about developing for something in a long time.

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Sep 4, 2013, 11:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
aren't we all just looking for a glorified web browser on the go that can make phone calls?


I haven't used a personal cell phone primarily for phone calls since I got my iPhone.

Smartphones are particularly useful for playing games during long Metro rides or using Wikipedia to prove someone wrong during an argument.
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Sep 4, 2013, 12:08 PM
 
You have a point.

I'd add maps and metro or bus timetables to that list.
Navigation is also increasingly high up on the list for casual users who drive.
And music and a camera are a given.

Most smartphones can handle that more or less well.

The matter of updates, however, is not trivial, even if the casual user doesn't have it on his radar. If only for security reasons.
     
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Sep 4, 2013, 12:10 PM
 
I think security updates still come as needed to older devices, it's more that you won't get upgraded to a newer version of Android on an older device unless you use a third-party ROM.

My Evo 4G, for instance, never officially went past Gingerbread.

Fortunately GB is still supported by most apps. It's only been recently that apps have started requiring ICS or newer.
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Sep 4, 2013, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
So quote me a few. Part of a segment, actual figures.

So where is that data, then?
The data is available through multiple sources. We pay for data that includes two things that we look at: supplier estimates and actual Web marketshare. That is, how many of the devices are being used online compared to others. This informs us of what's actually out there and being used. You can also use Apple's quarterly earnings and extrapolate based on the data they provide. Based on all of this information, the estimates are about 4-5 million iPad Mini sales per quarter. You obviously don't have to take this as fact. If you access the data and study it... you can come to your own conclusions. This 4-5 million estimate is included in reports we buy but is also consistent with our own numbers cross referencing different datasets and doing our own calculations based on historical sales data.

We take this stuff seriously because we don't want to waste time developing for devices that don't have the market dominance. The Mini isn't bad, but we were just not seeing a lot of use with it. We dumped our testing units about 3 months ago.

Originally Posted by P View Post
The iPad launched with internals identical to the iPad 2 (with some very minor differences) - already 18 months old at that point. It was obviously not going to be a long term stayer. It sold very well at launch, but I would expect those sales to drop the way they always do before a refresh.
Didn't you say the iPad Mini was a short-cycle product? It's not clear what your point is here...

Originally Posted by P View Post
1) Citation needed on the percentages.
2) Even if true and the two 10" models sell even more, that doesn't mean that the mini is a failure in the Surface sense of the word. The original iPad is the iconic product that essentially created the entire category - any other manufacturer would be ecstatic if they could sell half of that.
When compared to the iPhone and the full size iPad...

Originally Posted by P View Post
Sure, but that's not what you said. You said, paraphrase, that the mini doesn't stand up in a market where things have become cheap with a ppi over 350. That simply isn't the case. You have yet to quote a single tablet with ppi over 350, and only two over 300 - both of which launched recently, long after the mini launch. That one launched a week ago.
You're right, and I was wrong. That was a mistake. It should have said 250. I've never seen or heard of a 350 ppi tablet myself either.

Originally Posted by P View Post
So is the next mini, and the mini after that. The mini stood up well at launch, and the first similar tablet with a better display was the Nexus 7 2013 - which was what, 9 months later?
You have absolutely no idea how the Mini stood at launch, because Apple never quoted Mini sales numbers on opening weekend. In fact, Apple just made a BS PR statement that 3 million iPads sold the first weekend (iPad 4 and Mini first weekend sales). What they didn't tell you is this is the exact same number of units sold compared to the iPad 3 opening weekend. Yet, they launched two new products here and in almost triple the number of countries. Stop drinking that koolaid my friend... it'll poison your mind.
     
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Sep 4, 2013, 01:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
When you don't care about how hard a phone is to code for or whether or not the stock OS meets your lofty requirements aren't we all just looking for a glorified web browser on the go that can make phone calls?
Definitely not, to me, it's really about apps. My iPhone, a bike holder and two $10 app have replaced a $300 Japanese dictionary and a $300 bike GPS, for instance. I don't have many apps on Windows Phone and I still tend to use my iPhone for a lot of things even though I have to use my Windows Phone phone to provide internet access. (For instance, there is no good bike navigation software for Windows Phone. My brother has tried several (it's his phone and he's also an avid mountain biker), but they were derived from car navigation GPS, and they have the tendency to want to put you on the road.)

I was pretty late to the smartphone game (I got my first one in 2012), but it really has transformed how I live and work.

You can make an argument that a certain number of core apps (mail, web, calendar, navigation, public transportation schedules) would cover the needs of most, and thus, if you were to integrate them into the OS, you'd cover many more usage scenarios so that users don't rely on a quality app ecosystem. But if smartphones were to become glorified web browsers, we, the users, would be much worse off. Because there are many usage scenarios we haven't thought of yet where smartphones are useful.

In Japan, for instance, iPhones are used in stores and restaurants to manage orders and check whether an item is in stock. You don't have to buy a specialized piece of hardware, but you can just get a regular smartphone. (I have never seen someone use an Android device for that, though.)
Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
The data is available through multiple sources. We pay for data that includes two things that we look at: supplier estimates and actual Web marketshare. That is, how many of the devices are being used online compared to others. This informs us of what's actually out there and being used.
Then why don't you provide links to data? You're not furthering the discussion by merely making claims which don't square with the accepted analysts' estimates.
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Sep 4, 2013, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Then why don't you provide links to data? You're not furthering the discussion by merely making claims which don't square with the accepted analysts' estimates.
Go to MarketResearch, NetApplications, comScore, and the many others, pull out your wallet, and buy the data reports. I'm not here to pick up your tab that costs thousands of dollars to buy. And even if I wanted to post info, I'd need permission. But nevermind, just go with what you think. You don't need me to tell you guys, you seem to be confident with what you have so that's that.

I really also think I need to stop bothering posting on here. LOL. I've enjoyed spilling my guts to you guys about the eBook business, but I don't see this being productive anymore.

Thanks for listening... it's been like free psychotherapy. I've never been able to share my true feelings about Apple and the eBook business to anyone. I've really enjoyed the chats.

I'll give a $20 gift certificate to our upcoming store to the first 10 people who I guess private messages me on here? That is probably the way to do it.
     
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Sep 4, 2013, 03:09 PM
 
Oh, don't leave - it's good to have people around who don't fit the mold of your average Apple fanboy.
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Sep 4, 2013, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
The data is available through multiple sources. We pay for data that includes two things that we look at: supplier estimates and actual Web marketshare. That is, how many of the devices are being used online compared to others. This informs us of what's actually out there and being used. You can also use Apple's quarterly earnings and extrapolate based on the data they provide. Based on all of this information, the estimates are about 4-5 million iPad Mini sales per quarter. You obviously don't have to take this as fact. If you access the data and study it... you can come to your own conclusions. This 4-5 million estimate is included in reports we buy but is also consistent with our own numbers cross referencing different datasets and doing our own calculations based on historical sales data.

We take this stuff seriously because we don't want to waste time developing for devices that don't have the market dominance. The Mini isn't bad, but we were just not seeing a lot of use with it. We dumped our testing units about 3 months ago.
So explain how you read Apple's financials to come to that conclusion. You can't just refer to paywalled reports as the truth and expect anyone to believe you - especially as Spheric keeps digging up tidbits that point in the other direction. I might as well claim that I have paywalled reports that say that 90% of S4 buyers are trained rodents who have escaped from the circus and actually buy the phones to bodyboard on.

Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
Didn't you say the iPad Mini was a short-cycle product? It's not clear what your point is here...
Apple released a new iPad based on the same hardware as the iPad 2 (almost, but the differences are not relevant here) when they had better hardware around. This is actually significant, because AFAICT it's the first time they've released a new iOS device based on older hardware when newer is available. They had to know that it would be eclipsed by better hardware fairly soon.

Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
When compared to the iPhone and the full size iPad...
So anything that sells less than the iPhone and the iPad is not enough to bother with?

Originally Posted by theothersteve View Post
You have absolutely no idea how the Mini stood at launch, because Apple never quoted Mini sales numbers on opening weekend.
Stood up specwise compared to other 7-8" tablets available at launch.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
 
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