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tonewheel · Aug 24, 2009, 01:13 PM

When I upgraded to Leopard back when it first came out, I chose the option to simply update the existing Tiger OS. Is went smoothly, and I have never had a problem since. I know there's been remendous debate about a clean OS install, archive install, etc.

My current config is a maindrive of 1 terrabyte. I have an identical drive that I use for Time Machine backups. I'd like your opinions as to...

A - Perform a simply OS update from Leopard to Snow Leopard.
B - Let the Snow Leopard disc erase my primary drive, then perform a Time Machine backup.
C - Let the Snow Leopard disc erase my primary drive, reinstall every app from their original discs, the perform a Time Machine backup of my User folder.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

FireWire · Aug 24, 2009, 04:11 PM

Personally I'll be doing B

Simon · Aug 24, 2009, 04:12 PM

Be smart. Start out with the simpest method first: update.

If you should then run into any issues, you can always go back and do a clean install. If not, you'll have saved yourself a lot of time and hassle.

Gankdawg · Aug 24, 2009, 05:22 PM

I'm going to invoke a TM backup and after that's done, I'll turn off TM backups and then do the update. After the reboot, and as long as nothing jumps out and bites me, I'll turn it back on.

FireWire · Aug 24, 2009, 06:18 PM

According to this AppleInsider article,

Options to "Erase and Install" and "Archive and Install" are no longer present in the Mac OS X 10.6 installer. According to those familiar with the software, this was done for convenience, so that users do not accidentally erase and install their Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard partitions. However, "Erase and Install" remains available through Disk Utility, which is also included on the installation DVD.

Damn it, Apple, can you keep it simple for advanced users?

tonewheel · Aug 24, 2009, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by FireWire

According to this AppleInsider article, Damn it, Apple, can you keep it simple for advanced users?

This surprises me. Apple must have extreme confidence in its Installer, believing that removing/replacing/patching files will provide a consistent and foolproof installation. I dunno....

- - e r i k - - · Aug 24, 2009, 08:42 PM

Snow Leopard installer is extremely clever. A simple "Upgrade" will be sufficient for 99.9% of users.

Simon · Aug 25, 2009, 04:04 AM

Originally Posted by FireWire

Damn it, Apple, can you keep it simple for advanced users?

They are.

They're trying to persuade power-users to doing it the simple Apple way rather than the tedious geek way (some would also call it the "Windows way"). They know perfectly well that some geeks believe the geek way has advantages, but they also know that 99% of that is baloney.

They're doing you a favor. Even if you don't believe it.

Veltliner · Aug 25, 2009, 04:09 AM

I'm going from Tiger to Snow Leopard.

Same game? Just updating the OS?

I'm just balking at the idea of reinstalling Final Cut Pro. It takes hours from the discs. On the other hand, I could simply copy the apps to my external hard drive, and then have an erase/install, and then pull the applications back onto the main hard drive.

My only question is: there are some Final Cut Studio files spread over library and elsewhere. Will those install automatically when I pull the apps across, or would I lose them (which would only leave me the disc install should I run into trouble by performing the regular OS replacement)?

Simon · Aug 25, 2009, 04:30 AM

Why don't you backup first (either through TM or with a clone) and then try it the simple way first: just update.

If you end up encountering problems you can always go back and do the E&I. You lose nothing by trying it the 'easy way' first.

OreoCookie · Aug 25, 2009, 04:43 AM

Why are you all so scared? As long you have a backup (e. g. an up-to-date Time Machine backup), nothing disastrous can happen. Just go with the default and see if your app of choice works. If it doesn't, try to reinstall it. My user was first created under 10.0.3 (!) and an update has always worked for me so far (although I did have to use Migration Assistant a few times when I got a new machine, obviously).

Don't make this harder than it actually is.

FireWire · Aug 25, 2009, 05:02 AM

Why not? It will take about the same time and you'll be sure to have zero problem. And since when do we trust Apple updates? Don't we recommand always using the combo updater instead of using Software Update?

I know we don't have a registry per se, but I'm sure things will be cleaner with a clean install!

Chuckit · Aug 25, 2009, 05:10 AM

Until you put everything back — then it will be the same as ever, only you'll be out a couple of hours.

Simon · Aug 25, 2009, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by FireWire

Why not? It will take about the same time and you'll be sure to have zero problem.

Actually it will take at least 1-2 hours longer (maybe even many more if you have a lot of apps that need to be installed) and you're no more or less sure to have zero problems.

And since when do we trust Apple updates? Don't we recommand always using the combo updater instead of using Software Update?

No, actually we don't. Always using the combo update is like always repairing permissions. It's generalized pseudo-advice. If you don't know why it should help you but you do it because "it can't hurt", you're just hoping to be lucky. Kind of like voodoo.

People recommend using the combo update when an update fails. But usually the update fails because the system was screwed up before already and the update simply triggers obvious failure. Only in very rare cases it's actually the updater itself that's screwed up (although that can happen). The SL installer is smart. It will take care of problems like this by re-installing system files that are missing or have been corrupted. It then goes even further by re-applying the previously installed decimal updates for you.

I know we don't have a registry per se, but I'm sure things will be cleaner with a clean install!

Exactly. This is Mac OS X, it's not Windows. So stop treating it like it were Windows. There's no reason to wipe a Mac every so often. It's not beneficial, it won't magically solve problems, and it's a huge waste of time. Instead, treat your Mac like a Mac and use its smart tools the way they were intended. In 99% of the time, you'll be fine that way. And if you happen to be affected by the remaining 1%, well that's what this board is for.

For the record, of course you can install SL in whatever way you want. And you are of course free to waste a weekend wiping, installing SL, then installing all your apps from scratch, and restoring all your settings. It's your time. But please don't come here and advertise this method as something which will benefit others. Even if it might make you feel better, in general it's not going to help users.

AKcrab · Aug 25, 2009, 05:54 AM

This thread needs more repairing of permissions.

OreoCookie · Aug 25, 2009, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by FireWire

Why not? It will take about the same time and you'll be sure to have zero problem. And since when do we trust Apple updates?

All releases have updated flawlessly for me. Never once did I have problems.
And it doesn't take the same time as you still have to migrate your data -- which takes a few hours extra depending on the amount of data you need to copy.

Originally Posted by FireWire

Don't we recommand always using the combo updater instead of using Software Update?

No, I don't recommend it as standard procedure. Unless the user has a problem after using the regular update, there is no real reason to use combo updates.

Originally Posted by FireWire

I know we don't have a registry per se, but I'm sure things will be cleaner with a clean install!

Most of the `dirt' is in your user directory. After you migrate, your install is about as `dirty' as before.

Again, your system won't be faster just because there are a few extra files present that simply accumulate after some usage.

- - e r i k - - · Aug 25, 2009, 06:26 AM

Seriously. You could pull the plug mid-update on the Snow Leopard install and it will continue without batting a lash. It is that smart.

Veltliner · Aug 25, 2009, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

Why don't you backup first (either through TM or with a clone) and then try it the simple way first: just update.

If you end up encountering problems you can always go back and do the E&I. You lose nothing by trying it the 'easy way' first.

As I'm still on Tiger, I don't have yet time machine. But if I do a clone, it would clone Tiger, too.

I have no trouble with pulling files manually across, except for those final cut studio files that are strewn over the library. The library is obviously part of Tiger, so I wonder what good a clone would do me.

Veltliner · Aug 25, 2009, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

There's no reason to wipe a Mac every so often. It's not beneficial, it won't magically solve problems, and it's a huge waste of time. Instead, treat your Mac like a Mac and use its smart tools the way they were intended. In 99% of the time, you'll be fine that way. And if you happen to be affected by the remaining 1%, well that's what this board is for.

For the record, of course you can install SL in whatever way you want. And you are of course free to waste a weekend wiping, installing SL, then installing all your apps from scratch, and restoring all your settings. It's your time. But please don't come here and advertise this method as something which will benefit others. Even if it might make you feel better, in general it's not going to help users.

I never moved up to a different OS, so I wanted to make sure.

So, the easy way to just swap the OS and leave all the applications and files where they seems to be the best ways to do?

Which is really a matter of hours, not only because of the huge loading time of FCP, but also because my disc is 90% full with iTunes and digital images files.

Well, some of us owned a PC in the past. In my case, that was ten years ago. I guess it takes a while to lose the Windows trauma

Veltliner · Aug 25, 2009, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Seriously. You could pull the plug mid-update on the Snow Leopard install and it will continue without batting a lash. It is that smart.

Very impressive!

Veltliner · Aug 25, 2009, 11:12 PM

So there's no difference in between updating from Leopard, or, like in my case, updating from Tiger?

turtle777 · Aug 25, 2009, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by FireWire

Don't we recommand always using the combo updater instead of using Software Update?

I think in all my years (from OS X 10.0 to 10.5), I have only twice or so used the combo updater. All other times, I just used Software Update. I never had any major issues.

-t

OreoCookie · Aug 26, 2009, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by Veltliner

I have no trouble with pulling files manually across, except for those final cut studio files that are strewn over the library. The library is obviously part of Tiger, so I wonder what good a clone would do me.

It's completely unnecessary to do that by hand. Just use the default settings of the installer (after you've made a backup, of course), grab a cup of coffee and start working after it has finished.

Originally Posted by Veltliner

I never moved up to a different OS, so I wanted to make sure.

So, the easy way to just swap the OS and leave all the applications and files where they seems to be the best ways to do?

Yes. Has worked since 10.0 at least. (I have used, but not migrated from the Public Beta.) As I said before, my user account was created on 10.0.3! I've never lost any data due to upgrades.

Veltliner · Aug 26, 2009, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

It's completely unnecessary to do that by hand. Just use the default settings of the installer (after you've made a backup, of course), grab a cup of coffee and start working after it has finished.

Yes. Has worked since 10.0 at least. (I have used, but not migrated from the Public Beta.) As I said before, my user account was created on 10.0.3! I've never lost any data due to upgrades.

Thanks. Good to know.

Just a great feeling if things just work.

I have double back-ups of everything anyway, just in case.

Chuckit · Aug 26, 2009, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by turtle777

I think in all my years (from OS X 10.0 to 10.5), I have only twice or so used the combo updater. All other times, I just used Software Update. I never had any major issues.

-t

Ditto. A combo updater just hasn't been necessary for me.

Simon · Aug 26, 2009, 03:59 AM

Thirded. On my Macs I have never had to resort to using the combo updater. I have been using update installs (and MA when going to a new Mac) exclusively since 10.3 IIRC.

OreoCookie · Aug 26, 2009, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Veltliner

I have double back-ups of everything anyway, just in case.

Just for emphasis (and not necessarily directed at you): you don't make backups before an update, because you don't trust the OS X installer, but just because it's always a good idea to have backups.

CharlesS · Aug 26, 2009, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by AKcrab

This thread needs more repairing of permissions.

Make sure to repair permissions both before and after repairing permissions.

OreoCookie · Aug 26, 2009, 06:45 AM

That'd send you straight to the Mothership Campus!

Veltliner · Aug 27, 2009, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Just for emphasis (and not necessarily directed at you): you don't make backups before an update, because you don't trust the OS X installer, but just because it's always a good idea to have backups.

I generally have two back-up copies of most things, certain files only have one back-up (for now, until I get my next, big, big external hard drive). Has nothing to do with the OS X upgrade.

CharlesS · Aug 27, 2009, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

That'd send you straight to the Mothership Campus!

But it makes such a pretty fractal pattern.

cgc · Aug 27, 2009, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by tonewheel

When I upgraded to Leopard back when it first came out, I chose the option to simply update the existing Tiger OS. Is went smoothly, and I have never had a problem since. I know there's been remendous debate about a clean OS install, archive install, etc.

My current config is a maindrive of 1 terrabyte. I have an identical drive that I use for Time Machine backups. I'd like your opinions as to...

A - Perform a simply OS update from Leopard to Snow Leopard.
B - Let the Snow Leopard disc erase my primary drive, then perform a Time Machine backup.
C - Let the Snow Leopard disc erase my primary drive, reinstall every app from their original discs, the perform a Time Machine backup of my User folder.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Option B is not a good one...you should backup BEFORE you erase your drive or did you mean "perform a Time Machine restore"?

olePigeon · Aug 27, 2009, 01:37 PM

Option D: Erase, install from scratch.

Chuckit · Aug 27, 2009, 02:02 PM

I'm just going to do an update and yell at Apple if it messes anything up.

tonewheel · Aug 27, 2009, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by cgc

Option B is not a good one...you should backup BEFORE you erase your drive or did you mean "perform a Time Machine restore"?

Yep...Time Machine restore.

timmerk · Aug 27, 2009, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

My user was first created under 10.0.3 (!)

I don't mean to brag, but my user account was first created in DP3!

OreoCookie · Aug 27, 2009, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by timmerk

I don't mean to brag, but my user account was first created in DP3!

I've only briefly worked with DP3 and then quite a bit more with the Public Beta, but alas, back then, my Mac was not OS X ready.

0157988944 · Aug 27, 2009, 06:15 PM

Update is the way to go. Unless you spend your time mucking around in the System and Library folders and "modding" things, there's no reason to wipe your drive for a fresh start. The SL installer is smart.

NoBackUp · Aug 28, 2009, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

Update is the way to go. Unless you spend your time mucking around in the System and Library folders and "modding" things, there's no reason to wipe your drive for a fresh start. The SL installer is smart.

Updating killed my internet sharing !!!

now going for clean install just to check that all is well

Simon · Aug 28, 2009, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by NoBackUp

Updating killed my internet sharing !!!
now going for clean install just to check that all is well

How do you know it was the update that caused your issue if haven't tried anything else yet?

NoBackUp · Aug 28, 2009, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

How do you know it was the update that caused your issue if haven't tried anything else yet?

worked for th last 6 months before the update.... so only thing that has changed is...

tonewheel · Aug 28, 2009, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by NoBackUp

worked for th last 6 months before the update.... so only thing that has changed is...

Good luck with that. But it seems a bit extreme (and really time consuming) to initiate a clean install without first working through the issue, particularly if that is your one and only issue.

NoBackUp · Aug 28, 2009, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by tonewheel

Good luck with that. But it seems a bit extreme (and really time consuming) to initiate a clean install without first working through the issue, particularly if that is your one and only issue.

no mate I found a few odd things... I have 2 other devices I, purposely also updated one of them to see if there was a delta, and yep Sharing works on that one... in General I have also some issue's with Safari Browsing (Across both Machines) and I like to get to the bottom of things

, best to understand the full impact before I even thing of Upgrading on my production box

Simon · Aug 28, 2009, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by NoBackUp

worked for th last 6 months before the update.... so only thing that has changed is...

But your other updated Mac is fine. IOW the update alone is definitely not the cause of your trouble.

NoBackUp · Aug 28, 2009, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

But your other updated Mac is fine. IOW the update alone is definitely not the cause of your trouble.

So tracked down the culprit...

When I first upgraded I installed Rosetta... retraced the steps taken with my other MAC and TaDa done.. now working.. no to replicate with adding Rosetta... from the installer... IOW a function of the installer in the upgrade... lets see

CharlesS · Aug 28, 2009, 03:56 PM

Well, so much for the vaunted Snow Leopard update install. Mine refuses to install on my hard drive (GUID partition table, Leopard's on it, should work), saying "Mac OS X cannot start up from this disk." Wow, this is such an improvement over the old installer. I wonder if it'll even work after I reformat the drive.

Simon · 04:16 AM

Pardon me saying so, but I do find it extremely comical that of all the people that happened exactly to you.

Looks like an insulted SL update installer's revenge.

tooki · Aug 29, 2009, 04:26 AM

FWIW, I've heard through the grapevine that the reason there's no separate Archive and Install option is because the Snow Leopard "Upgrade" option is Archive and Install with some extra smarts. It's actually the old-fashioned upgrade that got the boot.

NoBackUp · Aug 29, 2009, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by tooki

FWIW, I've heard through the grapevine that the reason there's no separate Archive and Install option is because the Snow Leopard "Upgrade" option is Archive and Install with some extra smarts. It's actually the old-fashioned upgrade that got the boot.

Exactly, did an "Install" without "wipe" and it ended up being an A&I

CharlesS · 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

Pardon me saying so, but I do find it extremely comical that of all the people that happened exactly to you.

Looks like an insulted SL update installer's revenge.

Revenge? Or just confirmation that it sucks? You be the judge.

Fortunately, it worked after I reformatted the drive.

Although it was pretty annoying, since I'd been looking forward to seeing what the regular install did, in order to see first-hand whether my concerns were valid or not, and I didn't get to because the installer made me reformat.