[andreas_g4]

I recently talked to someone new at Mac OS X, and the person brought up the issue that OS X doesn't support cyrillic in the way it supports other languages (e.g. chinese). Why is that so? I think the chinese fonts are more complex than the cyrillic ones, so why isn't cyrillic implemented the same way? Any hints on this?

[slugslugslug]

I don't actually know anything about Cyrillic or the languages that use it, but I'm curious: What's deficient in the way Mac OS X supports it? I was definitely under the impression that its typography isn't any more complicated than English.

[analogika]

I don't know too much about the Cyrillic alphabet, but the two Cyrillic keyboard layouts (phonetic qwerty and traditional, with the former apparently more common) that you can simply switch on in the International system preference seemed to make the (I think) three people I've showed them to (IIRC, one Ukrainian working here and two Slavistic-studies students) VERY happy.

There might have been more, I can't remember.

The only complaint I ever heard about Cyrillic support is that there's only like two Cyrillic fonts included with the OS.

Can you try to figure out more specifically what they were complaining about?

[PER3]

Originally Posted by analogika

I don't know too much about the Cyrillic alphabet, but the two Cyrillic keyboard layouts (phonetic qwerty and traditional, with the former apparently more common) that you can simply switch on in the International system preference seemed to make the (I think) three people I've showed them to (IIRC, one Ukrainian working here and two Slavistic-studies students) VERY happy.

There might have been more, I can't remember.

The only complaint I ever heard about Cyrillic support is that there's only like two Cyrillic fonts included with the OS.

Can you try to figure out more specifically what they were complaining about?

I can't see any problems at all.Works fine for me.

An you can even Russify the entire OS (10.4.7 at least. To install, you have to have an OS less than this ) with this:

http://www.apple.ru/macosx/download/

I think there might even be a Ukrainian version out there somewhere.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by andreas_g4

I recently talked to someone new at Mac OS X, and the person brought up the issue that OS X doesn't support cyrillic in the way it supports other languages (e.g. chinese). Why is that so? I think the chinese fonts are more complex than the cyrillic ones, so why isn't cyrillic implemented the same way? Any hints on this?

You answered your own question. There are many thousands of Chinese characters while there are just a good two dozens of Cyrillic ones. Obviously Chinese requires more complicated input methods than Cyrillic, which you can type in just like the Latin alphabet.

[OreoCookie]

OS X has been localized to Russian, cyrillic is fully supported.

[PER3]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

OS X has been localized to Russian, cyrillic is fully supported.

Just to clarify, in OS X, you have always been able to read and write in Cyrillic with no problems.

Having the whole computer interface localised into Russian, for example, is not officially supported, although affiliates of Apple have made available downloads to localise the system into Russian, Ukrainian, Turkish, and Hungarian, amongst others.

The only downside about these localisations is that they are not synchronised with Apple point updates. As a result, if you are running the system with a Russian 10.4.7 and use the official Apple update to 10.4.8 (when it arrives), certain functions will not work and your computer might even hang. Swedish, Dutch, Portugese and all the supported languages will be OK—just not the unsupported ones.

If this happens, everything will work fine if you switch to English in System Preferences > International > Language by bringing English (or other officially supported language) to the top and log out or restart.

When your Apple affiliate releases a new version, you may still have trouble, as it must be a more recent than your installed version. For example, I tried to install Russian 10.4.7 (linked above) on my English 10.4.7, and was refused. It worked fine on earlier versions.

Perhaps there is a workaround by deleting a bill of materials file (BOM) and trying again, but I am not sure.

Perhaps an expert could advise.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by PER3

Just to clarify, in OS X, you have always been able to read and write in Cyrillic with no problems.

No, but I have worked for the company which localizes the OS to Russian. I've met a quite a few of them a few weeks ago. I have personally never worked with a Russian localization.

Originally Posted by PER3

Having the whole computer interface localised into Russian, for example, is not officially supported, although affiliates of Apple have made available downloads to localise the system into Russian, Ukrainian, Turkish, and Hungarian, amongst others.

I have no idea about the other languages that you quote, but Russian is going to be at least a tier 3 language (i. e. essential Apple software will be localized only). And I can tell you for sure that the Russian version of OS X is an official localization. Hence I would be surprised if OS X updates will break the localization.

Originally Posted by PER3

Perhaps an expert could advise.

It's unusual that a language (in this case Russian) is released in mid-cycle, but that's the way it is. For upcoming releases of OS X, a Russian localization will be included by default.

[andreas_g4]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

OS X has been localized to Russian, cyrillic is fully supported.

That's what I thought, but with these settings, not one cyrillic character shows up in my system, even after rebooting. In contrast, placing chinese on top of the list, every newly started app is in chinese.

Am I missing something?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by andreas_g4

That's what I thought, but with these settings, not one cyrillic character shows up in my system, even after rebooting. In contrast, placing chinese on top of the list, every newly started app is in chinese.

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure if the official localization is done yet
I just know it's happening. Sorry if that has caused any confusion.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by andreas_g4

That's what I thought, but with these settings, not one cyrillic character shows up in my system, even after rebooting. In contrast, placing chinese on top of the list, every newly started app is in chinese.

Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something.

There is a difference between Cyrillic and Russian.

Cyrillic is an alphabet that is used to write several eastern European and Asian languages. Mac OS X fully supports the use of the Cyrillic alphabet. You can read web-sites that use this alphabet, you can write texts with this alphabet etc.

Russian is a language. It happens to be written in Cyrillic, but that doesn't mean the language is the same as the alphabet it uses. You could write/transcribe Russian in other alphabets and other language other than Russian use Cyrillic too. Those two terms are not interchangeable. Mac OS X does not come with a Russian localization, but according to PER3's post it seems to be possible to download one.

Whan you drag "Russian" to the top in the list of languages in the "International" preferences, then you are asking the OS to display the Russian localization if available. That is the language the programs use for their interface to communicate with the user. It has nothing to do with which alphabet a user can use. If you want to use the Cyrillic alphabet, then you have to click the "Input Menu" in the same preferences and enable the "Russian" keyboard layout. You can then select this in the menubar and type Cyrillic. You do not have to have a Russian user interface to by able to use Cyrillic. The program itself can be in English, German or any other language and you can still use Cyrillic.

[andreas_g4]

Tentenal, thank you for this elaborate answer. I should have come to this conclusion by myself, *slaps on forehead*, especially with a russian girlfriend…

[PER3]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

No, but I have worked for the company which localizes the OS to Russian. I've met a quite a few of them a few weeks ago. I have personally never worked with a Russian localization.

I have no idea about the other languages that you quote, but Russian is going to be at least a tier 3 language (i. e. essential Apple software will be localized only). And I can tell you for sure that the Russian version of OS X is an official localization. Hence I would be surprised if OS X updates will break the localization.

It's unusual that a language (in this case Russian) is released in mid-cycle, but that's the way it is. For upcoming releases of OS X, a Russian localization will be included by default.

Thanks for the information. It's great to hear that Russian will be supported as a standard, as it's getting a bit old to deal with the idiosyncracies on my friends' computers as the free support man.

Would you be able to explain what exactly is a "Tier 3" language?

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure if the official localization is done yet
I just know it's happening. Sorry if that has caused any confusion.

It is of course extremely unlikely that Apple would release OS X with a Russian (or any other new) localization before 10.5, i.e. next spring.

[PER3]

Originally Posted by andreas_g4

That's what I thought, but with these settings, not one cyrillic character shows up in my system, even after rebooting. In contrast, placing chinese on top of the list, every newly started app is in chinese.

Am I missing something?

Is this what you (or your girlfriend) wanted? If so, check my first link:

[PER3]

PS Just for fun. In the right top of the foremost frame on the left of the last image of my post is a tower that is part of the Kievski train station. It was out of this station that Matt Damon began a car chase in "The Bourne Supremacy". You can even see my flat in the movie... errrr....

Anyway, this must be the only movie in existence that portrays the police of Moscow as confident and effective (to a degree), which is quite a bonus.

To generalise, the cops here are unpleasant and corrupt, so it is a nice twist that an American production should show their professional side – and it does exist.

Disclaimer: In ten years, I've had very good relations with the police here. My black, asian, and other non-white friends have a completely different story.

[PER3]

Stop press!

OreoCookie seems to be right.

After enabling Russian, I am seeing a Russian interface in iTunes 7! And this is without the apple.ru localisation I linked above.

Let's just hope that oil prices keep rising!

Even the "Help" menu is in Russian, which is a first for any of these localisations.

[PER3]

There seems to be a Ukrainian choice as well—although at the moment it defaults to Russian.

At this rate, soon we'll catch up to Ubuntu...

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by PER3

There seems to be a Ukrainian choice as well.

You can see the localization (lproj) files by doing Control+click on the iTunes mkpg. The only new one so far is ru.

[PER3]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

You can see the localization (lproj) files by doing Control+click on the iTunes mkpg. The only new one so far is ru.

Very interesting, thanks.

But why does one see a Ukrainian option when getting "info" on the application? Is this a sign of something under development?

There is no Portugese there—and what is "fi"?

Curious.

[TETENAL]

Just "Get Info" on iTunes and the Info palette tells you which localizations are available. No need to search the bundle.

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by PER3

Very interesting, thanks.

But why does one see a Ukrainian option when getting "info" on the application? Is this a sign of something under development?

There is no Portugese there—and what is "fi"?

Curious.

I don't see any Ukrainian option when I do get info. fi is Finnish. And Portuguese is not actually present despite being represented in mkpg (the pt folders there are lacking the piece which actually generates the localization).

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

It is of course extremely unlikely that Apple would release OS X with a Russian (or any other new) localization before 10.5, i.e. next spring.

No, afaik 10.4 will be released in Russian. As I said, it's the first mid-cycle localization I have seen. But it takes a while to start with a localization from scratch. It's not like localizing Adium, you have to create a dictionary and stick to that dictionary.

Also, it's pretty much impossible to localize something from scratch when the underlying OS is still undergoing development. So no, it's not unlikely, because they are doing it

Originally Posted by PER3

Would you be able to explain what exactly is a "Tier 3" language?

Apple doesn't translate all of its software in all languages. The higher you go, the more software is available. I'm not sure what tier Russian is, but having the OS in that language is the absolute minimum.

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

No, afaik 10.4 will be released in Russian.

That will be a pleasant surprise then!

It seems like they should be able to add Greek without much trouble, since this is available in Greece already, and I've heard Arabic is well along.

[PER3]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

That will be a pleasant surprise then!

Sorry if I have not been clear, but 10.4.7 is already available in Russian. That's where my screenshots came from. It works fine, although the Help menu is in English. The surprise for me was iTunes 7, in which the Help menu is also localised, and as such is the real supported version.

My version comes from apple.ru, so while it is obviously an affiliated operation, it is not supported, hence the problems while updating.

The download link is in my first post.

PS Is it true from what I have heard that the Greek version costs money?

[PER3]

Just figured it out: OreoCookie was talking about the release of 10.5, not 10.4.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

That will be a pleasant surprise then!

It seems like they should be able to add Greek without much trouble, since this is available in Greece already, and I've heard Arabic is well along.

The Greek version of Mac OS X? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Only the Finder and the Control Panels are translated. Oh, and Address Book. Calculator is not, Mail is not, QuickTime is not, DVD Player is not, Terminal is not, None of the help is translated, etc. ALL of those (including the help) are translated in the Turkish version.

And Rainbow (the representatives in Greece) have the nerve to charge 50-75 euros MORE for their half-assed job (oh you do get 7 or 8 more Unicode fonts with Greek characters, too). The Turkish version is a full translation on the level of ANY Tier 1 language in OS X and it's a FREE DOWNLOAD!

Greeks have resorted to making their own translated version that's free and Open Source, that's much better than Rainbow's version. But even it has huge gaps in what's translated and what's not. (For instance, Mail is not translated).

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by PER3

Just figured it out: OreoCookie was talking about the release of 10.5, not 10.4.

No, I wasn't. I was indeed referring to 10.4 and not 10.5.
Perhaps Apple has decided to wait for a release of the official localization, perhaps they will use it as a basis for Leopard, I have no idea. But I know that 10.4 is being/has been localized and not 10.5.

I have no idea whether the version which is available for download on apple.ru is their handywork, but if it is, then it is an officially supported localization. However, the fact that the help is not localized indicates, the two are probably not one and the same.

[PER3]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

No, I wasn't. I was indeed referring to 10.4 and not 10.5.
Perhaps Apple has decided to wait for a release of the official localization, perhaps they will use it as a basis for Leopard, I have no idea. But I know that 10.4 is being/has been localized and not 10.5.

I have no idea whether the version which is available for download on apple.ru is their handywork, but if it is, then it is an officially supported localization. However, the fact that the help is not localized indicates, the two are probably not one and the same.

Interesting...

...but strange if there is no coordination between the teams doing the localisation. There have been localisations made over the last few years here sourced at apple.ru, and now there are Apple outlets–though no Apple Stores. What is going on?

On another note - one thing I would like to know, is, how many man-hours does it take to localise OS X? How much does it cost?

Of course, there are many fewer Mac users in Russia by percent than in Europe, but why is it that five million Finns have for ages had localisation versus one hundred and fifty million Russians that haven't?

Is there really such a low uptake of Macs in Russia? Evidently, there must be, but I would really like to see some figures.

Can anyone oblige?

[OreoCookie]

What do you mean by coordination? The work on Russian was started independently from scratch.

I cannot answer the other questions. Except that it's not a one-man job and takes specialists for many parts with experience.

[PER3]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

What do you mean by coordination? The work on Russian was started independently from scratch.

I cannot answer the other questions. Except that it's not a one-man job and takes specialists for many parts with experience.

What do I mean by "coordination"?

It is only an impression. Clearly, you are better informed, and I defer to your knowledge.

The reason that I perceived an incoordiation in the localisation of Russian was that sometimes, the updates were incomplete, sometimes they were combos (like the last one for 10.4.7), and sometimes, an official Apple update applied to a Russian system would bug it in some way.

That the Greek version was only available at a cost, and as Person Man suggests, was not complete, only adds to this impression.

The new iTunes 7 is not only Russified, but also has a Russified "Help" menu, which is a first.

Just to repeat, I'm not on the offensive, just trying to learn about the process.

[OreoCookie]

iTunes has a Russian help menu, because it is an official localization.
So my educated guess is that the Russian OS X localization is not an official localization and as such I don't know what will happen if you install an official localization on top of it.

`Coordination' means that Russian was started from scratch way after the release of OS X -- which was a business decision by Apple. I have no idea why it was missing or why they have decided to include it. But my guess is that if Apple decides to add Russian permanently to its supported languages, it will appear in OS X 10.5 alongside all the other languages as well, `in sync' if that's what you want to call it.